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bijou
11-10-2011, 10:51 AM
A Marine found dead in his barracks room at Camp Pendleton early Sunday was beaten to death, a spokesman for the investigating agency said Tuesday.

Ed Buice of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service said Lance Cpl. Mario Arias Jr. died from injuries he suffered at the hands of another Marine sometime late Saturday night or shortly after midnight. That Marine then jumped from a third-floor balcony of the barracks and suffered what Buice described as "significant" injuries.

Read more: http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/military/military-authorities-say-marine-was-beaten-to-death-by-fellow/article_aedc2deb-f5e7-51ad-b4b5-9f00d68f0df0.html#ixzz1dJY1HucL

Tipsycatlover
11-10-2011, 11:51 AM
It's a definite change in the culture of the military.

One the democrats have been working on for awhile.

djones520
11-10-2011, 01:08 PM
They believe that L. Cpl. Arias was trying to speak to the other Marine about his drinking problem, when he snapped beat him to death, then tried to commit suicide.

A tragic thing really.

DumbAss Tanker
11-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Individually tragic, but crime is a fact of life anywhere. Military people are people first, not plaster saints to borrow Kipling's phrase. There are good and bad people in all times and forces.

Good, bad, and ugly in everything but the Air Force, they don't allow ugly.

Kay
11-10-2011, 09:49 PM
Very sad. My heart goes out to both their families.

Odysseus
11-11-2011, 01:15 AM
Individually tragic, but crime is a fact of life anywhere. Military people are people first, not plaster saints to borrow Kipling's phrase. There are good and bad people in all times and forces.

Good, bad, and ugly in everything but the Air Force, they don't allow ugly.

QFT

This isn't political, just tragic.

Tipsycatlover
11-11-2011, 10:17 AM
I guess the training in the military isn't what it used to be. There's no "brotherhood" and precious little identification of problems that might come up.

The military is just beginning to approach the edges of losing control.

Novaheart
11-11-2011, 11:05 AM
It's a definite change in the culture of the military.

One the democrats have been working on for awhile.


I guess the training in the military isn't what it used to be. There's no "brotherhood" and precious little identification of problems that might come up.

The military is just beginning to approach the edges of losing control.

Have you any foundation whatsoever for your analysis?

Tipsycatlover
11-11-2011, 10:33 PM
Have you any foundation whatsoever for your analysis?

It should be quite obvious just from the events.

How long would a problem drinker be tolerated in the military just a few years ago? Do you really think that no one knew?

The culture of the miitary is changing, much is tolerated now that wouldn't have lasted five minutes even just a few years ago. It is part of the general degeneracy of the entire culture.

Apache
11-11-2011, 10:49 PM
Have you any foundation whatsoever for your analysis?

OH STFU! You know it's happening! Stop pretending you have no clue....

Odysseus
11-11-2011, 11:12 PM
It should be quite obvious just from the events.

How long would a problem drinker be tolerated in the military just a few years ago? Do you really think that no one knew?

The culture of the miitary is changing, much is tolerated now that wouldn't have lasted five minutes even just a few years ago. It is part of the general degeneracy of the entire culture.

Actually, we're a lot more serious about problem drinkers now than we used to be. Twenty years ago, nobody would have said anything and he would've ended up stepping on his personal appendage and getting tossed for something that he did while under the influence. Today, the policy is that we are expected to talk to each other and identify this kind of problem and either report it or get the guy to the right people to help. This isn't about the erosion of standards, but about one Marine losing it when he was confronted by a buddy, who was doing the right thing.

Tipsycatlover
11-12-2011, 09:46 AM
As you say, 20 years ago he would have been tossed for something he did while under the influence. Now such misreants have rights, it's best to ignore actions or "get help" for them rather than simply toss them out. Or, as I recall from my husband's stories of the Navy, a few guys would teach him a valuable lesson.

djones520
11-12-2011, 11:41 AM
As you say, 20 years ago he would have been tossed for something he did while under the influence. Now such misreants have rights, it's best to ignore actions or "get help" for them rather than simply toss them out. Or, as I recall from my husband's stories of the Navy, a few guys would teach him a valuable lesson.

What he is saying is that in todays military we try to get them help, before they do actions that will get them "tossed out".

We don't leave our brothers and sisters in arms to the wolves. Sometimes people will be people and just cannot be helped, but we will try anyways.

Odysseus
11-12-2011, 06:27 PM
As you say, 20 years ago he would have been tossed for something he did while under the influence. Now such misreants have rights, it's best to ignore actions or "get help" for them rather than simply toss them out. Or, as I recall from my husband's stories of the Navy, a few guys would teach him a valuable lesson.


What he is saying is that in todays military we try to get them help, before they do actions that will get them "tossed out".

We don't leave our brothers and sisters in arms to the wolves. Sometimes people will be people and just cannot be helped, but we will try anyways.

Exactly. And, the action that would have gotten him tossed out would have been something serious, like a DUI, or an assault. We try to intervene before it gets that far, so that we can salvage the Soldier (or Marine, in this case), rather than let them self-destruct.

A lot of the changes over the years have been to the detriment of the service, but this isn't one of them.

Tipsycatlover
11-12-2011, 06:41 PM
Oh so it's just indulging them in the guise of getting help. This is pretty much what I mean. Of course I remember the days of shape up or ship out. They can self-destruct, just outside of the military.

It's like the schools who try to save the student by getting them help. It didn't take long for the schools to become nurseries. I'm sorry to see it happen to the military too. And really sorry that someone had to die over it.

djones520
11-12-2011, 08:46 PM
Oh so it's just indulging them in the guise of getting help. This is pretty much what I mean. Of course I remember the days of shape up or ship out. They can self-destruct, just outside of the military.

It's like the schools who try to save the student by getting them help. It didn't take long for the schools to become nurseries. I'm sorry to see it happen to the military too. And really sorry that someone had to die over it.

Tipsy, take this as an official warning. Your borderline on violating some rules. As an NCO, I've found your remarks on this matter insulting. As a Mod, I'm telling you to leave it be.

SarasotaRepub
11-12-2011, 09:49 PM
Take it down a few notches everyone.

Odysseus
11-13-2011, 01:04 AM
Oh so it's just indulging them in the guise of getting help. This is pretty much what I mean. Of course I remember the days of shape up or ship out. They can self-destruct, just outside of the military.

It's like the schools who try to save the student by getting them help. It didn't take long for the schools to become nurseries. I'm sorry to see it happen to the military too. And really sorry that someone had to die over it.

Tipsy, it's not a case of indulging them. It's a case of stopping the behavior before it gets out of control and saving the lives of the troops that we are responsible for.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 09:04 AM
Tipsy, take this as an official warning. Your borderline on violating some rules. As an NCO, I've found your remarks on this matter insulting. As a Mod, I'm telling you to leave it be.

Okay!

Rockntractor
11-13-2011, 10:44 AM
Tipsy, take this as an official warning. Your borderline on violating some rules. As an NCO, I've found your remarks on this matter insulting. As a Mod, I'm telling you to leave it be.

I see no rule broken or even skirted, have we come to the point where you can't even give an honest opinion about a military matter without threat of banning.
I happen to agree with Ody's assessment but I see nothing wrong with tipsy being allowed to state her point of view. That is my official point of view as a mod and I find this matter very insulting!
In sentiment and intent I have agreed with giving the military extra support on this board and have banned people for what I felt were clear violations of the respect rule, but the parameters are unclear and subjective and this two teer membership arrangement is to easy to abuse, when you disagree with a military member that is not disrespecting them. This sort of enforcement squelches open discussion and doesn't help either side.
Personally as a mod I will be giving a lot more thought when and if I enforce this rule again, I have seen what this looks like from the other side and have been reminded by this.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 11:29 AM
Ohhhhh

I strongly support the military! Just not all the changes that are being imposed on the military. Putting the support and "saving" of individual military members from their own failings above the needs of the military is not one of those changes I agree with. It wasn't always like this as older military members will recognize.

However if this is breaking the rules, I am happy to not do it anymore.

Kay
11-13-2011, 11:47 AM
I agree with Rock. Tipsy did say that her husband had been in the Navy.
So I think that gives her a bit of insight from a military spouse's point of
view. Agree with her or not, she was just stating her opinions. I didn't
feel she broke any rules. We all see the issue through the prism of our
own experiences and her perspective is what it is. I've enjoyed hearing
her opinions. Ody and djones both were doing a good job explaining
from the inside point of view up until post 16. I think you over-reacted
there just a tad djones.

The best post on this whole deal was this:

Individually tragic, but crime is a fact of life anywhere.
There are good and bad people in all times and forces.

Odysseus
11-13-2011, 12:07 PM
Ohhhhh

I strongly support the military! Just not all the changes that are being imposed on the military. Putting the support and "saving" of individual military members from their own failings above the needs of the military is not one of those changes I agree with. It wasn't always like this as older military members will recognize.

However if this is breaking the rules, I am happy to not do it anymore.
It's not a case of saving them from their own failings, it's a case of salvaging people that we have invested time and training in. Not to mention the fact that when they put on the uniform, they become part of our family. Before you'd kick a brother to the curb, you'd do everything that you could to fix him. It's the same with us. We don't abandon our own when they stumble.

I see no rule broken or even skirted, have we come to the point where you can't even give an honest opinion about a military matter without threat of banning.
I happen to agree with Ody's assessment but I see nothing wrong with tipsy being allowed to state her point of view. That is my official point of view as a mod and I find this matter very insulting!
In sentiment and intent I have agreed with giving the military extra support on this board and have banned people for what I felt were clear violations of the respect rule, but the parameters are unclear and subjective and this two teer membership arrangement is to easy to abuse, when you disagree with a military member that is not disrespecting them. This sort of enforcement squelches open discussion and doesn't help either side.
Personally as a mod I will be giving a lot more thought when and if I enforce this rule again, I have seen what this looks like from the other side and have been reminded by this.

Concur.

Witmaster
11-13-2011, 12:19 PM
Ohhhhh

I strongly support the military! Just not all the changes that are being imposed on the military. Putting the support and "saving" of individual military members from their own failings above the needs of the military is not one of those changes I agree with. It wasn't always like this as older military members will recognize.

However if this is breaking the rules, I am happy to not do it anymore.

I'm pretty thick skinned. You can "break the rules" on me. I won't file a grievance.

Once you've had a 1200 pound VBIED blow up next to your bedroom, you tend to not get worked up so easily.

Of course... i wouldn't recommend this sort of "therapy" to anyone.

Witmaster
11-13-2011, 12:30 PM
I guess the training in the military isn't what it used to be. There's no "brotherhood" and precious little identification of problems that might come up.

The military is just beginning to approach the edges of losing control.Now.... Back on topic.

I can certainly see how you might come to this conclusion in this particular incident, however, lumping the military as a whole and castigating the training programs of the military is jumping to an unjustified and forgone conclusion.

I think what we have here is a tragic oversight. The military has really evolved (as a whole) over the years in becoming more attentive to service member's psychological and emotional needs. We receive continuous training on suicide awareness and how to identify those "signals" of impending self-destructive behavior. Obviously, in this case, something was amiss and things reached critical mass.

As far as "Brotherhood" (and let's not forget "sisterhood for that matter), I can assure you it is alive and well.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 01:01 PM
At my own risk I shall respond.

The sense of brotherhood did not extend to the marine who beat another to death did it?

My experience with the military is at least 40 years old so it was your father's or grandfather's military. In my husband's day, a problem drinker would be dealt with on liberty in an alley someplace by a few shipmates then tossed out with a dishonorable discharge for starting the fight. Not everyone is worthy of wearing that uniform. This incident did not happen in a vacuum. This drunk has been a problem before, for a long time, which is why the dead marine tried to talk to him about it. Why? Why was this kid even in the position of addressing an obvious problem? If it was that obvious, why hasn't a superior addressed it long before it came to murder. How much was done, if anything, to salvage a violence prone drunk before he killed someone? The big question is was the killer being "salvaged" when he killed his "brother" marine? Stopping this murder wouldn't be providing counseling and antabuse, it would be getting him out of the miitary because he is unfit. He didn't stumble. He was unfit from the very beginning. Cut your losses and invest training in someone worth it. Like the marine who is now dead!

Leaving the military out of it for a while, these policies have been implemented in many other organizations. Police departments, schools, universities, eventually these organizations become simply social service organizations. The responsibility for behavior lies with the organization for not being responsive enough. For instance, take this hypothetical. I am the wife of the marine who beat another to death. You as his commander are responsible. You didn't identify his problem soon enough, get him help or the right kind of help, and if you did, it wasn't fast enough. Because of your failure, I am going to sue you personally and the marines for your failure in providing help to my poor sot of a husband. Everything that happened is a direct and proximate cause of YOUR dereliction including my poor victim of a husband jumping off a roof.

I fully understand what you are saying. The way it should work, marines standing shoulder to shoulder together. It used to work that way. I remember when it did. I remember when the police worked, when schools educated. I remember when universities expelled! Now all of these institutions have degenerated because their primary objectives were incrementally replaced by social serviceism.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 01:23 PM
Now.... Back on topic.

I can certainly see how you might come to this conclusion in this particular incident, however, lumping the military as a whole and castigating the training programs of the military is jumping to an unjustified and forgone conclusion.

I think what we have here is a tragic oversight. The military has really evolved (as a whole) over the years in becoming more attentive to service member's psychological and emotional needs. We receive continuous training on suicide awareness and how to identify those "signals" of impending self-destructive behavior. Obviously, in this case, something was amiss and things reached critical mass.

As far as "Brotherhood" (and let's not forget "sisterhood for that matter), I can assure you it is alive and well.

Assuming what you say is true and I have no reason to disbelieve a word of it, what happens should we encounter a force whose service members do not have psychological or emotional needs that have to be seen to by the organization? Or, the organization itself does not tolerate self-destructive behavior within its ranks. What is the purpose of the American military today? That's what I'm asking, Is it to defend the nation or see to the psychological and emotional needs of the individual members? I guarantee you that there is a line, so how close are we to crossing it.

Kay
11-13-2011, 01:30 PM
I can't say I agree with you Tipsy. You have no idea what was in that
Marine's head or what kind of history he has. It could be that he was
a model Marine right up until this happened.

Witmaster
11-13-2011, 01:45 PM
At my own risk I shall respond.

The sense of brotherhood did not extend to the marine who beat another to death did it?

Absolutely not.


My experience with the military is at least 40 years old so it was your father's or grandfather's military. In my husband's day, a problem drinker would be dealt with on liberty in an alley someplace by a few shipmates then tossed out with a dishonorable discharge for starting the fight.

My experience (although only 23 years worth) is similar with a few exceptions. Sure, "problem drinkers" could very well get their asses kicked and thrown out on the street. But somewhere along the way, people began to realize that (in most cases) excessive drinking was a symptom of a greater issue. Simply kicking a guys ass and throwing him out of service doesn't solve the problem, it just transfers it to someone else. The military receives constant bombardment and criticism for expelling service members back into society under the presumption that we "ignore the problem". PTSD is a serious issue. We're only scratching the surface of its depth and severity... but we are making progress.


Not everyone is worthy of wearing that uniform.

Absolutely right.


This incident did not happen in a vacuum. This drunk has been a problem before, for a long time, which is why the dead marine tried to talk to him about it. Why? Why was this kid even in the position of addressing an obvious problem? If it was that obvious, why hasn't a superior addressed it long before it came to murder. How much was done, if anything, to salvage a violence prone drunk before he killed someone?

I honestly don't know.


The big question is was the killer being "salvaged" when he killed his "brother" marine? Stopping this murder wouldn't be providing counseling and antabuse, it would be getting him out of the miitary because he is unfit. He didn't stumble. He was unfit from the very beginning. Cut your losses and invest training in someone worth it. Like the marine who is now dead!

There is no question, nor is anyone disputing that this guy needed serious help. But throwing this "killer" out into the street would not have changed him. He'd still be the same guy, possibly your neighbor or mine. As it stands, he committed murder... he killed a fellow Marine. And now he will be held accountable for his actions. At least we hope so.


Leaving the military out of it for a while, these policies have been implemented in many other organizations. Police departments, schools, universities, eventually these organizations become simply social service organizations. The responsibility for behavior lies with the organization for not being responsive enough. For instance, take this hypothetical. I am the wife of the marine who beat another to death. You as his commander are responsible. You didn't identify his problem soon enough, get him help or the right kind of help, and if you did, it wasn't fast enough. Because of your failure, I am going to sue you personally and the marines for your failure in providing help to my poor sot of a husband. Everything that happened is a direct and proximate cause of YOUR dereliction including my poor victim of a husband jumping off a roof.

Fair enough, but I think your conclusions are based solely on assumptions at this point. We honestly don't know what transpired with the Marine or his command prior to this event. What I can tell you is that individual accountability and responsibility is (in my opinion) the issue here. It's entirely possible that his fellow marines were covering for his behavior. I've seen that happen. Again, all we have at this point are assumptions. Not all the facts.


I fully understand what you are saying. The way it should work, marines standing shoulder to shoulder together. It used to work that way. I remember when it did. I remember when the police worked, when schools educated. I remember when universities expelled! Now all of these institutions have degenerated because their primary objectives were incrementally replaced by social serviceism.

And I fully understand what you are saying. My exception is your broad-brushed perception that the entire military has somehow abandoned all sense of brotherhood. I can assure you it has not. I agree, we've gone way off the reservation in many respects when it comes to sensitivity training and social lifestyle agendas. But as a whole, I can tell you it's not as hopeless as you may think.

I believe this was an isolated case, not an indication of a systemic decline in military discipline. Sure, our culture has changed, but our values are still solid. This guy acted independently and on his own accord. He'll be held accountable for it and hopefully made an example of. However, until we know the facts, all we can do is "guess" at the rest.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 01:45 PM
I can't say I agree with you Tipsy. You have no idea what was in that
Marine's head or what kind of history he has. It could be that he was
a model Marine right up until this happened.

It's pretty obvious that this isn't the case. The reason why the dead marine is dead is because he confronted his killer over his drinking. That' pretty much does away with a theory that he was a model marine right up until this happened. If he was a model marine, there would have been no confrontation.

I went to look up this case, and lo and behold, found yet another one.

http://www.jdnews.com/articles/loved-69709-marine-family.html

In THIS case, the marine accused of killing his brother marine was previously involved in an assault. What happened to the counseling? The counseling is there. It is doing it's job. Then the system falls down because the killers aren't removed!

I guarantee you that if a marine assaulted some Afghan terrorist he'd be out on his behind faster than you could say "brotherhood of the corps".

Kay
11-13-2011, 02:01 PM
It's pretty obvious that this isn't the case. The reason why the dead marine is dead is because he confronted his killer over his drinking. That' pretty much does away with a theory that he was a model marine right up until this happened.

What his superiors saw and what his bunk mates saw maybe two different things.
Both of the Marines involved were still in training schools, so neither had much of
a history actually, other than making it through boot camp. I think you are taking
the liberty of too many assumptions here and as the Witmaster said, you are trying
to paint the whole military with too broad a brushstroke.

So what you're saying is you think it was better back in the 'good old days' when
they just took them out in an alley and beat the shit out of them, instead of trying
to help each other?

Witmaster
11-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Assuming what you say is true and I have no reason to disbelieve a word of it, what happens should we encounter a force whose service members do not have psychological or emotional needs that have to be seen to by the organization? Or, the organization itself does not tolerate self-destructive behavior within its ranks. What is the purpose of the American military today? That's what I'm asking, Is it to defend the nation or see to the psychological and emotional needs of the individual members? I guarantee you that there is a line, so how close are we to crossing it.

1. Well.... the Taliban comes to mind. They don't seem too interested in emotional needs of thier own, however, it's difficult to understand an enemy that doesn't consider "suicide bombongs" as "self-destructive behavior".

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 02:08 PM
Absolutely not.



My experience (although only 23 years worth) is similar with a few exceptions. Sure, "problem drinkers" could very well get their asses kicked and thrown out on the street. But somewhere along the way, people began to realize that (in most cases) excessive drinking was a symptom of a greater issue. Simply kicking a guys ass and throwing him out of service doesn't solve the problem, it just transfers it to someone else. The military receives constant bombardment and criticism for expelling service members back into society under the presumption that we "ignore the problem". PTSD is a serious issue. We're only scratching the surface of its depth and severity... but we are making progress.



Absolutely right.



I honestly don't know.



There is no question, nor is anyone disputing that this guy needed serious help. But throwing this "killer" out into the street would not have changed him. He'd still be the same guy, possibly your neighbor or mine. As it stands, he committed murder... he killed a fellow Marine. And now he will be held accountable for his actions. At least we hope so.



Fair enough, but I think your conclusions are based solely on assumptions at this point. We honestly don't know what transpired with the Marine or his command prior to this event. What I can tell you is that individual accountability and responsibility is (in my opinion) the issue here. It's entirely possible that his fellow marines were covering for his behavior. I've seen that happen. Again, all we have at this point are assumptions. Not all the facts.



And I fully understand what you are saying. My exception is your broad-brushed perception that the entire military has somehow abandoned all sense of brotherhood. I can assure you it has not. I agree, we've gone way off the reservation in many respects when it comes to sensitivity training and social lifestyle agendas. But as a whole, I can tell you it's not as hopeless as you may think.

I believe this was an isolated case, not an indication of a systemic decline in military discipline. Sure, our culture has changed, but our values are still solid. This guy acted independently and on his own accord. He'll be held accountable for it and hopefully made an example of. However, until we know the facts, all we can do is "guess" at the rest.

I never said that the military has abandoned all sense of brotherhood. What I said was that I see, as in observe and identify, the same systemic process in the military that has been so destructive to institutions other than the military. As you say, throwing him out of the miitary would not have changed him, would have just kicked the can into another yard so to speak, is the job of the military to effect these kinds of changes? It has not historically been so. Is it wise to give the military this kind of social responsibility. Is it going to make them better, or more effective at doing what they are supposed to be doing which is defending the country? We're supposed to have the best of the best! Not the best we can counsel the deranged into. Given that it isn't as hopeless as I might think, and I'll gladly give you that one. Following the current course of actions, how long before it gets that hopeless? It took the LAPD only about 20 years to give up the streets to the gangs and become a really big social service agency. That was using the very same processes now being turned onto the military.

It isn't the military that has the problem, it's what's being done TO the military that is so destructive. Leave the military alone, it would be just fine, with the appropriate level of discipline and behavior if left to the commanders instead of politicians and counselors.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 02:11 PM
1. Well.... the Taliban comes to mind. They don't seem too interested in emotional needs of thier own, however, it's difficult to understand an enemy that doesn't consider "suicide bombongs" as "self-destructive behavior".

THAT was my point all along! Thank you for getting it. I didn't want to come right out and say the Taliban or the Taliban like!

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 02:14 PM
What his superiors saw and what his bunk mates saw maybe two different things.
Both of the Marines involved were still in training schools, so neither had much of
a history actually, other than making it through boot camp. I think you are taking
the liberty of too many assumptions here and as the Witmaster said, you are trying
to paint the whole military with too broad a brushstroke.

So what you're saying is you think it was better back in the 'good old days' when
they just took them out in an alley and beat the shit out of them, instead of trying
to help each other?

Pretty much, yeah! That's exactly what I meant. That WAS helping each other! It was teaching a lesson.

Witmaster
11-13-2011, 02:22 PM
THAT was my point all along! Thank you for getting it. I didn't want to come right out and say the Taliban or the Taliban like!

Well... you asked "what happens when..."

I'll tell you what happens... we kick the ever-lovin-shit out of them. Every time.

On a personall note: I wept uncontrollably the day I carried my dead friend off of the battlefield. If being "emotional" somehow disqualifies me to face an enemy who displays no emotion at all, then apparently I'm in the wrong line of work.

Kay
11-13-2011, 02:36 PM
Well... you asked "what happens when..."

I'll tell you what happens... we kick the ever-lovin-shit out of them. Every time.

On a personall note: I wept uncontrollably the day I carried my dead friend off of the battlefield. If being "emotional" somehow disqualifies me to face an enemy who displays no emotion at all, then apparently I'm in the wrong line of work.

Because we do place the highest value on the life and well being of every single individual.
That is exactly what gives our military superiority over all others.

Kay
11-13-2011, 02:45 PM
Pretty much, yeah! That's exactly what I meant. That WAS helping each other! It was teaching a lesson.

You're starting to sound like someone that might abuse children.
You do realize that most of these kids with the drinking problems
in the military are in the 18-20 range, barely dry behind the ears.
Beating them "to teach a lesson" sounds kinda Russianesque to me.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 02:48 PM
My Dad passed away last April, as a WWII vet he was buried with full military honors. Among his effects was a small journal that he recorded his war year experiences. He was with the force that stormed Normandie beach. He wrote of that day that boats were going up and down along the shore picking up bodies and parts of bodies. That's all. The sum total of what he went through. If he cried, he didn't say so, nor did he ever. He never spoke about this years during the war. Not a word.

I have personally known gang members that would cry like a baby, right before they slit your gullet open. Then laugh about it.

While it is absolutely true that we kick the shit out of the Taliban and anyone remotely like the Taliban every time, given the changes taking place, how long will we be able to continue doing that? There is nothing truthfully said that could take away from the bravery of our miitary. Today. Now. These changes aren't great ones, they are small ones, designed to effect changes incrementally building on one another so that over time, the military will be as effective as any other of our major institutions. There are these kinds of changes, the disastrous changes in the Rules of Engagement, and even opening the military to open homosexuals with the attendant psychological counseling that will mean that will change our mighty military into someone else all together. In 20 years given the current course you won't recognize our military, if we even have one. If someone is in need of psychological counseling, they should get it. No doubt about that. If someone has a drinking problem, drug problem, or beats their wives, they should get all the help they need. Which does not mean that the miitary should be responsible for providing those kinds of social services.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 02:51 PM
You're starting to sound like someone that might abuse children.
You do realize that most of these kids with the drinking problems
in the military are in the 18-20 range, barely dry behind the ears.
Beating them "to teach a lesson" sounds kinda Russianesque to me.

It worked quite well though didn't it? Having their peers show them right from wrong worked very well. Much better and faster than a few years of counseling. If you are concerned that 18 and 19 year olds should not be subject to child abuse, maybe the military isn't the right place for such children.

Kay
11-13-2011, 02:56 PM
Back to the original story, what I speculate happened is that the one guy
went out on a Saturday night, stumbles in drunk. His roommate starts
trying to lecture him about it, the drunk guy gets mad and they go to blows.
The drunk not realizing it goes too far, then suddenly sees that he's killed
his friend. The realization of that is too much, so he goes up and hurls
himself off the 3rd floor trying to commit suicide over what he just did.

The dead guy graduated high school in 2010. So he's only about 19 and
I'm assuming that the other guy was about the same age. This is something
you might expect in a college frat house. I think it's just a tragedy all the
way around, but something no one could have prepared for or seen coming.

Tipsycatlover
11-13-2011, 02:59 PM
Well, if the marines are now nothing more than a college frat house, I'd have to agree with you.

Witmaster
11-13-2011, 03:27 PM
If someone has a drinking problem, drug problem, or beats their wives, they should get all the help they need. Which does not mean that the miitary should be responsible for providing those kinds of social services.

Alas, a great number of veteran's may disagree with you.

After Vietnam, thousands of disturbed and psychologically tortured veterans were essentially "dumped" back into society. Many were addicted to drugs, alcohol and whatever else they could grab hold of to subside their emotional anguish.

I'm sure you realize there is a reason why your father never spoke of his experiences at Normandy. Most veterans who have witnessed the unbridled violence of war share the same sentiments.

Not all people have the same "coping" skills to overcome such trauma. Some find alcohol as a crutch at first... then evolve into dependency. Some need help. Rather than continuing the tradition of "shit-canning" troubled and struggling veterans back into society. The military took ownership of their own, developed programs to assist those in need and that's a good thing. Yes, we (the military) have a responsibility to help our own... even at thier worst.

In the case of this marine who murdered his fellow marine, I really can't believe that his problem was caused by "Combat Stress" or "PTSD". He simply wasn't in long enough to have experienced such things. However, to jump to the conclusion that the entire system is spiraling downward into some sort of emasculated social cesspool is a bit premature.

But here we have the conundrum...

On the one hand, your argument would be to kick his ass and throw him out of the military, On the other hand, who is to say he wouldn't have just killed someone else? Either way... the Military gets blamed.

Like I said previously, we simply don't know enough facts to support any conclusion. All we know is that one marine is tragically dead at the hands of another marine's alcohol-fueled rage.

Everything else at this point is pure speculation.

CueSi
11-14-2011, 01:40 AM
Back to the original story, what I speculate happened is that the one guy
went out on a Saturday night, stumbles in drunk. His roommate starts
trying to lecture him about it, the drunk guy gets mad and they go to blows.
The drunk not realizing it goes too far, then suddenly sees that he's killed
his friend. The realization of that is too much, so he goes up and hurls
himself off the 3rd floor trying to commit suicide over what he just did.

The dead guy graduated high school in 2010. So he's only about 19 and
I'm assuming that the other guy was about the same age. This is something
you might expect in a college frat house. I think it's just a tragedy all the
way around, but something no one could have prepared for or seen coming.

Ya ain't lying here. . . this is what's common to a lot of college age kids. I admire the friend for trying to hold his fellow Marine accountable. That's what you're supposed to do, from what I'm told.

Shame it all went to hell. :(

~QC

Tipsycatlover
11-14-2011, 09:03 AM
Alas, a great number of veteran's may disagree with you.

After Vietnam, thousands of disturbed and psychologically tortured veterans were essentially "dumped" back into society. Many were addicted to drugs, alcohol and whatever else they could grab hold of to subside their emotional anguish.

I'm sure you realize there is a reason why your father never spoke of his experiences at Normandy. Most veterans who have witnessed the unbridled violence of war share the same sentiments.

Not all people have the same "coping" skills to overcome such trauma. Some find alcohol as a crutch at first... then evolve into dependency. Some need help. Rather than continuing the tradition of "shit-canning" troubled and struggling veterans back into society. The military took ownership of their own, developed programs to assist those in need and that's a good thing. Yes, we (the military) have a responsibility to help our own... even at thier worst.

In the case of this marine who murdered his fellow marine, I really can't believe that his problem was caused by "Combat Stress" or "PTSD". He simply wasn't in long enough to have experienced such things. However, to jump to the conclusion that the entire system is spiraling downward into some sort of emasculated social cesspool is a bit premature.

But here we have the conundrum...

On the one hand, your argument would be to kick his ass and throw him out of the military, On the other hand, who is to say he wouldn't have just killed someone else? Either way... the Military gets blamed.

Like I said previously, we simply don't know enough facts to support any conclusion. All we know is that one marine is tragically dead at the hands of another marine's alcohol-fueled rage.

Everything else at this point is pure speculation.

Of course the military would be blamed! We now have a culture in which the individual is never at fault no matter what they do.

Perpetuating that is never going to be a good thing.


Viet Nam is my era. I have know many MANY Viet vets. SOME of them had my sympathy, but not many.

Witmaster
11-14-2011, 09:49 AM
Of course the military would be blamed! We now have a culture in which the individual is never at fault no matter what they do.

Perpetuating that is never going to be a good thing.


Viet Nam is my era. I have know many MANY Viet vets. SOME of them had my sympathy, but not many.

Wow.... I bet they lay awake at night just thanking thier lucky stars they made the "cut".

Tipsycatlover
11-14-2011, 10:56 AM
Wow.... I bet they lay awake at night just thanking thier lucky stars they made the "cut".

Considering the circumstances at the time, many probably DID! Or, cursed the day they didn't. I have known, though, some who were truly noble men who never let their experiences be an excuse for being an asshole. You just gotta admire men like that. They make you a better persoin just for having made their acquaintence.

Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you understand? Men who are so strong that nothing can possibly keep them down, give them an excuse for cruelty, hide in a pit of addiction. They are the men that historically have carved civilizations out of wilderness, fought for right and crushed wrong. Endured horribly injuries, lost limbs. Then gone about their lives as if it was no big deal really.

What magnificent men they are! I just don't know if there is a political will (anymore) to cultivate that spirit in the military.

Witmaster
11-14-2011, 11:14 AM
Considering the circumstances at the time, many probably DID! Or, cursed the day they didn't. I have known, though, some who were truly noble men who never let their experiences be an excuse for being an asshole. You just gotta admire men like that. They make you a better persoin just for having made their acquaintence.

Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you understand? Men who are so strong that nothing can possibly keep them down, give them an excuse for cruelty, hide in a pit of addiction. They are the men that historically have carved civilizations out of wilderness, fought for right and crushed wrong. Endured horribly injuries, lost limbs. Then gone about their lives as if it was no big deal really.

What magnificent men they are! I just don't know if there is a political will (anymore) to cultivate that spirit in the military.
Probably one of the most narcissistic statements I’ve ever read.


That spirit is there, and always has been. But from what I've read... you'll never see it.

Kay
11-14-2011, 11:19 AM
Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you understand?

Do you have any idea who you are talking to in here?
Witmaster is over there living what you are professing to be an expert on.

Witmaster
11-14-2011, 11:38 AM
Do you have any idea who you are talking to in here?
Witmaster is over there living what you are professing to be an expert on.
It's Ok, Kay. This world is full of Armchair quarterbacks. We get it all the time.

I would wager that there are very few people on this board who can truly identify with what I mentioned to you... but, that's OK. I thank God in heaven that most people don't have to. That's our calling. And despite however "weak" we may seem to others, we who have tasted this salt know the truth.

I don't concern myself with meeting the "approval" of critics. All that really matters to me is that I'm there for my guys in their time of need. Whether it is here on the battlefield, back home in the midst of struggle, or anywhere in between. I know they'd do the same for me. That's what bonds us tighter than any bystander could ever understand.

If one of my guys struggles and slips into dispair because of the horror and trauma he/she has seen. I understand and I'll do everything in my power to help them.

Odysseus
11-14-2011, 12:41 PM
It's Ok, Kay. This world is full of Armchair quarterbacks. We get it all the time.

I would wager that there are very few people on this board who can truly identify with what I mentioned to you... but, that's OK. I thank God in heaven that most people don't have to. That's our calling. And despite however "weak" we may seem to others, we who have tasted this salt know the truth.

I don't concern myself with meeting the "approval" of critics. All that really matters to me is that I'm there for my guys in their time of need. Whether it is here on the battlefield, back home in the midst of struggle, or anywhere in between. I know they'd do the same for me. That's what bonds us tighter than any bystander could ever understand.

If one of my guys struggles and slips into dispair because of the horror and trauma he/she has seen. I understand and I'll do everything in my power to help them.

You'd be surprised. There are a lot of vets here, not to mention supporters and family members, not to mention the active duty among us. But, we also get our share of completely ignorant tools who only know us through the media, stereotypes that they picked up from leftist professors and the like. Speaking of which, have you read any of Wei Wu Wei's posts?

Witmaster
11-14-2011, 12:54 PM
You'd be surprised. There are a lot of vets here, not to mention supporters and family members, not to mention the active duty among us. But, we also get our share of completely ignorant tools who only know us through the media, stereotypes that they picked up from leftist professors and the like. Speaking of which, have you read any of Wei Wu Wei's posts?

:rotfl:

Yes Sir, I have. And thank you.

Tipsycatlover
11-14-2011, 09:23 PM
Do you have any idea who you are talking to in here?
Witmaster is over there living what you are professing to be an expert on.

While I would never pretend to be an expert on military matters, I have certainly encountered enough whiney weak "vets" who used their time in the service to excuse all manner of objectionable activities. After all John Kerry whined for years about his service record that was what? Four months?

Perhaps it is just that I have seen an aspect of such ex military men that you haven't. Or seen them in a different setting. Under different circumstances. They tried excusing their wrongdoing with a string of excuses and quite simply, I wasn't in the mood to buy it. They beat their wives, abuse their children, kick the dog, take drugs, are alcoholics, "can't" work. When their kids are taken away, their wives tire of being "understanding" and leave, these fools have an endless list of excuses. I got flashbacks. I got PTSD. I gotta self medicate my doc won't give me anything. The world owes me coddling for the rest of my life and my wife and kids should stay and take those beatings because DAMMIT I"m SICK! And by the way, I got a string of illnesses and can't work so the bitch better get her ass out and earn a living cause all I got is piss poor disability. You HAVE to work with me! And, the poor sots haven't worn a uniform in 20 years!

Nope, not gonna happen.

I do however, greatly admire the men who stand up. I've known quite a few. Probably Witmaster is just such a man himself. Certainly Odysseus is from what I can see. There are men who are worthy of respect because of deeds in and out of the service and those who are not. We can indulge them or enable them to be worse than they are. Or not. Send them on their way. Join a support group.

Tipsycatlover
11-14-2011, 10:01 PM
Probably one of the most narcissistic statements Iíve ever read.


That spirit is there, and always has been. But from what I've read... you'll never see it.

Ahhh well I have always been unduly taken with my own accomplishments! Even as long ago as they were!

The spirit is there and I have seen it. That was not my comment. My comment was that there is no more political will to nurture that spirit. You can't see that I'm on your side can you? My objections to the current military arrangement, and one that most likely as in quite likely, led to the altercation that led to this boys death, is that the military minds who run the military and are necessary to run the military are being replaced by politicians and psychologists to the detriment of everyone.

If you want an example of what I mean, it would be Allen West, who said he would walk through hell carrying a can of gasoline for his men. Wouldn't you? Isn't that the way you feel? What did the politicians and the psychologists do to him? What did they want to do to him?

This has happened before, in our police departments, so we already know it doesn't work.

Witmaster
11-15-2011, 12:55 PM
And my comment was regarding your statement that any vietnam war veteran should in some way be "grateful" that they "earned your sympathy”.

Sure, I’ve seen those individuals who abuse the system. Individuals who have learned how to manipulate the “rules” in order to claim benefits they may not truly need. I’ve seen soldiers who play the “victim” card to justify their poor behavior and lack of self responsibility.

Look, I get what you're saying, but it’s apparent that you have encountered so many veterans who [apparently] abuse the system and use their “experiences” as a platform to justify unacceptable behavior that you are totally jaded against those who might actually need help.

Earlier you made mention of your father’s service at Normandy. That’s very noble. Then I read this (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=45827)

So I’m starting to see the full picture… or at least the limited scope I can glean from a message forum. It would appear you grew up under very dire circumstances. Why you father elected to live in such poverty is something I simply cannot speculate on. From what I read it appears your father used his “veteran status” as a license to beg, as if expecting handouts from others based solely on his service during the war. It is sad that that you grew up under such poverty, yet, inspiring to read that you pulled yourself up and out of that life. That is certainly something to be proud of.

However, earlier you made mention of how we need to revert back to the same “old school” techniques in the military. Forgive me for pointing out but, you don’t get much more “Old School” than the WWII generation. My point is, these issues and “conditions” of veterans you blame on the current political climate within the military appear to have existed back “in the day” as well. Certainly not the exact same circumstances, but, definitely the same symptoms. “Back in the day” (according to you) it was acceptable to just kick the shit out of these guys and throw them out on the street. As long as the problem isn’t in front of me… it doesn’t exist, right?

I gather you are an attorney. That might explain your position on a great many things. I can only assume that, when you say,
Perhaps it is just that I have seen an aspect of such ex military men that you haven't. Or seen them in a different setting. Under different circumstances. that these individuals met you in a courtroom, most likely on the opposing side, probably in a divorce case where your sole focus was to castigate, criminalize, and exploit every flaw about them. I’m sure they were (as you put it) “using their time in the service to excuse all manner of objectionable activities”. It’s no wonder why you hold such disdain towards service members in similar circumstances.

Sure, there are veterans out there who screw up. Some quite seriously, and should be held accountable for their actions. No one is claiming that just bearing the title “veteran” somehow makes one perfect and defect free. No one is advocating that their behavior is acceptable.

You say your objections are with, “the current military arrangement, and one that most likely as in quite likely, led to the altercation that led to this boys death, is that the military minds who run the military and are necessary to run the military are being replaced by politicians and psychologists to the detriment of everyone.” I believe just about everyone could agree with you on that in many ways. But then you use language like, “whiney weak "vets".

It seems, from my perspective, that you harbor a considerable amount of resentment towards both.


You can't see that I'm on your side can you?
I can clearly see you are on YOUR side. My opinion and experience (apparently) means dick in this conversation.


If you want an example of what I mean, it would be Allen West, who said he would walk through hell carrying a can of gasoline for his men. Wouldn't you? Isn't that the way you feel?

“How I feel” doesn’t seem to matter, so long as I “agree” with you, right? I’m sorry Tipsy but “how I feel” isn’t the issue here.

This is about veterans who need help. Men and Women who are struggling for whatever the reason, and the steps the military has taken to treat these men and women, and return them back to full strength and in good health; not just beat the shit out of them and throw them off to the wayside.

This Marine lost it… completely. No question about it. But castigating the entire system, the programs in place to assist and ESPECIALLY the veterans who really need this help is simply short-sighted and completely misses the intent of these efforts to meet the needs of service members.


Send them on their way. Join a support group.
Kinda reminds me of a day I was driving back from an Air Assault training mission. I was exhausted, 96 hour FTX with (maybe) 16 hours of sleep over the 4-day span. I was driving slow… not too slow, just enough to be careful. It was mid-day on a two lane road. I just wanted to get home safe. A car comes up behind me… starts riding my ass. This went on for a couple of miles before the car finally jerked out and sped around me. On the way past the driver flipped me off while (obviously) shouting the words, “Fuck you asshole!”. As he sped off in front of me I noticed a yellow “Support the Troops” sticker on his bumper. I doubt if he even noticed I was in uniform. All he could see was that I was a "problem" he'd rather not deal with.

Tipsycatlover
11-15-2011, 02:16 PM
I have been confusing. My Dad who was a very noble and sacrificing Vet passed away recently. It was my step father, my mother's second husband who led the family to a life on the streets. I'm sorry I was not more clear. I didn't see my biological father for many many years. He was quite a guy. I'm glad I finally did get to know him.

No. It was no always in a courtroom setting. Viet Nam was my era, it's where my friends, associates and relationships came from. Aside from the devastation I might wreak on someone looking for sympathy in a courtroom, I had plenty to deal with personally. Many, I reveled in being single. There were those I admired, still do to this day. And those I despised who used whatever experiences they had to squeeze out some sort of sympathy where none exists. My reaction is to tell them to suck it up, get over it, it's no one's responsibility to make you but you.

Back in the day wasn't even back in the day. Have you ever stopped to wonder what our current crop of psychologists would have done when war really mean hand to hand combat? Fought with swords, spears and battle axes? How did humanity survive to build great nations? No psychologists to tell them the benefits of becoming an emotional cripple.

Not long ago I was in Petco on dog adoption day. An old man went up to the saddest puppy in the place. Poor little guy was laying in a corner shivering with big frightened eyes. The old man walked up to the cage and said "I know what its like to be in a cage too". After all those years, you could STILL see that kind of pain on the old man's face. Who knows how long he existed in a Viet Cong cage? Yet he went on with his life, had a family, went to work every day, and never looked for someone else to fix him. After a short conversation, he was there to get seed for the wild birds, I had literally no choice but to get that puppy for him. Get the dog out of the cage. The heroes are those who go on, despite everything they had to endure, they overcome, they go on. He saw his friends die, then he watched his wife die. Now the world comes down to getting one dog out of one cage.

Unfortunately, we have a political climate that believes in indulging that kind of weakness and that climate has infected the military in the same way it has destroyed the police departments.

My resentment is toward weakness wherever it is and indulging that weakness is even WORSE. There shold be an 11th commandiment "Thou Shalt Not SNIVEL". Perhaps what it is, is really that you are suited for today and willing to give an emotional cripple a shoulder to lean on thinking that you are helping a brother or sister in need. It is very commendable you know. Nothing that I could ever do. It won't work, but it is quite, quite "humane".

Hawkgirl
11-15-2011, 07:10 PM
I
Unfortunately, we have a political climate that believes in indulging that kind of weakness and that climate has infected the military in the same way it has destroyed the police departments.

".

That's a strong statement...I know a few of my friends serving in Iraq right now would object to that label.

Your opinion comes from your personal experience with vets...but I can tell you my personal experience with vets and those serving now is the opposite of your's.

Witmaster
11-15-2011, 10:34 PM
My resentment is toward weakness wherever it is and indulging that weakness is even WORSE. There shold be an 11th commandiment "Thou Shalt Not SNIVEL". Perhaps what it is, is really that you are suited for today and willing to give an emotional cripple a shoulder to lean on thinking that you are helping a brother or sister in need. It is very commendable you know. Nothing that I could ever do. It won't work, but it is quite, quite "humane".LOL! Well, thank you. I'll wear that badge with honor.

If you really have any interest at all in this, I highly recommend you read "On Killing" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing:_The_Psychological_Cost_of_Learning_to_ Kill_in_War_and_Society) by LTC Dave Grossman.

Kay
11-15-2011, 11:36 PM
All I know for sure is that somebody here in this thread needs
some serious shrink time. And it's not the guy in the uniform.

Tipsycatlover
11-16-2011, 10:04 AM
That's a strong statement...I know a few of my friends serving in Iraq right now would object to that label.

Your opinion comes from your personal experience with vets...but I can tell you my personal experience with vets and those serving now is the opposite of your's.

No my experience comes from seeing the damage those policies have done in other institutions. It'd not the brave men and women I object to, it's what's being done TO them in the name of making a more sensitive miitary establishment. Changes like the Rules of Engagement that prohibit reinfiorcements or air support for units that are pinned down. Changes like nurturing the emotionally and mentally unfit. Aside from making the men and women serving in good faith into victims of political folly there is no other purpose.

Individually vets are human beings like any other human beings. Some will grow and some will hide into the benefits of eternal victimhood. I have a nephew that joined the Marines ten years ago right out of high school. It's his career. The day he joined, he knew he was going in with the intention of retiring. He's an MP. The regulations have changed dramatically in just the past three years over making arrests. The job has become more dangerous. That's in three years!

The policies, not the behavior of the individual military member, is what's at issue. Like keeping a violent alcoholic in the service instead of getting rid of him asap.

Watch and see how right I am. Now that more politicians and psychologists are attacking the NATO operation in Libya, you'll see even MORE changes making the military even less effective.

Tipsycatlover
11-16-2011, 10:14 AM
LOL! Well, thank you. I'll wear that badge with honor.

If you really have any interest at all in this, I highly recommend you read "On Killing" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing:_The_Psychological_Cost_of_Learning_to_ Kill_in_War_and_Society) by LTC Dave Grossman.

I looked at the book. I might read it, is it a serious treatise or just liberal claptrap psychobabble about how we need to be less confrontational and more undertstanding.

Witmaster
11-18-2011, 01:15 PM
I looked at the book. I might read it, is it a serious treatise or just liberal claptrap psychobabble about how we need to be less confrontational and more undertstanding.

It's a serious treatise. COL Grossman is an excellent writer and a very dynamic speaker.

Of course, he doesn't subscribe to your position on beating the shit out of service members and throwing them out. He does, however, offer some excellent insight on the psychological impact of the way we train to kill, and the impact that the act of killing actually has on people.

Excellent read.