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Rockntractor
11-22-2011, 11:45 PM
Michael Stone
, Humanist Examiner
Thanksgiving is turkey time, yet many Americans are unaware that the turkey on the menu may be halal, meaning it is slaughtered according to the dictates of sharia, the religious law of Islam.
On Monday, reports began circulating around the web that one of America’s largest producers of thanksgiving turkeys, Butterball, slaughters turkeys according to the dictates of sharia law. And apparently Butterball has confirmed the rumor: all Butterball whole turkeys sold in the U.S. are slaughtered in accord with sharia, Islamic religious law.

Halal is a term designating any object or an action which is permissible to use or engage in, according to Islamic law. The term is used to designate food seen as permissible according to Islamic law.

Halal slaughter is considered by many to be a barbaric and inhumane practice. Others object to the religious aspect - the offering of prayers to Allah as the animal is slaughtered.

The halal sanctioned method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, wind pipe and jugular veins but leaves the spinal cord intact, and the animal suffering. In addition, a prayer is said over tha animal as it suffers an agonizing death: "Bismillah allahu akbar" -- in the name of Allah the greatest.

Some concerned citizens are now boycotting Butterball turkeys - some because of the connection with Islam and sharia - others because of the brutal and inhumane method of slaughter.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Thanksgiving jihad? Butterball sells sharia friendly halal turkeys - National Humanist | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-national/thanksgiving-jihad-butterball-sells-sharia-friendly-halal-turkeys#ixzz1eUqqPczp



I am getting really tired of this crap!

Apache
11-22-2011, 11:53 PM
Well I won't be buying Butterball if this is true. Why let the those animals suffer in such a manner?

They are sick in the head. Truly sick...

Elspeth
11-22-2011, 11:53 PM
Apparently, Muslims are trying to find out if Butterball actually prays over the turkeys as well:


http://muslimmatters.org/2011/11/22/oh-the-irony-pamela-geller-and-the-stealth-halal-turkeys/

I confirmed with a Butterball consumer affairs representative (as did one of Geller’s readers) that their “whole turkeys are halal.” I pursued the issue by asking if that meant their turkeys are slaughtered individually following Islamic guidelines, beginning with saying Bismillah over them.

I have not been able to get a response to this question, despite trying throughout this afternoon and evening through Butterball’s consumer affairs department and media relations representatives.


I'm trying to find out if halal just refers to the killing method or if there are ritual prayers involved. It has been pointed out that halal is close to kosher, and some have offered that kosher is actually stricter than halal. Still looking for further info.

Rockntractor
11-22-2011, 11:58 PM
Well I won't be buying Butterball if this is true. Why let the those animals suffer in such a manner?

They are sick in the head. Truly sick...

It is true, I have read it from several sources.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 12:00 AM
Here's more from a Muslim blogger who went to the Butterball site (like I did) and found nothing about halal turkeys (and neither did I).


http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/herman_cain0018672

...I checked out the Butterball website and could find nothing about halal turkeys. I have never received any notices from any of the Muslim listserves that I am on that halal turkeys were available from Butterball. I have looked at the Butterball (and all the other brands) in my local supermarket, and none of them are marked “halal” or “kosher”. I googled “Butterball halal turkeys” and found nothing except for Geller’s article and reprints of or referrals to her article on sites such as “Death to Islam”, “Bare Naked Islam”, “American Thinker” ....

...So, if as Geller claims, all Butterball turkeys are halal...then they are certainly doing a poor marketing job. They are keeping this information secret from the very community who would be the purchasers of that product...


....In fact, the rules for Kosher and Halal slaughter are very similar. Both slit the throat in one cut without cutting the spinal cord and the blood must be drained. Both must use a sharp knife with no nicks, and not sharpen it in front of the animal. For kosher the animal must also be soaked in salted water to remove the last of the blood. One difference is that Muslims must pronounce God’s name on each animal, Jews must only pronounce a prayer before the first and last animals. After the actual slaughter there are differences in which parts of the animal may be used, etc. Kosher rules are more strict, and therefore observant Jews will not substitute halal for kosher, but many Muslims will substitute kosher for halal if halal is not available.

Sounds like this Butterball turkey thing is news to American Muslims.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 12:05 AM
Well I won't be buying Butterball if this is true. Why let the those animals suffer in such a manner?

They are sick in the head. Truly sick...

Maybe it's the year for something new:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm239/spectral_music/nw_tofurkey-1.jpg

:D:D

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 12:07 AM
By Pamela Geller

Did you know that the turkey you're going to enjoy on Thanksgiving Day this Thursday is probably halal? If it's a Butterball turkey, then it certainly is -- whether you like it or not.

In my book Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance, I report at length on the meat industry's halal scandal: its established practice of not separating halal meat from non-halal meat, and not labeling halal meat as such. And back in October 2010, I reported more little-noted but explosive new revelations: that much of the meat in Europe and the United States is being processed as halal without the knowledge of the non-Muslim consumers who buy it.

I discovered that only two plants in the U.S. that perform halal slaughter keep the halal meat separated from the non-halal meat, and they only do so because plant managers thought it was right to do so. At other meat-packing plants, animals are slaughtered following halal requirements, but then only a small bit of the meat is actually labeled halal.

Now here is yet more poisonous fruit of that scandal.

A citizen activist and reader of my website AtlasShrugs.com wrote to Butterball, one of the most popular producers of Thanksgiving turkeys in the United States, asking them if their turkeys were halal. Wendy Howze, a Butterball Consumer Response Representative, responded: "Our whole turkeys are certified halal."

In a little-known strike against freedom, yet again, we are being forced into consuming meat slaughtered by means of a torturous method: Islamic slaughter.

Halal slaughter involves cutting the trachea, the esophagus, and the jugular vein, and letting the blood drain out while saying "Bismillah allahu akbar" -- in the name of Allah the greatest. Many people refuse to eat it on religious grounds. Many Christians, Hindus or Sikhs and Jews find it offensive to eat meat slaughtered according to Islamic ritual (although observant Jews are less likely to be exposed to such meat, because they eat kosher).

Others object because of the cruelty to animals that halal slaughter necessitates. Where are the PETA clowns and the ridiculous celebs who pose naked on giant billboards for PETA and "animal rights"? They would rather see people die of cancer or AIDS than see animals used in drug testing, but torturous and painful Islamic slaughter is OK.

Still others refuse to do so on principle: why should we be forced to conform to Islamic norms? It's Islamic supremacism on the march, yet again.

Non-Muslims in America and Europe don't deserve to have halal turkey forced upon them in this way, without their knowledge or consent. So this Thanksgiving, fight for your freedom. Find a non-halal, non-Butterball turkey to celebrate Thanksgiving this Thursday. And write to Butterball and request, politely but firmly, that they stop selling only halal turkeys, and make non-halal turkeys available to Americans who still value our freedoms.

Stephanie Styons at Butterball Corporate sstyons@merrellgroup.com is the contact for those who want to let the company know their feelings about stealth halal turkeys. Also here is the Butterball website for plant locations, which lists whole turkeys as being produced at their North Carolina and Arkansas plants.

Across this great country, on Thanksgiving tables nationwide, infidel Americans are unwittingly going to be serving halal turkeys to their families this Thursday. Turkeys that are halal certified -- who wants that, especially on a day on which we are giving thanks to G-d for our freedom? I wouldn't knowingly buy a halal turkey -- would you? Halal turkey, slaughtered according to the rules of Islamic law, is just the opposite of what Thanksgiving represents: freedom and inclusiveness, neither of which are allowed for under that same Islamic law.

The same Islamic law that mandates that animals be cruelly slaughtered according to halal requirements also teaches hatred of and warfare against unbelievers, the oppression of women, the extinguishing of free speech, and much more that is inimical to our freedom. Don't support it on this celebration of freedom. Join our Facebook group, 'Boycott Butterball'.

Don't buy a Butterball turkey for Thanksgiving.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/happy_halal_thanksgiving.html#ixzz1eUwWTPvm

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 12:11 AM
Romans 14:14

As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself.


1 Corinthians 10:25-27 (also 1 Cor 8:4-8)

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.


Acts 15:29

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.


1 Corinthians 10:20-21

...the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.


Revelation 2:20

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 12:26 AM
Ok, before everyone panics, we don't know if the turkey is "sacrificed to idols." In other words, we don't know if any prayers to Allah are actually said. My guess is that Butterball only applies certain mechanics in its killing method, something that fits kosher and halal requirements. I am almost certain that there is not individual killing of birds and prayers over each one. It would just take too damned long.

Also understand that this is news to the Muslim community which, according to some popular sites I have read, didn't even know that Butterball was halal.

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 12:38 AM
As an international turkey provider, we have the expertise in serving different countries and different customs, and will work with you to meet any and all product needs. We have met the requirements for the following certifications: USDA Approved, Russian Approved, Halal Certified, and employ a Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points (HAACP) food safety system with Good Manufacturing processes. From great customer service to new product innovation to the proper certifications, Butterball has the experience you need to get our great tasting turkey in your market.
http://www.butterballcorp.com/intl/

It cannot be Halal certified if it is not prayed over.

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 12:40 AM
If you have already purchased a Butterball perhaps this would lift the curse.
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/bacon_turkey.jpg

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 01:10 AM
http://www.butterballcorp.com/intl/

It cannot be Halal certified if it is not prayed over.

Hmm. I'd love to find out if they actually pray over the turkeys. I can't imagine their doing so.

Also, it seems from your bacon-slathered turkey above that you did not appreciate my suggestion of Tofurkey? :D:D

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 01:19 AM
Hmm. I'd love to find out if they actually pray over the turkeys. I can't imagine their doing so.

Also, it seems from your bacon-slathered turkey above that you did not appreciate my suggestion of Tofurkey? :D:D

I love soy milk but not as a replacement for milk, I have a vegetarian dad and got burned out on all the soy protein meat substitutes very young.

Apache
11-23-2011, 01:30 AM
Maybe it's the year for something new:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm239/spectral_music/nw_tofurkey-1.jpg

:D:D

Whoa cowboy, back that horse way up! :eek:


I've slaughtered my fair share of livestock, I've done it QUICKLY! Head removed or .22 mag between the eyes, not the barbaric way that leaves the animal struggling to the end...

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 01:37 AM
Whoa cowboy, back that horse way up! :eek:


I've slaughtered my fair share of livestock, I've done it QUICKLY! Head removed or .22 mag between the eyes, not the barbaric way that leaves the animal struggling to the end...

That does sound more humane.

And certainly much tastier than soy with stuffing. :D

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 01:40 AM
I love soy milk but not as a replacement for milk, I have a vegetarian dad and got burned out on all the soy protein meat substitutes very young.

I'll bet. An old friend of mine was Indian and a vegetarian. We always went to vegetarian restaurants. The Thai one was ok because everything was so heavily spiced it wasn't clear what we were eating.:eek: But I'm not a big fan of tofu outside of Thai cooking. And halal or not, I am having the real deal for Thanksgiving. I've been invited out this year so I don't have to cook, but I suppose I should ask what turkey is being cooked. :)

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 01:44 AM
I've been invited out this year so I don't have to cook, but I suppose I should ask what turkey is being cooked. :)

I wouldn't ask, but when it comes to buying them myself I want a few things cleared up before I buy any Butterball products .

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 02:29 AM
I wouldn't ask, but when it comes to buying them myself I want a few things cleared up before I buy any Butterball products .

I'll bet Butterball's been getting a bunch of calls. I imagine they will try to clarify this some time this week.

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2011, 02:41 AM
My local grocery store has a large Kosher section. This type of thing isn't something to get mad about, who cares?

I can still get everything I want at the grocery store, so what's the problem?

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 02:45 AM
My local grocery store has a large Kosher section. This type of thing isn't something to get mad about, who cares?

I can still get everything I want at the grocery store, so what's the problem?

Your post is irrelevant, did you read any of the thread?

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2011, 02:48 AM
I might have to double check some research studies, but I don't think eating a halal turkey is going to sneaky-convert you to Islam.

Just to be safe though you might want to create a circle of salt and chant or something

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 02:55 AM
I might have to double check some research studies, but I don't think eating a halal turkey is going to sneaky-convert you to Islam.

Just to be safe though you might want to create a circle of salt and chant or something

It has more to do with the inhumane method used for slaughter. Mock away, you are just as evil as they are.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 03:05 AM
My local grocery store has a large Kosher section. This type of thing isn't something to get mad about, who cares?

I can still get everything I want at the grocery store, so what's the problem?

Here's the problem:

There are two aspects to kosher/halal procedure: one is the mechanics of the kill and the other is the prayers required at the time of the kill. For some, the method of killing (for both kosher and halal procedures) seems more barbaric and hurtful to the animal than more modern methods, but that is not the only issue in this thread. A real sticking point is the prayer over the dying animal. In order to be halal, the name of God (Allah) must be pronounced over every dying animal.

If you are a true Christian who believes in the power of prayer and the energetic force of properly performed ritual, then having a food item where that power has been applied by a rival religion with a rival god is a spiritual wrong, especially when that god has been invoked against you and your country in deadly attacks.

If you're an atheist or agnostic, Butterball could pray over the turkey to any entity and it would be meaningless, since you would believe that no entity was around to hear the prayer and receive the energy of the ritual.

Kosher food is acceptable to many Christians because it is the same God (Yahweh) to whom the prayers and ritual would be offered. Halal food is not because Yahweh is not identified with Allah.

The woman who wrote the original article, Pamela Geller, is Jewish and her reasons may be the same as that of Christians, although one might also see her having antipathy towards Islamic nations that dispute Israel's right to exist. I am not sure where she is coming from; just offering that as a possibility.

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2011, 03:31 AM
It has more to do with the inhumane method used for slaughter. Mock away, you are just as evil as they are.


When did you join PETA?

I live in Texas and have grown up around hunters, I don't see anything inhumane about slitting an animals throat to kill it for food.

Some of my vegetarian friends would disagree, but I've seen animals being shot and going minutes before they are put out of their misery, and they became some of the most tasty sausage I ever had.

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2011, 03:37 AM
Here's the problem:

There are two aspects to kosher/halal procedure: one is the mechanics of the kill and the other is the prayers required at the time of the kill. For some, the method of killing (for both kosher and halal procedures) seems more barbaric and hurtful to the animal than more modern methods, but that is not the only issue in this thread. A real sticking point is the prayer over the dying animal. In order to be halal, the name of God (Allah) must be pronounced over every dying animal.

If you are a true Christian who believes in the power of prayer and the energetic force of properly performed ritual, then having a food item where that power has been applied by a rival religion with a rival god is a spiritual wrong, especially when that god has been invoked against you and your country in deadly attacks.

If you're an atheist or agnostic, Butterball could pray over the turkey to any entity and it would be meaningless, since you would believe that no entity was around to hear the prayer and receive the energy of the ritual.

Kosher food is acceptable to many Christians because it is the same God (Yahweh) to whom the prayers and ritual would be offered. Halal food is not because Yahweh is not identified with Allah.

The woman who wrote the original article, Pamela Geller, is Jewish and her reasons may be the same as that of Christians, although one might also see her having antipathy towards Islamic nations that dispute Israel's right to exist. I am not sure where she is coming from; just offering that as a possibility.

I see what you mean here, but the Quran references the God of Abraham, and I think Islamic prayers are directed at the God of Abraham.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 04:15 AM
I see what you mean here, but the Quran references the God of Abraham, and I think Islamic prayers are directed at the God of Abraham.

Just because a god is referenced has having the same pedigree as another does not mean that the god stands for the same personage, idea, or energy in different religions. The God of Abraham means different things to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

To Christians, the God of Abraham includes the person of Jesus Christ as part of the godhead, the energy, if you will. Islam, on the other hand, regards Jesus as another prophet, a failed one, who was eventually superceded by Mohammad. Because Islam acknowledges Jesus but denies his godhood, it is both denying the nature of the one true god (which includes a Jesus energy) and is worshiping a very different god, even though it has the same historical pedigree.

You might argue that this is the identical situation for the Jews, who worship their God without a consubstantial Jesus, and you would be right. However, Jews and Christians share the same Old Testament and that identity of God the Father is acknowledged as the main god in both religions. In addition, Jews don't have the obvious scriptural references to Jesus that Islam does, demoting him to mere prophet status. (There apparently were or are references in the Talmud, but these are not widely known among Christians or secular Jews.) Finally, the current politics in Europe and the US allows for the glossing over of any small differences that may exist. Jews will not acknowledge or pray to Jesus, but Christians can join jews in a prayer to God the Father (Yahweh) and be pretty certain that it is the same basic deity.

This may all seem like splitting hairs, but religion has always been about doing just that. Religion is one of the chief ways in which people identify themselves and differentiate themselves from others, so hair splitting becomes crucial when differences are so fine.

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 11:16 AM
There is no point trying to explain it to Wei, he is trolling for a reaction that will entertain him.

NJCardFan
11-23-2011, 01:34 PM
I am getting really tired of this crap!

To be fair, most products respect Kosher methods when preparing their products. That P in a circle on a package means it's Kosher. So is anything with these symbols on it:
http://www.hilleljuc.org/images/supervision.png

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2011, 02:18 PM
Just because a god is referenced has having the same pedigree as another does not mean that the god stands for the same personage, idea, or energy in different religions. The God of Abraham means different things to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

To Christians, the God of Abraham includes the person of Jesus Christ as part of the godhead, the energy, if you will. Islam, on the other hand, regards Jesus as another prophet, a failed one, who was eventually superceded by Mohammad. Because Islam acknowledges Jesus but denies his godhood, it is both denying the nature of the one true god (which includes a Jesus energy) and is worshiping a very different god, even though it has the same historical pedigree.

You might argue that this is the identical situation for the Jews, who worship their God without a consubstantial Jesus, and you would be right. However, Jews and Christians share the same Old Testament and that identity of God the Father is acknowledged as the main god in both religions. In addition, Jews don't have the obvious scriptural references to Jesus that Islam does, demoting him to mere prophet status. (There apparently were or are references in the Talmud, but these are not widely known among Christians or secular Jews.) Finally, the current politics in Europe and the US allows for the glossing over of any small differences that may exist. Jews will not acknowledge or pray to Jesus, but Christians can join jews in a prayer to God the Father (Yahweh) and be pretty certain that it is the same basic deity.

This may all seem like splitting hairs, but religion has always been about doing just that. Religion is one of the chief ways in which people identify themselves and differentiate themselves from others, so hair splitting becomes crucial when differences are so fine.

Right this makes sense but when it comes to a turkey being prayed over to the "wrong God", how much does it matter?

It's not like they are praying to Thor, they are praying to the God of Abraham it's just that (to a Christian) they are doing it improperly by not recognizing that same God as being personified through Christ.

I can see the argument that they are not properly praying or they are praying to an improper interpretation of the same God, but I don't see how that equates to praying to a totally different, separately existing God who will curse the turkey.

You're right, it is splitting hairs, and I know that goes on a lot in religious discussions, but how much does that matter here? If a Muslim offers a prayer for your safety or good blessing, should you be angry or run away because your God will be angered?

This just isn't how I have come to understand God, but I know different people will have different ideas.

DumbAss Tanker
11-23-2011, 02:19 PM
Jew-haters post almost exactly the same kind of stuff about kosher slaughtering, personally I don't give a rat's ass about either one, as long as the meat isn't screwed up. They can chase the fuckers down with chainsaws, as long as they aim well and don't mess up the white meat.

I kinda like the bacon-wrapping ideas, for reasons totally unrelated to tolerating Islam.

Wei Wu Wei
11-23-2011, 02:20 PM
Jew-haters post almost exactly the same kind of stuff about kosher slaughtering, personally I don't give a rat's ass as long as the meat isn't screwed up. I kinda like the bacon-wrapping ideas, for reasons totally unrelated to tolerating Islam.

I'd love to see some stupid anti-semite enjoying a delicious turkey only to tell them halfway through that it is....gasp...kosher!!

bahhahaha

Adam Wood
11-23-2011, 02:38 PM
This has the very distinct aroma of bullshit about it.

Butterball cranks out hundreds of thousands of turkeys this time of year. There is no way in hell that they can: slaughter each one individually, or; pray over them while they are being slaughtered. Never gonna happen with a high-volume production line like they have.



Pamela Gellar is out to sell more books. Like most other matters, she's full of shit on this one, too. It makes for interesting internet legend drama, but it's just not true.

Arroyo_Doble
11-23-2011, 02:57 PM
This has the very distinct aroma of bullshit about it.

Butterball cranks out hundreds of thousands of turkeys this time of year. There is no way in hell that they can: slaughter each one individually, or; pray over them while they are being slaughtered. Never gonna happen with a high-volume production line like they have.



Pamela Gellar is out to sell more books. Like most other matters, she's full of shit on this one, too. It makes for interesting internet legend drama, but it's just not true.

There is a butcher shop west of Ft Worth (Weatherford) has offered halal meat for over thirty years. Muslims in the area keep it busy around Islamic holidays. Not sure what the big deal is.

On a side note, having worked in the poultry processing industry, I don't see how you can process the amount of birds Butterball does and they all are halal.

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 03:07 PM
There is a butcher shop west of Ft Worth (Weatherford) has offered halal meat for over thirty years. Muslims in the area keep it busy around Islamic holidays. Not sure what the big deal is.

On a side note, having worked in the poultry processing industry, I don't see how you can process the amount of birds Butterball does and they all are halal.

Call them and ask them, I'll take your word for it.

Rockntractor
11-23-2011, 03:17 PM
Don't push in the temp button, it could be a detonator!:eek:

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 10:29 PM
Right this makes sense but when it comes to a turkey being prayed over to the "wrong God", how much does it matter?


As I said, if you're an atheist or agnostic, not at all. And if you're a person whose spirituality is more inclusive and believe all ways lead to the same god then you don't mind if someone prays to Allah, Krishna, or the Angel Moroni.



It's not like they are praying to Thor, they are praying to the God of Abraham it's just that (to a Christian) they are doing it improperly by not recognizing that same God as being personified through Christ.

Not exactly. There is an argument that Allah is not God because he is not Jesus. I know it's esoteric, but when you get into theology it's a bit of a thicket. Intention matters even more than history. Remember, with religion, you're dealing with spiritual acts which have a realm of their own outside of history and outside of scripture. In order to do these acts and have them count for good (and not evil) you have to have the right intent (energy) behind them. Catholicism, for example, has the seven sacraments, of which six are open to all people and the seventh (holy orders) open only to those who choose the religious life (priests, brothers, nuns, etc.) One of the six sacraments is marriage. The Catholic church does not allow divorce (the separation of two people married legitimately with the "right attitude and spirit") but does allow annulment, which is the acknowledgment that two people who went through the wedding ceremony are nonetheless not really married because of their attitude or spirit at the time. So for example, if you are drunk when you get married or are coerced into marriage, you do not have the right attitude or proper spiritual frame of mind to make the holy commitment of marriage.

Here again, it sounds like splitting hairs, but in Christianity especially the right spirit matters. In Judaism, you perform mitzvah , which are necessary actions commanded by God in Jewish law. You have to do them but you don't have to like them for the mitzvah to "count" (at least according to my Jewish friends). In Catholicism, you have to do "good works" which are also commanded by Jesus in the New Testament-- feed the hungry, clothe the naked, love your neighbor, etc. However, you must also have the "right" attitude (if you are Catholic) or they don't "count". That was drilled into us by the nuns: not only did you have to do good things for people but you had to do it for the love of God, not for your own aggrandizement and not just because you had to. (I have heard that in Judaism, the best mitzvahs are those done in secret, between the person and God, so some of the Catholic view on good works seems to be related to that.)

So to summarize, you have to have the right spirit, the right energy and the right god. Confusing, yes? :)



I can see the argument that they are not properly praying or they are praying to an improper interpretation of the same God, but I don't see how that equates to praying to a totally different, separately existing God who will curse the turkey.

It's not about cursing a turkey. The thing can't get more cursed than being dead :).



You're right, it is splitting hairs, and I know that goes on a lot in religious discussions, but how much does that matter here? If a Muslim offers a prayer for your safety or good blessing, should you be angry or run away because your God will be angered?

This just isn't how I have come to understand God, but I know different people will have different ideas.

Yes, it's splitting hairs. Remember, my church spent oodles of time debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. At least it kept those guys off the streets and out of trouble. :)

I'm just trying to explain the religious mindset to you, which is always difficult for one not raised in it. It causes certain knee-jerk reactions and sometimes it's good to put it all down.

If you understand it better, perhaps you can have some tolerance for it, even if you disagree. It's like the Shona tribe of Zimbabwe who play the Mbira, a metal thumb piano. It has an unique sound, which to the Westerner is merely "interesting" but to the Shona it is a way of calling their dead ancestors down, in a mediumistic way, to possess the body of a living person and give advice to the tribe. If you or I pick up the mbira and play it, we're not calling down ancestors and we certainly are not asking to be possessed by them. (Let's hope not, anyway. Some ancestors are best left undisturbed!) But if a Shona plays the mbira, there is a whole history behind it and for some it is a sacred act. It might be a sacrilege to certain people if you play it, sample it, and include it in some pop piece (like the Beatles did with the sitar).

You might wonder why anyone would get mad about that but if you are going to deal with some Shona who believe in the power of the mbira, you need to be tolerant. (You might also look up to avoid falling ancestors.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmCt8aGrwJc

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 10:32 PM
Jew-haters post almost exactly the same kind of stuff about kosher slaughtering, personally I don't give a rat's ass about either one, as long as the meat isn't screwed up. They can chase the fuckers down with chainsaws, as long as they aim well and don't mess up the white meat.

I kinda like the bacon-wrapping ideas, for reasons totally unrelated to tolerating Islam.

I think that's how most people feel.

I wonder, though, how people would feel if a Wiccan priest prayed over it. It's always interesting to see where the breaking point is.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 10:34 PM
On a side note, having worked in the poultry processing industry, I don't see how you can process the amount of birds Butterball does and they all are halal.

That was a comment on one of the Muslim-American websites. They still have not heard the specifics from Butterball on what they actually do. I'm figuring the slaughter is done in a certain front to back way, and maybe they have some religious dudes signing off on it.

Elspeth
11-23-2011, 10:36 PM
Pamela Gellar is out to sell more books. Like most other matters, she's full of shit on this one, too. It makes for interesting internet legend drama, but it's just not true.


It certainly sounds that way. What's her MO? I never heard of her before this thread.

Elspeth
11-24-2011, 02:25 AM
Statement from Butterball read on (gasp!) MSNBC. (I know, I know. But it was the one place I found an actual full statement from Butterball)

"Our domestic products are not halal certified and thus, do not require any additional on-package labeling. As is common within the industry, when we started to export our products overseas, we applied for and met the necessary requirements of halal processing for a segment of our business. Butterball whole turkeys are produced in a manner that meets those requirements if needed, but only turkeys exported to specific countries are certified halal."

So, halal processing, the way in which the blade cuts the turkey neck, is true of some Butterball turkeys. This does not make Butterball truly halal or halal certified. Certified halal, with the halal stamp, means that all conditions have been met, and only those turkeys exported to Muslim countries are truly halal.

So this looks like a scare by Pamela Gellar, nothing more.

Rockntractor
11-24-2011, 02:29 AM
Statement from Butterball read on (gasp!) MSNBC. (I know, I know. But it was the one place I found an actual full statement from Butterball)

"Our domestic products are not halal certified and thus, do not require any additional on-package labeling. As is common within the industry, when we started to export our products overseas, we applied for and met the necessary requirements of halal processing for a segment of our business. Butterball whole turkeys are produced in a manner that meets those requirements if needed, but only turkeys exported to specific countries are certified halal."

So, halal processing, the way in which the blade cuts the turkey neck, is true of some Butterball turkeys. This does not make Butterball truly halal or halal certified. Certified halal, with the halal stamp, means that all conditions have been met, and only those turkeys exported to Muslim countries are truly halal.

So this looks like a scare by Pamela Gellar, nothing more.

Good, I'm glad this is the case.

txradioguy
11-24-2011, 03:37 AM
I am getting really tired of this crap!

But...but...but....claims that Muslims are slowly infusing their religion into American life are sooooo overblown :roll eyes:


/DU mode

Lanie
11-24-2011, 03:41 AM
I don't see the problem.

Halal meat is actually considered to be slaughtered in a more humane way because it's supposedly quicker.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5079235_definition-halal-food.html


Dhabiha, like the kosher "schechting," is a swift incision made with a sharp knife on the animal's neck, cutting both the jugular vein and carotid artery. The spinal cord must remain intact. Many Muslims do, in fact, consider kosher meat halal, though stricter adherents do not. Orthodox Jews, however, do not consider halal meat as kosher, because kosher schechting does have other requirements.

Read more: Definition of Halal Food | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5079235_definition-halal-food.html#ixzz1ebbVsU4D

Now, about stunning....

http://www.hedweb.com/hillman/animpain.htm


There is evidence from human beings that electrical stimulation is painful. Electrical current is widely used to torture people in South America/ the Middle East and China; cattle prods or electric batons are used. Victims of torture attest that the larger the voltage or current, the more painful it is; they do not go unconscious immediately. The power used to torture people is of the same order as that used to stun animals. Greater energy used in the electric chair kills the victim after some minutes, or spoils the taste of meat. Of course, the voltages and currents experienced by the human beings or animals are much lower than those coming out of the devices they use, because the electrodes can not be applied accurately and firmly, and there are alternative pathways across the skin, through the skin and into the tissues. In the case of prisoners in the electric chair, the electrodes are moistened and bound firmly to the head and foot to ensure good contact.

This doesn't sound humane to me.

Industrial slaughter, from the same link.


Large numbers of animals are slaughtered rapidly in an assembly line. Chickens are lifted by their legs when they are fully conscious. Their heads are immersed in water to make electrical contact, but some flutter and are not stunned. Chickens and pigs are subjected to scalding water to remove their feathers and hair. When stunning is not done properly or exsanguination has not progressed enough, a significant proportion of animals is burnt before going unconscious.

I had a great aunt who used to do something really weird with the chickens. Chop their head off, let them run, and that's that. What's with this junk above?

Also, I remember watching this episode of Dirty Jobs where the pigs were on top of each other. What a way to live. I also think it's wrong that many farmers are putting animals in small cages for most of their lives. Then, there is the issue of anti-biotics. We're not exactly glowing in morality here.

But if you want to avoid anything with Arab or Muslim background, kindly stop counting in numbers and use roman numerals.

JB
11-24-2011, 01:46 PM
Don't push in the temp button, it could be a detonator!:eek:Now that's funny.

JB
11-24-2011, 01:50 PM
But if you want to avoid anything with Arab or Muslim background, kindly stop counting in numbers and use roman numerals.Yeah, those numbers you are referring to were actually invented by Indian mathematicians. The Arabs took them to Europe where the Europeans misnamed them Arabic numbers because they were unaware of their true origin.

I bet you suck at Jeopardy.

Lanie
11-24-2011, 05:39 PM
Yeah, those numbers you are referring to were actually invented by Indian mathematicians. The Arabs took them to Europe where the Europeans misnamed them Arabic numbers because they were unaware of their true origin.

I bet you suck at Jeopardy.

India had more Muslims before it split up into India and Pakistan. :D

Happy Thanksgiving!

Adam Wood
11-24-2011, 10:16 PM
In case anyone still needs some instructions on how to cook their turkey this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=foA0MGUbYH0


Thanks to a dear friend from whom I blatantly stole this. :D

JB
11-25-2011, 08:01 PM
India had more Muslims before it split up into India and Pakistan. :D

Happy Thanksgiving!The numerals predate the invention of Islam so Muslims had nothing to do with it.

Merry Christmas.

patriot45
11-25-2011, 08:17 PM
I don't see the problem.

Halal meat is actually considered to be slaughtered in a more humane way because it's supposedly quicker.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5079235_definition-halal-food.html



Now, about stunning....

http://www.hedweb.com/hillman/animpain.htm



This doesn't sound humane to me.

Industrial slaughter, from the same link.



I had a great aunt who used to do something really weird with the chickens. Chop their head off, let them run, and that's that. What's with this junk above?

Also, I remember watching this episode of Dirty Jobs where the pigs were on top of each other. What a way to live. I also think it's wrong that many farmers are putting animals in small cages for most of their lives. Then, there is the issue of anti-biotics. We're not exactly glowing in morality here.

But if you want to avoid anything with Arab or Muslim background, kindly stop counting in numbers and use roman numerals.

I ...II this post! XI ty XI!!

:cool::rolleyes: