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Elspeth
01-20-2012, 09:38 AM
While I think people need to be extremely careful about their Facebook postings--knowing that companies and government agencies freely troll the site--this story takes the cake.

Synopsis:

White grad student in education tutors at a black inner city high school, the worst school in the city.

Local NAACP rep says (in front of white grad student) that the high school should be hiring black instructors from historically black colleges.

White grad student posts on Facebook that the NAACP rep's comment was an example of racism and devalued his tutoring work at the school.

Fellow grad student tattles to the School of Education which threatens to remove white grad student from education program completely.

Read further to see what the grad student had to do to stay in the program.




Syracuse U. Won’t Expel Graduate Student Over Facebook Posting (http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/syracuse-u-wont-expel-grad-student-over-facebook-posting/35032)

January 18, 2012, 10:27 pm

By Michael Stratford

A Syracuse University graduate student who had been prohibited from student-teaching because of a Facebook posting will be allowed to finish his degree this spring, the university said on Wednesday. The decision came just a few hours after a free-speech group publicly denounced Syracuse’s handling of the matter.

Matthew S. Werenczak, a master’s student in social-studies education, made the comment on Facebook last July while he was a tutor at a local high school as part of a Syracuse class.

Mr. Werenczak said that during a field trip, he had heard a local NAACP representative say, “We need to start hiring our teachers from historically black colleges.” Since he and another tutor had just introduced themselves as Syracuse students, Mr. Werenczak said he found the remarks offensive.

On his personal Facebook page, he wrote that the comment was an example of “racism” and implied that his hard work tutoring at “the worst school in the city” was not being valued.

A few months later, after a fellow student brought the post to the attention of the School of Education, Mr. Werenczak’s adviser wrote him a letter saying he might be removed from the program because the Facebook post was “unprofessional, offensive, and insensitive.”

Mr. Werenczak said in an interview that he had been shocked at the school’s reaction, and he thinks his outspoken criticism of parts of the program’s curriculum and classes was a contributing factor.

“You don’t always have to agree with the material presented to you in a college class,” he said. “I had differing opinions. It’s disappointing that freedom of expression at Syracuse only extends to certain people, or it only goes so far.”

Mr. Werenczak also said he was frustrated by a lack of due process at the university, which did not formally charge him with any violation of its policies or code of conduct.

In the letter, the adviser, Jeffrey A. Mangram, wrote that Mr. Werenczak could either voluntarily withdraw from the school or meet a series of conditions. Those included undergoing anger-management counseling, completing a diversity course, and writing a reflective paper to be reviewed by a committee. He was also prohibited from completing his required student-teaching in the fall semester.

Mr. Werenczak said he reluctantly opted for the latter choice, completing all of the requirements by early December. He said it was unclear whether the school would readmit him into the program until he was notified late Wednesday afternoon by Mr. Mangram.

Earlier Wednesday, the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education issued a press release decrying the situation as a violation of free-speech and due-process rights. The advocacy group had also sent a letter to Syracuse’s chancellor, Nancy E. Cantor, on January 10.

“It’s a pretty clear-cut case of someone being punished for their off-campus speech,” Robert L. Shibley, the group’s senior vice president said on Wednesday before the school reinstated Mr. Werenczak. “He was effectively suspended without any real due process. There was no disciplinary hearing.”

Kevin C. Quinn, Syracuse’s senior vice president for public affairs, dismissed any due-process concerns, saying in an e-mail that “the matter was handled in accordance with the school’s standard process.”

Mr. Quinn said that Mr. Werenczak “will be allowed to continue his student-teaching this semester on the same terms and conditions as all other students.”

djones520
01-20-2012, 11:28 AM
Those people could eat my ass before I met any of those demands.

But that is also why I keep Facebook to friends only, and I have no friends on who I am currently working with, especially those in positions over me.

Arroyo_Doble
01-20-2012, 11:36 AM
Local NAACP rep says (in front of white grad student) that the high school should be hiring black instructors from historically black colleges.


I have heard similar opinions about urban schools from Black teachers and administrators.

Bailey
01-20-2012, 11:38 AM
I have heard similar opinions about urban schools from Black teachers and administrators.

Do you agree or disagree?

Arroyo_Doble
01-20-2012, 11:43 AM
Do you agree or disagree?

Disagree. The opinions I have heard are a bit more bald than the one in the OP. More like white teachers shouldn't even teach in urban schools where the school demographics are 90% + minority.

Bailey
01-20-2012, 11:52 AM
Disagree. The opinions I have heard are a bit more bald than the one in the OP. More like white teachers shouldn't even teach in urban schools where the school demographics are 90% + minority.

I think any competent teacher should be able to work in any inner city school, same goes with white families adopting minority kids.

Novaheart
01-20-2012, 01:23 PM
The Pinellas school district will strive to hire more black teachers under a proposed legal agreement that goes before the School Board next month.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/pinellas-poised-to-recruit-more-black-teachers/1206624

The draft is the latest spinoff from Bradley vs. the Pinellas County School Board, the long-running desegregation suit against the district. Like the 2000 court order, the draft says the district will consider black teachers a "critical shortage" area as long as the number of black teachers is two or more percentage points below the percentage of black students.

In 2010, 18.8 percent of Pinellas' students were black, compared to 7.6 percent of its teaching corps. Statewide, the ratios were 23 percent and 13 percent, respectively.

Mind you that the county is only 10.3% black, and blacks are 19% of students? So either a huge percentage of white students go to private or home schools (and lots of them do), or blacks are having twice as many kids (we're told that they don't), or someone is lying about the demographics.

Well some of each. But in fact there is at the moment a bubble of black youth and that bubble is what people want to "accommodate" with hiring more black teachers. Of course there is no problem with hiring more black teachers, as long as the process is fair and merit based. But what will they do when the black bubble bursts as it will in the next decade? The fertility rate of black females has sharply declined. Some attribute this to the evil of abortion, but more objectively we would conclude that black women are getting smarter about the association between child bearing and poverty. As more black people raise themselves out of poverty, they (like just about every other demographic) have fewer children.

The same census predication which has "whites" which I call brightwhites (modern definition= non-hispanic caucasians) falling below 50% of the national population has blacks falling to 9% of the national population from their current 12.6%.

So it's kind of funny when black militants "brag" that "you're on your way out, you are old and dying white people" based on their flawed understanding of the census and racial dynamics (like the fusion of anglo and asian and/or latino on economic rather than skin tone lines) while ignoring that while brightwhites are predicted to remain the majority (even though below 50%) blacks will decrease over 30% in representation in the same period of time.

All of which is a windy way of saying, this is bullshit. As we see in the article:

Some research shows black students perform better with black teachers.

A 2008 study in North Carolina found a teacher's ethnicity didn't have much impact on white student test scores. But "we see evidence that both black and, surprisingly, other ethnicity students are sensitive to their teachers' race — they respond positively to a black teacher in the classroom," said the study by University of Washington researcher Dan Goldhaber, an expert on teacher quality.

So it doesn't matter what color the teacher is for white kids, but black kids need to have a black teacher. Isn't that fascinating?

djones520
01-20-2012, 01:37 PM
I dated a girl in Pinellas county for a while. She went to a private school. I went to her Prom, it was lily white there.

Wei Wu Wei
01-20-2012, 06:32 PM
Student teachers who are enrolled in university programs generally have high expectations because they are representing their university programs. Calling the school "the worst school in the city" in a public space was not a good idea for someone representing an educational organization. He went on to say "I suppose I oughta be black or stay in my own side of town". That is simply inappropriate.

Now I generally don't agree with students or employees being punished for what they say in their free time, but if he had said these things at the school, he would justifiably be removed. If you think it's fair for students or employees to be punished for what they post on facebook, then this should be appropriate for you.

Zafod
01-20-2012, 06:45 PM
WEETAWD TWOO THE WESCEW!!!!!


yawn.

Elspeth
01-20-2012, 07:44 PM
Student teachers who are enrolled in university programs generally have high expectations because they are representing their university programs. Calling the school "the worst school in the city" in a public space was not a good idea for someone representing an educational organization. He went on to say "I suppose I oughta be black or stay in my own side of town". That is simply inappropriate.

Now I generally don't agree with students or employees being punished for what they say in their free time, but if he had said these things at the school, he would justifiably be removed. If you think it's fair for students or employees to be punished for what they post on facebook, then this should be appropriate for you.

Link, please. This wasn't mentioned in the OP.

Also, try to imagine a black UCLA grad student, tutoring at a school in East Los Angeles, being told by MECHA rep that LAUSD should only be hiring Latino teachers for schools in East LA. Now imagine that black student posting on Facebook, "I suppose I oughta be Latino or stay on my own side of town."

Would you agree that the black UCLA student should be "removed" from his grad program?

And lest you think this is some academic exercise, there are real tensions between blacks and Latinos in LA. Latinos have replaced blacks as the majority group in Watts (South Central LA) and a phenomenon of "black flight" is taking place. As Nova has pointed out, the black population is decreasing, while the Latino population is exploding due to immigration (both legal and illegal) and the high birthrate of Latino families and teenaged Latino girls. So Los Angeles blacks feel a certain trepidation about the Latino community that no one talks about but which is there under the surface. In fact, a great secret in LA is the number of blacks who call (conservative) talk radio stations complaining about illegal immigration. And they have a right to: illegal immigrants are undercutting their jobs, taking their neighborhoods, and demanding "civil rights" that black citizens did not fully have until over 100 years after the Civil War. So take all this into account with your answer.

JB
01-20-2012, 08:51 PM
I'll have to look but I'm sure the ACLU has filed its lawsuit by now against Syracuse to have its policy of "anger-management counseling, completing a diversity course, and writing a reflective paper to be reviewed by a committee" removed as a form of punishment merely for exercising certain rights.

Wei Wu Wei
01-20-2012, 10:52 PM
Link, please. This wasn't mentioned in the OP.

Also, try to imagine a black UCLA grad student, tutoring at a school in East Los Angeles, being told by MECHA rep that LAUSD should only be hiring Latino teachers for schools in East LA. Now imagine that black student posting on Facebook, "I suppose I oughta be Latino or stay on my own side of town."

Would you agree that the black UCLA student should be "removed" from his grad program?

Let's make it fair, the rep doesn't say that they should "only be hiring latino teachers", but that they should "start hiring latino teachers". You may think this is splitting hairs, but I think it's an important distinction. I think it is important for students in minority communities to have teachers from similar ethnic backgrounds who can relate to their experiences. That makes a huge difference for students who feel that school isn't for them, in part because of their race or culture. Having successful, educated people from their same ethnic background, sharing experiences as role models, gives students who might otherwise give up on school someone they can identify with and aspire to be like.

I don't think there should "only" be similar-raced teachers, but it does help.

Now, if your hypothetical black student made that comment about a latino school, then yes I would think they would be justified in being reprimanded and removed from the school.

I have reservations about being punished for something done in their free time, but I still think it is inappropriate.


And lest you think this is some academic exercise, there are real tensions between blacks and Latinos in LA. Latinos have replaced blacks as the majority group in Watts (South Central LA) and a phenomenon of "black flight" is taking place. As Nova has pointed out, the black population is decreasing, while the Latino population is exploding due to immigration (both legal and illegal) and the high birthrate of Latino families and teenaged Latino girls. So Los Angeles blacks feel a certain trepidation about the Latino community that no one talks about but which is there under the surface. In fact, a great secret in LA is the number of blacks who call (conservative) talk radio stations complaining about illegal immigration. And they have a right to: illegal immigrants are undercutting their jobs, taking their neighborhoods, and demanding "civil rights" that black citizens did not fully have until over 100 years after the Civil War. So take all this into account with your answer.

Yes I'm familiar with racial tensions between blacks and latinos. I think it is something to be considered, but I still think what I said is inapproriate.

Novaheart
01-21-2012, 12:42 AM
Student teachers who are enrolled in university programs generally have high expectations because they are representing their university programs. Calling the school "the worst school in the city" in a public space was not a good idea for someone representing an educational organization. He went on to say "I suppose I oughta be black or stay in my own side of town". That is simply inappropriate. .

Why? What is wrong with being candid? I get so sick of the fear of words. As the ACLU says, if you don't like what someone else says, then say what you have to say on the subject. To try to police what the other person has said is not your job or your right.

Novaheart
01-21-2012, 12:52 AM
I think it is important for students in minority communities to have teachers from similar ethnic backgrounds who can relate to their experiences.

In what way? I can't recall ever bonding with a school teacher because he was Episcopalian, or white, or Anglo Saxon. I don't remember the blackness of my 7th grade science teacher being a barrier to learning. The barrier to learning did indeed have to do with race, but it was not the race of the teachers, it was that other students had been raised in a black community (Anacostia) where good behavior, common courtesy, education, and decency were devalued and sports and physical violence were valued.

The disruptive students didn't learn more from black teachers, they were simply better behaved around black teachers, because they had assholes like Omali Yeshitela and other prison muslims telling them that they didn't need to obey white people in positions of authority.

The excuses are worn out. The problem isn't the teachers or the race of the teachers. The problem is when principals get called on the carpet for enforcing the rules and when their disciplinary numbers don't match the demographics. The problem is when you have idiots in positions of power saying that if 50% of the expulsions are of blacks and the general population is only 12% black then racism must be at the core. The same goes for crime stats. It's bullshit. It's tiresome bullshit and it's time America stopped putting up with the problem and the excuses.

Wei Wu Wei
01-21-2012, 11:48 AM
In what way? I can't recall ever bonding with a school teacher because he was Episcopalian, or white, or Anglo Saxon.

Well in America, white people often experience themselves as "default" in terms of racial background. The culture reflects this. Racial identity is more prevalent in minority communities where the experience of growing up black or latino is often starkly different from the "normal" experience of growing up white.

It's very easy for a minority child to see school as "not for them" by virtue of their ethnic background. It's very easy for minority children to look at their peers and see that the white students tend to have more money, live in better neighborhoods, have educated parents who went to college, have older siblings in college, being more prepped for higher education and experiencing a culture that has a fairly sharp division between races. They see this and get the idea that being successful within the systems of education, government, and business is "for the white kids". This can even go as far as insecure minority students teasing their minority peers for "acting white" if they study hard or try to succeed.

This problem is intensified in areas where the racial distinctions are sharper, such as cities that have large gaps between the incomes and education of whites and minorities.

One of the ways to help this is to have some (but not necessarily all) teachers who share the ethnic background of their students. It goes a very long way for a young minority student to have a teacher who looks like them and who grew up like they did, who speaks the same language and shares the culture, acting as a role model and demonstrating that academic success is an option for them.


I don't remember the blackness of my 7th grade science teacher being a barrier to learning.

It's not so much about the teacher being a different race being a barrier, so much as larger cultural and social issues creating perceived barriers that students internalize. Having teachers of the same ethnicity breaks down those mental walls.

If you look at statistics according to race, you will see sharp divisions (for example the fact that white people on average have 20 times the net worth of black people). If you are on the unfortunate side of those statistics, it's very easy to develop negative attitudes about race.


The barrier to learning did indeed have to do with race, but it was not the race of the teachers, it was that other students had been raised in a black community (Anacostia) where good behavior, common courtesy, education, and decency were devalued and sports and physical violence were valued.

The disruptive students didn't learn more from black teachers, they were simply better behaved around black teachers, because they had assholes like Omali Yeshitela and other prison muslims telling them that they didn't need to obey white people in positions of authority.

Black students who grow up in poor black communities have a high level of racial awareness, and often times this is a very negative self-perception. It comes from real aspects of our society as well as fantasy images in our culture. There's a great many reasons for this, but the point is that it is easy for a black student to feel that a white teacher simply "doesn't understand", doesn't get them, doesn't know their situation.

Think about how conservatives feel condescended to when liberal elites talk down to them, conservatives will say that the liberal elites are disconnected, they don't understand real america, they are talking from a position of elite institutions and cannot relate to the struggles of real Americans.

This is a very rough analogy for how these kids feel. The kids feel the difference is a racial difference so when they have a teacher who looks like they do, they automatically feel like they do understand, they do know their struggles, and they respect them for it.




The excuses are worn out. The problem isn't the teachers or the race of the teachers. The problem is when principals get called on the carpet for enforcing the rules and when their disciplinary numbers don't match the demographics. The problem is when you have idiots in positions of power saying that if 50% of the expulsions are of blacks and the general population is only 12% black then racism must be at the core. The same goes for crime stats. It's bullshit. It's tiresome bullshit and it's time America stopped putting up with the problem and the excuses.

The problems in education aren't going to be fixed by a certain demographic of teachers, but keeping that in mind can make a difference to students.

Novaheart
01-21-2012, 12:06 PM
The problems in education aren't going to be fixed by a certain demographic of teachers, but keeping that in mind can make a difference to students.

Regardless of how they dance around it, the schools in question are not simply "keeping it in mind" they are working on a quota system. Remember when the defenders of Affirmative Action insisted it wasn't about quotas?

We deal with the same situation in local police forces. Eligible black police officers are actually fairly rare, and state police forces get first pick because they pay more. The black officers go where the money it. Small towns get criticized for not having any or enough black officers, backhandedly accused of racism in hiring, when in reality the black officers aren't interested in the local jobs at the local pay rate.

We're never told the whole story in these kinds of articles, because the shitheads who write these articles and the liars at the NAACP want it to be an issue of "institutional racism" when there is critical information missing. Fewer blacks go to college than whites, by percentages, and we know that. Do blacks pursue education majors at the same rate relative to their representation as whites? Probably not. I wouldn't. If I were a black man with access to higher education, I wouldn't waste the opportunity on an education degree.

No matter what happens in this regard, you have black people generating the situation (be it teacher shortage or disruptive students) and white people being blamed for it. I can talk your bullshit as good as anyone, and some of it has some value, but most of it is simply looking for excuses as to why it's not the responsibility of black people to rectify the situation. The learning gap between black and white can be fixed for free- black culture simply has to switch from what it's doing now to what works to produce success.

• Stop putting up with the street scene.
• Stop putting up with violence and turf wars.
• Stop putting up with illegal drug trade.
• Stop putting up with street talk, prison chic, and "thug for life" bullshit.
• Cooperate with police to stop the violence and criminality.
• Stop teaching black kids that when they get into trouble it's because they are black rather than because of their choices.
• Stop acting in a way that makes other people want to avoid black people.

djones520
01-21-2012, 03:01 PM
Regardless of how they dance around it, the schools in question are not simply "keeping it in mind" they are working on a quota system. Remember when the defenders of Affirmative Action insisted it wasn't about quotas?

We deal with the same situation in local police forces. Eligible black police officers are actually fairly rare, and state police forces get first pick because they pay more. The black officers go where the money it. Small towns get criticized for not having any or enough black officers, backhandedly accused of racism in hiring, when in reality the black officers aren't interested in the local jobs at the local pay rate.

We're never told the whole story in these kinds of articles, because the shitheads who write these articles and the liars at the NAACP want it to be an issue of "institutional racism" when there is critical information missing. Fewer blacks go to college than whites, by percentages, and we know that. Do blacks pursue education majors at the same rate relative to their representation as whites? Probably not. I wouldn't. If I were a black man with access to higher education, I wouldn't waste the opportunity on an education degree.

No matter what happens in this regard, you have black people generating the situation (be it teacher shortage or disruptive students) and white people being blamed for it. I can talk your bullshit as good as anyone, and some of it has some value, but most of it is simply looking for excuses as to why it's not the responsibility of black people to rectify the situation. The learning gap between black and white can be fixed for free- black culture simply has to switch from what it's doing now to what works to produce success.

• Stop putting up with the street scene.
• Stop putting up with violence and turf wars.
• Stop putting up with illegal drug trade.
• Stop putting up with street talk, prison chic, and "thug for life" bullshit.
• Cooperate with police to stop the violence and criminality.
• Stop teaching black kids that when they get into trouble it's because they are black rather than because of their choices.
• Stop acting in a way that makes other people want to avoid black people.

Your little list there says something that I just want to stand on top of a building a scream out to the world.

I know the word "racist" would immediately get tossed back, but damnit shit's not gonna get fixed until that happens.

Kudo's to you for putting that into words.

Wei Wu Wei
01-21-2012, 05:53 PM
No matter what happens in this regard, you have black people generating the situation (be it teacher shortage or disruptive students) and white people being blamed for it. I can talk your bullshit as good as anyone, and some of it has some value, but most of it is simply looking for excuses as to why it's not the responsibility of black people to rectify the situation. The learning gap between black and white can be fixed for free- black culture simply has to switch from what it's doing now to what works to produce success.

I agree partially. There is a problem with "poor black culture" in the US, which I would distinguish from black culture as a whole. As we know, black kids raised in middle or upper class neighborhoods by educated parents who go to good schools do just as well as their white counterparts. Poverty is a real issue that needs to be addressed, especially the disparity between whites and blacks inthe economic realm.

I agree though that there is more to it, some of it is cultural. The black community in America would do wonderfully to return to the "old school" values of black communities in the mid-20th century. I think part of it is this "back to the roots" movement that urged black people to "stop trying to act white", by rejecting traditionally white-dominated institutions and cultural norms. While I think it's good and fine for black americans to have a sense of cultural and ethnic pride, it should not come at the expense of personal growth in a white culture.

However, I think it is still crucial to never ignore the fact that they are living in a racist white-dominated culture. So part of this does need to come from within the black community, but part of it has to come from society-wide changes as well.

The disproportionate rates of prison populations, drug convictions, arrests speak volumes to this. The differences in how police operate in poor minority communities vs middle class white communities needs to be addressed. This ridiculous war on drugs which is almost entirely focused on poor communities of color needs to end. The vast majority of law enforcement operations involving the war on drugs happens in poor minority communities with poor minorities getting the brunt of punishments, despite the fact that everyone knows that drug use is just as prevalent in middle class and rich white communities. Any majority-white yuppie college town in the country is flooded with drugs, but the police aren't raiding dorm rooms the way they do in the ghetto.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg/300px-US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg.png

The US has become the #1 Prison nation in the entire world, putting more of our population in prison than anyone else, even china or Iran. This extreme rise in prison population coincides with the War on Drugs. Just think about what happens when a generation of young black males are being thrown into prison, getting criminal records that will stop them from having employment opportunities in the future. What does that do for the next generation?

A study was done where a bunch of identical resumes were sent to employers in pairs, with everything the same except the name. Half of them were "white sounding names", and half of them were "black sounding names". They wanted to see if there would be a difference in how often employers responded to these resumes. I think you could predict the results.

So yes, there is a lot that needs to be done from within the black community, but we also cannot ignore the institutional racism that exists in the country.


• Stop putting up with the street scene.
• Stop putting up with violence and turf wars.
• Stop putting up with illegal drug trade.
• Stop putting up with street talk, prison chic, and "thug for life" bullshit.
• Cooperate with police to stop the violence and criminality.
• Stop teaching black kids that when they get into trouble it's because they are black rather than because of their choices.
• Stop acting in a way that makes other people want to avoid black people.

Almost every single one of these things you want to change can be traced back to economic factors or government policies (like the War on Poor Brown People, I mean the war on drugs)

Rockntractor
01-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Almost every single one of these things you want to change can be traced back to economic factors or government policies (like the War on Poor Brown People, I mean the war on drugs)
You start the racist shit and you are gone!

MrsSmith
01-21-2012, 07:28 PM
I agree partially. There is a problem with "poor black culture" in the US, which I would distinguish from black culture as a whole. As we know, black kids raised in middle or upper class neighborhoods by educated parents who go to good schools do just as well as their white counterparts. Poverty is a real issue that needs to be addressed, especially the disparity between whites and blacks inthe economic realm.

I agree though that there is more to it, some of it is cultural. The black community in America would do wonderfully to return to the "old school" values of black communities in the mid-20th century. I think part of it is this "back to the roots" movement that urged black people to "stop trying to act white", by rejecting traditionally white-dominated institutions and cultural norms. While I think it's good and fine for black americans to have a sense of cultural and ethnic pride, it should not come at the expense of personal growth in a white culture.

However, I think it is still crucial to never ignore the fact that they are living in a racist white-dominated culture. So part of this does need to come from within the black community, but part of it has to come from society-wide changes as well.

The disproportionate rates of prison populations, drug convictions, arrests speak volumes to this. The differences in how police operate in poor minority communities vs middle class white communities needs to be addressed. This ridiculous war on drugs which is almost entirely focused on poor communities of color needs to end. The vast majority of law enforcement operations involving the war on drugs happens in poor minority communities with poor minorities getting the brunt of punishments, despite the fact that everyone knows that drug use is just as prevalent in middle class and rich white communities. Any majority-white yuppie college town in the country is flooded with drugs, but the police aren't raiding dorm rooms the way they do in the ghetto.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg/300px-US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg.png

The US has become the #1 Prison nation in the entire world, putting more of our population in prison than anyone else, even china or Iran. This extreme rise in prison population coincides with the War on Drugs. Just think about what happens when a generation of young black males are being thrown into prison, getting criminal records that will stop them from having employment opportunities in the future. What does that do for the next generation?

A study was done where a bunch of identical resumes were sent to employers in pairs, with everything the same except the name. Half of them were "white sounding names", and half of them were "black sounding names". They wanted to see if there would be a difference in how often employers responded to these resumes. I think you could predict the results.

So yes, there is a lot that needs to be done from within the black community, but we also cannot ignore the institutional racism that exists in the country.



Almost every single one of these things you want to change can be traced back to economic factors or government policies (like the War on Poor Brown People, I mean the war on drugs)

You know, I've known quite a few people that ended up in prison for drugs..and they are overwhelmingly white.

Elspeth
01-22-2012, 02:35 AM
Now, if your hypothetical black student made that comment about a latino school, then yes I would think they would be justified in being reprimanded and removed from the school.

I have reservations about being punished for something done in their free time, but I still think it is inappropriate.

Yes I'm familiar with racial tensions between blacks and latinos. I think it is something to be considered, but I still think what I said is inapproriate.

Fair enough.

Now, let's suppose this same black graduate student was in a white high school in, let's say, Appalachia. And let's say a representative from a local Appalachian heritage group said, "We need to start hiring local Appalachian teachers." Since Appalachia is white (Scotch-Irish background), the implication would be that the black student's work was unwelcome there. So let's say the black student writes on his Facebook page that the heritage group rep made a racist comment and that he's better stay on his side of the block.

A reminder: Much of Appalachia is quite poor, and there aren't a ton of college graduates among the locals.

JB
01-22-2012, 04:46 AM
A study was done where a bunch of identical resumes were sent to employers in pairs, with everything the same except the name. Half of them were "white sounding names", and half of them were "black sounding names". They wanted to see if there would be a difference in how often employers responded to these resumes. I think you could predict the results.Sorry, I am unable to predict the results.

I would, however, like to see the actual results. Do you have a link to this study?

djones520
01-22-2012, 07:45 AM
You know, I've known quite a few people that ended up in prison for drugs..and they are overwhelmingly white.

Only people that I know who ended up in jail are white as well.

NJCardFan
01-22-2012, 01:20 PM
I think it is important for students in minority communities to have teachers from similar ethnic backgrounds who can relate to their experiences.
And you and your ilk wonder why there is such a racial divide in this country. :rolleyes: But if this is your feeling then perhaps we should have white teachers teach white students. Hell, why not de-segregate our schools all together. And to think it's the right who are racist. :rolleyes:

As for the issue in question, if I said it once I've said it a thousand times: when it comes to blacks, it's race first all else is a distant second.

NJCardFan
01-22-2012, 01:28 PM
Almost every single one of these things you want to change can be traced back to economic factors or government policies (like the War on Poor Brown People, I mean the war on drugs)

Funny how there are plenty of rural poor white communities where anyone, including blacks, can walk the streets without fear of getting robbed or worse. Can't say this about these poor black communities. Also, stop acting like only blacks are drug users or only blacks are in jail for drugs. Remember, of the 2 of us, only I have the experience of working in a prison and can tell you that there are quite a few whites incarcerated due to drug violations. However the majority are black and this is because they claim that smoking weed is a cultural right.

Novaheart
01-22-2012, 01:46 PM
I agree partially. There is a problem with "poor black culture" in the US, which I would distinguish from black culture as a whole. As we know, black kids raised in middle or upper class neighborhoods by educated parents who go to good schools do just as well as their white counterparts. Poverty is a real issue that needs to be addressed, especially the disparity between whites and blacks inthe economic realm.

I do not know that. I know that black "upper middle class" neighborhoods in Washington DC suburbs are not as safe as their white counterparts and do not produce the same results. One of the most heartbreaking aspects of the creation of the black middle class was that they would not cut the ties to the black lower class. Thus you had black kids whose Vietnam Veteran fathers did everything right, who got them out of the ghetto or the tobacco fields, being buried next to the kid who never left the ghetto. When they moved to the suburbs, they brought the problems with them and those problems exist to this day. There is no neighborhood that is more than >30% black in the DC area that is as safe or performing as a white neighborhood of similar construction or cost.

Poverty is an issue, but it's not the only issue. Claiming that it is is similar to the meme of ignoring black culture and claiming that "prejudice" is prevalent, rather than judgement based not on the skin but the culture and the product.

Is it impossible to have an honest discussion about this?

djones520
01-22-2012, 01:52 PM
Is it impossible to have an honest discussion about this?

Not without being called racist. It's an unfortunate thing, and it all boils down to the brainwashing that we've experienced over time to make us forget the possibility of personal responsibility.

If it's always someone elses fault, then you don't need to fix the problem.

Novaheart
01-22-2012, 01:58 PM
The disproportionate rates of prison populations, drug convictions, arrests speak volumes to this. The differences in how police operate in poor minority communities vs middle class white communities needs to be addressed. This ridiculous war on drugs which is almost entirely focused on poor communities of color needs to end. The vast majority of law enforcement operations involving the war on drugs happens in poor minority communities with poor minorities getting the brunt of punishments, despite the fact that everyone knows that drug use is just as prevalent in middle class and rich white communities. Any majority-white yuppie college town in the country is flooded with drugs, but the police aren't raiding dorm rooms the way they do in the ghetto.

This is such an incredibly tiresome argument, because those making it have to know that they are being dishonest.

The disproportionate rate of drug convictions, if we are to accept/believe the "white people do it too" meme, is for reasons that would be obvious to any objective observer.

Black people deal drugs in the street to strangers, often part of a street scene, with stereos blaring. They are stupidly blatant about it. Black people deal drugs out of drug houses which are run like walk-up windows. They rely on the allegations of racism, racist police actions "occupation", and racist enforcement to protect them in this blatant activity. They think the rest of us are so stupid or hog tied by the law that we have to buy that hanging out on the street and acting like criminals is simply urban black culture, and not a sign of actual criminal activity. It's bullshit, and they know it.


Suburban white people deal drugs quietly, amongst friends and acquaintances, on cell phones, in code, at parties, in bars- not out doors with their parents and the rest of the community walking or driving by pretending it isn't happening.

The point of similarity between black and white is the occasional white trailer park meth dealer which is similar to the black open air market, and those trailer parks get busted on a regular basis.

Novaheart
01-22-2012, 02:08 PM
Any majority-white yuppie college town in the country is flooded with drugs, but the police aren't raiding dorm rooms the way they do in the ghetto.

Perfect example of dishonesty. Do the police go down the hallway of a normal ghetto apartment building busting people for drugs? No. And they don't do it in a dormitory either. But if you have strangers walking the halls of either, with the tenants acting as drug merchants through open doors, then you are going to have cops there.

Seriously, did you intend to be so dishonest here? The cops don't randomly pull black guys off the street for drug dealing. They pull drug dealers off the street for being stupid.




The US has become the #1 Prison nation in the entire world, putting more of our population in prison than anyone else, even china or Iran.

Your statement here has no meaning whatsoever. We have more people in jail than a lot of countries, especially ones where you can leave a bicycle unchained while you go to the bathroom and expect it to still be there when you return. Oddly, in Indonesia people don't steal bicycles. Why? Because it's painful. We don't believe in serious punishment until a person has committed many more crimes than would be permitted in Iran. We have people in Pinellas County jail who have been arrested for theft a dozen times and still have two hands.

Novaheart
01-22-2012, 02:18 PM
A study was done where a bunch of identical resumes were sent to employers in pairs, with everything the same except the name. Half of them were "white sounding names", and half of them were "black sounding names". They wanted to see if there would be a difference in how often employers responded to these resumes. I think you could predict the results.

Then guess what? Change your name. Generations of Americans who suspected that their name might hamper them changed it to something vanilla or something exciting. You can't blame your parents for the rest of your life. If my parents had named me Elmer Cheesemaker I would have changed it to Luis von Ah. If your name is J'amiel or Kantishia then you need to think about your marketability, not because of your race, but because of your name.





Almost every single one of these things you want to change can be traced back to economic factors or government policies (like the War on Poor Brown People, I mean the war on drugs)

The war on drugs is a waste of money, but not because black people go to jail. It's a waste of money because it isn't working.

Novaheart
01-22-2012, 02:22 PM
Sorry, I am unable to predict the results.

I would, however, like to see the actual results. Do you have a link to this study?

If I get a resumι from a guy who lists Howard University as his school and one from a guy who lists USC as his school, I am going to interview the guy from USC.

IS this because the guy from Howard is probably black? From his POV probably yes. The chances that I am going to get along with a graduate from Howard University are slimmer than one from USC. The untold aspect of this is that if I only had two applications to choose from, and one was Howard and one was Berkeley, I would take the Howard because I despise Berkeley.

NJCardFan
01-22-2012, 03:52 PM
Seriously, did you intend to be so dishonest here? The cops don't randomly pull black guys off the street for drug dealing. They pull drug dealers off the street for being stupid.





That's because in the ghetto, finding drug dealers is like shooting fish in a barrel. Unless wee wee thinks there is nothing suspicious about a tricked out Cadillac Escalade in a neighborhood who's primary provider is welfare.

NJCardFan
01-22-2012, 03:53 PM
If I get a resumι from a guy who lists Howard University as his school and one from a guy who lists USC as his school, I am going to interview the guy from USC.

IS this because the guy from Howard is probably black? From his POV probably yes. The chances that I am going to get along with a graduate from Howard University are slimmer than one from USC. The untold aspect of this is that if I only had two applications to choose from, and one was Howard and one was Berkeley, I would take the Howard because I despise Berkeley.

Seriously? I'd take the Howard U guy over some glorified frat boy any day. USC otherwise known as grades 13 thru 16.

Novaheart
01-22-2012, 04:03 PM
Seriously? I'd take the Howard U guy over some glorified frat boy any day. USC otherwise known as grades 13 thru 16.

I meant the University of South Carolina

NJCardFan
01-22-2012, 04:06 PM
A study was done where a bunch of identical resumes were sent to employers in pairs, with everything the same except the name. Half of them were "white sounding names", and half of them were "black sounding names". They wanted to see if there would be a difference in how often employers responded to these resumes. I think you could predict the results.
If this statement doesn't prove how much of an idiot wee wee is, nothing does. Hey stupid, do you think there weren't any Europeans or white people who had to change their names in order to find work? Let me give you a few very famous people:

Francis Thomas Avallone
Allen Stewart Konigsberg
Jacob Gershowitz
Israel Gershowitz
Bernadette Lazzara
Moses Horowitz
Samuel Horowitz
Jerome Horowitz
Lawrence Fineberg
Edward Albert Heimberger
Joyce Penelope Wilhelmina Frankenberg
Michael James Vincenzo Gubitosi

To name a few.

JB
01-22-2012, 06:17 PM
If I get a resumι from a guy who lists Howard University as his school and one from a guy who lists USC as his school, I am going to interview the guy from USC. <snip>That's great for you but...The "study" he is referencing said that the resumes were identical. The only difference between them was the white-sounding name and the black-sounding name.

I would like him to provide a link to that study so I can see the actual results. I find it interesting from a sociological prespective and would like to read about it. Were the HR people interviewed afterward? Were they asked about their prejudices, etc. etc.

noonwitch
01-23-2012, 10:22 AM
I think it's a violation of the student teacher's free speech rights to punish him for something he said on Facebook.


Additionally, his complaint was dead-on. The comments made by the guy from the NAACP were racist.

I just hate the term "reverse racism". Racism is racism, whether it's a black person who is discriminating against white people or vice versal.

AmPat
01-23-2012, 11:04 AM
Disagree. The opinions I have heard are a bit more bald than the one in the OP. More like white teachers shouldn't even teach in urban schools where the school demographics are 90% + minority.
Sounds like by extension these same racists would be for all Black and all white schools. :rolleyes:
Why, I'd bet they have no problem with Black only schools, Caucus, scholarships, Beauty pageants, clothing lines, etc.
They should look into starting their own religion and Holiday also. :rolleyes:

Odysseus
01-23-2012, 01:39 PM
Student teachers who are enrolled in university programs generally have high expectations because they are representing their university programs. Calling the school "the worst school in the city" in a public space was not a good idea for someone representing an educational organization. He went on to say "I suppose I oughta be black or stay in my own side of town". That is simply inappropriate.
Why? It was exactly what the NAACP rep was saying.

Let's make it fair, the rep doesn't say that they should "only be hiring latino teachers", but that they should "start hiring latino teachers". You may think this is splitting hairs, but I think it's an important distinction. I think it is important for students in minority communities to have teachers from similar ethnic backgrounds who can relate to their experiences. That makes a huge difference for students who feel that school isn't for them, in part because of their race or culture. Having successful, educated people from their same ethnic background, sharing experiences as role models, gives students who might otherwise give up on school someone they can identify with and aspire to be like.
What he said was that they had to start hiring teachers by race from schools that catered only to that race. The "only" was clearly implied.


I don't think there should "only" be similar-raced teachers, but it does help
Now, if your hypothetical black student made that comment about a latino school, then yes I would think they would be justified in being reprimanded and removed from the school. .
Another double standard.


Regardless of how they dance around it, the schools in question are not simply "keeping it in mind" they are working on a quota system. Remember when the defenders of Affirmative Action insisted it wasn't about quotas?

We deal with the same situation in local police forces. Eligible black police officers are actually fairly rare, and state police forces get first pick because they pay more. The black officers go where the money it. Small towns get criticized for not having any or enough black officers, backhandedly accused of racism in hiring, when in reality the black officers aren't interested in the local jobs at the local pay rate.

We're never told the whole story in these kinds of articles, because the shitheads who write these articles and the liars at the NAACP want it to be an issue of "institutional racism" when there is critical information missing. Fewer blacks go to college than whites, by percentages, and we know that. Do blacks pursue education majors at the same rate relative to their representation as whites? Probably not. I wouldn't. If I were a black man with access to higher education, I wouldn't waste the opportunity on an education degree.

No matter what happens in this regard, you have black people generating the situation (be it teacher shortage or disruptive students) and white people being blamed for it. I can talk your bullshit as good as anyone, and some of it has some value, but most of it is simply looking for excuses as to why it's not the responsibility of black people to rectify the situation. The learning gap between black and white can be fixed for free- black culture simply has to switch from what it's doing now to what works to produce success.

• Stop putting up with the street scene.
• Stop putting up with violence and turf wars.
• Stop putting up with illegal drug trade.
• Stop putting up with street talk, prison chic, and "thug for life" bullshit.
• Cooperate with police to stop the violence and criminality.
• Stop teaching black kids that when they get into trouble it's because they are black rather than because of their choices.
• Stop acting in a way that makes other people want to avoid black people.

QFT. Couldn't have said it better.