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Janice
02-10-2012, 01:27 PM
http://i.imgur.com/jfY31.jpg

Maths 'too hard for students and dons': Universities drop subject from science courses (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099022/Maths-hard-students-dons-Universities-drop-subject-science-courses.html)

Universities are dropping maths from degree courses because students – and their lecturers – cannot cope with it, a report warns today. Decades of substandard maths education in schools has led to a ‘crisis’ in England’s number skills, threatening the future of the economy, it says.

Universities are being forced to dumb down degree courses requiring the use of maths, including sciences, economics, psychology and social sciences. Students are unable to tackle complex problems and their lecturers struggle to teach them anyway, it is claimed. >>>

After looking at maths education in other countries, the authors found that lessons and qualifications in English schools were ‘not fit for purpose’. They say that classes fail to stretch the brightest while leaving weaker pupils ill-equipped to use maths for work and family budgeting, and warn of a growing knock-on effect on universities.

‘English universities are sidelining quantitative and mathematical content because students and staff lack the requisite confidence and ability,’ the report says, adding that English universities are ‘not keeping pace’ with international standards. Some universities are no longer advertising the level of maths needed to study particular subjects for fear of putting off applicants, the report warns.

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Kids are ready to go. Train and educate them, and they do respond. Fill them with mush, and mush they will retain. And generations of welfare recipients are taking its toll on society. When you have three, possibly four, generations now with no family history of having worked gainfully, even the incentive to learn is being bred out of the genes. Math is a great discipline for learning how to think, something that must not be tolerated in our new socialist world order.

Arroyo_Doble
02-10-2012, 01:39 PM
I can understand some degrees but economics? Science? How in the world can you get a science degree (other than maybe Biology ... the science of naming things) without the math?

Rockntractor
02-10-2012, 01:39 PM
Western civilization has already committed suicide, all that remains is to fall over.

noonwitch
02-10-2012, 01:44 PM
I chose WMU over MSU because at the time, I could get a BSW without taking a single math class. That is no longer possible at WMU, it wasn't a year after I started, but it applied to me because I entered under that policy. I took two science classes instead, one was called "Landscapes of National Parks".




I am that math challenged. I had some good teachers, but the two or three bad ones happened to be in crucial years. My sixth grade math teacher told me "It's a good thing you're a girl, because girls don't need to be good at math".

Starbuck
02-10-2012, 02:05 PM
..............I am that math challenged. I had some good teachers, but the two or three bad ones happened to be in crucial years. My sixth grade math teacher told me "It's a good thing you're a girl, because girls don't need to be good at math".......

*Derail thread*.....I don't understand that. You are a musician of some sort, aren't you? Musicians universally (I thought) had superior math and mechanical skills..... Music was taught as a form of math by the Greeks..... The Japanese code was broken by the band from one of the ships sunk and Pearl Harbor.....test after test has revealed that little oddity....

Unless you are a singer - they're different - you are an unexplained and rare anomaly:)
*Thread back on track*

Thank God the article concerned itself with schools in England. I know we complain a lot about American schools, but at least we have not sunk to the level of the English. Still, to this day, if a superior student from another continent has the opportunity, they will choose to advance their education here in America.

Janice
02-10-2012, 02:16 PM
Thank God the article concerned itself with schools in England. I know we complain a lot about American schools, but at least we have not sunk to the level of the English. Still, to this day, if a superior student from another continent has the opportunity, they will choose to advance their education here in America.


I view this as a kind of warning. We often look to our cousins across the pond to see what is coming our way. Esp on matters regarding the degeneration of a free and informed society.

Retread
02-10-2012, 02:18 PM
While I pursued a degree in math my daughter just could not handle it. We worked each and every school year and she worked very hard. She ended up with decent grades simply by memorizing.

Then she taught 3rd grade- while using the counting sticks to teach the kids it all dawned on her in a flash. Now she has no problem.

Side note - From my perspective there are two things here. There is arithmetic and then there is math. Seriously I am a whale of an arithmetician but a less than astute mathematician. This realization came after working closely for a time with two folks with PhD’s in Mathematics. Their brains are wired differently.

TooManyChiefs
02-10-2012, 02:37 PM
You can only teach someone so much math. A lot of people, myself included, just dont have the tolerance for it. Teaching an English major calculus makes no sense and really only alienates people from getting an education.

noonwitch
02-10-2012, 02:41 PM
*Derail thread*.....I don't understand that. You are a musician of some sort, aren't you? Musicians universally (I thought) had superior math and mechanical skills..... Music was taught as a form of math by the Greeks..... The Japanese code was broken by the band from one of the ships sunk and Pearl Harbor.....test after test has revealed that little oddity....

Unless you are a singer - they're different - you are an unexplained and rare anomaly:)
*Thread back on track*

Thank God the article concerned itself with schools in England. I know we complain a lot about American schools, but at least we have not sunk to the level of the English. Still, to this day, if a superior student from another continent has the opportunity, they will choose to advance their education here in America.

I played the violin through high school. I was pretty good by those standards, but not "good enough". I never understood music theory, and my teacher didn't bother trying to teach it to me after a while, and we focused mostly on technique.

Arroyo_Doble
02-10-2012, 02:44 PM
While I pursued a degree in math my daughter just could not handle it. We worked each and every school year and she worked very hard. She ended up with decent grades simply by memorizing.

Then she taught 3rd grade- while using the counting sticks to teach the kids it all dawned on her in a flash. Now she has no problem.

Side note - From my perspective there are two things here. There is arithmetic and then there is math. Seriously I am a whale of an arithmetician but a less than astute mathematician. This realization came after working closely for a time with two folks with PhD’s in Mathematics. Their brains are wired differently.

Obviously, there are savants but for normal people like me I think it is like the athlete's "muscle memory." If you work at math, practice it over and over, your brain has that same "muscle memory" and things like differential equations are easily dealt with.

But if you stop, your brain gets flabby.

Rockntractor
02-10-2012, 02:51 PM
Obviously, there are savants but for normal people like me I think it is like the athlete's "muscle memory." If you work at math, practice it over and over, your brain has that same "muscle memory" and things like differential equations are easily dealt with.

But if you stop, your brain gets flabby.

I bet you are good with metric weight conversions and such!

Arroyo_Doble
02-10-2012, 02:55 PM
I bet you are good with metric weight conversions and such!

Not really. I don't even try. I just think in metric units when necessary and British units when required.

fettpett
02-10-2012, 03:41 PM
so instead of fixing the problem, substandard math skills and actually teaching math, they get rid of it? wtf? :confused:

Odysseus
02-10-2012, 04:04 PM
I can understand some degrees but economics? Science? How in the world can you get a science degree (other than maybe Biology ... the science of naming things) without the math?

Math is critical to biology. In medicine, calculations of weights, volumes and statistics are critical to dealing with the most basic aspects of patient care and preventive practice. Biochemistry is almost all math.

In fact, math is critical to all sorts of professions that have nothing to do with the hard sciences. The reason that there was a Renaissance in the first place was the introduction of mathematical thinkers to the arts. The advent of gunpowder demanded precision in metal casting, which was previously done by artisans. When mathematically inclined people started doing metalwork, they applied the same mindset to their observations of form for sculpture. You cannot have great art without the ability to translate ideas into form, to calculate, in other words.

Novaheart
02-10-2012, 05:07 PM
I can understand some degrees but economics? Science? How in the world can you get a science degree (other than maybe Biology ... the science of naming things) without the math?

I didn't read the entire article. Are we talking about getting rid of all "maths" or just the ones that aren't essential to the major or which can easily be done by machine?

When I was a kid, calculators were the latest thing and teachers and parents alike said that we shouldn't be allowed to use them because one day the nukes would go off, the power would go off, the batteries would die, and there we would be unable to calculate the amortization schedule of a mortgage. Now kids can use calculators in class and on tests.

You don't really need to know most of the math required for a given major. It's used to prop up a department and to weed out those who can't do math. These universities do a lot of propping up by requiring courses which have no practical application to the major. I mean seriously, what has anthropology got to do with a football major?

AmPat
02-10-2012, 06:22 PM
so instead of fixing the problem, substandard math skills and actually teaching math, they get rid of it? wtf? :confused:

Oh goodie. Now if they just get rid of those other nuisance subjects like English, Biology, Geography, etc, I'll go back and get a couple more degrees.

fettpett
02-10-2012, 06:29 PM
You don't really need to know most of the math required for a given major. It's used to prop up a department and to weed out those who can't do math. These universities do a lot of propping up by requiring courses which have no practical application to the major. I mean seriously, what has anthropology got to do with a football major?

you mean soccer major?

Hawkgirl
02-10-2012, 07:56 PM
"Math and Sciences" were always grouped together. The erosion of the American education system continues....:(

fettpett
02-10-2012, 07:57 PM
"Math and Sciences" were always grouped together. The erosion of the American education system continues....:(

this is in England :p

Hawkgirl
02-10-2012, 08:01 PM
this is in England :p

Oh snap....I didn't read the fine print.:o

Janice
02-10-2012, 11:56 PM
this is in England :p

Yeah, but it starts over there ... then ends up here.

Count on it.

Rockntractor
02-11-2012, 12:00 AM
this is in England :p

It was easy to tell too from the picture of the Arab teacher!:D

Novaheart
02-11-2012, 12:49 AM
It was easy to tell too from the picture of the Arab teacher!:D

He can do "maths" but he can't ask for a shirt with the proper size and sleeve length?

Rockntractor
02-11-2012, 12:59 AM
He can do "maths" but he can't ask for a shirt with the proper size and sleeve length?

They must have the Walmarts in England, Faded Glory.

FlaGator
02-11-2012, 01:46 PM
http://i.imgur.com/jfY31.jpg

Maths 'too hard for students and dons': Universities drop subject from science courses (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099022/Maths-hard-students-dons-Universities-drop-subject-science-courses.html)

Universities are dropping maths from degree courses because students – and their lecturers – cannot cope with it, a report warns today. Decades of substandard maths education in schools has led to a ‘crisis’ in England’s number skills, threatening the future of the economy, it says.

Universities are being forced to dumb down degree courses requiring the use of maths, including sciences, economics, psychology and social sciences. Students are unable to tackle complex problems and their lecturers struggle to teach them anyway, it is claimed. >>>

After looking at maths education in other countries, the authors found that lessons and qualifications in English schools were ‘not fit for purpose’. They say that classes fail to stretch the brightest while leaving weaker pupils ill-equipped to use maths for work and family budgeting, and warn of a growing knock-on effect on universities.

‘English universities are sidelining quantitative and mathematical content because students and staff lack the requisite confidence and ability,’ the report says, adding that English universities are ‘not keeping pace’ with international standards. Some universities are no longer advertising the level of maths needed to study particular subjects for fear of putting off applicants, the report warns.

-----------------------------------------------------

Kids are ready to go. Train and educate them, and they do respond. Fill them with mush, and mush they will retain. And generations of welfare recipients are taking its toll on society. When you have three, possibly four, generations now with no family history of having worked gainfully, even the incentive to learn is being bred out of the genes. Math is a great discipline for learning how to think, something that must not be tolerated in our new socialist world order.


And this is why I can't find qualified IT people in America and have to interview lots of people from India to fill vacancies.

Novaheart
02-11-2012, 02:25 PM
And this is why I can't find qualified IT people in America and have to interview lots of people from India to fill vacancies.

Maybe the better perspective would be to consider the degree programs we accept foreign students into and those which American students are allowed to use federal money and scholarships for?

It thoroughly irritated me that my sister allowed my nephews to attend college in Scotland at a very high cost without requiring that they earn marketable degrees. The best I can say about their degrees is that it qualifies them to get higher degrees. Hopefully in something in demand and well paid.

Why are we allowing taxpayer subsidies to be used for degrees that have no practical application other than teaching in those same subjects?

Somewhere along the way, we of the "post industrial society" decided that American middle class and poor people were supposed to be able to get a degree in Art Appreciation like a child of a robber baron who would never have to work outside a duty to the museums. We even decided that we weren't going to have American doctors and nurses so much anymore. The last time I was in the hospital, it was like some weird British movie, where all the patients were Anglos and all the doctors were Indian or Paki.

djones520
02-11-2012, 02:33 PM
I can understand some degrees but economics? Science? How in the world can you get a science degree (other than maybe Biology ... the science of naming things) without the math?

I'm getting mine in Environmental Health Sciences. I just needed the basic math's. Those were a bitch as it was, but in my defense it's been 10 years since I took an actual math course.

fettpett
02-11-2012, 02:43 PM
I need pre-clac for mine, Business Administration

Novaheart
02-11-2012, 02:44 PM
I'm getting mine in Environmental Health Sciences.

What does that qualify you to do?

ETA- For clarification, this is not a mockery of your major, I am seriously wondering what occupations that degree is a door opener for. I have a friend who checked ground water and stuff around gas stations for leakage and infiltration of the water table, but I always thought that was geology for some reason.

Odysseus
02-11-2012, 03:49 PM
I didn't read the entire article. Are we talking about getting rid of all "maths" or just the ones that aren't essential to the major or which can easily be done by machine?

When I was a kid, calculators were the latest thing and teachers and parents alike said that we shouldn't be allowed to use them because one day the nukes would go off, the power would go off, the batteries would die, and there we would be unable to calculate the amortization schedule of a mortgage. Now kids can use calculators in class and on tests.
And their understanding of the basic functions has diminished. My daughter is being taught math the "new" way, and is have difficulty with it. I began teaching her the way that I was taught, and she's nailing it, and her grades shot up accordingly.

You don't really need to know most of the math required for a given major. It's used to prop up a department and to weed out those who can't do math. These universities do a lot of propping up by requiring courses which have no practical application to the major. I mean seriously, what has anthropology got to do with a football major?
Both study broken bones.

What does that qualify you to do?

Ha can tell you that your toilet uses too much water, your car uses too much gas and you need to recycle more. :D

djones520
02-11-2012, 04:43 PM
What does that qualify you to do?

ETA- For clarification, this is not a mockery of your major, I am seriously wondering what occupations that degree is a door opener for. I have a friend who checked ground water and stuff around gas stations for leakage and infiltration of the water table, but I always thought that was geology for some reason.

It seems to be a pretty widespread field. My first class centered on the idea of working in a team whose goal is to improve sanitation conditions of communities, especially in 3rd world nations. The classes I'm taking now are about educating and spreading awareness of health impacts, like diseases.

I've got animal control classes, a health care computer system class, and plenty more. It all just seems to be about general health issues that can affect communities.

I would imagine that my best chance of finding work with it will be in State, Federal, and big city governments.

FlaGator
02-11-2012, 09:31 PM
Maybe the better perspective would be to consider the degree programs we accept foreign students into and those which American students are allowed to use federal money and scholarships for?

It thoroughly irritated me that my sister allowed my nephews to attend college in Scotland at a very high cost without requiring that they earn marketable degrees. The best I can say about their degrees is that it qualifies them to get higher degrees. Hopefully in something in demand and well paid.

Why are we allowing taxpayer subsidies to be used for degrees that have no practical application other than teaching in those same subjects?

Somewhere along the way, we of the "post industrial society" decided that American middle class and poor people were supposed to be able to get a degree in Art Appreciation like a child of a robber baron who would never have to work outside a duty to the museums. We even decided that we weren't going to have American doctors and nurses so much anymore. The last time I was in the hospital, it was like some weird British movie, where all the patients were Anglos and all the doctors were Indian or Paki.

You know, from the prospective of someone who is tasked with weeding out applicants in order to get to those who are qualified where and how they got their education matters little. However, most of those I interview form India and Mexico (yes, Mexico provides the US with qualified IT applicants) got their degree in their home country with no assistance form US subsides.

America does a poor job of educating people in high tech skills and the article in the OP only reinforces this. As you pointed out, people are able to earn basically worthless degrees that prove only where they spent their quality drinking time between the ages of 18 and 22. I blame this on the fact that the college and university system in the U.S. have a symbiotic relationship with the student loan industry. Everyone makes out but the student who spends 4 years and $60,000+ dollars only to end up working in a job that required no degree to begin with.