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View Full Version : Why is school prayer only allowed during tragedies?



Hawkgirl
02-28-2012, 08:56 PM
It was supposed to be a fairly quiet week at Chardon High School.

<snip>

But normal changed at approximately 7:30 Monday morning.

Gunfire. Screams. Chaos.

A teenager – an outcast – armed with a gun – walked into the school cafeteria. In a matter of moments, five students were gunned down. At least one child died.

Terrified students huddled in classrooms. They called 911. They texted and tweeted. Teachers locked doors and implemented emergency procedures.
<snip>

As police try to make sense of the senseless, the school superintendent called on people to pray.
<snip>

if God is good enough for the bad times, shouldn’t He be good enough for the good times?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/27/why-is-school-prayer-only-allowed-during-tragedies/

Good point...why is God only called in times of peril?? Why not thank God every day for blessings? I think removing God and prayer from the public school system has done damage to our youth.

Odysseus
02-28-2012, 10:07 PM
It was supposed to be a fairly quiet week at Chardon High School.

<snip>

But normal changed at approximately 7:30 Monday morning.

Gunfire. Screams. Chaos.

A teenager – an outcast – armed with a gun – walked into the school cafeteria. In a matter of moments, five students were gunned down. At least one child died.

Terrified students huddled in classrooms. They called 911. They texted and tweeted. Teachers locked doors and implemented emergency procedures.
<snip>

As police try to make sense of the senseless, the school superintendent called on people to pray.
<snip>

if God is good enough for the bad times, shouldn’t He be good enough for the good times?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/27/why-is-school-prayer-only-allowed-during-tragedies/

Good point...why is God only called in times of peril?? Why not thank God every day for blessings? I think removing God and prayer from the public school system has done damage to our youth.

Considering the tragic state of unionized public schools, they ought to be in constant prayer.

JB
02-28-2012, 10:20 PM
As police try to make sense of the senseless, the school superintendent called on people to pray.

if God is good enough for the bad times, shouldn’t He be good enough for the good times?The irony is, if a kid made that the topic of an essay they'd probably tell him he couldn't write about it.

Good find.

Hawkgirl
02-28-2012, 10:42 PM
Considering the tragic state of unionized public schools, they ought to be in constant prayer.

Agreed, the only thing that can help them now is a miracle from God.

Wei Wu Wei
02-28-2012, 10:56 PM
It's actually very common for sports teams, at least in Texas, to pray together during games. Then again, at least in Texas, coaches are given special treatment in how they can handle students.

JB
02-28-2012, 11:00 PM
It's actually very common for sports teams, at least in Texas, to pray together during games. Then again, at least in Texas, coaches are given special treatment in how they can handle students.That might be the last place where you could still pull that off.

That's going the way of the dodo too.

Wei Wu Wei
02-28-2012, 11:03 PM
The irony is, if a kid made that the topic of an essay they'd probably tell him he couldn't write about it.

Good find.

That's not true, again, at least not in Texas.

There is a serious overblown hysteria about what schools are like. Fox News would have you think that kids get suspended for bowing their head before lunch and writing the word "God" or "Jesus" anywhere will get you expelled. It's a joke.

Kids in school frequently wear their religion on their sleeves, they can write about it, they can talk about it, they share their experiences involving church and more. Schools do not participate in supporting any religion or religions, but they are open to them. Students don't have to leave their religion at the door, there is simply an expectation of all students to be respectful to one another.

Don't buy into the nonsense, it's a fantasy.

Hawkgirl
02-28-2012, 11:18 PM
WW3, the article is not talking about Texas, specifically. Don't act naive. The country as a whole has turned away from prayer and God in our public school system. Trying to say otherwise is dishonest.

hai
02-28-2012, 11:20 PM
I don't get it myself. When i was a kid,i was required to say the pledge of allegiance in school.

Wei Wu Wei
02-28-2012, 11:29 PM
WW3, the article is not talking about Texas, specifically. Don't act naive. The country as a whole has turned away from prayer and God in our public school system. Trying to say otherwise is dishonest.

What are you basing this on?

When you were a little girl, did your public school teacher lead the class in an organized prayer?

When I was a child, we were allowed to pray if we wanted, but it was not led. As I got into high school, "moment's of silence" were given where kids were specifically told they could dedicate that time to prayer if they so choose. Some kids would pray before lunch and church-going students organized their activities at school all the time. I prayed with my team before every football game throughout the years and it wasn't unusual for God to come up within in-class discussions. Of course these discussions never turned to the theological in any depth, but there were many church-going students who felt natural in bringing their beliefs into literature discussions or social studies.

There is no difference from how things are done today. Again, my experiences are in reference to Texas because my experience are limited to Texas.

ABC
02-28-2012, 11:44 PM
The year was 1963, when it all changed.

For those of you too young to remember (or were not yet even born) back in 1963 ... the first name that came to mind for me "regarding removal of school prayer" ... was the name Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

While she was not totally responsible for it, she did play a role and the MSM coverage was mainly all about her.


Who Was Madalyn Murray O'Hair?
<snip<

Murray was known for her role in the landmark 1963 Supreme Court decision in Murray v. Curlett , which, combined with Abington v. Schempp , ended school prayer in public schools across the U.S. and turned her into the self-described "most hated woman in America."


Read more here: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Secular-Philosophies/Who-Was-Madalyn-Murray-Ohair.aspx

~ ABC

Hawkgirl
02-29-2012, 12:03 AM
What are you basing this on?

When you were a little girl, did your public school teacher lead the class in an organized prayer?

.

I went to Catholic schools, we started the morning with prayers and the Pledge of Allegiance.
THE HORROR! :DDsmilie_panic::DDsmilie_panic:

NJCardFan
02-29-2012, 12:08 AM
I went to Catholic schools, we started the morning with prayers and the Pledge of Allegiance.
THE HORROR! :DDsmilie_panic::DDsmilie_panic:

Off topic, you're sig is awesome.

Hawkgirl
02-29-2012, 12:12 AM
Off topic, you're sig is awesome.

Thanks, their lyrics are always very profound. Another favorite line from Wish you were here that I had as my sig on another forum...."a smile from a veil, do you think you can tell?"

Wei Wu Wei
02-29-2012, 12:20 AM
Thanks, their lyrics are always very profound. Another favorite line from Wish you were here that I had as my sig on another forum...."a smile from a veil, do you think you can tell?"

That's my probably my favorite pink floyd song.

Odysseus
02-29-2012, 01:26 AM
That's not true, again, at least not in Texas.

There is a serious overblown hysteria about what schools are like. Fox News would have you think that kids get suspended for bowing their head before lunch and writing the word "God" or "Jesus" anywhere will get you expelled. It's a joke.

Kids in school frequently wear their religion on their sleeves, they can write about it, they can talk about it, they share their experiences involving church and more. Schools do not participate in supporting any religion or religions, but they are open to them. Students don't have to leave their religion at the door, there is simply an expectation of all students to be respectful to one another.

Don't buy into the nonsense, it's a fantasy.

Like your economic theories?

My daughter's school, in Temple, TX, was very careful to avoid religious expressions, although she did apparently get a lesson on Christianity from a substitute teacher, who managed to convey to her that they nailed Jesus to the cross so that he wouldn't fall off. I mentioned it to the principal the next time that I saw her, because I thought that it was funny, but she visibly flinched and asked if I wanted to file a complaint.

NJCardFan
02-29-2012, 01:59 AM
Thanks, their lyrics are always very profound. Another favorite line from Wish you were here that I had as my sig on another forum...."a smile from a veil, do you think you can tell?"

Wish You Were Here is probably one of the greatest songs ever written and more so because it was from the heart. The entire album was a dedication to Syd Barrett who, oddly enough, showed up at the recording sessions but the members of the band didn't recognize him at first. Here is what he looked like at those sessions:
http://www.neptunepinkfloyd.co.uk/photos/var/albums/Syd-Barrett-Photos/Recent/Syd%20Barrett%20Wish%20You%20Were%20Here%20Session s.jpg?m=1316948127

The Biography Network did a bio of the band and it was as stirring a story I've ever seen. Shame of it is that Waters let his ego get the best of him by barely allowing Gilmore any input in a lot of the songwriting, especially for The Wall, which is pretty much 100% all Waters. I really hope for a reunion but without Richard Wright it's going to be very hard.

MrsSmith
02-29-2012, 07:51 AM
What are you basing this on?

When you were a little girl, did your public school teacher lead the class in an organized prayer?

When I was a child, we were allowed to pray if we wanted, but it was not led. As I got into high school, "moment's of silence" were given where kids were specifically told they could dedicate that time to prayer if they so choose. Some kids would pray before lunch and church-going students organized their activities at school all the time. I prayed with my team before every football game throughout the years and it wasn't unusual for God to come up within in-class discussions. Of course these discussions never turned to the theological in any depth, but there were many church-going students who felt natural in bringing their beliefs into literature discussions or social studies.

There is no difference from how things are done today. Again, my experiences are in reference to Texas because my experience are limited to Texas.

She's basing this on case law. Duh.

When I grew up, we did have a prayer every morning, and then recited the Pledge. We were allowed to sing actual hymns during our "Christmas" show (now deemed Holiday show), had Christmas vacation, Easter vacation and were allowed other **gasp** religious expressions in the classroom and in the school calendar.

Today, news reports are full of instances where children have been punished for bringing Bibles or religious literature to school, Valedictorian students have experienced school-required edits to their speeches, and students have been ordered to stop wearing religious symbols like rosaries.

A few decades ago, there was no reason or need for organizations like the ACLJ or FIRE. They now represent thousands of people every year that have had their free speech rights destroyed by the complaints of a few atheists.

Your ignorance of current events does not constitute a basis for claiming "nothing has changed."

noonwitch
02-29-2012, 10:43 AM
I don't think every school district in the country bans prayer in school. Most just don't want teacher-led prayer during class time. No school can stop a student from praying silently, and students have the right to gather in the school after or before school to pray.

My school was pretty open, as far as religion went, but there were occasionally issues. Young Life could put up signs in the halls to tell us where this week's meeting was going to be held, and their counselors could come and eat lunch with us (as could anyone's clergy), but they couldn't be in the yearbook. We didn't say the pledge every day in middle or high school, but the principal said a prayer on the p.a. system when President Reagan was shot. You could say grace over your lunch (in Grand Rapids you will see lots of people saying grace in restaurants) and pray with your friends if you felt like it at lunchtime or between classes.




I'm neutral about the whole Christmas concert vs Winter concert thing-a creative music teacher can figure a way around it. If our high school choir and orchestra combined to play Vivaldi's "Gloria" for our "Winter Concert", then we were admired for our ability to play such grown up music, not criticized for performing "christian" music.

Hawkgirl
02-29-2012, 07:12 PM
Wish You Were Here is probably one of the greatest songs ever written and more so because it was from the heart. The entire album was a dedication to Syd Barrett

Yes it was..

Pink Floyd is my favorite band...EVER. They are at the top of my long list of favorite musicians. They are poets.

Hawkgirl
02-29-2012, 07:21 PM
That's my probably my favorite pink floyd song.
Definitely one of my fav's...just wish it were longer...


So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have you found? The same old fears.
Wish you were here.



Today's music can't compare.

Eupher
02-29-2012, 07:34 PM
In all honesty, I do not remember actively praying in school, but certainly pledged allegiance to the Flag, sang Christmas carols, passed out Easter candy/eggs, and otherwise was FREE to either embrace it or reject it, as I chose.

I find the current practice of freedom FROM religion a far cry from freedom OF religion.

Sorry -- I got a little wistful there.

Thinking about the freedoms we all used to have and no longer have does that to me.

Arroyo_Doble
02-29-2012, 07:41 PM
In all honesty, I do not remember actively praying in school, but certainly pledged allegiance to the Flag, sang Christmas carols, passed out Easter candy/eggs, and otherwise was FREE to either embrace it or reject it, as I chose.

I find the current practice of freedom FROM religion a far cry from freedom OF religion.

Sorry -- I got a little wistful there.

Thinking about the freedoms we all used to have and no longer have does that to me.

They still do that in Texas. They also do the Pledge of Allegiance to the Texas flag. At least in FWISD.



"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."

Hawkgirl
02-29-2012, 07:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer

noonwitch
03-01-2012, 04:01 PM
Definitely one of my fav's...just wish it were longer...


So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?
How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have you found? The same old fears.
Wish you were here.



Today's music can't compare.


It's also one of my favorite songs. It always makes me think of friends I've lost.

I bought a CD of Bettye Lavette covering songs by british groups, and Wish You Were Here was one of them. She changes the lyrics a little, because she is singing it for her old Motown buddies who have died, Marvin Gaye and the guy from the Temptations. She covers "The Word" (The Beatles), "Nights in White Satin", "All Of My Love" and a few others.

Bettye Lavette was a Detroit singer who never joined the Motown label (like Jackie Wilson), so she always was kind of in the backround during the Motown years. She's having a resurgence in her career in the past few years.

Novaheart
03-01-2012, 04:08 PM
Considering the tragic state of unionized public schools, they ought to be in constant prayer.

What a ridiculous and unfounded analysis. The worst schools in the country are chock full of Catholics and Baptists- they are called ghetto schools.

Odysseus
03-01-2012, 04:43 PM
What a ridiculous and unfounded analysis. The worst schools in the country are chock full of Catholics and Baptists- they are called ghetto schools.

And they are public schools, where prayer is not permitted. I stand by my statement.

Zeus
03-01-2012, 06:08 PM
It's actually very common for sports teams, at least in Texas, to pray together during games. Then again, at least in Texas, coaches are given special treatment in how they can handle students.

High School Football is an organized religion in Texas :biggrin-new:

Hawkgirl
03-01-2012, 07:47 PM
What a ridiculous and unfounded analysis. The worst schools in the country are chock full of Catholics and Baptists- they are called ghetto schools.

Care to back that up with a link or study?

Arroyo_Doble
03-01-2012, 07:50 PM
Care to back that up with a link or study?

I could be reading it wrong but I think he is making a reference to urban schools with majority black and Hispanic populations.

Hawkgirl
03-01-2012, 07:52 PM
I could be reading it wrong but I think he is making a reference to urban schools with majority black and Hispanic populations.

So he's a racist?

Arroyo_Doble
03-01-2012, 07:57 PM
So he's a racist?

Nova? Oh, hell yes. Don't you read his stuff?

But that aside, I don't necessarily think it is inaccurate to say some of the worst schools are in urban areas.

Hawkgirl
03-01-2012, 08:01 PM
Nova? Oh, hell yes. Don't you read his stuff?

But that aside, I don't necessarily think it is inaccurate to say some of the worst schools are in urban areas.


Did you read his statement? IF not, go back and read his post.

Zeus
03-01-2012, 09:23 PM
WW3, the article is not talking about Texas, specifically. Don't act naive. The country as a whole has turned away from prayer and God in our public school system. Trying to say otherwise is dishonest.

Public schools, hell the public square. Public in general. It's that damn wall ya know & I ain't talking Pink Floyd either.

ABC
03-01-2012, 09:46 PM
High School Football is an organized religion in Texas :biggrin-new:

Zeus ...

You are 100% correct. We lived in Plano, Tx. for 7 years while our son was in high school. Can't remember who did it at the time (son is 46 now) ... the opposing losing team actually went out one night, and BURNED their team's letters into the football field grass!

Without going into detail ... even the highschool districts and where the strongest players lived seemed to be set up politically! We lived in West Plano at the time ... have no idea what it is like these days.

It truly *is* almost a religion in Texas, as you said. :lemo:


~ ABC

Novaheart
03-01-2012, 10:25 PM
Nova? Oh, hell yes. Don't you read his stuff? .

I defy you to quote a racist post of mine from this or any other board. Islam and illegal alien are not races.

Novaheart
03-01-2012, 10:27 PM
I could be reading it wrong but I think he is making a reference to urban schools with majority black and Hispanic populations.

Correct.

Zeus
03-01-2012, 10:55 PM
Zeus ...

You are 100% correct. We lived in Plano, Tx. for 7 years while our son was in high school. Can't remember who did it at the time (son is 46 now) ... the opposing losing team actually went out one night, and BURNED their team's letters into the football field grass!

Without going into detail ... even the highschool districts and where the strongest players lived seemed to be set up politically! We lived in West Plano at the time ... have no idea what it is like these days.

It truly *is* almost a religion in Texas, as you said. :lemo:


~ ABC

When my son played HS football for Copperas Cove on friday nights Cove turned into a ghost town because everyone was at the stadium watching the Dawgs play. Back then the dawgs had made it to the state semi finals something like 8 of 10 yrs. Now that an alum was named the Heisman trophy winner and possible #1 NFL draft pick I'm betting there will be calls for a bigger and better cathederal for the Dawgs to play in.

OH Well Better Football than carjacking & ho slappin'

Plugback into thread: I do recall some evenings at the game when an offical clergymen gave an prayer. But that was usually in line with Military Appreciation night or a a town wide money raiser for a family that lost everything in a fire or some kid severely injured in an accident of sorts.

Lanie
03-01-2012, 11:32 PM
It was supposed to be a fairly quiet week at Chardon High School.

<snip>

But normal changed at approximately 7:30 Monday morning.

Gunfire. Screams. Chaos.

A teenager – an outcast – armed with a gun – walked into the school cafeteria. In a matter of moments, five students were gunned down. At least one child died.

Terrified students huddled in classrooms. They called 911. They texted and tweeted. Teachers locked doors and implemented emergency procedures.
<snip>

As police try to make sense of the senseless, the school superintendent called on people to pray.
<snip>

if God is good enough for the bad times, shouldn’t He be good enough for the good times?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/27/why-is-school-prayer-only-allowed-during-tragedies/

Good point...why is God only called in times of peril?? Why not thank God every day for blessings? I think removing God and prayer from the public school system has done damage to our youth.

Why do people insist on this lie that God isn't in the schools? We have FCA, possibly other faith groups, individual prayer. God is in school. What's gone is teacher and administrative lead prayer.

When you go into a grocery store, you don't hear the manager making a prayer on the intercom. Nobody goes around saying junk like "God isn't allowed in the grocery stores."

The idea that prayer isn't allowed in school is a flat out lie. I realize that sounds harsh, but it's true. It's a lie.

on edit: Think I should share what I did today. I substituted for a chorus teacher who wanted me to show a video. Okay. The video was a musical about Joseph and his brothers. I know how we'll get away with it if asked. It's simply art. Nobody is making the kids believe in it or whatever. I think people who aren't in the schools would be surprised to see what is allowed.

ABC
03-02-2012, 12:07 AM
Why do people insist on this lie that God isn't in the schools?

Okay ...

Put it this way. Is "Christianity" allowed to be celebrated or even discussed in public schools these days?

If so ... what happened to Christmas trees, Christmas Pageants, Christmas Carols being sung by school choirs, etc.?

Aren't "Christmas" trees referred to as "Holiday Trees" or some such nonsense?

I just love it when shopping at Christmas time when folks in the stores are told to wish customers a "Happy Holliday!" ... I always delightedly ask them, "What holiday? ... You mean Christmas?" Some *do* apologize for having to say it ... but others? The look on their faces is priceless!

Don't they even know where the word "Holiday" comes from? Guess not, huh?

Slightly off topic the last paragraphs were, sorry ... but you can't tell me, Lanie, that God/Christ is allowed in the public schools.

All the Liberal, secular, and non-Christian parents would be screaming bloody murder and suing the school, left right and center!

~ ABC

Zeus
03-02-2012, 11:21 AM
Why do people insist on this lie that God isn't in the schools? We have FCA, possibly other faith groups, individual prayer. God is in school. What's gone is teacher and administrative lead prayer.

When you go into a grocery store, you don't hear the manager making a prayer on the intercom. Nobody goes around saying junk like "God isn't allowed in the grocery stores."

The idea that prayer isn't allowed in school is a flat out lie. I realize that sounds harsh, but it's true. It's a lie.

on edit: Think I should share what I did today. I substituted for a chorus teacher who wanted me to show a video. Okay. The video was a musical about Joseph and his brothers. I know how we'll get away with it if asked. It's simply art. Nobody is making the kids believe in it or whatever. I think people who aren't in the schools would be surprised to see what is allowed.

Outside of the Bible Belt and certain Midwestern enclaves you can not truth say that God has not been kicked out of Public schools , public squares and various other parts of the american society. Sure in the places you might see it openly practiced Christianity is also put in amongst a plethora of various other incantation so it is no longer a religious observance but more of a carnival atmosphere.

Approx 83 % of the USA population is Christian or Jewish yet they are dictated to by the approx 5% of non christian or Atheist population of how ,when & where christians/Jews can observe/practice their religion rather contrary to the 1st amendment. I thought it was the 1st amend for a very particular reason, I guess I was taught wrong

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 01:36 PM
OH Well Better Football than carjacking & ho slappin'



Around here those activities aren't mutually exclusive. I rode up to the high school one night to watch the game, and there were ghetto gang wannabes in matching t shirts and cops everywhere.

Zeus
03-02-2012, 01:40 PM
Around here those activities aren't mutually exclusive. I rode up to the high school one night to watch the game, and there were ghetto gang wannabes in matching t shirts and cops everywhere.

yea but not a Heisman trophy winner or number 1 draft pick in the bunch. :rolleyes:

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Outside of the Bible Belt and certain Midwestern enclaves you can not truth say that God has not been kicked out of Public schools , public squares and various other parts of the american society. Sure in the places you might see it openly practiced Christianity is also put in amongst a plethora of various other incantation so it is no longer a religious observance but more of a carnival atmosphere.

Approx 83 % of the USA population is Christian or Jewish yet they are dictated to by the approx 5% of non christian or Atheist population of how ,when & where christians/Jews can observe/practice their religion rather contrary to the 1st amendment. I thought it was the 1st amend for a very particular reason, I guess I was taught wrong

In 1970 I went from a private religious school in rural Maryland to a public school in Washington DC. At Catholic school we had morning prayers, religion class, mass on Wednesday, and said Hail Marys when the ambulance went by because it was a small town and the person in the ambulance was likely a neighbor or relation. In public school, we didn't have morning prayer, religion class, mass on Wednesday, or say Hail Marys when an ambulance went by. Other than that, there wasn't a lot of difference.

I went to a junior high school where half the students were Jewish. We had Christmas decorations and a Christmas program for parents in which the chorus, the band, art classes, and such would do their thing. No problems. Jewish kids also wore kippahs to school (dorky kids mostly), and went to Yeshiva and B'nai B'rith or AZA after school.

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 01:51 PM
Approx 83 % of the USA population is Christian or Jewish yet they are dictated to by the approx 5% of non christian or Atheist population of how ,when & where christians/Jews can observe/practice their religion rather contrary to the 1st amendment. I thought it was the 1st amend for a very particular reason, I guess I was taught wrong

That's a deceptive figure. My Jewish friends would identify as Jewish in a poll, and many of my Christian friends would identify as Christian in a poll- but these are ethnic terms, not religious ones. My Jewish friends go to services once or twice a year and have religious holidays with family at home. My Christian friends go to services once or twice a year and have religious holidays with family at home.

My brother in law calls himself a Christmas Christian. That's it in a nutshell. It's a cultural artifact for most people at this point. 83% of American people are not devout in any sense of the word, not believers that the "Bible is 1 hunert percent akkirrit" , or give a rat's ass what religious leaders have to say on any given subject. A minority of Americans fall into the traditional idea of devout or practicing.

If 83% of the American people all showed up at church one week, Okinawa would tip over.

Rockntractor
03-02-2012, 02:11 PM
That's a deceptive figure. My Jewish friends would identify as Jewish in a poll, and many of my Christian friends would identify as Christian in a poll- but these are ethnic terms, not religious ones. My Jewish friends go to services once or twice a year and have religious holidays with family at home. My Christian friends go to services once or twice a year and have religious holidays with family at home.

My brother in law calls himself a Christmas Christian. That's it in a nutshell. It's a cultural artifact for most people at this point. 83% of American people are not devout in any sense of the word, not believers that the "Bible is 1 hunert percent akkirrit" , or give a rat's ass what religious leaders have to say on any given subject. A minority of Americans fall into the traditional idea of devout or practicing.

If 83% of the American people all showed up at church one week, Okinawa would tip over.

Do you have any kind of study to prove your point?

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 02:33 PM
Do you have any kind of study to prove your point?

You mean other than the fact you can fire a shotgun in an Episcopal church most Sundays without hitting anyone? Or that it's fashionable amongst a certain demographic to identify as Quaker or Universalist? Or that none of my Catholic friends go to church except when required by season or out of courtesy to aging parents?

I doubt my experience is unique. But do the math on the 83%.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html

US population 310,000,000
number of congregations about 335,000

Average congregation ought to be about 935 persons.

According to the site - the actual congregation is about 75 persons.

Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend.

Rockntractor
03-02-2012, 02:37 PM
You mean other than the fact you can fire a shotgun in an Episcopal church most Sundays without hitting anyone? Or that it's fashionable amongst a certain demographic to identify as Quaker or Universalist? Or that none of my Catholic friends go to church except when required by season or out of courtesy to aging parents?

I doubt my experience is unique. But do the math on the 83%.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html

US population 310,000,000
number of congregations about 335,000

Average congregation ought to be about 935 persons.

According to the site - the actual congregation is about 75 persons.

Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend.
You don't have to attend organized services every week to be a Christian.

Zeus
03-02-2012, 02:38 PM
That's a deceptive figure. My Jewish friends would identify as Jewish in a poll, and many of my Christian friends would identify as Christian in a poll- but these are ethnic terms, not religious ones. My Jewish friends go to services once or twice a year and have religious holidays with family at home. My Christian friends go to services once or twice a year and have religious holidays with family at home.

My brother in law calls himself a Christmas Christian. That's it in a nutshell. It's a cultural artifact for most people at this point. 83% of American people are not devout in any sense of the word, not believers that the "Bible is 1 hunert percent akkirrit" , or give a rat's ass what religious leaders have to say on any given subject. A minority of Americans fall into the traditional idea of devout or practicing.

If 83% of the American people all showed up at church one week, Okinawa would tip over.


What is the religious makeup of the US? (http://sawaal.ibibo.com/puja-and-rituals/what-religious-makeup-us-759815.html)



Protestant 52, Roman Catholic 24, Jewish 1.World Almanac and Book of Facts 2007

Ok my figure was off by 5 pts . I used a 2001 figure. Whether or not they attend services regularly or not does not change that makeup or their beliefs. Sure Piety is severely lacking but even lack of Piety does not change that Demographic.

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 02:42 PM
Whether or not they attend services regularly or not does not change that makeup or their beliefs. Sure Piety is severely lacking but even lack of Piety does not change that Demographic.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

I'm saying it's an identity rather than a religion for most people, and I think there is correlation between the weekly observance and that supposition. Most people have an identity of themselves being "born into" their religious affiliation. Born a Catholic, Jewish by birth, from Baptist roots. While many if not most people think of being Jewish as an ethnicity, we rarely rear project that onto the mainstream and think of Catholics being an ethnicity, even if we think of it as being part and parcel to be Irish American, Italian American, Polish etc....

Rockntractor
03-02-2012, 02:45 PM
I'm saying it's an identity rather than a religion for most people, and I think there is correlation between the weekly observance and that supposition. Most people have an identity of themselves being "born into" their religious affiliation. Born a Catholic, Jewish by birth, from Baptist roots. While many if not most people think of being Jewish as an ethnicity, we rarely rear project that onto the mainstream and think of Catholics being an ethnicity, even if we think of it as being part and parcel to be Irish American, Italian American, Polish etc....

You don't know what is in the minds of people, you are just babbling again.

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 02:51 PM
You don't know what is in the minds of people, you are just babbling again.

So I'm guessing that you don't go to church?

Zeus
03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
I'm saying it's an identity rather than a religion for most people, and I think there is correlation between the weekly observance and that supposition. Most people have an identity of themselves being "born into" their religious affiliation. Born a Catholic, Jewish by birth, from Baptist roots. While many if not most people think of being Jewish as an ethnicity, we rarely rear project that onto the mainstream and think of Catholics being an ethnicity, even if we think of it as being part and parcel to be Irish American, Italian American, Polish etc....

Sementics and spilting hairs still doesn't change the demographic. All your twisting & mangling and stereotyping will not change that demographic.

Face it Nova you are in the wee minority. Both in spirituality and lifestyle choices. As long as you refuse to accept and respect the majority how do you ever expect to gain respect or acceptance.

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 03:07 PM
Sementics and spilting hairs still doesn't change the demographic. All your twisting & mangling and stereotyping will not change that demographic.

Face it Nova you are in the wee minority. Both in spirituality and lifestyle choices. As long as you refuse to accept and respect the majority how do you ever expect to gain respect or acceptance.

Respect for anything other than rights is not required. As to how, the Constitution is the how.

Zeus
03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
Respect for anything other than rights is not required. As to how, the Constitution is the how.

So your willing to hide behind something you aren't respectful of for other people afforded that same protection. Gotcha

no surprise you are a lefty.

Rockntractor
03-02-2012, 03:46 PM
So I'm guessing that you don't go to church?

Off and on.

Apache
03-02-2012, 04:36 PM
So I'm guessing that you don't go to church?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRj_8QX_MyZJNhQzMdEWq9_bogLSWQBr w2pgqW61AxHM0kJlIuN

Hawkgirl
03-02-2012, 06:06 PM
I'm saying it's an identity rather than a religion for most people, and I think there is correlation between the weekly observance and that supposition. Most people have an identity of themselves being "born into" their religious affiliation. Born a Catholic, Jewish by birth, from Baptist roots. While many if not most people think of being Jewish as an ethnicity, we rarely rear project that onto the mainstream and think of Catholics being an ethnicity, even if we think of it as being part and parcel to be Irish American, Italian American, Polish etc....


So, you are saying if a Christian doesn't attend Mass/Church services every single weekend, then he is not a Christian?:lol:

You don't know what's in the hearts and minds of people, so get off your high horse libtard.

Rockntractor
03-02-2012, 06:11 PM
So, you are saying if a Christian doesn't attend Mass/Church services every single weekend, then he is not a Christian?:lol:

You don't know what's in the hearts and minds of people, so get off your high horse libtard.

If all that was required was to enter a building and sit for a specified length of time he would be one. There are some churches that think that is enough, but for some reason I think even he knows that is not correct.

Apache
03-02-2012, 06:23 PM
If all that was required was to enter a building and sit for a specified length of time he would be one. There are some churches that think that is enough, but for some reason I think even he knows that is not correct.

he's gonna rage against the machine, cuz it be cool... someday he may mature









someday

Rockntractor
03-02-2012, 06:25 PM
he's gonna rage against the machine, cuz it be cool... someday he may mature









someday

A lot of people find religion when the doctor gives them an expiration date, I can only hope he does.

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 11:31 PM
So your willing to hide behind something you aren't respectful of for other people afforded that same protection. Gotcha

no surprise you are a lefty.

You're babbling

Novaheart
03-02-2012, 11:40 PM
So, you are saying if a Christian doesn't attend Mass/Church services every single weekend, then he is not a Christian?:lol:

Y

I didn't say that, I did imply that worship service attendance is an indicator of devoutness. All your excuses are your own, but can you name a sect which doesn't expect you to attend services?


............ so get off your high horse libtard.

Get out from under that horse, Catherine.

Zeus
03-02-2012, 11:52 PM
You're babbling

Why ? because your willing to hide behind the constitution yet not willing to afford others that same constitutional privilege. Or are you saying the 1st amendment is not relevant anymore ?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Notice nothing in there about only if you regularly attend X amount of services

Apache
03-03-2012, 12:24 AM
You're babbling

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRj_8QX_MyZJNhQzMdEWq9_bogLSWQBr w2pgqW61AxHM0kJlIuN

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 12:30 AM
If all that was required was to enter a building and sit for a specified length of time he would be one. There are some churches that think that is enough, but for some reason I think even he knows that is not correct.

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 12:32 AM
Why ? because your willing to hide behind the constitution yet not willing to afford others that same constitutional privilege. Or are you saying the 1st amendment is not relevant anymore ?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Notice nothing in there about only if you regularly attend X amount of services

I need you to be more specific in your allegation.

Zeus
03-03-2012, 12:37 AM
I need you to be more specific in your allegation.


Respect for anything other than rights is not required. As to how, the Constitution is the how.

..............

Apache
03-03-2012, 12:42 AM
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

those words mean nothing to you, so why do you regurgitate them as if they do?

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 12:50 AM
..............

Your right to free exercise of religion is the same as your right to swing your fist- it stops at the tip of my nose.

Zeus
03-03-2012, 12:58 AM
Your right to free exercise of religion is the same as your right to swing your fist- it stops at the tip of my nose.

you're babbling.

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 12:59 AM
those words mean nothing to you........



Sure they do. I have fond memories of childhood. Unlike this bunch of heathens here, I actually attended mass twice a week, one Catholic and one Episcopal.

Zeus
03-03-2012, 01:07 AM
Sure they do. I have fond memories of childhood. Unlike this bunch of heathens here, I actually attended mass twice a week, one Catholic and one Episcopal.

So by your own admission you don't abide by the same standard you expect of others.

Apache
03-03-2012, 01:49 AM
Your right to free exercise of religion is the same as your right to swing your fist- it stops at the tip of my nose.

you two-faced,hypocritcal ass-wipe!


you just wiped out all credibilty you ever had.... being a leftist turd, you didn't have much to begin with :biggrin-new:

Apache
03-03-2012, 01:53 AM
So by your own admission you don't abide by the same standard you expect of others.

that's right! give princess his, but don't expect anything in return....


damn zeus, back just a little while and you got him to fly onto his face. GOOD JOB!:won:

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 01:11 PM
So by your own admission you don't abide by the same standard you expect of others.

You're not making a point, but Apache seems to think you have so it's fun to watch him.

Apache
03-03-2012, 01:32 PM
You're not making a point, but Apache seems to think you have so it's fun to watch him.he made his point princess. your willingness to remain painfully obtuse doesn't negate the fact that you are a two-faced bitch...

not surprised that you cannot support your view on the constitution...

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 01:32 PM
A lot of people find religion when the doctor gives them an expiration date, I can only hope he does.

Some people outgrow the fear of monsters under the bed. When I die, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

Apache
03-03-2012, 01:37 PM
Some people outgrow the fear of monsters under the bed. When I die, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

as i said, those words have no meaning for you....

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 01:40 PM
So by your own admission you don't abide by the same standard you expect of others.

How does my having attended church services (and church school, and religious training, etc....) conflict with my position that these things have no place in the public school and are not covered under the "free exercise thereof"?

There is a reason that the First Amendment is written as it is- because the rights overlap. Freedom of religion is the right to identify yourself as a member of your sect, to build and support a church on your own time and your own dime, to attend that church on your own time and your own dime. Your religious expression in public is covered by freedom of speech, and is subject to the same rules as defined in case law. Thus, you may preach the gospel in the public square (or juggle while reciting Proust) , but you may not do this in certain other publicly owned settings which are reserved for specific use (like public classrooms and football fields). Teachers can be preachers on their own time, but not in the course of their official relationship with the public.

There is no hypocrisy here.

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 01:48 PM
as i said, those words have no meaning for you....

Sure they do- they mean that Christians are commanded to "this do in remembrance of me", ie attending services is part of being a Christian. Unless of course you are a Gnostic. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus specifically speaks out against building church buildings, creating a priest class, and other manifestations of existing religions. He also disabuses the listener of the idea of heaven and hell as the common man currently thinks of those metaphysical places, and gets rather Buddhist in his discussion of life and death. Jesus spoke against starting a new religion, the very notion of a Christian church is contrary to his commands, he wanted his followers to simply go out and live the Word and spread it by example (and not by bleating into amplified sound systems in Mega churches to dulled out glassy eyed subjects.)

Apache
03-03-2012, 01:57 PM
How does my having attended church services (and church school, and religious training, etc....) conflict with my position that these things have no place in the public school and are not covered under the "free exercise thereof"?

There is a reason that the First Amendment is written as it is- because the rights overlap. Freedom of religion is the right to identify yourself as a member of your sect, to build and support a church on your own time and your own dime, to attend that church on your own time and your own dime. Your religious expression in public is covered by freedom of speech, and is subject to the same rules as defined in case law. Thus, you may preach the gospel in the public square (or juggle while reciting Proust) , but you may not do this in certain other publicly owned settings which are reserved for specific use (like public classrooms and football fields). Teachers can be preachers on their own time, but not in the course of their official relationship with the public.

There is no hypocrisy here.

you're babbling... again

Apache
03-03-2012, 02:02 PM
Sure they do- they mean that Christians are commanded to "this do in remembrance of me", ie attending services is part of being a Christian. Unless of course you are a Gnostic. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus specifically speaks out against building church buildings, creating a priest class, and other manifestations of existing religions. He also disabuses the listener of the idea of heaven and hell as the common man currently thinks of those metaphysical places, and gets rather Buddhist in his discussion of life and death. Jesus spoke against starting a new religion, the very notion of a Christian church is contrary to his commands, he wanted his followers to simply go out and live the Word and spread it by example (and not by bleating into amplified sound systems in Mega churches to dulled out glassy eyed subjects.)

ah the gnostic bible, which has never been accepted by scholars unless they wanted to twist what the scriptures said...

Rockntractor
03-03-2012, 02:02 PM
you're babbling... again

128 syndrome

Zeus
03-03-2012, 02:10 PM
How does my having attended church services (and church school, and religious training, etc....) conflict with my position that these things have no place in the public school and are not covered under the "free exercise thereof"?

There is a reason that the First Amendment is written as it is- because the rights overlap. Freedom of religion is the right to identify yourself as a member of your sect, to build and support a church on your own time and your own dime, to attend that church on your own time and your own dime. Your religious expression in public is covered by freedom of speech, and is subject to the same rules as defined in case law. Thus, you may preach the gospel in the public square (or juggle while reciting Proust) , but you may not do this in certain other publicly owned settings which are reserved for specific use (like public classrooms and football fields). Teachers can be preachers on their own time, but not in the course of their official relationship with the public.

There is no hypocrisy here.

Well finally you express a cogent argument, rather than air splitting, semantics and totally foolish expressions like it all predicated by attending services X amt of times and making stereotypical & hypocritical judgements.

Nova I don't know what you are like in the real world. Based on your expression & covert at times & overt hostility lots of time, towards what most folks hold near and dear. I think what we both know is the single underlying issue to you is eating away at any soul you may possess. I do not say this to anger but perhaps you should take a step back and truly evaluate your life and the life around you. The Life you may want will only come about through the life of others. If you continue to berate & ridicule what others may hold in high regard the acceptance you seek will continue to evade you. Might want to pass that on to some of your friends.

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 02:15 PM
ah the gnostic bible, which has never been accepted by scholars unless they wanted to twist what the scriptures said...

Ah, the Gnostic Bible, which doesn't support the idea of a governmental, monarchial, and militaristic church so the Roman Church went their own way.

Better to make Mary Magdalene a whore than to accept that she was the favorite apostle.

Rockntractor
03-03-2012, 02:27 PM
Better to make Mary Magdalene a whore than to accept that she was the favorite apostle.

Are you discussing the subject or just trolling now?

Apache
03-03-2012, 02:48 PM
Ah, the Gnostic Bible, which doesn't support the idea of a governmental, monarchial, and militaristic church so the Roman Church went their own way.

Better to make Mary Magdalene a whore than to accept that she was the favorite apostle.

show me where the Bible (new testament) supports those....

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 03:08 PM
show me where the Bible (new testament) supports those....

It doesn't have to if it isn't forbidden. In the Gnostic Bible Jesus talks about a personal relationship with consciousness in a very Buddhist like way. Jesus' knowledge of Buddhism is another thread. But it's easy to see that he's talking about a philosophy of living, not preaching, but living and teaching by example. It's not nearly as exciting as "Let's go build churches, make deals with governments, form armies, and get everybody all signed up." which is of course what happened over the next ten centuries.

Apache
03-03-2012, 03:54 PM
It doesn't have to if it isn't forbidden. i don't have a NO PARKING sign in my livingroom, it doesn't mean parking is allowed there...

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 05:13 PM
i don't have a NO PARKING sign in my livingroom, it doesn't mean parking is allowed there...

You don't have a history of having people parking in your living room. Religion's history is the history of government. Religion adds power to the control of men by other men, that's its job. "Do as I say, or the monster will kill you like it did those people in the ruins of that city we found the other day." Make it even more meaningful by claiming that it was your cousins who God told to leave the city because only they were righteous, and God was going to destroy the bad people.

Apache
03-03-2012, 06:34 PM
You don't have a history of having people parking in your living room. Religion's history is the history of government. Religion adds power to the control of men by other men, that's its job. "Do as I say, or the monster will kill you like it did those people in the ruins of that city we found the other day." Make it even more meaningful by claiming that it was your cousins who God told to leave the city because only they were righteous, and God was going to destroy the bad people.

there are none so blind as those who will not see...

your lifestyle and views cannot be embraced by christianity therefore christianity is bad... its your soul you gamble with.you know it, yet you refuse to deal with it.

Novaheart
03-03-2012, 11:38 PM
there are none so blind as those who will not see...

your lifestyle and views cannot be embraced by christianity therefore christianity is bad... its your soul you gamble with.you know it, yet you refuse to deal with it.

You appear to have a very low opinion of God; you appear think he's no more intelligent or sophisticated than many humans.

Zeus
03-04-2012, 12:05 AM
You appear to have a very low opinion of God; you appear think he's no more intelligent or sophisticated than many humans.


You ain't God. Not in a thousand imaginings.

Lanie
03-04-2012, 12:30 AM
Outside of the Bible Belt and certain Midwestern enclaves you can not truth say that God has not been kicked out of Public schools , public squares and various other parts of the american society. Sure in the places you might see it openly practiced Christianity is also put in amongst a plethora of various other incantation so it is no longer a religious observance but more of a carnival atmosphere.

Approx 83 % of the USA population is Christian or Jewish yet they are dictated to by the approx 5% of non christian or Atheist population of how ,when & where christians/Jews can observe/practice their religion rather contrary to the 1st amendment. I thought it was the 1st amend for a very particular reason, I guess I was taught wrong

What you may not know is that atheists are not the only people who fought who have organized prayer taken out of schools. One of the plantiffs in one case was a Jew. There have been other cases of theists being the plantiffs. The argument is that while they believe in God, they may not believe the same way the others praying do.

Let's suppose you lived in an area that was mostly Muslim and they say that every day at noon, your kids need to pray facing a certain direction and pray their way. Would you be comfortable with that? No, you wouldn't be.

Some schools have misinterpreted how far the rules are supposed to go. One has a right to take them to court, and they'll probably win because the truth is that the schools have no legal right to stop your child from bowing their heads before eating, praying before a test, or having their own bible study groups on their own time. They can't stop it. It's still their right.

I don't think we need an organized prayer for God to be in the schools. He's there.

Zeus
03-04-2012, 12:34 AM
What you may not know is that atheists are not the only people who fought who have organized prayer taken out of schools. One of the plantiffs in one case was a Jew. There have been other cases of theists being the plantiffs. The argument is that while they believe in God, they may not believe the same way the others praying do.

Let's suppose you lived in an area that was mostly Muslim and they say that every day at noon, your kids need to pray facing a certain direction and pray their way. Would you be comfortable with that? No, you wouldn't be.

Some schools have misinterpreted how far the rules are supposed to go. One has a right to take them to court, and they'll probably win because the truth is that the schools have no legal right to stop your child from bowing their heads before eating, praying before a test, or having their own bible study groups on their own time. They can't stop it. It's still their right.

I don't think we need an organized prayer for God to be in the schools. He's there.

No one is saying you must pray but many are saying "Let us pray"

Why do lefties insist upon attempting to advance strawman arguments all the time.

Lanie
03-04-2012, 02:14 AM
No one is saying you must pray but many are saying "Let us pray"

Why do lefties insist upon attempting to advance strawman arguments all the time.

It's not a Strawman Zeus. It's a fact.

Let's suppose I lead a class in prayer by saying "Let us pray." Okay. How do I do this? If I pray in a Christian Catholic way, you might have other theists and even other Christians uncomfortable with the way I'm praying on behalf of the classroom.

If I come up with some generic prayer where I don't end it with "In Jesus name I pray" or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," then one could argue that I'm not really making real prayers. It's just a generic, one size fits all prayer to some people.

Next, people who do feel uncomfortable and either speak out about it or simply refuse to pray have been known to become the target of bullies (Bullies for Christ? Really?). Do you think God wants that?

There's no need to have this organized prayer. I'm sorry, but that's what it is most of the time.

Zeus
03-04-2012, 02:49 AM
It's not a Strawman Zeus. It's a fact.

Let's suppose I lead a class in prayer by saying "Let us pray." Okay. How do I do this? If I pray in a Christian Catholic way, you might have other theists and even other Christians uncomfortable with the way I'm praying on behalf of the classroom.

If I come up with some generic prayer where I don't end it with "In Jesus name I pray" or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," then one could argue that I'm not really making real prayers. It's just a generic, one size fits all prayer to some people.

Next, people who do feel uncomfortable and either speak out about it or simply refuse to pray have been known to become the target of bullies (Bullies for Christ? Really?). Do you think God wants that?

There's no need to have this organized prayer. I'm sorry, but that's what it is most of the time.
Another Stawman. No one is advocating or even asking for Organized prayer. How is Let us pray anything like you must pray. All strawman injection & protesting things not happening aside God is being pushed out of Society all because it might upset someone. Free expression of religion is just one of the many things in American society where the majority are being dictated to my the minority. the 1st & 2nd , 4th & 5th admendment to the US constitution are under constant attack, the 10th in practice doesn't even exist anymore. The country is being ripped apart all in the name of political correctness and some false sense of right to physical & mental depravity.

Apache
03-04-2012, 01:12 PM
You appear to have a very low opinion of God; you appear think he's no more intelligent or sophisticated than many humans.

:blah::blah::blah:

ABC
03-04-2012, 02:16 PM
All strawman injection & protesting things not happening aside God is being pushed out of Society all because it might upset someone. Free expression of religion is just one of the many things in American society where the majority are being dictated to my the minority. the 1st & 2nd , 4th & 5th admendment to the US constitution are under constant attack, the 10th in practice doesn't even exist anymore. The country is being ripped apart all in the name of political correctness and some false sense of right to physical & mental depravity.

My sentiments, exactly. Good man, Zeus! :love_heart: :love_heart: :love_heart:

~ ABC

Novaheart
03-04-2012, 02:21 PM
Another Stawman. No one is advocating or even asking for Organized prayer. How is Let us pray anything like you must pray. All strawman injection & protesting things not happening aside God is being pushed out of Society all because it might upset someone. Free expression of religion is just one of the many things in American society where the majority are being dictated to my the minority. the 1st & 2nd , 4th & 5th admendment to the US constitution are under constant attack, the 10th in practice doesn't even exist anymore. The country is being ripped apart all in the name of political correctness and some false sense of right to physical & mental depravity.

The Abrahamic religions have had a nice long run. A graceful exit is called for.

Wei Wu Wei
03-04-2012, 02:54 PM
Another Stawman. No one is advocating or even asking for Organized prayer. How is Let us pray anything like you must pray. All strawman injection & protesting things not happening aside God is being pushed out of Society all because it might upset someone. Free expression of religion is just one of the many things in American society where the majority are being dictated to my the minority. the 1st & 2nd , 4th & 5th admendment to the US constitution are under constant attack, the 10th in practice doesn't even exist anymore. The country is being ripped apart all in the name of political correctness and some false sense of right to physical & mental depravity.


1. No one is saying you are not allowed to pray on your own. If you are not asking for organized prayer, what is your problem?

2. As for the general sentiment that God is being pushed out of society, I agree with you there. The old religious values of humility, self-limitation, moderation, sacrifice, devotion, and contemplation have been replaced. Today we live in a post-modern society of late capitalism, and in that society those values are no longer useful. A godless society is preferable to the interests of Capital, and thus it will be what we have until it is no longer preferable. If you want proof of this, turn on your television during Prime Time and tune into PBS and see what is showing, then turn to Fox, ABC, NBC, Comedy Central, FX, etc. etc. etc. Observe where "hedonist politically correct liberal post-modernism" really comes from.

Wei Wu Wei
03-04-2012, 02:56 PM
The Abrahamic religions have had a nice long run. A graceful exit is called for.

Christianity is worth saving and should not be left to the fundamentalists. There is a radical core of truth that cannot be covered up.

Rockntractor
03-04-2012, 02:57 PM
1. No one is saying you are not allowed to pray on your own. If you are not asking for organized prayer, what is your problem?

2. As for the general sentiment that God is being pushed out of society, I agree with you there. The old religious values of humility, self-limitation, moderation, sacrifice, devotion, and contemplation have been replaced. Today we live in a post-modern society of late capitalism, and in that society those values are no longer useful. A godless society is preferable to the interests of Capital, and thus it will be what we have until it is no longer preferable. If you want proof of this, turn on your television during Prime Time and tune into PBS and see what is showing, then turn to Fox, ABC, NBC, Comedy Central, FX, etc. etc. etc. Observe where "hedonist politically correct liberal post-modernism" really comes from.

Maybe you could make a nice little story about it, you have to out do Ape though!http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/applause/smileys-applause-119762.gif (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/)

Apache
03-04-2012, 03:07 PM
The Abrahamic religions have had a nice long run. A graceful exit is called for.

why? because they look down on your lifestyle choices princess?

Zeus
03-04-2012, 04:49 PM
The Abrahamic religions have had a nice long run. A graceful exit is called for.

Again the minority attempting to dictate to the majority.

Zeus
03-04-2012, 04:54 PM
1. No one is saying you are not allowed to pray on your own. If you are not asking for organized prayer, what is your problem?

2. As for the general sentiment that God is being pushed out of society, I agree with you there. The old religious values of humility, self-limitation, moderation, sacrifice, devotion, and contemplation have been replaced. Today we live in a post-modern society of late capitalism, and in that society those values are no longer useful. A godless society is preferable to the interests of Capital, and thus it will be what we have until it is no longer preferable. If you want proof of this, turn on your television during Prime Time and tune into PBS and see what is showing, then turn to Fox, ABC, NBC, Comedy Central, FX, etc. etc. etc. Observe where "hedonist politically correct liberal post-modernism" really comes from.

I seriously doubt Capitslism is the cause of God being tossed out of society. It's deviant behavior that deep down must recognize it as such and don't like to be reminded of it.

Odysseus
03-04-2012, 08:11 PM
1. No one is saying you are not allowed to pray on your own. If you are not asking for organized prayer, what is your problem?

2. As for the general sentiment that God is being pushed out of society, I agree with you there. The old religious values of humility, self-limitation, moderation, sacrifice, devotion, and contemplation have been replaced. Today we live in a post-modern society of late capitalism, and in that society those values are no longer useful. A godless society is preferable to the interests of Capital, and thus it will be what we have until it is no longer preferable. If you want proof of this, turn on your television during Prime Time and tune into PBS and see what is showing, then turn to Fox, ABC, NBC, Comedy Central, FX, etc. etc. etc. Observe where "hedonist politically correct liberal post-modernism" really comes from.

Blaming our current problems on capitalism might make sense if the European social welfare states weren't much further along that road than we are, and the former communist states even further than the Europeans.

Novaheart
03-05-2012, 01:46 AM
Again the minority attempting to dictate to the majority.

You mean like when Christianity was made the state religion of Rome?

ABC
03-05-2012, 02:16 AM
><((('>

ABC
03-05-2012, 01:08 PM
Sorry ... just had to use a bit of whimsy in last message in order to get to post number 667!

I feel better now, please carry on! :smile_new:

~ ABC

Apache
03-05-2012, 01:22 PM
You mean like when Christianity was made the state religion of Rome?

history; fucked up by novaheart...how to deflect and look FABulous!

too bad the facts don't match your wishes, huh princess?

Apache
03-05-2012, 01:23 PM
><((('>

heh! :biggrin-new:

ABC
03-05-2012, 01:50 PM
I love that fish symbol. Haven't used it in years!

Forgot how it was done ... had to practice to get it right.

Worked anyway. Got me past that beastly number, thank goodness! :lemo:

~ ABC