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Rockntractor
12-15-2011, 02:05 PM
AP Story, go to link>http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-feds-arpaio-violated-civil-rights-164947314.html

NJCardFan
12-16-2011, 12:12 AM
Of course they're saying this. He doesn't bring them cookies and milk on a daily basis so he's violating their rights. Arpaio's been there and done that. He isn't going to sweat this.

Rockntractor
12-16-2011, 12:14 AM
Of course they're saying this. He doesn't bring them cookies and milk on a daily basis so he's violating their rights. Arpaio's been there and done that. He isn't going to sweat this.

I don't see any charges against him, if they have no charges they should shut the hell up.

Apache
12-16-2011, 12:27 AM
Joe Joe Joe, you are a piece of work. You really are...



I don't like the man. That being said, this is a smear ....plain and simple

noonwitch
12-16-2011, 10:48 AM
Joe Joe Joe, you are a piece of work. You really are...



I don't like the man. That being said, this is a smear ....plain and simple


I don't either.

NJCardFan
12-16-2011, 11:59 AM
I love him. He treats jail like it's supposed to be treated and not like some extended vacation spot that the left feels it should be.

Bailey
12-16-2011, 12:25 PM
He's got a certain amount of time to "admit" guilt in these matter and help the Feds fix these so called problems, If I was him I'd tell them to go f#$k themselves.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 08:43 AM
The report also said he and some top staffers tried to silence people who have spoken out against the sheriff's office by arresting people without cause, filing meritless lawsuits against opponents and starting investigations of critics.This is a smear? Sounds like fact to me.


The civil rights report said Latinos are four to nine times more likely to be stopped in traffic stops in Maricopa County than non-Latinos and that the agency's immigration policies treat Latinos as if they are all in the country illegally. Deputies on the immigrant-smuggling squad stop and arrest Latino drivers without good cause, the investigation found.Funny, this seems okay to you, but DUI traffic stops arent? Probable cause, anyone?


A review done as part of the investigation found that 20 percent of traffic reports handled by Arpaio's immigrant-smuggling squad from March 2006 to March 2009 were stops — almost all involving Latino drivers — that were done without reasonable suspicion. The squad's stops rarely led to smuggling arrests.So in fact they were stopping and harassing AMERICAN CITIZENS in violation of the very same Constitution you say is the law of the land? Again without probable cause?


Latino inmates with limited English skills were punished for failing to understand commands in English by being put in solitary confinement for up to 23 hours a day or keeping prisoners locked down in their jail pods for as long as 72 hours without a trip to the canteen area or making nonlegal phone calls.Solitary confinement for the offence of not speaking English. Uh huh, that isnt an abuse of power, is it?


Detention officers refused to accept forms requesting basic daily services and reporting mistreatment when the documents were completed in Spanish and pressured Latinos with limited English skills to sign forms that implicate their legal rights without language assistance.Forcing them to sign forms that they did not understand that waived their legal rights..right, that's not a viiolation of their civil rights, is it?

Do I smell a double standard?

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 08:58 AM
Your name is Ramon Martinez. You are a US citizen on your way home from work.

You are stopped and questioned by the MCSO repeatedly...for the crime of "driving whilst Hispanic"

Now tell me, Latino or not, are you, or are you not, entitled to the same civil rights of all other Americans, gauranteed by the US Constitution, and are you, or are you not, being harassed by the police for no reason other than they "think" you are an illegal immigrant.

Do you, or do you not, therefore have grounds to state that your civil rights were violated by that same police officer..and as has been said on THIS FORUM,and I can link the thread, your car is an extension of your house, you have been subjected to repeated illegal search in direct violation of your Fourth Amendment rights?

I will be very interested to see just what the answer to this question is.Over to you.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 09:35 AM
A review done as part of the investigation found that 20 percent of traffic reports handled by Arpaio's immigrant-smuggling squad from March 2006 to March 2009 were stops — almost all involving Latino drivers — that were done without reasonable suspicion. The squad's stops rarely led to smuggling arrests. Reference this (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=5142)

and explain the discrepancy here, if you will...as to why one is fine because it is your "hero" Arpaio, and the other is "unconstitutional"

It's one or the other, folks

Bailey
12-20-2011, 09:44 AM
Reference this (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=5142)

and explain the discrepancy here, if you will...as to why one is fine because it is your "hero" Arpaio, and the other is "unconstitutional"

It's one or the other, folks



http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b10/lars1701c/2s8lova.jpg


I think he's right to investigate the people who are here illegally by the millions.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 09:52 AM
S'matter, Bailey, can't answer me and put that pic up insitead?

I'll make it easy for you.

Ref the thread I linked: Claimed by CU members in that thread: DUI stops are unconstitutional as they are a violation of your 4th amendment rights - the car is an extension of their home.

So why is it Arpaio can do the same thing to US citizens in their cars which are, as claimed in that thread, an extension of their home without due process and probable cause, and it ISNT a violation of their same rights?

Hm?


I think he's right to investigate the people who are here illegally by the millions.And i think you will find, if you actually read the article, that he is accused of stopping and searching US cIitizens on the basis they were Hispanic, and at the time of the search, had NO proof they were illegal.

Hence no probable cause.


The civil rights report said Latinos are four to nine times more likely to be stopped in traffic stops in Maricopa County than non-Latinos and that the agency's immigration policies treat Latinos as if they are all in the country illegally

Fifty years ago they were doing the same thing: to black drivers.

So he was stopping and searching ALL vehicles on one basis: they had Hispanic drivers.

Being Hispanc does not make one an illegal immigrant.

If one is a violation of the 4th amendment, so is the other.

Yes or no.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 10:01 AM
S'matter, Bailey, can't answer me and put that pic up insitead?

I'll make it easy for you.

Ref the thread I linked: Claimed by CU members in that thread: DUI stops are unconstitutional as they are a violation of your 4th amendment rights - the car is an extension of their home.

So why is it Arpaio can do the same thing to US citizens in their cars which are, as claimed in that thread, an extension of their home without due process and probable cause, and it ISNT a violation of their same rights?

Hm?

And i think you will find, if you actually read the article, that he is accused of stopping and searching US cIitizens on the basis they were Hispanic, and at the time of the search, had NO proof they were illegal.

Hence no probable cause.

If one is a violation of the 4th amendment, so is the other.

Yes or no.

Well I look at it the same way we should be handling Muslims, if you are one you should have a added level of scrutiny put upon you. So I really dont care if its a violation or not, we have millions of scum from mexico leaching billions of dollars from us not to mention all the crime they commit and you want to play nice? Why dont you worry about what your country is doing/did to the Aborigines then worry about what one sheriff has done in Arizona?

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 10:08 AM
Well I look at it the same way we should be handling Muslims, if you are one you should have a added level of scrutiny put upon you. So I really dont care if its a violation or not, we have millions of scum from mexico leaching billions of dollars from us not to mention all the crime they commit and you want to play nice? Why dont you worry about what your country is doing/did to the Aborigines then worry about what one sheriff has done in Arizona?Oooh look, a unicorn. Nice try Bailey and irrelevant, as well as ill informed.

One simple question, Bailey.

Regardless of race, creed or colour, the US Constitution applies equally to every single citizen, and is the law of the land. Said citizens are protected under the Bill of Rights, and in this case I refer specifically to the 4th amendment.

Yes or no.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 10:18 AM
Oooh look, a unicorn. Nice try Bailey and irrelevant, as well as ill informed.

One simple question, Bailey.

Regardless of race, creed or colour, the US Constitution applies equally to every single citizen, and is the law of the land. Said citizens are protected under the Bill of Rights, and in this case I refer specifically to the 4th amendment.

Yes or no.

It doesnt apply to illegals so you have to go root them out and if a few eggs must be broken to make an omelet so be it. I really dont care to play your game Sonna so why dont you go disappear till they print the article saying the Sheriff beats these so called charges or the one saying he will be re-elected by a landslide.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 10:24 AM
It doesnt apply to illegals so you have to go root them out and if a few eggs must be broken to make an omelet so be it.Ah i see, so you "must break a few eggs to make an omelette."

The funny part is , that you have no idea what you have just admitted to.


I really dont care to play your game Sonna so why dont you go disappear till they print the article saying the Sheriff beats these so called charges or the one saying he will be re-elected by a landslide.Those arent the only charges,. Bailey, go back and reread it. He is in deep shit.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 10:33 AM
Ah i see, so you "must break a few eggs to make an omelette."

The funny part is , that you have no idea what you have just admitted to.

Those arent the only charges,. Bailey, go back and reread it. He is in deep shit.

I should've just answered I dont care about the question in the first place instead of wasting my time :(


He's been in deep shit for years, he'll beat this witch hunt. Bank on it.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Too late, Bailey.

You yourself have proven that the stance taken by CU re the US Constitution is rank hypocrisy, given that to you, those same rights only apply to certain people or having the right skin colour.


It doesnt apply to illegals so you have to go root them out and if a few eggs must be broken to make an omelet so be it. And in reply Bailey, I will give you this: often quoted by CU members.


They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safetyYou, sir, are beneath contempt.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 10:43 AM
The worst that can happen to him is that he'll lose Federal funding or that'll have to kiss the ass of the Latino community. I am sure the AG of the justice dept wasn't pressured by obama or progressive elements to tar and feather this great man.


When the Feds are out to get you you're toast, so you are right that he is in deep shit. If he beats this they'll try to get him on something else till he's worn out.


I dont believe these finding plain and simple.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Too late, Bailey.

You yourself have proven that the stance taken by CU re the US Constitution is rank hypocrisy, given that to you, those same rights only apply to certain people or having the right skin colour.

And in reply Bailey, I will give you this: often quoted by CU members.

You, sir, are beneath contempt.

Well I am glad that i have earned that scorn from you. Now why dont you go away? :rolleyes:


Be sure to vote against this coming election...oh wait.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 10:49 AM
Unfortunately, Bailey, yet again, you have failed to read what was placed in front of you.

The documentation of HIS OWN OFFICE provided the material for these charges.


A review done as part of the investigation found that 20 percent of traffic reports handled by Arpaio's immigrant-smuggling squad from March 2006 to March 2009 were stops — almost all involving Latino drivers — that were done without reasonable suspicion. The squad's stops rarely led to smuggling arrests.and this


The report also said he and some top staffers tried to silence people who have spoken out against the sheriff's office by arresting people without cause, filing meritless lawsuits against opponents and starting investigations of criticGet it now?


Well I am glad that i have earned that scorn from you. Now why dont you go away?

Oh, I think that I wont be the only one who will have issues with what you have said today, Bailey.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 11:00 AM
Unfortunately, Bailey, yet again, you have failed to read what was placed in front of you.

The documentation of HIS OWN OFFICE provided the material for these charges.

and this

Get it now?



Oh, I think that I wont be the only one who will have issues with what you have said today, Bailey.



I really wish you'd stop confusing me with someone who cares. :confused:

You dont like the man and think he has broken the law (with an AG that loves going after white Americans and doesnt punish black Americans who break voter laws, i.e new black panther party) I dont think 20% is all that high a number considering how many latinos that live in that area. So should the other 80% complain that they were stopped?



He's not even facing any criminal charges so what the f#$k is going to happen to him? a slap on the wrist at worst.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 11:16 AM
Sonna I really don't care if anyone has issues with me over this matter, there is a war out there and I know its hard to see it where you are from but this good man is fighting it the best way he can. I hope these trumped up findings are thrown out and if not it will just prove that the feds care more for PC bullshit then fighting the tide of illegals.

Apache
12-20-2011, 12:31 PM
Oooh look, a unicorn. Nice try Bailey and irrelevant, as well as ill informed.

One simple question, Bailey.

Regardless of race, creed or colour, the US Constitution applies equally to every single citizen, and is the law of the land. Said citizens are protected under the Bill of Rights, and in this case I refer specifically to the 4th amendment.

Yes or no.

You seem to miss tthe point here, even though YOU say it... US citizens, not illegals..

Funny how this story comes out after the Supreme Court decides it will hear the case for Arizona's law. Also damn funny that the MCSO deals with mostly unincorperated areas of the county( you know, where most illegals live) People are fed up with,"Oh, the poor immigrants"...
With our economy the way it is, jobs... We've had it, Joe is standing up and taking charge in one area I can agree with him on.

txradioguy
12-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Your name is Ramon Martinez. You are a US citizen on your way home from work.

You are stopped and questioned by the MCSO repeatedly...for the crime of "driving whilst Hispanic"

Now tell me, Latino or not, are you, or are you not, entitled to the same civil rights of all other Americans, gauranteed by the US Constitution, and are you, or are you not, being harassed by the police for no reason other than they "think" you are an illegal immigrant.

Do you, or do you not, therefore have grounds to state that your civil rights were violated by that same police officer..and as has been said on THIS FORUM,and I can link the thread, your car is an extension of your house, you have been subjected to repeated illegal search in direct violation of your Fourth Amendment rights?

I will be very interested to see just what the answer to this question is.Over to you.

Hows that Christmas Island detention thing working out in Australia for you mate?

You guys still keeping illegals floating at sea on a ship? Beat anymore to a pulp when they riot?

I suggest you bloviating wanker...you lay off the piss...and clean up your own back yard before you go poking a finger at ours.

Get control of the paint sniffing Abo's torching cars and destroying their free government housing and then we'll talk.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 12:58 PM
Gator err sonna you are becoming a one trick pony.


I don't think the feds have any say in this matter until they start enforcing the integrity of the border.

NJCardFan
12-20-2011, 01:41 PM
Hows that Christmas Island detention thing working out in Australia for you mate?

You guys still keeping illegals floating at sea on a ship? Beat anymore to a pulp when they riot?

I suggest you bloviating wanker...you lay off the piss...and clean up your own back yard before you go poking a finger at ours.

Get control of the paint sniffing Abo's torching cars and destroying their free government housing and then we'll talk.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwpP2yBequs9gFQfThK_r8UkICCcYPd TBRqAOLey5dVCyz3aSXmHDn6MKh

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:03 PM
I love him. He treats jail like it's supposed to be treated and not like some extended vacation spot that the left feels it should be.

What is the purpose of prison?

Is it to punish people? inflicting as much suffering as discomfort as we can legally get away with?

Is it to protect society? removing people who cannot follow the laws of society so that they will not do harm to society?

Is it to rehabilitate law-breakers? giving people what they need in order to change their behaviors so that they can better be a part of society?

Is it all of those or just one?

I don't agree that a prison is supposed to be a torture factory where we unleash our sadistic fantasies on people, making them suffer as much as we can in order to punish them. I think that actually makes people worse off psychologically, and creates more dangerous criminals.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:07 PM
Oooh look, a unicorn. Nice try Bailey and irrelevant, as well as ill informed.

One simple question, Bailey.

Regardless of race, creed or colour, the US Constitution applies equally to every single citizen, and is the law of the land. Said citizens are protected under the Bill of Rights, and in this case I refer specifically to the 4th amendment.

Yes or no.

lol no it doesn't bailey made it very clear.

constitutional rights don't apply to brown people.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:11 PM
lol no it doesn't bailey made it very clear.

constitutional rights don't apply to brown people.

Nope if Swedish were here illegaly I'd be for the same treatment. I'm sorry they are brown wewe but such as life.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:12 PM
What is the purpose of prison?

Is it to punish people? inflicting as much suffering as discomfort as we can legally get away with?

Is it to protect society? removing people who cannot follow the laws of society so that they will not do harm to society?

Is it to rehabilitate law-breakers? giving people what they need in order to change their behaviors so that they can better be a part of society?

Is it all of those or just one?

I don't agree that a prison is supposed to be a torture factory where we unleash our sadistic fantasies on people, making them suffer as much as we can in order to punish them. I think that actually makes people worse off psychologically, and creates more dangerous criminals.

I kind of agree but we have to make it so bad they never want to come back.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:14 PM
You can't tell if someone is here illegally by looking at them. You said you are in favor of stripping latinos of their constitutional rights because their skin color matches the skin color of illegal immigrants. That's blatantly racist and unconstitutional.

You've said the same thing about muslims. For the most part, you can't tell if someone is a muslim just by looking at them. Still, you are in favor of stripping people of their constituional rights because of how they look or how they worship.

That's fine, if you really don't care what anyone thinks like you claim, you can just admit it.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:17 PM
You can't tell if someone is here illegally by looking at them. You said you are in favor of stripping latinos of their constitutional rights because their skin color matches the skin color of illegal immigrants. That's blatantly racist and unconstitutional.

You've said the same thing about muslims. For the most part, you can't tell if someone is a muslim just by looking at them. Still, you are in favor of stripping people of their constituional rights because of how they look or how they worship.

That's fine, if you really don't care what anyone thinks like you claim, you can just admit it.

Oh I'm sorry I forgot to mention that I also think people of any color should prove they are citizens of the USA at any traffic stop. I.e. a valid drivers lic

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:21 PM
You can't tell if someone is here illegally by looking at them. You said you are in favor of stripping latinos of their constitutional rights because their skin color matches the skin color of illegal immigrants. That's blatantly racist and unconstitutional.

You've said the same thing about muslims. For the most part, you can't tell if someone is a muslim just by looking at them. Still, you are in favor of stripping people of their constituional rights because of how they look or how they worship.

That's fine, if you really don't care what anyone thinks like you claim, you can just admit it.

I'm sorry if brown people are invading my country I didn't ask them to come, I also didn't ask Muslims to blow up buildings in my country either, some sacrifices have to be made.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:22 PM
I kind of agree but we have to make it so bad they never want to come back.

That's not how it works, you are basing this on a very serious misunderstanding of human psychology.

Think about this: children who violently abused by their parents don't develop a respect for authority. An abusive parent will say "well that little shit deserved being beaten, they didn't listen to me, they broke my rules", and they will proceed to harm the child. The child will only end up worse, and the abusive parent will say "well I must not be hard enough because the kid isn't learning". It simply isn't going to work.

The same applies to adults. If you damage a person's sense of self, if you degrade their sense of humanity, if you inflict insane amounts of suffering in a sadistic way, they will end up psychologically damaged. A person who develops psychological damage (or who's already existing psychological problems worsen) is not going to be able to function in society.

As it is, America has one of the harshest prison systems in the industrialized world. Compared to other western nations, our prison system is extreme. Some western nations won't even extradite criminals because they have deemed our prison system to be cruel and unusual punishment. We put people in solitary confinement more than any other western nation, we have harsher forms of prison control, we execute more people than anyone other than china and Iran, and we put more people in prison than any other nation in the world. Still, our recidivism rates are very high. This plan of just getting harsher and harsher isn't working. Criminals are coming out worse than they come in, and committing more crimes and ended up in prison again. Like an abusive parent, our country says "well we may be harsher than any other western nation, but it's not working, so we should be even harsher!"

Unfortunately, some people don't care about the prison system working, they just have hate in their hearts and want to abuse people, they want to torture people, they want to make people suffer and they feel criminals are fair game to unleash all their sadism on.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:26 PM
I'm sorry if brown people are invading my country I didn't ask them to come, I also didn't ask Muslims to blow up buildings in my country either, some sacrifices have to be made.

It doesn't matter if you asked anything. That doesn't give you, me, or the government the right to violate anyone's constitutional rights.

Religious groups have bombed abortion clinics and assassinated doctors, so should we now be targeting Christians? Should we ask everyone if they are a Christian and not let them buy guns? By your logic, that is valid.

Timothy McVeigh was very anti-government, and he committed the 2nd worse terrorist attack in US history. Should we be rounding up people who voice anti-government views? If you speak out against the government should the feds be allowed to spy on you, tap your phones, read your emails, and prevent you from buying guns or flying on planes?


Or does your logic only apply to brown-skinned people? Is it not really about terrorism or law-breaking and just an elaborate way to justify racism?

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:28 PM
That's not how it works, you are basing this on a very serious misunderstanding of human psychology.

Think about this: children who violently abused by their parents don't develop a respect for authority. An abusive parent will say "well that little shit deserved being beaten, they didn't listen to me, they broke my rules", and they will proceed to harm the child. The child will only end up worse, and the abusive parent will say "well I must not be hard enough because the kid isn't learning". It simply isn't going to work.

The same applies to adults. If you damage a person's sense of self, if you degrade their sense of humanity, if you inflict insane amounts of suffering in a sadistic way, they will end up psychologically damaged. A person who develops psychological damage (or who's already existing psychological problems worsen) is not going to be able to function in society.

As it is, America has one of the harshest prison systems in the industrialized world. Compared to other western nations, our prison system is extreme. Some western nations won't even extradite criminals because they have deemed our prison system to be cruel and unusual punishment. We put people in solitary confinement more than any other western nation, we have harsher forms of prison control, we execute more people than anyone other than china and Iran, and we put more people in prison than any other nation in the world. Still, our recidivism rates are very high. This plan of just getting harsher and harsher isn't working. Criminals are coming out worse than they come in, and committing more crimes and ended up in prison again. Like an abusive parent, our country says "well we may be harsher than any other western nation, but it's not working, so we should be even harsher!"

Unfortunately, some people don't care about the prison system working, they just have hate in their hearts and want to abuse people, they want to torture people, they want to make people suffer and they feel criminals are fair game to unleash all their sadism on.


So we should make it a pleasant experience so it won't damage their self worth?

NJCardFan
12-20-2011, 02:29 PM
What is the purpose of prison?

Is it to punish people? inflicting as much suffering as discomfort as we can legally get away with?

Is it to protect society? removing people who cannot follow the laws of society so that they will not do harm to society?

Is it to rehabilitate law-breakers? giving people what they need in order to change their behaviors so that they can better be a part of society?

Is it all of those or just one?

I don't agree that a prison is supposed to be a torture factory where we unleash our sadistic fantasies on people, making them suffer as much as we can in order to punish them. I think that actually makes people worse off psychologically, and creates more dangerous criminals.
Oh really. Is that why recidivism has gotten worse since prison reform? There's no incentive to stay out of jail. Now, am I asking for torture? No, but access to cakes and candy and ice cream and other goodies on commissary, televisions in their cells with free satellite TV? Radios, and other BS? I'm sure you think they should have all of these things.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:31 PM
It doesn't matter if you asked anything. That doesn't give you, me, or the government the right to violate anyone's constitutional rights.

Religious groups have bombed abortion clinics and assassinated doctors, so should we now be targeting Christians? Should we ask everyone if they are a Christian and not let them buy guns? By your logic, that is valid.

Timothy McVeigh was very anti-government, and he committed the 2nd worse terrorist attack in US history. Should we be rounding up people who voice anti-government views? If you speak out against the government should the feds be allowed to spy on you, tap your phones, read your emails, and prevent you from buying guns or flying on planes?


Or does your logic only apply to brown-skinned people? Is it not really about terrorism or law-breaking and just an elaborate way to justify racism?

Nope millions of illegals and billions of muzzies outweigh you argument. Until you come up with a workable solution I'll just keep backing people like Joe.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:37 PM
So we should make it a pleasant experience so it won't damage their self worth?
Are you only capable of thinking in extremes?

We should treat them like human beings, not like animals. If you treat a person like an animal they will behave like an animal. Some of them are already acting like animals but if you want that to change they need to be expected to act like human beings.

We should make it a humane experience so that they don't develop psychological damage from it or have their existing problems exacerbated.

We should give more psych treatment to the many prisoners who suffer from already-existing psychological problems, so they can overcome the problems that cause them to commit crimes.

We should focus on rehabilitation, offering more job training problems, education programs, therapy programs, church programs and more that will help them to better fit into society when they have done their time and get out.

there are other factors outside of the prison system that are contributing, and these ideas are not going to solve all the problems of course, but we should try these things rather than doubling down on what's currently not working.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 02:41 PM
Are you only capable of thinking in extremes?

We should treat them like human beings, not like animals. If you treat a person like an animal they will behave like an animal. Some of them are already acting like animals but if you want that to change they need to be expected to act like human beings.

We should make it a humane experience so that they don't develop psychological damage from it or have their existing problems exacerbated.

We should give more psych treatment to the many prisoners who suffer from already-existing psychological problems, so they can overcome the problems that cause them to commit crimes.

We should focus on rehabilitation, offering more job training problems, education programs, therapy programs, church programs and more that will help them to better fit into society when they have done their time and get out.

there are other factors outside of the prison system that are contributing, and these ideas are not going to solve all the problems of course, but we should try these things rather than doubling down on what's currently not working.


So I'm asking you, what level of punishment is acceptable? I'm a firm believer pain is a good motivator

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:47 PM
Oh really. Is that why recidivism has gotten worse since prison reform? There's no incentive to stay out of jail. Now, am I asking for torture? No, but access to cakes and candy and ice cream and other goodies on commissary, televisions in their cells with free satellite TV? Radios, and other BS? I'm sure you think they should have all of these things.

The war on drugs is a major problem, and it's something that needs to be addressed during any discussion of prison problems.

Look at the prison rates over the last several decades and you will see a huge spike that corresponds to the "surge" in the war on drugs.

Also, prisons need to hire fleets of psychological professionals to break gang activity. psych therapy should be mandatory.

You say there is no incentive to stay out of jail? Be honest with me, would you want to be a prisoner at the prison you work at? If not, there is obviously some incentive to stay out of there.

Yes they should have television and radio, and these should be earned privileges.

Privilege items should come along with good behavior and successful participation in rehabilitation programs.

If they are being problematic or if they are not putting effort into rehabilitation or treatment programs, then no they should not be allowed goodies.

However, there's no reason to strip them of everything that may give them enjoyment. They are already in prison, they already have no freedom. They can't leave, they can't be with their families, they can't move when they want to. That is their punishment, there's no need to try to punish them every step of the way.

They should have some level of responsibility for themselves, and letting them have goodies in exchange for good behavior helps.

Now there of course are going to be some people who simply can't be rehabilitated, and they will need special conditions, but you shouldnt use them as an excuse to abuse the entire prison population.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:55 PM
So I'm asking you, what level of punishment is acceptable? I'm a firm believer pain is a good motivator

Punishment is necessary, but not by itself. The punishment is being stripped of their freedom, their ability to do what they want, their ability to choose their own live, their ability to move around, their ability to be around their family. We don't need sadism on top of that.

I understand some prisoners are going to be a problem, and in that case they need punishment and the guards as well as other prisoners need to be kept safe. Some level of restraints are necessary. Some levels of solitary confinement are fine (although not excessive or for frivolous things. solitary confinement can be extremely brutal to a person with psychological problems, in fact it can even trigger psychosis in some people).

Even force is acceptable when it's necessary, if a prisoner is being violent they need to be put down using force or pepper sprays, however this should only be used to subdue them. When you have a prisoner on the ground and they are just being beaten over and over, that's way too far. However, yes force should be used to subdue a violent prisoner.

Other than that, we should be emphasizing rehabilitation, giving prisoners a sense of personal responsibility, education, job training, psych treatment, and religious counselling. I'm repeating myself now so you should get the point of my opinion here.


Pain can be a good motivator, but there's a limit and motivation works different for different people.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 02:56 PM
Nope millions of illegals and billions of muzzies outweigh you argument. Until you come up with a workable solution I'll just keep backing people like Joe.

Violating constitutional rights is not a workable solution.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 03:36 PM
Punishment is necessary, but not by itself. The punishment is being stripped of their freedom, their ability to do what they want, their ability to choose their own live, their ability to move around, their ability to be around their family. We don't need sadism on top of that.

I understand some prisoners are going to be a problem, and in that case they need punishment and the guards as well as other prisoners need to be kept safe. Some level of restraints are necessary. Some levels of solitary confinement are fine (although not excessive or for frivolous things. solitary confinement can be extremely brutal to a person with psychological problems, in fact it can even trigger psychosis in some people).

Even force is acceptable when it's necessary, if a prisoner is being violent they need to be put down using force or pepper sprays, however this should only be used to subdue them. When you have a prisoner on the ground and they are just being beaten over and over, that's way too far. However, yes force should be used to subdue a violent prisoner.

Other than that, we should be emphasizing rehabilitation, giving prisoners a sense of personal responsibility, education, job training, psych treatment, and religious counselling. I'm repeating myself now so you should get the point of my opinion here.


Pain can be a good motivator, but there's a limit and motivation works different for different people.

I agree withe for the most part but I think it should be a little bit tougher

txradioguy
12-20-2011, 03:43 PM
I agree withe for the most part but I think it should be a little bit tougher

Wee Wee only believes that pain is a good motivator when it comes to "re-educating" us racist white 1%'ers to the Communist way.

Bailey
12-20-2011, 04:52 PM
Wee Wee only believes that pain is a good motivator when it comes to "re-educating" us racist white 1%'ers to the Communist way.

To be fair I agree with what he says but when people like him control a prison system they always tend to coddle them inmates. I love when people like him says our prison system doesnt work but if you look at the reason crime has been falling since the 90's is the simple reason is WE ARE LOCKING CRIMINALS AWAY. Hugging them and telling them they are good people doesnt solve the problem.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 04:59 PM
I agree withe for the most part but I think it should be a little bit tougher

Well that's fair. How much force and punishment is a tricky issue. I don't know the exact amount either. Even professionals have different opinions on where to draw the line.

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 04:59 PM
Wee Wee only believes that pain is a good motivator when it comes to "re-educating" us racist white 1%'ers to the Communist way.

:rolleyes:

Zeus
12-20-2011, 05:13 PM
I haven't read the article or ensuing posts in this thread. Sheriff Joes defense record of previous claims of "rights" violations he is something like 7-0. Based on that alone ,even though he is Innocent until proven guilty, I'm of the opinion he is innocent.

The Man has his enemies and some won't let up until he is gone. I'm of the opinion some of his enemies aren't above criminal activity to that end.

Apache
12-20-2011, 05:34 PM
You can't tell if someone is here illegally by looking at them. You said you are in favor of stripping latinos of their constitutional rights because their skin color matches the skin color of illegal immigrants. That's blatantly racist and unconstitutional.

You've said the same thing about muslims. For the most part, you can't tell if someone is a muslim just by looking at them. Still, you are in favor of stripping people of their constituional rights because of how they look or how they worship.

That's fine, if you really don't care what anyone thinks like you claim, you can just admit it.

http://www.lolbrary.com/lolpics/42/crazy-straw-glasses-6042.jpg

Wei Wu Wei
12-20-2011, 05:53 PM
http://www.lolbrary.com/lolpics/42/crazy-straw-glasses-6042.jpg

That straw owns. I would totally use those.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 06:28 PM
Hows that Christmas Island detention thing working out in Australia for you mate?Dunno, the ranga is still arguing it. Mind youm, to solve that problem, the NSW police isnt stopping people of a certain skin coiour on the off chance they are illegals.

Arpaio is.


You guys still keeping illegals floating at sea on a ship? Beat anymore to a pulp when they riot?Dont know where you read that, but if you refer to hulks, that was Britain, and that was three hundred years ago.


I suggest you bloviating wanker...you lay off the piss...and clean up your own back yard before you go poking a finger at ours.Coming from someone whose sworn duty is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States? Man, was I right about you.

Get control of the paint sniffing Abo's torching cars and destroying their free government housing and then we'll talk.[/quote]

Get help. Seriously.

You dont get it do you, your "hero" has been arresting and searching without probable cause, any and all US citizens, on no other premise other than the colour of their skin.

And you're okay with that?

Bailey
12-20-2011, 06:33 PM
Dunno, the ranga is still arguing it. Mind youm, to solve that problem, the NSW police isnt stopping people of a certain skin coiour on the off chance they are illegals.

Arpaio is.

Dont know where you read that, but if you refer to hulks, that was Britain, and that was three hundred years ago.

Coming from someone whose sworn duty is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States? Man, was I right about you.

Get control of the paint sniffing Abo's torching cars and destroying their free Get help. Seriously.

You dont get it do you, your "hero" has been arresting and searching without probable cause, any and all US citizens, on no other premise other than the colour of their skin.

And you're okay with that?

Are you drinking? sure seems like you are.

Sonnabend
12-20-2011, 06:58 PM
Are you drinking? sure seems like you are.

Nope. Man, you keep coming up with these wonderful red herrings...lemme get the barbie.

Btw, another incident in one of Arpaios jails has another Hispanic man fighting for his life.

This one's a Gulf War vet. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/12/19/arpaio-controversy-latino-vet-injured_n_1158637.html)

NJCardFan
12-20-2011, 09:48 PM
Also, prisons need to hire fleets of psychological professionals to break gang activity. psych therapy should be mandatory.

You say there is no incentive to stay out of jail? Be honest with me, would you want to be a prisoner at the prison you work at? If not, there is obviously some incentive to stay out of there.

Yes they should have television and radio, and these should be earned privileges.



Wow, you think this is the way prison is? Would I want to be in my prison if I were an inmate? In a country second. It's air conditioned, has several recreation periods a day, free college courses, my place is a frigging vacation spot.

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 01:30 AM
Wow, you think this is the way prison is? Would I want to be in my prison if I were an inmate? In a country second. It's air conditioned, has several recreation periods a day, free college courses, my place is a frigging vacation spot.

So why don't you land yourself in prison? If it's such a cakewalk vacation, why aren't you an inmate?

You sound like you work hard, who wouldn't want a cushy vacation?

Unless of course you're full of it.

txradioguy
12-21-2011, 04:46 AM
Dunno, the ranga is still arguing it. Mind youm, to solve that problem, the NSW police isnt stopping people of a certain skin coiour on the off chance they are illegals

No they aren't even letting them get to the country. They are stopping them at sea and then shoving them onto Christmas Island into an over crowded detention center.

The Malaysians getting rounded up would disagree with you about being stopped because of their skin color.


Arpaio is.

Until Obama and Holder took over what Arpaio is doing...checking to make sure people aren't here illegally was perfectly legal. Were Obama not in office it still would be.

Perhaps you'd prefer that we have the problem you do in Oz...bands of Lebanese running wild in motorcycle gangs slinging drugs and murdering people in broad daylight in your cities.

Yeah...that's MUCH better. :rolleyes:


Dont know where you read that, but if you refer to hulks, that was Britain, and that was three hundred years ago.

http://articles.cnn.com/keyword/asylum-seekers


Coming from someone whose sworn duty is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?

Do that on a daily basis Champ. And part of that is to protect the country from enemies foreign and domestic. I'd say that illegals...members of gangs and running drugs counts as a foreign enemy.


Man, was I right about you.

You no nothing about me Champ. If you did you wouldn't talk like some ignorant two headed pig farmer from Tazmania.



Get help. Seriously.

Yeah thought you'd say something like that. What's the matter Champ...don't like it when people point out the problems with YOUR country and what a shambles it is right now?


You dont get it do you, your "hero" has been arresting and searching without probable cause, any and all US citizens, on no other premise other than the colour of their skin.

Other than you running your extremely large sewer about this...there hasn't been any evidence to back up what you say.


And you're okay with that?

Look Champ...just because you've drank the Workers Party kool-aid and are all warm and fuzzy with their being no borders between any country ever doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

What I'm ok with is our law enforcement protecting out citizens as is proscribed by our constitution. If your Workers Party buddies and the idiots in the Green Party want to fuck up YOUR country...go ahead...but quit trying to make us like you.

Hell most of your country doesn't think like you. The military I worked with certainly doesn't.

txradioguy
12-21-2011, 05:23 AM
Coming from someone whose sworn duty is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States? Man, was I right about you.


Since you want to keep yammering on senselessly about this point let me educate you a bit champ:


Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution


"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

http://www.immivasion.us/art4sect4/art4sect4.html


You like to insinuate I don't protect the Constitution like I have sword to do because I agree with Sheriff Arpaio.

Yet according to the Constitution...I am upholding and defending the Constitution when I agree with Apraio...and more importantly...Sheriff Arpaio is upholding the Constitution.


Eat a dick champ...and go peddle your Worker's Party open borders bullshit somewhere else.

Bailey
12-21-2011, 08:10 AM
Since you want to keep yammering on senselessly about this point let me educate you a bit champ:



http://www.immivasion.us/art4sect4/art4sect4.html


You like to insinuate I don't protect the Constitution like I have sword to do because I agree with Sheriff Arpaio.

Yet according to the Constitution...I am upholding and defending the Constitution when I agree with Apraio...and more importantly...Sheriff Arpaio is upholding the Constitution.


Eat a dick champ...and go peddle your Worker's Party open borders bullshit somewhere else.


This is the point I was trying to make to sonna, this country is being invaded and he is trying to repel the invasion.

txradioguy
12-21-2011, 09:35 AM
This is the point I was trying to make to sonna, this country is being invaded and he is trying to repel the invasion.

That's because Sonna seems to have cast his lot with the Workers Party in Oz. They are pro open borders.

Starbuck
12-21-2011, 10:00 AM
AP Story, go to link>http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-feds-arpaio-violated-civil-rights-164947314.html
Good article. Arpaio won by getting 55% of the vote in '08. That's down a bit from '04 and 2000, but still a good margin. He's been there since '92. Looks to me like the only way the feds will be able to get him out of office is to drag him away in chains.

Interesting guy. Who knew he was born to Italian parents in Massachusetts and spent 25 years with DEA?!

Born in 1932, I could understand why he would retire this next year. But I'd be sorry to see him go. If he runs for re-election, I'd be happy to contribute to his campaign fund.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Bailey
12-21-2011, 10:06 AM
Good article. Arpaio won by getting 55% of the vote in '08. That's down a bit from '04 and 2000, but still a good margin. He's been there since '92. Looks to me like the only way the feds will be able to get him out of office is to drag him away in chains.

Interesting guy. Who knew he was born to Italian parents in Massachusetts and spent 25 years with DEA?!

Born in 1932, I could understand why he would retire this next year. But I'd be sorry to see him go. If he runs for re-election, I'd be happy to contribute to his campaign fund.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

He'll leave when he wants to leave and damn the feds, f#$k them to hell for not doing their job of keep the border secure. I have nothing against brown or black people but brown people are invading this country and if their sensitivities are hurt so be it. If white people were invading this country at the level mexicans are doing now I'd believe in doing the same thing.

Sonnabend
12-21-2011, 10:13 AM
That's because Sonna seems to have cast his lot with the Workers Party in Oz. They are pro open borders

Actually I am not a member of any political party. What I am is stunned by the level of hypocrisy i am seeing.

For years, I have heard here, time and again, the US Constitution is the law of the land, the rights accorded to its citizens sacrosanct..yet here you have a sheriff, sworn to uphold the law, actively and deliberately arresting, detaining and questioning US citizens on the pretext to check if they are illegals..and you defend him and his actions?


Other than you running your extremely large sewer about this...there hasn't been any evidence to back up what you say.The evidence is in their own reports in their own offices, in their own words, that have already verified what they have done. The evidence was in the filing cabinets.


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.Regardless of what he is doing to curb illegal immigration, the moment he arrested, detained and questioned a US citizen without warrant, charge or probable cause based on the colour of their skin and nothing else, he violated their civil rights.

Seems clear cut to me.

Tipsycatlover
12-21-2011, 10:49 AM
The administration wants to do to Arpaio judicially what they did to Brian Terry.

Apache
12-21-2011, 12:35 PM
For years, I have heard here, time and again, the US Constitution is the law of the land, the rights accorded to its citizens sacrosanct..yet here you have a sheriff, sworn to uphold the law, actively and deliberately arresting, detaining and questioning US citizens on the pretext to check if they are illegals..and you defend him and his actions?See, this is where you are wrong...You make it sound as if his department js going out and looking for Mexicans, they aren't. If they are on scene for a CRIME and the person/s cannot prove they are here leagally (drivers licence, state ID, greencard, passport) they are then detained to determine status...


The evidence is in their own reports in their own offices, in their own words, that have already verified what they have done. The evidence was in the filing cabinets.Evidence that has yet to be seen. The article says they have some, have YOU seen them?


Regardless of what he is doing to curb illegal immigration, the moment he arrested, detained and questioned a US citizen without warrant, charge or probable cause based on the colour of their skin and nothing else, he violated their civil rights.

Seems clear cut to me.So clear cut, that you miss what he is doing, and blindly attack for what you THINK he is doing... Stop being so blinded by your hate for the man and actually SEE what's going on...

NJCardFan
12-21-2011, 01:08 PM
See, this is where you are wrong...You make it sound as if his department js going out and looking for Mexicans, they aren't. If they are on scene for a CRIME and the person/s cannot prove they are here leagally (drivers licence, state ID, greencard, passport) they are then detained to determine status...

Evidence that has yet to be seen. The article says they have some, have YOU seen them?

So clear cut, that you miss what he is doing, and blindly attack for what you THINK he is doing... Stop being so blinded by your hate for the man and actually SEE what's going on...

Sonna won't do that. He makes it seem like the sheriff's department is rounding up Mexican looking people and putting them in corral's until they can ascertain their citizenship. And it's funny how Sonna says that Arpaio isn't upholding the Constitution when in reality, what Arpaio is doing is upholding Federal law. The other thing I find funny is how Sonna has completely ignored the aspersions thrown his way about how Australia deals with illegal immigration.

Apache
12-21-2011, 01:48 PM
.... The other thing I find funny is how Sonna has completely ignored the aspersions thrown his way about how Australia deals with illegal immigration.

America is suppposed to absorb these invaders, when no other country on Earth does it the way we do. Hell even Canada has more stringent standards than we do. I won't even bother with the Mexican way of dealing with illeagals... He picture it differently if he had the problems we do...

txradioguy
12-21-2011, 01:58 PM
America is suppposed to absorb these invaders, when no other country on Earth does it the way we do. Hell even Canada has more stringent standards than we do. I won't even bother with the Mexican way of dealing with illeagals... He picture it differently if he had the problems we do...

Mexico's punishment for being caught in the country illegally is actually more sever than ours.

Last time I researched it...over 50% of the Mexican military is positioned south of Mexico City guarding a southern border that resembles the DMZ in Korea.

Mexico is using us to get rid of their poor population.

Yet we are the ones with the intolerable immigration policies.:roll eyes:

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 03:27 PM
Sonna won't do that. He makes it seem like the sheriff's department is rounding up Mexican looking people and putting them in corral's until they can ascertain their citizenship. And it's funny how Sonna says that Arpaio isn't upholding the Constitution when in reality, what Arpaio is doing is upholding Federal law. The other thing I find funny is how Sonna has completely ignored the aspersions thrown his way about how Australia deals with illegal immigration.

It doesn't matter if he's doing it in the name of federal law if he's violating constitutional rights while doing it.

For example, drug possession and dealing is against the law, so let's say at any traffic stop, should a cop be able to search your vehicle and administer a drug test? Should they be able to confiscate your phone and search your text messages to make sure there's no drug dealing or other illegal activities mentioned? After all, they are just upholding the law right?

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 03:29 PM
America should be using it's weight as an economic powerhouse and primary trader with Mexico to put leverage on the Mexican government to enact policies that help their poor population.

If the people of Mexico are doing better, there will be less poor people crossing the border looking for opportunity.

Of course this wouldn't work if American business interests benefit from Mexican low wages and cheap illegal labor.

Apache
12-21-2011, 03:29 PM
Yet we are the ones with the intolerable immigration policies.:roll eyes:

Well when you toss common-sense out the window... ;)

Apache
12-21-2011, 03:33 PM
America should be using it's weight as an economic powerhouse and primary trader with Mexico to put leverage on the Mexican government to enact policies that help their poor population.

If the people of Mexico are doing better, there will be less poor people crossing the border looking for opportunity.

Of course this wouldn't work if American business interests benefit from Mexican low wages and cheap illegal labor.

Yeah right and have people like you scream about American imperialism...The funny thing is, the OWSer's have more of a beef with Mexico than America ;)

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 03:34 PM
It doesn't matter what other countries do. I love how there's this unyielding sense of American Exceptionalism, but whenever flaws are pointed out the same exceptionalists start saying "well other countries do it too! they are worse!".

Major hypocrisy

If you believe in American Exceptionalism then you shouldn't give two shits about comparing us to other countries, we should be upholding our own values and our own constitution.

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 03:36 PM
Yeah right and have people like you scream about American imperialism...The funny thing is, the OWSer's have more of a beef with Mexico than America ;)

Fair enough, you got me there.

Anyway, it's a moot point because American business has a vested interests in keeping foreign work forces poor and cheap illegal labor in the US.

txradioguy
12-21-2011, 03:39 PM
Yeah right and have people like you scream about American imperialism...The funny thing is, the OWSer's have more of a beef with Mexico than America ;)

My dad did business with a Milling Company out of Mexico a few years back...had a chance to talk to one of the execs that was about my age...he told me that the rich ruling class in Mexico send the poor north as their way of "dealing" with the poor.

There is no middle class per se in Mexico...just rich and poor. And the rich hate to have their drive to the country club messed up by poor people milling about on the streets...so they send them north to the U.S. to get rid of them.

My point is that no matter how much we use our economic "might" to try and force Mexico to reign in their illegals...they aren't going to do it. As far as they are concerned...they have found a solution and have no plan to change it for the foreseeable future.

Apache
12-21-2011, 03:47 PM
It doesn't matter if he's doing it in the name of federal law if he's violating constitutional rights while doing it.

What rights are being violated? These people are being contacted while a investigation is underway (traffic stop, theft, murder...etc). Now if I can't prove who I am, I get hauled in until it is determined that I am lying or not... DEAL WITH IT ;)

Apache
12-21-2011, 03:49 PM
My dad did business with a Milling Company out of Mexico a few years back...had a chance to talk to one of the execs that was about my age...he told me that the rich ruling class in Mexico send the poor north as their way of "dealing" with the poor.

There is no middle class per se in Mexico...just rich and poor. And the rich hate to have their drive to the country club messed up by poor people milling about on the streets...so they send them north to the U.S. to get rid of them.

My point is that no matter how much we use our economic "might" to try and force Mexico to reign in their illegals...they aren't going to do it. As far as they are concerned...they have found a solution and have no plan to change it for the foreseeable future.

Turn around Pastor, the congregation is behind you :p

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 03:59 PM
My dad did business with a Milling Company out of Mexico a few years back...had a chance to talk to one of the execs that was about my age...he told me that the rich ruling class in Mexico send the poor north as their way of "dealing" with the poor.

There is no middle class per se in Mexico...just rich and poor. And the rich hate to have their drive to the country club messed up by poor people milling about on the streets...so they send them north to the U.S. to get rid of them.

Who does all of the hard labor in Mexico?




My point is that no matter how much we use our economic "might" to try and force Mexico to reign in their illegals...they aren't going to do it. As far as they are concerned...they have found a solution and have no plan to change it for the foreseeable future.

The enormous wealth and income inequality is something to be concerned about, but that's normally praised in the US. I thought having high income inequality was a good thing?

Mexico is a haven for big business. The economic activity of the top 10% has been absolutely BOOMING. Their manufacturing sector has grown, making them the top auto producer in North America, surpassing both the US and canada.

Yet, their minimum wage is just over $3, where is the trickle down?

Mexico has been following policies that are being trumpeted here, put big business first, create a pro-business environment, reduce worker protection laws and agencies, and let the wealth trickle down. It simply hasn't happened. The wealth inequality in Mexico has exploded over the past couple decades.

It's been terrible for working people in Mexico, but it has been wonderful for the wealthy ruling class, who have been reaping all of the benefits.

Apache
12-21-2011, 04:42 PM
Who does all of the hard labor in Mexico?





The enormous wealth and income inequality is something to be concerned about, but that's normally praised in the US. I thought having high income inequality was a good thing?

Mexico is a haven for big business. The economic activity of the top 10% has been absolutely BOOMING. Their manufacturing sector has grown, making them the top auto producer in North America, surpassing both the US and canada.

Yet, their minimum wage is just over $3, where is the trickle down?

Mexico has been following policies that are being trumpeted here, put big business first, create a pro-business environment, reduce worker protection laws and agencies, and let the wealth trickle down. It simply hasn't happened. The wealth inequality in Mexico has exploded over the past couple decades.

It's been terrible for working people in Mexico, but it has been wonderful for the wealthy ruling class, who have been reaping all of the benefits.

TWo very different systems of government...Jackass...and you DAMN WELL KNOW IT!

Stop being such an ass... for once in your life

Sonnabend
12-21-2011, 06:43 PM
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/12/sheriff_arpaio_oversaw_worst_r.php


A study commissioned by the Justice Department found that "Latino drivers are four-to-nine times more likely to be stopped than similarly situated non-Latino drivers."

A fifth of all the immigration-sweep traffic stops violated Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizures.


* A legal U.S. resident and his U.S. citizen son invited deputies into their home during a raid on a suspect drop-house next door. The deputies proceeded to search the home without consent or a warrant, handcuffed the man and his son, then had them sit on the sidewalk next to the people being busted from the neighboring house. They were detained for an hour before being released without any citation.
The Justice Department noted one time when Arpaio told his enforcement chief to check into a report that employees at a Sun City McDonald's were speaking Spanish.

You can bury your herads in the sand all yiou like, and throw all the insults you like, but the facts are there.

I think CU has had its day. No conservatives here...just the local Arpaio fanboi club.

Seeya.

Apache
12-21-2011, 07:19 PM
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/12/sheriff_arpaio_oversaw_worst_r.php





You can bury your herads in the sand all yiou like, and throw all the insults you like, but the facts are there.

I think CU has had its day. No conservatives here...just the local Arpaio fanboi club.

Seeya.

You're the one with his head up his ass, sorry sonna. The NEW TIMES!? THE FREAKIN' NEW TIMES?!?

DO you have ANY clue as to what the New Times is? They can't even sell the New Times, they GIVE that gaRBAGE AWAY FREE!!!! It is filled with escort ads and massage parlor discounts... Birds have DIED trying to shit enough to cover the lining of the cages when it was used...

Now if you want to come up with CREDIBLE sources, have at it ;)

NJCardFan
12-21-2011, 08:07 PM
You're the one with his head up his ass, sorry sonna. The NEW TIMES!? THE FREAKIN' NEW TIMES?!?

DO you have ANY clue as to what the New Times is? They can't even sell the New Times, they GIVE that gaRBAGE AWAY FREE!!!! It is filled with escort ads and massage parlor discounts... Birds have DIED trying to shit enough to cover the lining of the cages when it was used...

Now if you want to come up with CREDIBLE sources, have at it ;)
I was going to say the same thing. Shame he had to dig this deep to find a medium that reflected his world view. We have a saying of what that is. It's called reaching. What next, Sonna. Gonna get your news from The Onion next?

Apache
12-21-2011, 08:10 PM
I was going to say the same thing. Shame he had to dig this deep to find a medium that reflected his world view. We have a saying of what that is. It's called reaching. What next, Sonna. Gonna get your news from The Onion next?

The Onion has some truth to it...;)

Apache
12-21-2011, 08:17 PM
I was going to say the same thing. Shame he had to dig this deep to find a medium that reflected his world view. We have a saying of what that is. It's called reaching. What next, Sonna. Gonna get your news from The Onion next?

I don't like Joe, I really don't. I will be damned however, to let a clear SMEAR go against anyone. I like Sonnabend, dammit... He just doesn't seem like the man I knew...:(

Wei Wu Wei
12-21-2011, 09:02 PM
Attack the source when you can't dispute the information.

You could pin a report to the bib on a baby with a dirty diaper. If the information is true, it doesn't matter if you got it from a baby. When are people going to learn this?

Zeus
12-21-2011, 10:11 PM
Attack the source when you can't dispute the information.

You could pin a report to the bib on a baby with a dirty diaper. If the information is true, it doesn't matter if you got it from a baby. When are people going to learn this?

As of yet regardless of the source those are just allegations. Also as mentioned previous claims of rights violations have been proven to be unfounded, something like 7 times. Also what about the accused constitutional protection of innocent until proven guilty.

Apache
12-21-2011, 11:01 PM
Attack the source when you can't dispute the information.

You could pin a report to the bib on a baby with a dirty diaper. If the information is true, it doesn't matter if you got it from a baby. When are people going to learn this?

WHEN YOU GO TO A WATER FOUTAIN, YOU EXPECT WATER, NOT SEWAGE.


Try not to be an ass....

NJCardFan
12-22-2011, 12:12 AM
Attack the source when you can't dispute the information.
Huh. Typical hypocrisy from those on the left, wee. You and your ilk make hypocrisy an artform. If you truly believe what you say, then what do you say about this?
http://images.sodahead.com/blogs/000261755/preview_foxlies_xlarge.png

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001561903/474199476_fox_news_stay_ignorant_xlarge.jpeg

http://kaystreet.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/fauxnews_450.png?w=450&h=306


I await your dance around this with baited breath. :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
12-22-2011, 12:27 AM
Huh. Typical hypocrisy from those on the left, wee. You and your ilk make hypocrisy an artform. If you truly believe what you say, then what do you say about this?
http://images.sodahead.com/blogs/000261755/preview_foxlies_xlarge.png

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001561903/474199476_fox_news_stay_ignorant_xlarge.jpeg

http://kaystreet.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/fauxnews_450.png?w=450&h=306


I await your dance around this with baited breath. :rolleyes:

1. You shouldn't expect me to reply to things that you direct at "all liberals" or "all leftists". This is a stupid tactic, saying "liberals say X, so you defend it". I do not speak for all left-leaning people and in fact I find many disagreements with many left-leaning people. If you want to talk about what I think, or what I have to say, that's fine, but "all left-leaning people" is not some formless chimera that I represent. This is a classic strawman.

2. Rather than talking about Fox News lying, I will discuss Fox News being a propaganda machine. Fox News is certainly a propaganda outlet, but if, during their constant propaganda output, they quote facts, figures, or quotes, I'm not going to deny the legitimacy of those facts, figures, or quotes just because they're coming from a propaganda outlet.

For example, Fox News loves to point out that wealthy Americans pay the lion's share of all income taxes taken in, and I've never once denied that reality. It may be part of a distortion regarding wealth inequality and tax policy, but that statement is still true.

Sonnabend
12-22-2011, 02:59 AM
The National Enquirer broke the Edwards story. No one believed them either.

They do now.

txradioguy
12-22-2011, 05:05 AM
The National Enquirer broke the Edwards story. No one believed them either.

They do now.


So that's the best you've got champ?

After all your bluster and bloody high brow talk about how we don't uphold our Constitution...after all the big noting about how you are a stronger believer in our Constitution...this is the best retort you've got after being shown exactly what Article 4 really says?

You used to be a Conservative worthy of your status here...now you've become a pathetic joke.

Go back to minding our own bizzo champ. You don't know our Constitution from Bourke Street.

You're talking out your clacker and it shows.

NJCardFan
12-22-2011, 05:31 AM
1. You shouldn't expect me to reply to things that you direct at "all liberals" or "all leftists". This is a stupid tactic, saying "liberals say X, so you defend it". I do not speak for all left-leaning people and in fact I find many disagreements with many left-leaning people. If you want to talk about what I think, or what I have to say, that's fine, but "all left-leaning people" is not some formless chimera that I represent. This is a classic strawman.

2. Rather than talking about Fox News lying, I will discuss Fox News being a propaganda machine. Fox News is certainly a propaganda outlet, but if, during their constant propaganda output, they quote facts, figures, or quotes, I'm not going to deny the legitimacy of those facts, figures, or quotes just because they're coming from a propaganda outlet.

For example, Fox News loves to point out that wealthy Americans pay the lion's share of all income taxes taken in, and I've never once denied that reality. It may be part of a distortion regarding wealth inequality and tax policy, but that statement is still true.


Attack the source when you can't dispute the information.

I await your dance around this with baited breath.
http://www.deviantart.com/download/128492896/Dancing_Avatar__Base_Tutorial_by_Kosetsu.gif
Can't say I didn't call this one.

Sonnabend
12-22-2011, 06:37 AM
You used to be a Conservative worthy of your status here...now you've become a pathetic jokeI'd say the same of you, TX, can't sday as I am surprised though, i can see where you got that abusive, vicious streak from.

You have consistently and repeatedly ignored the very real facts as I have posted them. Why is anyones guess.

I'll repost it for you anyway

Dealing with illegals is one thing, arbitrarily ansd repeatedly arresting, detaining and interrogating US citizens without due process or probable cause is a violation of the 4th amendment.

Yiou can bluster all you like, but the growing number of issues regarding your "hero", the deaths in custody, the repeated removals of accreditation, the lawsuits that have cost the state millions, one incident may be a rarity, two maybe not, but when over the space of years that list of issues, complaints, lawsuits and investigations begins to mount up, it's time to take off the fanboi goggles and stop to think that there may very well be something rotten in the state of Denmark

Even you cannot be so blind as to imagine that they are all out to "get him", one day soon, i predict that a lot of information will be coming up, and all of a sudden your hero will be exposed for who and what he is.

My understandng of the Constitution is quite extensive, as you yourself and others have acknowledged frequently.

I do have one question.

Is part of your job at CC to run others off CU?

It seems like it to me...the TX I knew was a reasoned, if not emphatic man, you come off like a rabid, screeching harpy.

Why is that, i wonder?

djones520
12-22-2011, 06:38 AM
Tx no longer posts at CC, left a while ago. So you can just leave that trail of thinking out of this.

Sonnabend
12-22-2011, 06:48 AM
Bye.

Bailey
12-22-2011, 06:57 AM
Bye.

Good riddance

Sonnabend
12-22-2011, 09:48 AM
Jones, I will think whatever I damned well please, and if you cant handle that, I suggest you file it in that deep dark place the sun dont shine. :D:D:D

DumbAss Tanker
12-22-2011, 10:26 AM
What a shock...that Holder's DOJ would decide Arpaio had done that...

:rolleyes:

txradioguy
12-22-2011, 10:38 AM
I'd say the same of you, TX, can't sday as I am surprised though, i can see where you got that abusive, vicious streak from.

You have consistently and repeatedly ignored the very real facts as I have posted them. Why is anyones guess.

I'll repost it for you anyway

Dealing with illegals is one thing, arbitrarily ansd repeatedly arresting, detaining and interrogating US citizens without due process or probable cause is a violation of the 4th amendment.

Yiou can bluster all you like, but the growing number of issues regarding your "hero", the deaths in custody, the repeated removals of accreditation, the lawsuits that have cost the state millions, one incident may be a rarity, two maybe not, but when over the space of years that list of issues, complaints, lawsuits and investigations begins to mount up, it's time to take off the fanboi goggles and stop to think that there may very well be something rotten in the state of Denmark

Even you cannot be so blind as to imagine that they are all out to "get him", one day soon, i predict that a lot of information will be coming up, and all of a sudden your hero will be exposed for who and what he is.

My understandng of the Constitution is quite extensive, as you yourself and others have acknowledged frequently.

I do have one question.

Is part of your job at CC to run others off CU?

It seems like it to me...the TX I knew was a reasoned, if not emphatic man, you come off like a rabid, screeching harpy.

Why is that, i wonder?

Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution


"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

http://www.immivasion.us/art4sect4/art4sect4.html

Perhaps you can post specifics of that Article and Section of the U.S. Constitution I have failed to uphold or that Sheriff Arpaio has violated.

I know you won't because you can't It's easier for you to sit on your morally superior one trick pony and spew vague generalities about something that you know nothing about.

And it's pretty obvious you're talking out your clacker about the U.S. Constitution because if you really knew about our Constitution you wouldn't be saying such stupid shit.

So come on...provide the details of where Article 4 is being violated.

You CAN do that can't you...champ?

Novaheart
12-22-2011, 02:58 PM
Your name is Ramon Martinez. You are a US citizen on your way home from work.

You are stopped and questioned by the MCSO repeatedly...for the crime of "driving whilst Hispanic"

Now tell me, Latino or not, are you, or are you not, entitled to the same civil rights of all other Americans, gauranteed by the US Constitution, and are you, or are you not, being harassed by the police for no reason other than they "think" you are an illegal immigrant.

Do you, or do you not, therefore have grounds to state that your civil rights were violated by that same police officer..and as has been said on THIS FORUM,and I can link the thread, your car is an extension of your house, you have been subjected to repeated illegal search in direct violation of your Fourth Amendment rights?

I will be very interested to see just what the answer to this question is.Over to you.

I can't speak for Maricopa County. In Pinellas County if you are pulled over fro driving while looking latino, and your drivers license is valid, your registration is valid, and your insurance card is present, then you don't get arrested.

If you don't have a drivers license (and an inordinate number of Latino Americans don't for some reason, and no illegal alien should have a US drivers license) then you are going to go to the jailhouse for booking, at which time the Pinellas Sharif will look into your immigration status, warrants, deportation orders, etc... and you will be marked "no bond, courtesy hold for ICE" or "no bond courtesy hold for USMS".

I hope that cleared it up for you.

Novaheart
12-22-2011, 03:03 PM
So why is it Arpaio can do the same thing to US citizens in their cars which are, as claimed in that thread, an extension of their home without due process and probable cause, and it ISNT a violation of their same rights?

First off, you are contradicting yourself here. The DUI stops objected to are random or blanket stops of drivers on a given route for no cause other than passing through the enforcement zone or checkpoint. You aren't being pulled over because you look like a drunk (see pictures of Congressmen) , you are being pulled over because you are driving down Park Blvd at 11 PM on Friday evening. As such, these are stops without probable cause or warrantless searches.

Your claim is that Roland Martinez is being pulled over because he looks Latino. If that were the case, then the MCSO would have been properly busted for it a long time ago. No, Roland is being pulled over because he either committed an infraction or because his tag came back with a problem. In the course of the stop, the police officer will then check on Roland's warrants and status as he would anyone. If Roland doesn't have a drivers license and doesn't speak English, then you now have three signs of being an illegal alien, don't you?

Novaheart
12-22-2011, 03:06 PM
He is in deep shit.

Really? So the Justice Dept actually knows (not thinks) that the MCSO is violating the rights of US citizens on a daily basis in a most harmful way and they are allowing Arpaio to remain in control of his department while they investigate and sue him?

That would almost seem like the Justice Department is now the one violating peoples' rights, wouldn't it?

No, you don't leave a criminal sheriff in place while you do him in. You leave a political target in place while you try to do him. in.

txradioguy
12-22-2011, 04:29 PM
Really? So the Justice Dept actually knows (not thinks) that the MCSO is violating the rights of US citizens on a daily basis in a most harmful way and they are allowing Arpaio to remain in control of his department while they investigate and sue him?

That would almost seem like the Justice Department is now the one violating peoples' rights, wouldn't it?

No, you don't leave a criminal sheriff in place while you do him in. You leave a political target in place while you try to do him. in.

Since we agree on this my guess is Sonna will accuse me of being a Lib.:D

jendf
12-22-2011, 04:35 PM
Bye.

Bye! I'll think of you when I vote for him again next year. It will be my fifth time doing so! :D

txradioguy
12-22-2011, 05:17 PM
Sheriff Paul Babeu of Pinal County, Ariz., said that Attorney General Eric Holder’s recent attacks on his colleague, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., were an attempt to take public attention off of Operation Fast and Furious.

“The fact [that the Department of Justice] chose today to release their findings was only done to take the attention away from themselves,” Babeu said in a press release, according to Sonoran News. “Today marks the one year anniversary since the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.”

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/22/az-sherriff-doj-attack-on-arpaio-an-attempt-to-distract-from-fast-and-furious/#ixzz1hIhGml8i

Bailey
12-22-2011, 05:22 PM
Since we agree on this my guess is Sonna will accuse me of being a Lib.:D

I think the world is coming to an end if you guys agree :( :D

txradioguy
12-22-2011, 05:25 PM
I think the world is coming to an end if you guys agree :( :D

It's rare when it happens...but I have no problem pointing out when we do agree.

Zeus
12-22-2011, 07:01 PM
Sheriff Paul Babeu of Pinal County, Ariz., said that Attorney General Eric Holder’s recent attacks on his colleague, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., were an attempt to take public attention off of Operation Fast and Furious.

“The fact [that the Department of Justice] chose today to release their findings was only done to take the attention away from themselves,” Babeu said in a press release, according to Sonoran News. “Today marks the one year anniversary since the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.”

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/22/az-sherriff-doj-attack-on-arpaio-an-attempt-to-distract-from-fast-and-furious/#ixzz1hIhGml8i

:( hmmm quite the coincidence. :rolleyes:

Apache
12-22-2011, 07:32 PM
Sheriff Paul Babeu of Pinal County, Ariz., said that Attorney General Eric Holder’s recent attacks on his colleague, Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., were an attempt to take public attention off of Operation Fast and Furious.

“The fact [that the Department of Justice] chose today to release their findings was only done to take the attention away from themselves,” Babeu said in a press release, according to Sonoran News. “Today marks the one year anniversary since the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.”

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/22/az-sherriff-doj-attack-on-arpaio-an-attempt-to-distract-from-fast-and-furious/#ixzz1hIhGml8i

A smear....


Gee :rolleyes:

I still don't like Joe :cool:

Novaheart
12-22-2011, 11:09 PM
A smear....


Gee :rolleyes:

I still don't like Joe :cool:

I think Joe is probably a first rate jackass. I think he and I probably don't agree on a lot of issues. I am not giving him a pass because immigration is one of my top three issues and I see him as useful, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt because unlike the Obama administration (or the previous one either) he has never done anything which I am aware of to shake my confidence in his performance as a constitutional officer.

The press has told lie after lie about immigration issues in Arizona. There is no reason to trust them one bit.

Apache
12-22-2011, 11:25 PM
I think Joe is probably a first rate jackass. I think he and I probably don't agree on a lot of issues. I am not giving him a pass because immigration is one of my top three issues and I see him as useful, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt because unlike the Obama administration (or the previous one either) he has never done anything which I am aware of to shake my confidence in his performance as a constitutional officer.

The press has told lie after lie about immigration issues in Arizona. There is no reason to trust them one bit.

As a native to the Copper State,.... We can agree :cool:

BreslinBeal1990
12-24-2011, 02:32 AM
I like sheriff Joe and i have a ton of respect for him but do you guys really believe that police in america are notracist and that they rutinely violate people of their civil rights?

txradioguy
12-24-2011, 04:16 AM
I like sheriff Joe and i have a ton of respect for him but do you guys really believe that police in america are notracist and that they rutinely violate people of their civil rights?

Yes.

Just like I believe that a few bad actors within the Armed Forces doesn't make everyone who wears the uniform some ignorant murdering thug.

Why is that so hard for people like you to understand?

Starbuck
12-24-2011, 05:27 AM
I like sheriff Joe and i have a ton of respect for him but do you guys really believe that police in america are notracist and that they rutinely violate people of their civil rights?

There are two questions:

Police in America are not racists, for the most part.

They probably do, in fact, violate people's civil rights, but rarely egregiously. When they do it is covered - or uncovered - by the press ad nauseam. I believe the police get sued for violated civil rights all the time, but usually there is no violation.

RedGrouse
01-04-2012, 04:23 PM
My dad did business with a Milling Company out of Mexico a few years back...had a chance to talk to one of the execs that was about my age...he told me that the rich ruling class in Mexico send the poor north as their way of "dealing" with the poor.

There is no middle class per se in Mexico...just rich and poor. And the rich hate to have their drive to the country club messed up by poor people milling about on the streets...so they send them north to the U.S. to get rid of them.

My point is that no matter how much we use our economic "might" to try and force Mexico to reign in their illegals...they aren't going to do it. As far as they are concerned...they have found a solution and have no plan to change it for the foreseeable future.

Mexico is an aristocratic society stuck in the 16th century. You have a few families ruling Mexico. This is despite the fact that Mexico is the 13th largest economy in the world and second largest in Latin America after Brazil.

noonwitch
01-04-2012, 04:30 PM
Mexico is an aristocratic society stuck in the 16th century. You have a few families ruling Mexico. This is despite the fact that Mexico is the 13th largest economy in the world and second largest in Latin America after Brazil.

And the ruling families are of Spanish descent and although they consider themselves Citizens of Mexico, they don't consider themselves to be "Mexicans", who they call "Indians". At least, this is what our exchange student from Mexico, who considered herself to be ethnically "Spanish" told us. We had to teach her how to make her own bed. At home, she had "Mexicans" to do that for her.

She liked it here, because we didn't have to put security walls around our houses to keep us safe from a vast undereducated and chronically unemployed majority of the population. At least not yet.

NJCardFan
01-04-2012, 05:36 PM
I like sheriff Joe and i have a ton of respect for him but do you guys really believe that police in america are notracist and that they rutinely violate people of their civil rights?

Wow, post #1 and you're already an idiot. So, to you every cop in the U.S. is racist and routinely violates people of their civil rights? Sheesh. No wonder you haven't been back. With idiocy like this you'd get eaten alive here.

Wei Wu Wei
01-04-2012, 05:52 PM
Mexico is an aristocratic society stuck in the 16th century. You have a few families ruling Mexico. This is despite the fact that Mexico is the 13th largest economy in the world and second largest in Latin America after Brazil.

Mexico has an enormous amount of wealth, they just need a little more time to let it all trickle down.

Apache
01-04-2012, 07:05 PM
Mexico has an enormous amount of wealth, they just need a little more time to let it all trickle down.

One more time, JACKASS... Mexico is not America :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
01-04-2012, 07:43 PM
One more time, JACKASS... Mexico is not America :rolleyes:

You're a hostile little man aren't you? Got something to prove?

Apache
01-04-2012, 07:58 PM
You're a hostile little man aren't you? Got something to prove?

Hostile? No. Short of patience, yes. Trying to tie two different forms of government to the same outcome is stupid, but you already know that. Yet you continue to play that same tune...:rolleyes:

Starbuck
01-04-2012, 09:27 PM
Mexico has an enormous amount of wealth, they just need a little more time to let it all trickle down.

Probably. Their constitution was first published in 1917.

BTW: Mexico ranks 61st in term of wealth per capita.

Teetop
01-04-2012, 09:52 PM
Interesting thread for sure....... And, once again, Sonna gets his ass handed to him. By the Constitution.


I told everyone a while back I had a friend who was an inmate in Joe's Jail. He had no ill feelings towards the man. You act human and Joe treats you like a human. *shrugs*

Nice replies, Tex. :D

Chuck58
01-04-2012, 10:20 PM
And the ruling families are of Spanish descent and although they consider themselves Citizens of Mexico, they don't consider themselves to be "Mexicans", who they call "Indians". At least, this is what our exchange student from Mexico, who considered herself to be ethnically "Spanish" told us. We had to teach her how to make her own bed. At home, she had "Mexicans" to do that for her.

She liked it here, because we didn't have to put security walls around our houses to keep us safe from a vast undereducated and chronically unemployed majority of the population. At least not yet.

Very true. The elite are European looking, phenomenally wealthy and very racist. In fact, the Hapsburg dynasty and others still exist - in Mexico. They prefer to marry Europeans. And, no matter which party gains power in Mexico these families pull the strings. The reason Mexico, for all its wealth, is poor is that much of the money goes to these elite.

The Mestizo, mixed Indian and Spanish, are the serfs and are 'Indios,' or Indians.

RedGrouse
01-05-2012, 12:44 AM
And the ruling families are of Spanish descent and although they consider themselves Citizens of Mexico, they don't consider themselves to be "Mexicans", who they call "Indians". At least, this is what our exchange student from Mexico, who considered herself to be ethnically "Spanish" told us. We had to teach her how to make her own bed. At home, she had "Mexicans" to do that for her.

She liked it here, because we didn't have to put security walls around our houses to keep us safe from a vast undereducated and chronically unemployed majority of the population. At least not yet.


Very true. The elite are European looking, phenomenally wealthy and very racist. In fact, the Hapsburg dynasty and others still exist - in Mexico. They prefer to marry Europeans. And, no matter which party gains power in Mexico these families pull the strings. The reason Mexico, for all its wealth, is poor is that much of the money goes to these elite.

The Mestizo, mixed Indian and Spanish, are the serfs and are 'Indios,' or Indians.

I think I heard that in Mexico, it is 10 families who rule Mexico. 95 percent of Mexico's wealth is in their hands. No matter who runs, they rule Mexico. The gap between poor and rich is very wide in Mexico and most of Latin America. The Hapsburg family branch in Mexico is House of Habsburg-Lorraine: Emperor of Mexico, Maximilian I.

Maximilian I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_of_Mexico

Mexican Nobility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_nobility

Royal families are all related to each other, whether they are the Windsors, Hapsburg, or Romanovs. There is an obsessing with nobility in Mexico. Many Mexican elites are married into royalty. Examples of people who are descended of Mexican elites and European royal families.
Rainier III, Prince of Monaco
Elena Poniatowska

Chuck58
01-05-2012, 03:23 AM
I think I heard that in Mexico, it is 10 families who rule Mexico. 95 percent of Mexico's wealth is in their hands. No matter who runs, they rule Mexico. The gap between poor and rich is very wide in Mexico and most of Latin America. The Hapsburg family branch in Mexico is House of Habsburg-Lorraine: Emperor of Mexico, Maximilian I.

Maximilian I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_of_Mexico

Mexican Nobility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_nobility

Royal families are all related to each other, whether they are the Windsors, Hapsburg, or Romanovs. There is an obsessing with nobility in Mexico. Many Mexican elites are married into royalty. Examples of people who are descended of Mexican elites and European royal families.
Rainier III, Prince of Monaco
Elena Poniatowska

I don't know the number. I've heard around a dozen to many more, mostly all related via marriage or blood.

As for Sheriff Joe, I like him. Sure he's a media hound, but he's effective. This sounds like just another attempt to cool his jets. On one hand, we have obama and Napolitano appearing and claiming the border is secure. And he's arresting illegals hand over fist simply by running DUI checkpoints and through routine traffic stops and other police work.

I've seen the Arizona border, and NM border, admittedly not since last year. If it's secure, who is leaving all the trash and filth?

noonwitch
01-05-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't know the number. I've heard around a dozen to many more, mostly all related via marriage or blood.

As for Sheriff Joe, I like him. Sure he's a media hound, but he's effective. This sounds like just another attempt to cool his jets. On one hand, we have obama and Napolitano appearing and claiming the border is secure. And he's arresting illegals hand over fist simply by running DUI checkpoints and through routine traffic stops and other police work.

I've seen the Arizona border, and NM border, admittedly not since last year. If it's secure, who is leaving all the trash and filth?

I'm not a fan, but I live near a much easier border to deal with.

AmPat
01-05-2012, 02:30 PM
Reference this (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=5142)

and explain the discrepancy here, if you will...as to why one is fine because it is your "hero" Arpaio, and the other is "unconstitutional"

It's one or the other, folks

Your hatred of the Sheriff is well documented. Why has Joe been attacked and charged so many times yet he isn't in jail? Do you suppose for merely a nano second that perhaps these accusations are politically charged and without merit? Can you put aside your hatred and prejudice for a few moments and consider his innocence? How many times must Joe beat these charges until you are satisfied that you have been wrong about him? :cool:

AmPat
01-05-2012, 02:34 PM
I like sheriff Joe and i have a ton of respect for him but do you guys really believe that police in america are notracist and that they rutinely violate people of their civil rights?

I'm sure that goes over well at the patrol briefings where White, Black, Asian, and Latino Officers shoot at each other for a few minutes before they begin their daily patrols together.:rolleyes:

Chuck58
01-05-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm sure that goes over well at the patrol briefings where White, Black, Asian, and Latino Officers shoot at each other for a few minutes before they begin their daily patrols together.:rolleyes:

American police are a mirror of America. I worked with White, Hispanic, Black and a couple of American Indian officers during my time. We had all taken the oath of office and did our jobs. Color or race didn't enter into it.

Has Sonna taken a look at our Border Patrol agents and/or Immigration officers along the Mexican border? Are they racist? Most, or a very considerable number, are Hispanic Americans.

We live in a small village of about 100 people, here in New Mexico. We are the only Anglo Americans in the village. The others are Hispanic Americans most whose ancestors have been here for 4 centuries and more. Every single one, and we know all the people in this village, despise the illegal aliens. They don't like them, don't want them in the country and refuse to hire them for haying season or to work on their ranches. They're 'Mojados," which means wetback and considered one of the most derogatory terms they have.