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Apocalypse
11-30-2011, 02:59 PM
Long read, but well worth it. Its written about Wisconsin, but could very easily apply to any place.


In the last decade alone we have lost 150,000 manufacturing jobs in this state over 25%. And its not just jobs that have been lost; the companies that provided them are gone.

http://www.timnerenz.com/2011/11/downward-wisconsin.html

Nubs
11-30-2011, 05:38 PM
This is just the natural evolution of globalization.

As products become standardized and of commodity nature, there is no need for skilled labor to manufacture and the wages they command. Once China develops and wages rise, low skill manufacturing will move to Africa.

America is where high tech products will be born and manufactured until standardization sets in. The US will never have a high level of manufacturing again. We will become for service oriented as in financial services etc.

Wei Wu Wei
11-30-2011, 07:21 PM
This is just the natural evolution of globalization.

As products become standardized and of commodity nature, there is no need for skilled labor to manufacture and the wages they command. Once China develops and wages rise, low skill manufacturing will move to Africa.

This is a myth of natural progression. Our society didn't simply "develop" on it's own, higher wages were fought for, they were protested for, people went on strike for them. Minimum wage, workplace safety laws, child labor laws, and more were products of vibrant labor activism. It wasn't just a normal thing that occured.

This same myth applies to issues of racism. Our society began with Africans being shipped to America for slave labor, where they were treated as subhuman without the most basic rights or human dignity (ironic in an age that was defined by it's adherence to the universality of Man. ). Today, an African American is the president of the United States. That didn't simply occur as a product of natural development, it wasn't "just a matter of time". It took long periods of struggle and extreme high points of social unrest and dedication by activists and leaders who faced harsh resistance by the powers that be.

Slavery in the South didn't just go away because "the times changed". Those holding power in the South were happy with that arrangement, because that arrangement kept them in power. It took the most catastrophic war in our history to end that social arrangement. Even then, it was followed by extreme Jim Crow laws and discrimination, again which only changed as a result of extreme social upheaval, against the wishes of those holding power and influence.


Societies don't simply get "better with time", it takes constant struggle and dedication to the interests of working people for that to happen.. They constantly evolve, but the path of that evolution isn't predefined.

There's no reason to assume that the social conditions in China are going to mimick our own.




America is where high tech products will be born and manufactured until standardization sets in. The US will never have a high level of manufacturing again. We will become for service oriented as in financial services etc.

The simple fact is that it became cheaper, and therefore more profitable for businesses to outsource their labor.

It is cheaper to hire chinese workers for slave-wages than it is to hire Americans.

You guys want to let "the market decide" everything? This is exactly what you get.

We can have workers in America working for pennies an hour with horrific dangerous workplace safety hazards, or we can accept all of the manufacturing jobs being outsourced to places where people work in those conditions. When you let big business give you the choices, these are what you are left to choose from.

Rockntractor
11-30-2011, 07:27 PM
This is a myth of natural progression. Our society didn't simply "develop" on it's own, higher wages were fought for, they were protested for, people went on strike for them. Minimum wage, workplace safety laws, child labor laws, and more were products of vibrant labor activism. It wasn't just a normal thing that occured.

This same myth applies to issues of racism. Our society began with Africans being shipped to America for slave labor, where they were treated as subhuman without the most basic rights or human dignity (ironic in an age that was defined by it's adherence to the universality of Man. ). Today, an African American is the president of the United States. That didn't simply occur as a product of natural development, it wasn't "just a matter of time". It took long periods of struggle and extreme high points of social unrest and dedication by activists and leaders who faced harsh resistance by the powers that be.

Slavery in the South didn't just go away because "the times changed". Those holding power in the South were happy with that arrangement, because that arrangement kept them in power. It took the most catastrophic war in our history to end that social arrangement. Even then, it was followed by extreme Jim Crow laws and discrimination, again which only changed as a result of extreme social upheaval, against the wishes of those holding power and influence.


Societies don't simply get "better with time", it takes constant struggle and dedication to the interests of working people for that to happen.. They constantly evolve, but the path of that evolution isn't predefined.

There's no reason to assume that the social conditions in China are going to mimick our own.





The simple fact is that it became cheaper, and therefore more profitable for businesses to outsource their labor.

It is cheaper to hire chinese workers for slave-wages than it is to hire Americans.

You guys want to let "the market decide" everything? This is exactly what you get.

We can have workers in America working for pennies an hour with horrific dangerous workplace safety hazards, or we can accept all of the manufacturing jobs being outsourced to places where people work in those conditions. When you let big business give you the choices, these are what you are left to choose from.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/313_051.jpgThis is the kind of product your people make.

Wei Wu Wei
11-30-2011, 07:31 PM
I have worked in a manufacturing plant, but I didn't make cars.

Apocalypse
11-30-2011, 07:36 PM
The simple fact is that it became cheaper, and therefore more profitable for businesses to outsource their labor.

It is cheaper to hire chinese workers for slave-wages than it is to hire Americans.

You guys want to let "the market decide" everything? This is exactly what you get.

We can have workers in America working for pennies an hour with horrific dangerous workplace safety hazards, or we can accept all of the manufacturing jobs being outsourced to places where people work in those conditions. When you let big business give you the choices, these are what you are left to choose from.
OK Wei, I'll be a little more calm in discussions with you then some of the others.

Prey-tell... how will unions keep the factories here? How are they stopping them from moving over seas?

Wei Wu Wei
11-30-2011, 07:44 PM
OK Wei, I'll be a little more calm in discussions with you then some of the others.

Prey-tell... how will unions keep the factories here? How are they stopping them from moving over seas?

They can push congress to pass laws that create incentives to hire domestically.

For example, higher taxes on companies that outsource their jobs, and tax cuts for companies that higher domestically.

A much stronger measure could be a law like Germany's co-determination law. They require that all large companies split their management boards. For example, half of the people on the board would be selected by investors and owners, the other half are selected by their workers, that way the workers have just as much say in company decisions as the owners. If workers had that kind of influence in their workplace, they could prevent companies from outsourcing. Germany is known for having one of the strongest economies in Europe.

It takes organized labor or labor-focused political groups to push these measures through congress because ordinary working people simply cannot buy politicians the way big businesses can.


Within our system, there is a built-in conflict between the working class and big business. They both need each other to survive, but their interests are mutually opposed. These ideas listed above will not resolve this conflict, but big business has been running the show like a runaway train for the last 3 decades, so having some push on the other side will be a little better for working people.

Apocalypse
11-30-2011, 08:29 PM
There are a few problems with that Wei.

One is Unions are not pushing for any of that.

" higher taxes on companies that outsource their jobs" simply translate into companies shutting down fully here, and moving over-seas. Then they avoid it fully. You can not tax a foreign company for their hiring practice.

"tax cuts for companies that higher domestically." been proposed by both sides, and doesn't really work. We tried it in '04 under Bush. Did it help? Nope... What we found was successful firms that would have hired just enjoyed the windfall tax breaks. Companies other then those that were looking for help, didn't hire any one. The tax breaks were showed no effect on creating domestic jobs. As the cost of the wages, insurance, and other bennies out weighed the benefits of hiring here.

You make the comment that Big Biz has been running away out of control, same is said about unions. They are using thug tactics to try and force workers, and companies into caving to their demands. Fleecing workers of more money then what they should pay to pad the union bosses pockets. And shoveling loads of union dollars to politicians that don't really rep. their stated goals.

Wei. My dad was a union RR worker for 30 years. His last 5 years, my take home pay was 20% more with only 3 years in, then his 25+ years after all they took out of his pay-check. He's retired now. Fairly well, but to be honest, I may end up better then him even with my bennies without being union. Unions tend to fleece their people too much. And there is no one making sure they are kept in balance, and doing what they should be.

Nubs
11-30-2011, 08:54 PM
They can push congress to pass laws that create incentives to hire domestically.

For example, higher taxes on companies that outsource their jobs, and tax cuts for companies that higher domestically.

A much stronger measure could be a law like Germany's co-determination law. They require that all large companies split their management boards. For example, half of the people on the board would be selected by investors and owners, the other half are selected by their workers, that way the workers have just as much say in company decisions as the owners. If workers had that kind of influence in their workplace, they could prevent companies from outsourcing. Germany is known for having one of the strongest economies in Europe.

It takes organized labor or labor-focused political groups to push these measures through congress because ordinary working people simply cannot buy politicians the way big businesses can.


Within our system, there is a built-in conflict between the working class and big business. They both need each other to survive, but their interests are mutually opposed. These ideas listed above will not resolve this conflict, but big business has been running the show like a runaway train for the last 3 decades, so having some push on the other side will be a little better for working people.

Then why is 71% of German GDP derived from the service side of the economy??

I too have worked in manufacturing plants. Unions do nothing to improve the profitability of a plant. Unions are nothing but increased overhead.

Tipsycatlover
11-30-2011, 10:47 PM
Slavery in the South didn't just go away because "the times changed". Those holding power in the South were happy with that arrangement, because that arrangement kept them in power. It took the most catastrophic war in our history to end that social arrangement. Even then, it was followed by extreme Jim Crow laws and discrimination, again which only changed as a result of extreme social upheaval, against the wishes of those holding power and influence.

That's not true at all. Slavery was on its way out even before the North began their economic war on the south. With mechanization, maintaining slaves was just too expensive. The cotton gin alone ended the need for hundreds of slaves. The civil war was not over slavery, which didn't become an issue until we were well into fighting. The civil war was fought because the northern mills wanted to control the price of cotton and prevent the south from selling to more lucrative european markets.

More importantly the civil was was fought over states rights and whether a state had the right to leave the union. That's one issue that needs to be revisited.

Constitutionally Speaking
12-01-2011, 08:14 AM
This is a myth of natural progression. Our society didn't simply "develop" on it's own, higher wages were fought for, they were protested for, people went on strike for them. Minimum wage, workplace safety laws, child labor laws, and more were products of vibrant labor activism. It wasn't just a normal thing that occured.


You are partially correct here, but your conclusions and your solutions are wrong.


Labor activists did what you say, but in doing so, they MADE China etc. a more attractive option. We COULD have offset this by lowering other costs or increasing the benefit of keeping jobs here, but instead, liberals and socialists INCREASED the other costs and DECREASED the rewards for keeping those jobs here.


We COULD have offset those labor cost advantages that other countries have over us, but instead of acknowledging reality, the liberal played the hatred and jealousy card to FURTHER drive jobs overseas.

djones520
12-01-2011, 09:02 AM
That's not true at all. Slavery was on its way out even before the North began their economic war on the south. With mechanization, maintaining slaves was just too expensive. The cotton gin alone ended the need for hundreds of slaves. The civil war was not over slavery, which didn't become an issue until we were well into fighting. The civil war was fought because the northern mills wanted to control the price of cotton and prevent the south from selling to more lucrative european markets.

More importantly the civil was was fought over states rights and whether a state had the right to leave the union. That's one issue that needs to be revisited.

Read the articles of secession issued by the states from the South. Almost everyone of them lists their primary reason for seceeding as being the "Norths assault on slavery".

There were other issues involved of course, but this meme of slavery not being the true cause is blatantly false. The states themselves declared it so.