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RedGrouse
01-20-2012, 02:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd-nnmvr7Dc

Another troop basher like Michael Crook. :mad:

fettpett
01-20-2012, 02:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fJUep2ghQ&feature=related

Kay
01-20-2012, 10:31 AM
I didn't finish watching either video.

The fist one is just a stupid ignorant bitch that needs a long vacation in a sunny Muslim country to see how the women live there and what life is like in those countries out from under the protection of our great military.

The second one, while well intentioned, is more about how many times can you use the F word in a sentence. These two Marines could have been much more effective if they had been a bit more disciplined in the delivery of their response. They need to remake their video and stand up straight, cut out the F words, rehearse it a little more and say it like they mean it in a more disciplined and direct way. As a Marine mother, I'd like to wash their mouths out with soap and make them try again.

Bailey
01-20-2012, 10:46 AM
She is a perfect example of someone pretty on the outside and very ugly on the inside.

SaintLouieWoman
01-20-2012, 10:50 AM
She is a perfect example of someone pretty on the outside and very ugly on the inside.
She's also a perfect example of someone with no grey matter in that head. First of all, who cares what she thinks? She keeps repeating the same phrases with no back up. And nice background, sitting on a rumpled bed with a closet door behind.

Bailey
01-20-2012, 11:01 AM
She's also a perfect example of someone with no grey matter in that head. First of all, who cares what she thinks? She keeps repeating the same phrases with no back up. And nice background, sitting on a rumpled bed with a closet door behind.



Well on the plus side thats a good women, pretty and empty headed :D :D :D


Just kidding :D

SarasotaRepub
01-20-2012, 11:09 AM
Well on the plus side thats a good women, pretty and empty headed :D :D :D


Just kidding :D


You're dead man. Nice knowing you...:D

BadCat
01-20-2012, 11:14 AM
And people wonder why I "need" 30 round magazines for my USG?

txradioguy
01-20-2012, 11:27 AM
She's also a perfect example of someone with no grey matter in that head. First of all, who cares what she thinks? She keeps repeating the same phrases with no back up. And nice background, sitting on a rumpled bed with a closet door behind.

You just described Lanie.

Bailey
01-20-2012, 11:31 AM
You're dead man. Nice knowing you...:D

she has to find me first... :D

NJCardFan
01-20-2012, 12:36 PM
And nice background, sitting on a rumpled bed with a closet door behind.
So. She wanted to record this at her place of business.

namvet
01-20-2012, 12:40 PM
she made enough money UNDER the troops :D

Odysseus
01-20-2012, 02:14 PM
I find her candor refreshing. It's preferable to the hypocritical toadies who shake my hand and thank me for my service with one hand while voting for leftist idiots who impede my mission and sell us out for political gain with the other. It's not like her friends have us fooled. We know what they think of us. The disdain of the elites for the nation's uniformed services has been demonstrated repeatedly. Remember John Kerry's comment about getting stuck in Iraq if you were too stupid to make the grade in school? John Murtha accusing his fellow Marines of attrocities? Obama's casual accusations of mistreating civilians? His latest budget? We all know that the people on the left who go out of their way to thank us to our faces are the first to stab us in the back, so a dose of honesty, even if based in contempt and ignorance, is better than PC groupthink.

To paraphrase R. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket, "She's silly and she's ignorant, but she's honest, and that's enough."

Novaheart
01-20-2012, 02:34 PM
She's also a perfect example of someone with no grey matter in that head. First of all, who cares what she thinks? She keeps repeating the same phrases with no back up. And nice background, sitting on a rumpled bed with a closet door behind.

I was thinking the same thing, "You make a video on an unmade bed and we're supposed to believe you have thought this out?"

I don't know what one has to do with the other, but it just seems like it's operative.

I think she's trying to say that the troops need to be held responsible for their choice to cooperate with the administration. But then she throws in "I don't support the nationalism and blind patriotism" which makes me agree with the "stupid bitch" assessment. What exactly do these people think would happen in the absence of nationhood? What do they think would happen if we had pure democracy and an open border?

She's young. Young and stupid go hand in hand. I have to say that I am equally put off by young men and women who appear to parrot their parents' hard right conservatism or religion. Youth is a time when you are supposed to question your parents' politics and religion, not blindly accept it like a good little boy.

Starbuck
01-20-2012, 02:39 PM
Young and stupid very often do go hand in hand. That's why the Democratic Party forever reaches out to the young people for refreshing new ideas. Only, the Democrats don't mean a word of it. They know young people are easily manipulated and will not realize they are being pandered to.

Novaheart
01-20-2012, 02:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fJUep2ghQ&feature=related

This is not encouraging. She may be a gum snapping mall chick, but the worst impact she can have is on one person at a time as they pass in front of her cash register at Guess. These alleged soldiers look and sound like boys we would expect to meet at Fashion Island, not Parris Island. Did he call her an "ugly fat kike" while wearing a USMC sweater?

Novaheart
01-20-2012, 02:44 PM
I find her candor refreshing. It's preferable to the hypocritical toadies who shake my hand and thank me for my service with one hand while voting for leftist idiots who impede my mission and sell us out for political gain with the other. It's not like her friends have us fooled. We know what they think of us. The disdain of the elites for the nation's uniformed services has been demonstrated repeatedly. Remember John Kerry's comment about getting stuck in Iraq if you were too stupid to make the grade in school? John Murtha accusing his fellow Marines of attrocities? Obama's casual accusations of mistreating civilians? His latest budget? We all know that the people on the left who go out of their way to thank us to our faces are the first to stab us in the back, so a dose of honesty, even if based in contempt and ignorance, is better than PC groupthink.

To paraphrase R. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket, "She's silly and she's ignorant, but she's honest, and that's enough."

You'll note that I have never thanked you. I don't think it sounds sincere even when it is. It's rote, and I hate rote.

Bailey
01-20-2012, 03:00 PM
This is not encouraging. She may be a gum snapping mall chick, but the worst impact she can have is on one person at a time as they pass in front of her cash register at Guess. These alleged soldiers look and sound like boys we would expect to meet at Fashion Island, not Parris Island. Did he call her an "ugly fat kike" while wearing a USMC sweater?

They are not Soldiers, they are Marines, get it right Mo.

txradioguy
01-20-2012, 03:14 PM
You'll note that I have never thanked you. I don't think it sounds sincere even when it is. It's rote, and I hate rote.

Nova we disagree on a hell of a lot of stuff. But we agree on the threat that is radical Islam and why we are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to quell it's spread.

I can't speak for Ody, but to me that's better than any "thank you for your service" you could tell me.

And that is the God's honest truth.

txradioguy
01-20-2012, 03:14 PM
They are not Soldiers, they are Marines, get it right Mo.

Given the fact he comes from a Navy family...I'm surprised he didn't refer to them as Naval Infantry. :D

Bailey
01-20-2012, 03:17 PM
Given the fact he comes from a Navy family...I'm surprised he didn't refer to them as Naval Infantry. :D

Why am i not shocked to hear he's from a navy family? :D

Novaheart
01-20-2012, 03:17 PM
They are not Soldiers, they are Marines, get it right Mo.

If they called her a kike on You Tube while in USMC clothing, then I doubt they will be marines for very long.

Odysseus
01-20-2012, 03:27 PM
You'll note that I have never thanked you. I don't think it sounds sincere even when it is. It's rote, and I hate rote.
I've never expected you to. Not that I don't think that you don't appreciate it, it's just that I don't think that you understand it, which is not the same thing. TX got it right in his post below. When you are on my side of an argument, I value your input and welcome the support. Sadly, when you aren't, on the DADT issue, you don't realize what it is that you're arguing for.

The previous episode of Downton Abbey had a scene where two women got up in the middle of a concert and began distributing white feathers to the men who were present in civilian attire. It was a symbol of cowardice and a genuine stigma at the time. Vietnam ended that by making cowardice trendy (the antiwar movement ended when the draft did, even though the war continued for several more years), and now we have the Italian cruise ship captain standard of honor as the norm, where men crowd women and children out of lifeboats and leave them to drown.




Nova we disagree on a hell of a lot of stuff. But we agree on the threat that is radical Islam and why we are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to quell it's spread.

I can't speak for Ody, but to me that's better than any "thank you for your service" you could tell me.

And that is the God's honest truth.
QFT Many of the people who give the rote thank you are really saying, "Thank you for doing what I didn't have the courage, commitment or patriotism to do. I'm going back to my latte, now." Not all, not even most, but enough to make it obvious.

Given the fact he comes from a Navy family...I'm surprised he didn't refer to them as Naval Infantry. :D

I refer to them as Naval Gazers. :D

Starbuck
01-20-2012, 04:07 PM
You'll note that I have never thanked you. I don't think it sounds sincere even when it is. It's rote, and I hate rote.
Even though you didn't address me:
I want to thank you for never thanking me. I was ostracized during the 60's when I served. That was considered trendy then, just has being thankful is trendy now.

One the other hand, I do thank the troops when I see them. Somehow, right or wrong, I feel perfectly qualified to do so.

Hawkgirl
01-20-2012, 06:30 PM
She is entitled to her hateful opinion...even allowed to broadcast it.... many military men and women fought for her right to do so.

Wei Wu Wei
01-20-2012, 07:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fJUep2ghQ&feature=related

I was going to offer a lengthy defense of the troops until I saw this response video. They just did it all themselves, with such eloquence, they even threw in an anti-semitic slur that I wouldn't have thought of. :rolleyes:

These guys are making themselves and their organization look worse.

Wei Wu Wei
01-20-2012, 08:09 PM
I have family (a brother and a few cousins) active in the military but we don't get to see each other often so we don't talk much about it. I have some casual friends who I hang out with every weekend who returned home from Iraq a few months ago, and they bring up their experiences a lot. They know that I am vehemently opposed to these wars, but we get along. They know my opinions, and we can talk about it respectfully. We don't "debate" much the issues of war, we just have a good time drinking beers and hanging out.

I am not as hateful as the woman in the first video appears to be. I don't believe that the troops are "evil".
Serial killers may find an ideal job being in a combat role in the military, if they are clever enough to pass the psych tests, but I think this is extremely rare. I believe that the vast majority of non-sociopathic people in the military who kill in these wars suffer immensely from it, either consciously or subconsciously. I've known people who came back from the wars with severe psychological issues or a dangerous array of symptoms used to suppress those issues, and I've had to cut my social ties with them because of it.

However, I do agree that I oppose the "troop-worship" culture of this society. I respect troops as my fellow individuals, I recognize that many of them joined the military for what they believed to be noble reasons rooted in Higher Purpose or Greater Personal Meaning, many others joined because they simply had no other viable economic opportunities and the military promises growth, education, and career advancement. I don't think these are bad reasons to join (although I would question the ideology which creates the "higher purpose" motivation for joining), but I don't feel the need to kiss someone's ass just because they watched Starship Troopers when they were 17 and decided to join the fight. (I suspect some people won't be able to parse my meaning here, so I should clarify before the mouth-foaming begins: many, but not all, of the people I've met who've gone to war made the decision to join the military as teenagers, with extreme enthusiasm but the level of wisdom that I would expect from a teenager. While I respect some things about their service, such as overcoming obstacles and becoming more disciplined, I don't think signing up deserves a standing ovation.)

Zafod
01-20-2012, 08:16 PM
WEETAWD TWOO THE WESCEW!!!!!!!!!


yawn

JB
01-20-2012, 08:21 PM
These guys are making themselves and their organization look worse.Yeah, that was tough to watch. Some better spokesman would have been preferrable.

Although, in reality, there really is no reason to reply to that girls video. She's a numnutz and a rarity as far as I am concerned.

Wei Wu Wei
01-20-2012, 08:34 PM
I would offer this to the woman: She feels sympathetic for the victims of foreign wars, innocent civilians who lack educational and economic opportunities who are thrown into a global war fueled by the interests of Capital. She hates that our young men and women are sent to fight wars for embellished (or simply made up) reasons, which result in countless destroyed families and lives, all to make wealthy powerful people more wealthy and more powerful.

However, I would suggest that many of the young men and women on our side of the fight are in the same position. They live in impoverished communities with extremely high crime rates and a total lack of educational or economic opportunities. For many kids in this country, who's families, communities, schools and government have failed them, they see few options to get ahead in life: drug dealing, organized crime, or the military. Of these, the military offers education, career opportunities, and the ability to grow inner strength and reach their true potential. If these are the only options available, then it's a no-brainer. They are economically coerced into joining the military, seeing it as their only good option.

She thinks that they must be stupid because they don't know what she knows, but she's got it all wrong. Beliefs are not about having the right number of facts. Very often, people don't believe what they do because they "don't have the right facts", they believe it because they have to.

Often times it's psychologically necessary to believe certain things, to disbelieve certain things, to "know" certain things, and to "not know" certain things. The relative "truth values" of this belief and knowledge don't matter one bit. What matters if how this belief and knowledge fits into their psychological framework.

A person who was drafted in WWII and went off to fight the Japanese may have come to believe they were subhuman and so totally different that they could not possibly think or feel the way we do. This clearly isn't true, but it's a necessary belief for someone who has to kill countless japanese people. They may come to believe that the japenese are closer to animals than they are to humans. This isn't true but it may be necessary to believe for someone who firebombed Tokyo.

So I don't think that people who develop these beliefs are "stupid", they are simply automatically, subconsciously creating a frame to look at the world that they are in, so that they don't lose their sanity. Seeing that all their beliefs are just a fantasmic support could be entirely traumatic, and cause them to have a psychological breakdown, which may result in their death .

It seems that military culture specifically emphasizes certain ideological frameworks which serve the purpose of keeping their soldiers good soldiers. It has nothing to do with truth or objectivity (if there even are such things), and everything to do with functionality. Ideas, ideological frameworks, vocabulary which may cause soldiers to be less effective seem to be de-emphasized. Part of the functionality is not losing your mind and having a nervous breakdown. When we are fighting wars like we are, this may require some very interesting mental gymnastics, that, to an outsider who only wants to judge, will look "stupid". To the person holding a "belief necessary for one's sanity in war", that belief takes on the appearance of Truth, so there's no use trying to present facts to counter it.

namvet
01-20-2012, 08:42 PM
I would offer this to the woman: She feels sympathetic for the victims of foreign wars, innocent civilians who lack educational and economic opportunities who are thrown into a global war fueled by the interests of Capital. She hates that our young men and women are sent to fight wars for embellished (or simply made up) reasons, which result in countless destroyed families and lives, all to make wealthy powerful people more wealthy and more powerful.

However, I would suggest that many of the young men and women on our side of the fight are in the same position. They live in impoverished communities with extremely high crime rates and a total lack of educational or economic opportunities. For many kids in this country, who's families, communities, schools and government have failed them, they see few options to get ahead in life: drug dealing, organized crime, or the military. Of these, the military offers education, career opportunities, and the ability to grow inner strength and reach their true potential. If these are the only options available, then it's a no-brainer. They are economically coerced into joining the military, seeing it as their only good option.

She thinks that they must be stupid because they don't know what she knows, but she's got it all wrong. Beliefs are not about having the right number of facts. Very often, people don't believe what they do because they "don't have the right facts", they believe it because they have to.

Often times it's psychologically necessary to believe certain things, to disbelieve certain things, to "know" certain things, and to "not know" certain things. The relative "truth values" of this belief and knowledge don't matter one bit. What matters if how this belief and knowledge fits into their psychological framework.

A person who was drafted in WWII and went off to fight the Japanese may have come to believe they were subhuman and so totally different that they could not possibly think or feel the way we do. This clearly isn't true, but it's a necessary belief for someone who has to kill countless japanese people. They may come to believe that the japenese are closer to animals than they are to humans. This isn't true but it may be necessary to believe for someone who firebombed Tokyo.

So I don't think that people who develop these beliefs are "stupid", they are simply automatically, subconsciously creating a frame to look at the world that they are in, so that they don't lose their sanity. Seeing that all their beliefs are just a fantasmic support could be entirely traumatic, and cause them to have a psychological breakdown, which may result in their death .

It seems that military culture specifically emphasizes certain ideological frameworks which serve the purpose of keeping their soldiers good soldiers. It has nothing to do with truth or objectivity (if there even are such things), and everything to do with functionality. Ideas, ideological frameworks, vocabulary which may cause soldiers to be less effective seem to be de-emphasized. Part of the functionality is not losing your mind and having a nervous breakdown. When we are fighting wars like we are, this may require some very interesting mental gymnastics, that, to an outsider who only wants to judge, will look "stupid". To the person holding a "belief necessary for one's sanity in war", that belief takes on the appearance of Truth, so there's no use trying to present facts to counter it.

http://www.postonpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AllenWest.jpg


WAR IS HELL

Kay
01-20-2012, 08:54 PM
I love Alan West. :Flag2:

I want him for SecDef.

namvet
01-20-2012, 08:56 PM
I love Alan West. :Flag2:

I want him for SecDef.

I wanted him for prez. but I do hope they find a position for him. like maybe pissin on democraps :D

Kay
01-20-2012, 09:01 PM
I'd sure vote for him if he ever runs for president.
I think it would be awesome to have:

Petraus as head of the CIA
West as Secretary of Defence
Bolton as Secretary of State

fettpett
01-20-2012, 09:04 PM
well, I shouldn't have posted that video...didn't realize how stupid they made themselves out to be until after watching the whole thing. On top of that it was late. They do a disservice to the Marines and US Military as a whole. Though I understand their sentiment.

Also, after looking into libertychicklive, she's nothing more than a shock-jock of youtube, and mocks both right and left.

Odysseus
01-21-2012, 12:58 AM
I am not as hateful as the woman in the first video appears to be. I don't believe that the troops are "evil".
Serial killers may find an ideal job being in a combat role in the military, if they are clever enough to pass the psych tests, but I think this is extremely rare. I believe that the vast majority of non-sociopathic people in the military who kill in these wars suffer immensely from it, either consciously or subconsciously. I've known people who came back from the wars with severe psychological issues or a dangerous array of symptoms used to suppress those issues, and I've had to cut my social ties with them because of it.
First off, you've accused us of atrocities so many times that it's impossible to take this seriously. You hold us in utter contempt, and we know it. Don't go wobbly now, Wei.


However, I do agree that I oppose the "troop-worship" culture of this society. I respect troops as my fellow individuals, I recognize that many of them joined the military for what they believed to be noble reasons rooted in Higher Purpose or Greater Personal Meaning, many others joined because they simply had no other viable economic opportunities and the military promises growth, education, and career advancement. I don't think these are bad reasons to join (although I would question the ideology which creates the "higher purpose" motivation for joining), but I don't feel the need to kiss someone's ass just because they watched Starship Troopers when they were 17 and decided to join the fight. (I suspect some people won't be able to parse my meaning here, so I should clarify before the mouth-foaming begins: many, but not all, of the people I've met who've gone to war made the decision to join the military as teenagers, with extreme enthusiasm but the level of wisdom that I would expect from a teenager. While I respect some things about their service, such as overcoming obstacles and becoming more disciplined, I don't think signing up deserves a standing ovation.)
You really don't see the condescension and contempt in that statement, do you? Does it occur to you that characterizing us as having joined the military because we'd read Starship Troopers as teenagers is arrogant and contemptuous of us, our ideals and our patriotism? No, of course not, because you hold us, our ideals and patriotism in contempt. I'll give the video chick credit for being more honest than you are.


I would offer this to the woman: She feels sympathetic for the victims of foreign wars, innocent civilians who lack educational and economic opportunities who are thrown into a global war fueled by the interests of Capital. She hates that our young men and women are sent to fight wars for embellished (or simply made up) reasons, which result in countless destroyed families and lives, all to make wealthy powerful people more wealthy and more powerful.
In other words, she's bought into your narrative. Was she one of your students?


However, I would suggest that many of the young men and women on our side of the fight are in the same position. They live in impoverished communities with extremely high crime rates and a total lack of educational or economic opportunities. For many kids in this country, who's families, communities, schools and government have failed them, they see few options to get ahead in life: drug dealing, organized crime, or the military. Of these, the military offers education, career opportunities, and the ability to grow inner strength and reach their true potential. If these are the only options available, then it's a no-brainer. They are economically coerced into joining the military, seeing it as their only good option.
This would be all very well if it were true. But, as I've repeatedly pointed out, this is not the case. We don't recruit from the dregs of society. The armed forces are actually better educated than the general population, more literate, and cannot join if they have a criminal record, as numerous studies have demonstrated, but this doesn't fit your narrative of us as knuckle-dragging troglodytes who couldn't get past the seventh grade. Your litany of our shortcomings is a variation on John Kerry's insult about our not being able to make the grade, and thus getting stuck in places like Iraq. In fact, the two Marines in that video, while angry and thoughtless, are consummate professionals who handle more responsibility under far greater stresses than any person that you know in the same age group. Their language may be coarse, but they are neither stupid nor ignorant.


She thinks that they must be stupid because they don't know what she knows, but she's got it all wrong. Beliefs are not about having the right number of facts. Very often, people don't believe what they do because they "don't have the right facts", they believe it because they have to.
Riiiiight. Because what we believe cannot possibly be true. :rolleyes:


Often times it's psychologically necessary to believe certain things, to disbelieve certain things, to "know" certain things, and to "not know" certain things. The relative "truth values" of this belief and knowledge don't matter one bit. What matters if how this belief and knowledge fits into their psychological framework.
Psychobabble.


A person who was drafted in WWII and went off to fight the Japanese may have come to believe they were subhuman and so totally different that they could not possibly think or feel the way we do. This clearly isn't true, but it's a necessary belief for someone who has to kill countless japanese people. They may come to believe that the japenese are closer to animals than they are to humans. This isn't true but it may be necessary to believe for someone who firebombed Tokyo.
My father, who was medic on Okinawa during WWII, is visiting us this weekend. He read your comment over my shoulder and informed me that you were an idiot. They didn't consider the Japanese less than human, they considered them human beings who were trying to kill them, and who therefore had to be killed first if they were to live, just as they thought about the Germans, the Italians and the various and sundry other people who have chosen to take American lives in their quests for power. Those of us who fought in Iraq don't consider Muslims sub-human, we consider those of them who support jihad to be backwards, screwed up, ignorant and dangerous, and we wouldn't bother with them if they weren't fixated on imposing their backwards, screwed up, ignorant system on the rest of us. However, the Germans and Japanese of WWII and the Muslims today do consider us sub-human. To the Japanese, we were Gaijin--barbarians, who were unworthy of decent treatment in combat. To the Germans, we were the bastardized mutts descended from the dregs of Europe. To the Islamists, we are infidels, to be fought without mercy until we submit to Allah. Do any of those philosophical attitudes sound like the US military members that you claim to know?


So I don't think that people who develop these beliefs are "stupid", they are simply automatically, subconsciously creating a frame to look at the world that they are in, so that they don't lose their sanity. Seeing that all their beliefs are just a fantasmic support could be entirely traumatic, and cause them to have a psychological breakdown, which may result in their death .

It seems that military culture specifically emphasizes certain ideological frameworks which serve the purpose of keeping their soldiers good soldiers. It has nothing to do with truth or objectivity (if there even are such things), and everything to do with functionality. Ideas, ideological frameworks, vocabulary which may cause soldiers to be less effective seem to be de-emphasized. Part of the functionality is not losing your mind and having a nervous breakdown. When we are fighting wars like we are, this may require some very interesting mental gymnastics, that, to an outsider who only wants to judge, will look "stupid". To the person holding a "belief necessary for one's sanity in war", that belief takes on the appearance of Truth, so there's no use trying to present facts to counter it.

Has it ever occurred to you that the battlefield tests our beliefs more thoroughly than anything that you face in the faculty lounge?

Oh, and yes, Wei, there are such things as truth and objectivity. Not really in the mood to deal with Derrida and deconstructionist drivel, so suffice to say that bullets are objectively real and death in combat is true, and when we face these things, we know that the things that we are fighting for, that we believe in and want to get home to, are true as well.

Novaheart
01-21-2012, 02:04 AM
My father, who was medic on Okinawa during WWII, is visiting us this weekend. He read your comment over my shoulder and informed me that you were an idiot. They didn't consider the Japanese less than human.......

I guess it all depends on how literally you are taking the term "less than human". The remnant hostility towards the Japanese people when I was a child did not convey that they were not human beings in a biological sense, but that they were fundamentally different from us (Americans/Europeans) in their value system, independence of thought, and regard for human life. I don't recall the same attitude about Germans or Italians- certainly never having been told that they had no regard for human life. There were also frequent portrayal of the Japanese as monkeys.

None of which do I have a problem with. There is no obligation to hold an enemy or former enemy in high esteem.

Odysseus
01-21-2012, 01:59 PM
I guess it all depends on how literally you are taking the term "less than human". The remnant hostility towards the Japanese people when I was a child did not convey that they were not human beings in a biological sense, but that they were fundamentally different from us (Americans/Europeans) in their value system, independence of thought, and regard for human life. I don't recall the same attitude about Germans or Italians- certainly never having been told that they had no regard for human life. There were also frequent portrayal of the Japanese as monkeys.

None of which do I have a problem with. There is no obligation to hold an enemy or former enemy in high esteem.

The remnant hostility came from their conduct during the war, and there was similar hostility towards the Germans. They were considered Nazis. We had a couple of kids of German descent on my block, and their mom was a pretty virulent antisemite, which one of them picked up, but the other didn't. My response to his calling me a "kike" was to call him a Nazi, and remind him who won the war.

The Italians got less of it because of their early surrender and less than enthusiastic participation, but they took a lot of crap for being cowards for a long time after.

nightflight
01-21-2012, 05:35 PM
One of her "favorite" videos on her YouTube page is one by David Duke. :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
01-21-2012, 06:30 PM
First off, you've accused us of atrocities so many times that it's impossible to take this seriously. You hold us in utter contempt, and we know it. Don't go wobbly now, Wei.

I am close to enough people in the military to know better. They are not a bunch of bad people. I am very critical though.

You consistently speak as if you live in a universe of extreme black and whites, where you can either worship the the dirt that falls off a troops boots, or you must hate then with a fiery contempt. Such a mindsetis useful for making quick judgements, but not for thinking critically.



You really don't see the condescension and contempt in that statement, do you? Does it occur to you that characterizing us as having joined the military because we'd read Starship Troopers as teenagers is arrogant and contemptuous of us, our ideals and our patriotism? No, of course not, because you hold us, our ideals and patriotism in contempt. I'll give the video chick credit for being more honest than you are.

I can see how it appears condescending, but not contemptuous.

Generally speaking, teenagers are unwise, to put it nicely. They are idealistic, naive, they have everything to prove, they have fragile egos that rest at the center of their universes, and almost always they have a serious lack in critical thinking ability or wisdom. That's not a slam on teenagers who join the military, it's the truth about teenagers in general. Their brains haven't even fully developed yet. They are influenced very easily and lack the ability to put the real thought into what they are doing.

When one of these teenagers decides to join the military because of their teenage brain and teenage ideals, I don't see that as something to kiss their ass for. Now, I'm not saying that only teenagers join for immature reasons. In fact my brother joined at the age of 27. He did it for the discipline, for the personal strength he could gain, to be a good role model to his son, and for the opportunities for career advancement in the field of law enforcement. However I think he's reconsidering his career path and is now thinking of doing ministry work after his service. I think these are all mature, well thought out reasons, and many people join for these.

However, there are young people who just want to Join The Fight and act out the fantasies they've gotten from action movies and Call of Duty games. New Years 2011 (just over a year ago), I had the misfortune of meeting a young man at a party that should have had a clearer age-limit. He was 18 or 19, I forget which, just joined the Marines, and was soon to be shipped out to Afghanistan. He was telling me about this, and I was eager to listen, until he said "I just can't wait to get out there and kill some fucking ragheads!". Now I am willing to bet he didn't graduate from school at the top of his class, but I wouldn't call him evil or entirely stupid. I think he was just using his teenage brain which had soaked up years of cultural propaganda. This is what I mean by a teenager who watches/reads Starship Troopers and joins the fight.





This would be all very well if it were true. But, as I've repeatedly pointed out, this is not the case. We don't recruit from the dregs of society. The armed forces are actually better educated than the general population, more literate, and cannot join if they have a criminal record, as numerous studies have demonstrated, but this doesn't fit your narrative of us as knuckle-dragging troglodytes who couldn't get past the seventh grade. Your litany of our shortcomings is a variation on John Kerry's insult about our not being able to make the grade, and thus getting stuck in places like Iraq. In fact, the two Marines in that video, while angry and thoughtless, are consummate professionals who handle more responsibility under far greater stresses than any person that you know in the same age group. Their language may be coarse, but they are neither stupid nor ignorant.

I'm not saying they are stupid, can't pass 7th grade, or are criminals. I'm saying people who live in poor communities can be very bright and acheivement-oriented, but if their communities lack real educational or job opportunities, then the military is their best option.

I realize many people who join come from good backgrounds and decent neighbourhoods, and it seems this comes from a military culture community, where there is a family tradition of service and people do it out of a sense of duty.

I have more sympathy for the former but the latter is perfectly understandable.


Riiiiight. Because what we believe cannot possibly be true. :rolleyes:

Of course someone who believes this is going to assume it's true, and nothing I say will change that. That was the point of the second half of my post.





Psychobabble.

One mechanism for sustaining "structural necessary beliefs" within an ideological edifice or narrative is to dismiss the critical points of insight as meaningless babble.

These beliefs are like Load Bearing Structures in construction. Lets say your ideological framework is like a building, and this framework lets you make sense of the world, attributes all of the categories and titles that you use, and sustains meaning within your world. If this structure falls apart, a person may begin to lose their sense of meaning, become terribly anxious, feel like they are going insane, become depressed, be unable to function, or even in terrible cases be driven to suicide.

Meaning is assigned not only the world, but also to oneself and to ones actions. When people are engaged in extreme or traumatic situations, which threaten to tear apart their previous coordinates of understanding, they rely more and more on "load bearing beliefs", which hold extra weight in supporting their ideological framework. It doesn't matter one bit how "true" this belief is, all that matters is how well it holds your structure together. This is how people believe things. The idea that people are rational beings who come to their beliefs based on careful objective reasoning grounded in factual information is a myth, and often times this very idea becomes a "load bearing belief".

This is true of everyone, but it can often be more easy to see in people in the military who either directly face, or indirectly support traumatic events.

The military knows this, sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously. Military training and culture is supposed to prepare people for war, and a huge part of this preparation is preparing the proper ideological structure. An effective military cannot have people falling into depression, nervous breakdowns, psychotic breaks, or suicide when the shit hits the fan, and it's not simply about "toughing it out". Part of what the military does to make effective soldiers is to create an ideological structure ahead of time, with proper "Structurally Necessary Load Bearing Beliefs" in place to sustain a metaphorical hurricane of trauma that occurs in war.

To someone who is outside of the military, those structurally necessary beliefs may appear odd, ignorant, or outright wrong, but to someone who's ideaological structure requires that load bearing belief, it is simply true, and nothing can change that. To someone with a structurally necessary belief, evidence to the contrary, or another perspective, is just as meaningless as the color blue is to a computer that can only process 1's and 0's.


My father, who was medic on Okinawa during WWII, is visiting us this weekend. He read your comment over my shoulder and informed me that you were an idiot. They didn't consider the Japanese less than human, they considered them human beings who were trying to kill them, and who therefore had to be killed first if they were to live, just as they thought about the Germans, the Italians and the various and sundry other people who have chosen to take American lives in their quests for power. Those of us who fought in Iraq don't consider Muslims sub-human, we consider those of them who support jihad to be backwards, screwed up, ignorant and dangerous, and we wouldn't bother with them if they weren't fixated on imposing their backwards, screwed up, ignorant system on the rest of us

Many people do consider the people they kill to be sub-human. I saw an interview with a sniper on the O'Reilly Factor where he said this very thing. In fact he even said directly that believing this was necessary for him because of his job.

Even if you don't view the people as less than human, or their lives as less important, you may view the situation as some epic struggle of Good vs Evil (a view that some people may find overly simplistic).

There are many variations of structurally necessary beliefs, but they are always there.


........

Wei Wu Wei
01-21-2012, 06:31 PM
-Continued-



However, the Germans and Japanese of WWII and the Muslims today do consider us sub-human. To the Japanese, we were Gaijin--barbarians, who were unworthy of decent treatment in combat. To the Germans, we were the bastardized mutts descended from the dregs of Europe. To the Islamists, we are infidels, to be fought without mercy until we submit to Allah. Do any of those philosophical attitudes sound like the US military members that you claim to know?

I've known people to suggest that we should exterminate Muslims or drop nukes on populated cities, with a fuck it to civilian deaths, which does sound awfully close to that. In fact, we've had people on this forum advocate for Muslim Genocide.




Has it ever occurred to you that the battlefield tests our beliefs more thoroughly than anything that you face in the faculty lounge?

I believe the battle field makes those beliefs all the more necessary. They don't test them, they create the conditions that make them effectively un-testable. These beliefs act like glue, holding a person together, and battle can often tear a person apart, making them require the glue even more.


Oh, and yes, Wei, there are such things as truth and objectivity. Not really in the mood to deal with Derrida and deconstructionist drivel, so suffice to say that bullets are objectively real and death in combat is true, and when we face these things, we know that the things that we are fighting for, that we believe in and want to get home to, are true as well.

I don't expect to convince of you this, that's actually my point.

What I'm saying is, contrary to what the woman in the video said, it's not fair to simply call military members Stupid or Evil. Human psychology is a little more complex than that.

fettpett
01-21-2012, 09:38 PM
http://playstationeu.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/151877i1C5E27196155D7B3/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

RobJohnson
01-22-2012, 12:20 AM
So. She wanted to record this at her place of business.


:D

Odysseus
01-22-2012, 12:09 PM
I am close to enough people in the military to know better. They are not a bunch of bad people. I am very critical though.

You consistently speak as if you live in a universe of extreme black and whites, where you can either worship the the dirt that falls off a troops boots, or you must hate then with a fiery contempt. Such a mindsetis useful for making quick judgements, but not for thinking critically.
While you live in a universe of greys, with no contrasts. Such a mindset is useful for justifying anything that you want to do, but not for those who have a moral compass.


I can see how it appears condescending, but not contemptuous.
Trust me, it's contemptuous.


Generally speaking, teenagers are unwise, to put it nicely. They are idealistic, naive, they have everything to prove, they have fragile egos that rest at the center of their universes, and almost always they have a serious lack in critical thinking ability or wisdom. That's not a slam on teenagers who join the military, it's the truth about teenagers in general. Their brains haven't even fully developed yet. They are influenced very easily and lack the ability to put the real thought into what they are doing.

When one of these teenagers decides to join the military because of their teenage brain and teenage ideals, I don't see that as something to kiss their ass for. Now, I'm not saying that only teenagers join for immature reasons. In fact my brother joined at the age of 27. He did it for the discipline, for the personal strength he could gain, to be a good role model to his son, and for the opportunities for career advancement in the field of law enforcement. However I think he's reconsidering his career path and is now thinking of doing ministry work after his service. I think these are all mature, well thought out reasons, and many people join for these.

However, there are young people who just want to Join The Fight and act out the fantasies they've gotten from action movies and Call of Duty games. New Years 2011 (just over a year ago), I had the misfortune of meeting a young man at a party that should have had a clearer age-limit. He was 18 or 19, I forget which, just joined the Marines, and was soon to be shipped out to Afghanistan. He was telling me about this, and I was eager to listen, until he said "I just can't wait to get out there and kill some fucking ragheads!". Now I am willing to bet he didn't graduate from school at the top of his class, but I wouldn't call him evil or entirely stupid. I think he was just using his teenage brain which had soaked up years of cultural propaganda. This is what I mean by a teenager who watches/reads Starship Troopers and joins the fight.
People who join up looking to live out their fantasies end up getting weeded out pretty quickly by reality. Basic training doesn't encourage magical thinking. As for your encounter, sounds rather like a bouncy. Did he pop out of the bushes at you?


I'm not saying they are stupid, can't pass 7th grade, or are criminals. I'm saying people who live in poor communities can be very bright and acheivement-oriented, but if their communities lack real educational or job opportunities, then the military is their best option.
If their communities lack educational opportunities, then they won't pass the ASVAB. We don't take people who don't have, at a minimum, a high school diploma. In a pinch, we'll accept GEDs, but you'd be shocked at the number of enlisted troops with bachelors degrees. You're making assumptions based on stereotypes, but you're wrong.


I realize many people who join come from good backgrounds and decent neighbourhoods, and it seems this comes from a military culture community, where there is a family tradition of service and people do it out of a sense of duty.

I have more sympathy for the former but the latter is perfectly understandable.
You do understand that we don't want your sympathy, don't you? If anything, you deserve ours. Why?


War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)


Of course someone who believes this is going to assume it's true, and nothing I say will change that. That was the point of the second half of my post.
While someone who believes the opposite will write what you did. One of the things that I find infuriating about leftist academics is their habit of elevating their subjective beliefs to the level of objective facts, while denigrating the beliefs of everyone else.


One mechanism for sustaining "structural necessary beliefs" within an ideological edifice or narrative is to dismiss the critical points of insight as meaningless babble.
Especially when the "critical points" are meaningless babble.


Many people do consider the people they kill to be sub-human. I saw an interview with a sniper on the O'Reilly Factor where he said this very thing. In fact he even said directly that believing this was necessary for him because of his job.

You didn't say that "many" people considered the enemy to be sub-human, you said, and I quote:


A person who was drafted in WWII and went off to fight the Japanese may have come to believe they were subhuman and so totally different that they could not possibly think or feel the way we do. This clearly isn't true, but it's a necessary belief for someone who has to kill countless japanese people. They may come to believe that the japenese are closer to animals than they are to humans. This isn't true but it may be necessary to believe for someone who firebombed Tokyo.

And, I don't believe that the sniper said that he saw them as sub-human, simply that he saw them as targets, and didn't take their humanity into account while he was on the mission.


Even if you don't view the people as less than human, or their lives as less important, you may view the situation as some epic struggle of Good vs Evil (a view that some people may find overly simplistic).
People like you. But, once again, I consider your overly nuanced view to be far more naive than mine, because my worldview recognizes that there is such a thing as good, and such a thing as evil, and that while there are shades of grey, there are also black and white at either end of the spectrum. In your world, it's all just grey (except for capitalism, which you consider evil). But, more often than not, war is about good and evil. For example, do you really not consider WWII to have been a struggle between good and evil? Can you cite a regime that would have done more harm or destroyed more people than the Nazis?


I've known people to suggest that we should exterminate Muslims or drop nukes on populated cities, with a fuck it to civilian deaths, which does sound awfully close to that. In fact, we've had people on this forum advocate for Muslim Genocide.
Yes, and we've also had people argue against it, including those in uniform. OTOH, we've had people in the OWS movement, who claim to be antiwar, who advocate murdering the 1%. Some of the most vicious people in the world never served a minute in war.


I don't expect to convince of you this, that's actually my point.

So, if you convince me, you win, and if you don't, you win. How convenient. :rolleyes:

txradioguy
01-22-2012, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei
I'm not saying they are stupid, can't pass 7th grade, or are criminals.

And yet you just did.



I'm saying people who live in poor communities can be very bright and acheivement-oriented, but if their communities lack real educational or job opportunities, then the military is their best option.

I graduated HS with a 3.0 GPA. I have a 2.7 GPA in the college classes I've taken.

I worked my up from making $3.25 an hour as the overnight DJ at a station that no one listened to...to the Program Director of the #1 Station in the marked I worked in.

My dad for the last 30 years has had a mid 6 figure income and lives in a house that I WISH I could afford.

And yet here I sit...a Sr. NCO in the United States Army.

Was there some kind of point you were tying to make you obtuse nitwit?

Tipsycatlover
01-22-2012, 02:46 PM
I guess it all depends on how literally you are taking the term "less than human". The remnant hostility towards the Japanese people when I was a child did not convey that they were not human beings in a biological sense, but that they were fundamentally different from us (Americans/Europeans) in their value system, independence of thought, and regard for human life. I don't recall the same attitude about Germans or Italians- certainly never having been told that they had no regard for human life. There were also frequent portrayal of the Japanese as monkeys.

None of which do I have a problem with. There is no obligation to hold an enemy or former enemy in high esteem.

My mother who lived through WWII absolutely despised the Japanese. I must have heard about the despicable conduct of the Japanese Peace Boys a million times. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor didn't happen in a vacuum, the Japanese were in this country assuring us of their committment to peace. They left just prior to the attack. My parents, who lived through WWII said that the American fury at the Japanese was so intense they were ready to march into Japanese homes and businesses and wipe them out to the last sushi.

It never happened because the Japanese were put into internment camps.