PDA

View Full Version : Trayvon Martin: Debunking thread



Elspeth
03-21-2012, 04:54 PM
In the midst of the current firestorm about Trayvon Martin, it is easily to lose sight of what is fact and what is not. This thread is dedicated to debunking the impressions, half-truths and all out lies being perpetrated by the political left about the Martin case.

For those who don't know (or who are living under a rock):


Trayvon Martin is a 17-year old African American male who was shot dead by a neighborhood watch commander, George Zimmerman, 28 in Sanford, Florida, February 26, 2012, during half-time of the NBA All Star Game. (The televised game began at 7:30 pm EST. However the youth was dead by 7:17. (See next post). Trayvon was walking back to a home he was visiting in the "Retreat at Twin Lakes" gated community, after having bought Skittles and Arizona iced tea at a local 7-11.

George Zimmerman spotted Trayvon in Twin Lakes while out in his SUV on an errand and called the non-emergency police dispatch reporting Trayvon, whom he did not recognize, as a suspicious person. During that call, Zimmerman decided to pursue Trayvon on foot.

Zimmerman was carrying a 9-mm handgun and had a legal concealed weapons permit. An altercation ensued. It is unclear who started the physical altercation, but it ended with Trayvon being shot dead by George Zimmerman. Zimmerman had a bloody nose, a bleeding wound on the back of his head, and grass stains on his back.

Zimmerman was not charged by the Sanford Police because Florida has a "Stand Your Ground" law which allows those who feel in reasonable fear for their lives from an attacker to shoot that person.



These are the bare bones. The case has now become a cause célèbre for the political left and the Civil Rights community, with the Reverend Al Sharpton taking the lead. Much has been made of the racial angle of the case, the "corrupt" Sanford PD, and the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law. There has also been a lot of misinformation. In the next post, I will discuss what we actually know.

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 05:53 PM
Below is the list of actual facts that we know about the case. (In later posts, we will debunk some of the lies and misrepresentations.) See sources for these facts at the end of this list



The FACTS we know about the Trayvon Martin Case

1. Trayvon was 17 years old. He was 6'3'' and his weight is listed in the mid 140s. His nickname was "Slimm."

2. Trayvon was a high school junior, an A/B student, and a cheerful person. He liked flying and wanted to be an aircraft mechanic.
There are now reports that Trayvon's grades were average, although he took some advanced classes.

3. Trayvon had no criminal record. He had been suspended from his high school the week before his death for excessive absenteeism. His high school was Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in Miami.
Tracy Martin now says his son was expelled for 10 days and for "being in an unauthorized area". (wiki)

4. On February 26, 2012, Travyon and his father were visiting the home of the father's girlfriend in the gated community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes. Twin Lakes is an ethnically diverse community "half white, a quarter black, and a quarter Hispanic." (See video here (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter) for NBC news quote on diversity figures.)

5. Twin Lakes had experienced 8 burglaries in 15 months. Most of these burglaries were done by young black males.

6. Trayvon left his father's girlfriend's home at Twin Lakes during halftime of the NBA All Star game, sometime around 7 pm EST. (Trayvon was dead by 7:17 when the police arrived). He walked to the 7-11 nearest to Twin Lakes.

#6 is a problem, timewise. The NBA All Star Game did not start until 7:30 on TNT. (http://www.tvtango.com/listings/2012/02/26) The Pregame show was at 7. Sanford, Florida is Eastern Standard Time. George Zimmerman telephoned the police at approximately 7pm. This meant that Trayvon had left the house he was visiting by at least 6:45, before the Pregame show, and probably earlier.

Edited: March 24: We do not know when Trayvon left Twin Lakes and neither does his father. The NBA story was a lie. The real story:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/trayvon_martin_parents_recall_the_A0KRK2O5pd7swIKs q03ypN#ixzz1q50bfsQN


....17-year-old Trayvon had been spending time with his 20-year-old cousin which is why his father, Tracy Martin, tells People he wasn't worried when Trayvon wasn't at home that night....

..."I had gone out for dinner," Tracy says. "And when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

It wasn't until the next morning, when Tracy's nephew said he hadn't seen Trayvon, that Tracy became worried. He called the Sheriff's department, told them Trayvon was missing and that it was unusual for him not to return home....


7. There was some rain that evening and it was dark by 7pm. Sunset was at 6:21 pm EST that night.

8. Trayvon was wearing a grey hoodie.

10. Travyon was spotted in Twin Lakes walking in the rain and dark just before 7pm by George Zimmerman.

11. George Zimmerman called the non-emergency police dispatch number for Sanford at 7pm. (This info can be found in the "Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report". Twin Lakes PD. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf.

12. Trayvon was shot in the chest. New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/us/police-chief-draws-fire-in-trayvon-martin-shooting.html)



Sources:

http://www.blackenterprise.com/2012/03/19/trayvon-martin-family-seeks-justice/
http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/246108/250/Teens-death-renews-debate-over-Stand-Your-Ground-law-
articles.orlandosentinel.com/ 2012-03-17/ news/ os-trayvon-martin-shooting-tension-20120317_1_shooting-death-english- teacher-uncle
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/?mobile=nc
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/sns-rt-usa-floridashooting-update-3-20120320_1_police-dispatcher-grand-jury-unarmed-black-teenager
http://www.calendar-365.com/calendar/2012/February.html

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 08:41 PM
The FACTS we know about the Trayvon Martin Case (Continued)

12. George Zimmerman (the shooter) was 28, and about 220 pounds. (Trayvon's family attorney, Jasmine Reed, described Zimmerman as "80 pounds heavier" than Trayvon on MSNBC's The Last Word, March 20th.) He is 5'9'' according to the police report.

13. Zimmerman works as a ""forensic loan review analyst" — basically an underwriter...at the Maitland office of Digital Risk, LLC, a mortgage risk-management firm. (Orlando Sentinel, 3/23/12) Co-workers like him, describing him as outgoing and friendly man.


14. Zimmerman is mixed race, a "Spanish-speaking minority" with "black relatives." According to the Tampa Bay Times: (http://www.tampabay.com/news/definitions-of-race-cloud-case-of-black-teens-shooting/1221036)


George Zimmerman has a white father and a Hispanic mother. He calls himself Hispanic on his driver's license. He calls himself Hispanic on his voter registration card.

15. George Zimmerman is the son of the Zimmermans, Robert and Gladys (who is Peruvian.) Robert was in the military and later a judge. Gladys was a court interpreter (Washington Post). The Zimmermans lived in Manassas, VA until 2002, when the family moved to Florida upon the retirement of the parents.


16. The family was known to be very religious (Catholic).


George Zimmerman, the Florida neighborhood watch captain accused in the fatal of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, graduated from Osbourn High School in 2001.

He was an alter [sic] server for six years at All Saints Church and he joined the Future Business leaders of America club in high school.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/03/trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-has-ties-to-manassas-74026.html

“Very Catholic . . . very religious,” their neighbor Jim Rudzenski recalled Thursday. The children attended All Saints Catholic School on Stonewall Road through the eighth grade before going to Osbourn High School. George became an altar server and evening receptionist at All Saints Catholic Church. The Zimmermans “were known and respected in the community for their dedication and service,” said Robert Cilinski, pastor of All Saints Catholic Church. (Washington post, 3/22/12)


17. According to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/who-is-george-zimmerman-more-information-emerges-about-the-shooter-of-trayvon-martin/2012/03/21/gIQA6muiRS_blog.html), Zimmerman was actually born in Virginia and graduated high school in Manassas, VA, but, according to the Orlando Sentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition), the Zimmerman family moved to Florida about a decade ago, when George was 18. George's name was listed along with his parents on the deed to their house.

18. According to the Sentinel, the neighbors in Manassas did not know the Zimmermans very well. Neighbors mostly kept to themselves.

18.1. At the age of 17, George was the victim of a criminal assault. No details were given. (Washington Post, 3/22/12)

19. In Florida, George attended Seminole State College and took classes in Criminal Justice. He wanted to be a police officer.

20. When George was 21 (2005), he was arrested but charges were dropped:


Zimmerman — 21 at the time — was at a bar near the University of Central Florida when a friend was arrested by state alcohol agents on suspicion of serving underage drinkers, according to an arrest report. Zimmerman was talking with his friend, became profane and pushed an agent who tried to escort him away, the report said. Authorities said he was arrested after a short struggle.

Charged with resisting arrest without violence, he avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program, something common for first-time offenders.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition


21. In the same year, George had domestic violence related issues--both he and his girlfriend filed against each other:


A month later, court records show, a woman filed a petition for an injunction against Zimmerman, citing domestic violence. It's unclear what led to the petition, but Zimmerman responded by filing a petition of his own the following day.

Records show injunctions were later issued in both cases. Reached by email, the woman would not comment on her past with Zimmerman or his current situation.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition


22. In 2007, George married Shellie Nicole Dean, a licensed cosmetologist. They are still married.

23. In 2008, George had some minor credit card debit with Capital One (a little over $1000). He ended up having his wages garnished to pay off some $2,135.82 (debt plus interest & legal help). At the time, George was employed with Car Max.

24. People who knew George as a friend (like 55-year-old Frank Taaffe) describe him as "a congenial, amiable, admirable person". (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter) Taffe further describes George as "no Rambo" who was passionate about protecting the neighborhood.

25. Taffe agrees with Robert Zimmerman that George was "no racist".

26. In 2011, George Zimmerman was appointed Neighborhood Watch captain (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter) after there had been a number of burglaries in the Twin Lakes community. George is living in this community with his wife. In this Neighborhood Watch position, George called 911 about 46 times in 14 months, on average about 3 calls per month.

27. On the night of February 26, at 7pm, George is running an errand in his SUV. It is dark and raining. George called the non-emergency police number and reported "a real suspicious guy." George mentioned the behaviors of walking in the rain and looking around as suspicious. George says later in the call that the guy was "looking at all the houses."

28. George does not initially identify race. The dispatcher asks for race, and George says "He looks black". George is only able to identify race for certain when the guy turns toward him:


...Now he's just staring at me

(conversation with the dispatcher about George's location)

...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

The dispatcher on this call is chiefly concerned with location, asking many questions about where George is and how to get there throughout the call. Zimmerman, on the other hand, seems focused on actions of the guy he is watching.

29. George Zimmerman gives full information about himself, including name, address and phone number.

30. George says, "These assholes, they always get away."

31. George also indicates to the dispatcher that he is following the guy, and the dispatcher responds "We don't need you to do that."

32. The call ends with the dispatcher agreeing to have the cops meet George "at the mailboxes".

33. In recent weeks, another version of this tape has emerged with an expletive in it. This tape and its expletive will be handled in the debunking section. What can be said here is that even the Martin family's attorneys have backed off from that version of the tape and its expletive.

34. George clearly tailed Trayvon for 25 seconds during the call to 911, but it is not certain what happened after the call or who started the physical altercation. Zimmerman claims to have gone back to his SUV (probable) and that Trayvon actually confronted him at the vehicle. A confrontation at the vehicle is supported by witness Mary Cutcher who describes two points of confrontation: the street/pavement and the grass behind her house. An eye witness puts Zimmerman in the grass under Trayvon who is punching him.(Fox 32 News) Zimmerman sustained a broken nose and a black eye, several scratches.(Today Show, March 25)


From the 911 calls, we have the following information:


Zimmerman and Martin got into a wrestling match on the ground. Different witnesses have reported either Trayvon or Zimmerman as being on to. A 13-year old witness has described both males as lying on the ground.

There is a male screaming on some 911 tapes. No definite identification of the voice has been made. Zimmerman told the police that he was the one who screamed for help. Trayvon's father initially said it was not his son. Later, Trayvon's mother says it was her son.

One gunshot can be heard on the tape. The screaming stops after the shot.







http://www.sun-sentinel.com/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,5792590,full.story
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/19/the-zimmerman-tapes-911-recordings-released-from-shooting-of-teen-in-florida-by-watchman/

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/who-is-george-zimmerman/2012/03/22/gIQAkXdbUS_story.html

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-23/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-job-20120323_1_robert-zimmerman-source-new-details

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 08:42 PM
35. From the Sanford Police report we have the following:

Dispatch had sent two officers to the scene based on Zimmerman's phone call. Both Off. Timothy Smith and Off. Ricardo Ayala had been sent to check out "a suspicious person."

The two officers were in radio contact. Off. Timothy Smith had arrived first. When he arrived at Twin Lakes, Smith was told by dispatch of reports of shots fired (the other 911 calls). Ayala heard these reports en route.

Smith approached the addresses he was given and found Zimmerman (whom he identifies as a "white male") in a red jacket and blue jeans, and Trayvon ("black male") in "a gray hooded sweatshirt" (Officer Ayala will later call this a sweater) face down in the grass.

Zimmerman tells Smith that he has shot Trayvon and that he is still armed. He complies will all of Smith's requests. Smith removes the gun from Zimmerman's waistband.

Smith notes about Zimmerman: "his back appeared to be wet and covered in grass as if he had been laying [sic] on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head."

Officer Ayala comes on the scene and deals with Trayvon's body, while Smith watches.

Ayala notes that Trayvon Martin is lying face down on the ground, his hands underneath his body and is dressed in a "gray sweater", blue jeans, and sneakers.

Ayala cannot "get a response" from Trayvon.

Another officer, Sgt. Raimondo arrives at the scene and is unable to get a pulse from Trayvon. Ayala and Raimondo turn Trayvon over and administer CPR.

Another Officer, Sgt. McCoy arrives at the scene and takes over for Ayala.

Sanford Fire Department paramedic pronounces Trayvon dead at 19:30 (7:30 pm).

Sanford Fire Department arrives and takes Zimmerman back to Smith's police car for "first aid". Smith overhears Zimmerman say to the Fire dept. "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

Smith does not question Zimmerman, but takes him back to the police station for questioning. Zimmerman is questioned by another investigator.




36. From another article, we have this:

Zimmerman told police that Martin attacked him from behind as he was walking back towards his truck, and it was fear for his life that prompted him to fire his Kel Tec 9mm handgun.http://thedailywh.at/tag/george-zimmerman/

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 09:17 PM
BEGIN THE DEBUNKING

1. But, but, but...you forgot all the other witnesses that have appeared on TV, on youtube, on tape! What about all them????

Most of these witnesses have not given their statements to the police. Whether this is the fault of the Sanford PD or not is not clear, but until there are clear statements to the police--under the penalty of making false reports--we cannot take these new and exciting witness statements as fact. Not even Mary Cutcher.

Sanford police has put out a call in recent days for witnesses to come forward. We will see what comes of it.

2. But Trayvon's girlfriend says that she was on the phone with him and that Zimmerman pushed him.

Trayvon's girlfriend was not interviewed by the police, only by the family attorneys.
Trayvon's girlfriend assumes Zimmerman's instigation of the physical conflict. She was not an eyewitness, and is basing her assumption on suddenly being out of contact with Trayvon.


3. But George Zimmerman is a RACIST! He picked out Trayvon because he was black.

The people who know Zimmerman describe him as not racist. However, there is no way for us to tell the inner feelings of the man.

Trayvon Martin, sadly, matched the profile (young black male) of the previous burglars at Twin Lakes. Had the previous burglars been Hispanic or Armenian or white, Zimmerman might not have given Trayvon a second look. It's hard to call this some kind of deep, personal racism. It's profiling, of course, but not necessarily racism.

And no, not all profiling is racist. If a rapist is 6'2'', has red hair, and a tattoo, then guess what type of man going to get a second look if he seems to be looking into the windows of women's homes? Is that fair to the innocent? No. But there has to be a way to find criminals.

4. The police and the media are saying that Zimmerman is white so he must be white!

Uh, no. We have already seen that Zimmerman is his adoptive name and that the man himself is multi-racial. He self-identifies as Hispanic in every way. (see the third post above)

The police are often unclear about race; I knew a girl from Lebanon who got stopped by a cop for speeding; the cop started talking to her in Spanish! I am not sure about all the various designations in Florida, but it's easy to make a mistake.

And as for the media, they are either just lazy or (in some cases) they may have an agenda.

5. But Trayvon was just a boy! A little boy!

I know that Mary Cutcher described Trayvon as "a little boy" but that's really misleading. Trayvon was 17 and 6'3". He's taller already than most men. He is not little in any way. Skinny yes, but skinny doesn't in any way equal helpless, especially in a male that age.

Significantly, the pictures that have been released of Trayvon are from when he was younger, when he really was a "little boy". A current picture, with him standing full height (maybe next to his mom) has not been released. This is highly misleading. It leads people to believe that the heartless and heavy Zimmerman identified a "mere child" as a potential burglar and killed him. What Zimmerman did see was a 6'3" man.

By the way, how tall is George Zimmerman? I can't find that information anywhere, although the fact that he is "80 pounds heavier" than Trayvon abounds. How tall is Zimmerman? (I'll bet it's under 6'3").

6. You are such a RACIST for pointing this out! You just want Zimmerman to go free!!!

What other reason could I have from wanting to see through this flood of emotion?

Think about it.

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 09:45 PM
7. But Zimmerman IS a racist!!! He said "f--ing c--ns!" in his call to the cops!!!!

Ah, my children. Here we go:

You all mean this clip, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNI5CA5jijw&feature=player




Well, guess what?


That copy of the tape (with Zimmerman allegedly saying "f--ing c--ns") is actually doubted by the Martin family's own attorneys.


On "The Last Word" (MSNBC) March 20th, Lawrence O'Donnell did an entire segment on the tape in the middle of the show. He was on fire, damning Zimmerman with the help of Martin family attorney, Jasmine Reed. O'Donnell tried to get Congresswoman Corinne Brown on board, but the Congresswoman said that she did not hear the expletive, that she only heard the dispatcher tell Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon.

Then, suddenly, in the last segment of the same show, Reed does an about-face, after getting off the phone with her law firm:




Jasmine Reed: "And, I actually got a call from my office while we were on break. And, um, there's something in the story we need to correct.

My office has been analyzing the tapes, even as I have been on air. And I know that the version we heard tonight, it appears that the words "f--ing"--the terms "f--ing coons" were used.

But the official version that we have from the police department, uh, you don't hear those expletives.

Um, so where the version stating "f--ing coons" comes from, we don't know. So at this time, until we can verify that is an original copy from the Sanford Police Department, the family cannot stand by those terms because we don't know where that version came from."

http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/

March 20, 2012
Last Segment: Perceived Racial Overtones in Trayvon Martin Case.


So, kids, if Trayvon's own attorneys can't trust that tape, why should you?

(And if Congresswoman Brown refused to play along, maybe she knows something we don't.)

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 10:04 PM
8. But, but, Zimmerman is CRAZY! He called 911 46 times in 14 months!! And all about black suspects!

Uh, no. He's not crazy.

He volunteered for his HOA's neighborhood watch and took the job seriously.

46 calls in 14 months averages to a little over 3 calls per month. 3 calls in 30 days for someone who is looking for suspicious behavior? That's not bad.

In my old neighborhood, we had some loud partiers. Many of my neighbors called 911 EVERY WEEKEND, Fridays and Saturdays. That would be 8-10 calls a month per person. And that was just for loud noise.

It sounds like Zimmerman was actually quite reasonable.

Now in terms of his calling about black suspects:

1. The Sanford PD had only released 6 of the 46 911 tapes yesterday. 4 of these were about young black males, but there is no way to extrapolate from this small sample the other 40 calls.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-report

2. George Zimmerman was concerned about the rash of burglaries at Twin Lakes. The suspects of these previous 8 burglaries were "young black males." Zimmerman's 911 calls make perfect sense in this context. Was it fair to the innocent? Of course not. It never is. (And I've covered the unfairness of profiling elsewhere.)

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 10:19 PM
9. But, but, Zimmerman wasn't a real Neighborhood Watch guy. He was self-appointed!!11!!

You're mixing up two things here.

1. Zimmerman was not affiliated with the national Neighborhood watch and had not been for their training.

2. Zimmerman was not self-appointed. He volunteered and his Homeowner's Association appointed him.


When the homeowners association wanted to start a neighborhood watch, only one man stepped up: George Zimmerman...

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said.

Read more here: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/03/19/2444192/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy

What these two statements indicate to me is that the Twin Lakes HOA asked for a neighborhood watch person and allowed Zimmerman to do the job with their blessing. However, the HOA never bothered to check into what neighborhood watch really was and what kind of training was required. Otherwise, they would have sent Zimmerman for training.

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 11:30 PM
10. But, but, the police didn't contact Trayvon's dad for THREE days with the news that they had Trayvon's body.

Ah, another timeline problem. I've been wondering myself where the 3-day figure came from. According to Trayvon's dad on Al Sharpton's Politics Nation (MSNBC) today (March 21), here is the story of finding out about Trayvon from the police.


Rev. Al: Why did it take the police so long to contact you? Do you know?

Mr. Martin: Uh, actually, I contacted the police, myself.

Rev. Al: So they never made the contact.

Mr. Martin: I did the initial contact. I called the, uh,--Trayvon was missing, I called Missing Persons, filed a Missing Persons report. Um, at that time they sent officers out. They dispatched--they told me they were going to dispatch a couple of--dispatch a unit to the residence. They called back about ten minutes later and asked me what he had been last seen wearing. And I gave a description of him.

Um, I told them what he had on.

Rev. Al: Now how long had he been missing when this was going on?

Mr. Martin: Uh, since he had left the--since he left the house, which had been over 12 hours, 12 or 13 hours.

Rev. Al: OK, and then what happened?

Mr. Martin: Uh, three units pulled up. There was a marked car, an unmarked car, and a service aid car, which the service aid car, was a chaplain in it. Um, I didn't know it because he just had on a regular uniform.

Uh, the first officer that approached, I identified myself, told him I was filing a Missing Person's report. The second officer approached. Um, he introduced himself as a major crimes investigator. At that time it didn't register to me. He asked me to describe my son. I described him to him. He told me give him a second. He walked to his vehicle, got a folder, came back, asked can we go in the house. We went in the house, uh, he asked me to sit down. I sat down. He pulled out a picture of my son on the ground dead. Asked me was that my son. I confirmed that it was....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755884/#46814638

So, boys and girls, it looks like it wasn't three long days until Mr. Martin found out about Trayvon. In terms of missing persons, it looks pretty routine. Trayvon leaves the house before 7pm (when Zimmerman saw him). Let's figure he left sometime between 6:30 and 6:45 pm. The 17-year-old doesn't return that night. Mr. Martin calls the police early the next morning (7 am or thereabouts, according to his own timeline.) The police arrive immediately and, after double-checking, confirm that Trayvon is dead.

12-13 hours people.

Not 3 days.

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 11:42 PM
11. But the police didn't even go through and check Trayvon's phone and find his father's number!!!

Another interesting point, cleared up by the Martin family attorney, Mr. Crump, on Al Sharpton's politics nation:


Rev. Al: Now Attorney Crump, why couldn't--if Trayvon had a cell phone--why couldn't they have looked at the cell phone and traced the numbers and called somebody?

Mr. Crump: Well, it's one of the things you would have asked yourself. The police have subpoena power--they could have subpoenaed those records and stuff to find out who he was. But even more relevant that that, Reverend Al, is that they could have knocked on the doors around that apartment complex....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755884/#46814638



So the answer, supplied very hurriedly by Mr. Crump, is that the police could not search Trayvon's cell phone without a subpoena. In other words, to look at the records that night, the police would have to have found a judge to give them permission. And in a small suburb in Central Florida on a Sunday night after 8pm, they probably wouldn't have found one.

My guess is that the cops would have gotten that subpoena the next day if Trayvon's dad had not called at the start of business Monday morning.

And look how quickly Mr. Crump moves on to another topic.

Elspeth
03-21-2012, 11:50 PM
12. But what about asking all those neighbors at Twin Lakes if they knew Trayvon!!

Where do you suggest they start?

Twin Lakes is a large complex and searching every house from 7:30 onward (during the NBA All Star Game, which began on TNT at 7:30) would not necessarily have yielded any results.

The police had no idea where Trayvon was from and Trayvon carried no legal ID--he was not driving yet according to news reports. They had no idea where to start. None of the witnesses came forward and identified him--they didn't know who he was either. Trayvon was not from Twin Lakes. Neither was his father. It was his father's girlfriend who lived there.

So, the short answer is, needle meet haystack. Much more efficient to wait for Monday and subpoena the cell phone records.

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 12:00 AM
13. Well, you racist, on Politics Nation, Trayvon's mother says that the voice crying for help on that 911 tape is absolutely her son!!

Yes she does. But notice that the Reverend Al does not ask the father. Wonder why? Remember, the father did not recognize the voice as his son's at first.

For the record, I would like that audio tested by professionals. Let George Zimmerman make another screaming recording and test the voice prints. See if there's some MP3 with Trayvon's voice on it. Test it. I'd like to see this question answered.


And one snarky note: I have to say that, on Politics Nation, Trayvon's mother looks like she has been coached and is trying to find the words she was coached to say. Just a personal impression.

Oh and THANK GOD that Reverend Al has finally learned how to pronounce "Skittles"! (I will miss "Skillits", though.)

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 12:23 AM
14. You're just beating a dead horse because you are a racist! Even Brian Williams on NBC agrees with the Reverend Al on Politics Nation that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood!!!

Neither Brian Williams nor the Reverend Al has a clue as to what really happened. No one does. (Yeah, yeah, the girlfriend called, but she couldn't tell where Trayvon was, where he was walking, or what he was doing.)

There are a great many possibilities from an accidental shooting (with Zimmerman taking the gun out as a threat, not intending to really use it), to self defense (with Zimmerman thinking Trayvon really WAS going to kill him), to cold blooded murder (Zimmerman decided that Trayvon must die and intentionally pulled the trigger).

The fight could have gone down in any number of ways. According to NBC news this evening, Zimmerman told the police that he had returned to his car to wait for them and had decided not to pursue Trayvon. (I know, I know, he's a racist liar murder scumbag Republican). But let's say Zimmerman had returned to his truck to meet up with the officer he knew was coming. That would have meant that Trayvon, who was walking toward him during Zimmerman's initial call to the police, might have approached him again and taken a swing. Remember, Zimmerman was bleeding from his head and from his nose. (I know, that racist, bastard, Republican, piece of shit freeper bloodied his own nose and banged his own head against cement to make it bleed. :friendly_wink:)

So, to end our discussion, boys and girls, remember that we DON'T KNOW what really happened, and neither do Brian Williams or the Reverend "Skillits" Al. No one can say "in cold blood."

No one.

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 02:18 AM
#15. (From our friend at another board. :friendly_wink:) For those "Justifying" Zimmerman's actions: When in this country does it become a OKAY for one person-regardless of sex, color, age etc-to be killed simply because he walked down a FUCKIN public street?!


Trayvon was minding his own business. He was walking to a home HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO GO TO! He didn't say one word to Zimmerman UNTIL ZIMMERMAN started following him! He didn't know who Zimmerman was all he knew was that Zimmerman was FOLLOWING HIM! For all we know Trayvon might have been frighten this man was going to attack him or kidnap him or anything like that!


Facts are Zimmerman followed Trayvon NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.


Wow, exciting with lots of CAPS! And Exclamation Points!!! (I bet you thought I was making that up. )

Let's unpack this: George Zimmerman did not just shoot Trayvon because he was "walking down a FUCKIN public street ?!" If this had been the case, there is no way that even Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law would have applied.

Also remember that Zimmerman had injuries. I know you all like to forget that, but Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and head. He also had grass stains on the back of his jacket, indicating that he had hit the ground at some point during the scuffle. Neighbors saw the two men scuffling, not one. All of this means that Trayvon got some hits in.

Now, do we know who threw the first punch? Not yet. Do we know who yelled first? Well, if we believe the girlfriend, it was Trayvon. Was Trayvon justified in confronting Zimmerman and demanding to know why he was being followed? Sure. Was it the wisest move he could have made? Probably not.

What should Trayvon have done?

I'll grant you that he was scared. He didn't know who Zimmerman was and being followed by some guy you don't know is just creepy. No question.

But I've learned from years of living in LA that you NEVER confront someone you don't know. In LA, it could be someone with a weapon.


Now I'm a girl, and I'm not confronting a male physically. Not happening. So what would I have done?

Here are two options:

1. I might knock on a close by door and get some help from people in that house. So, there would be a witness. So injury would be less likely.

"Hi, my name is Trayvon. I'm staying with my dad's girlfriend at XXXX. There's this guy in a van trailing me and I want to call the police."

That should have done the trick.

Now, you might say, "Those racist neighbors wouldn't have let him in!" Except we know that Twin Lakes was 50% Black and Hispanic. Trayvon had a good chance of finding a non-white at home. And considering the white people from Twin Lakes who have come out of the woodwork lately (Mary Cutcher...Mary Cutcher!), there were a lot of non-racist whites as well. And Trayvon had a baby face. That's what Mr. Crump the lawyer says, anyway. Someone would have helped.

Well, you say, what if no one was home, huh? How about that you racist!

I say "Highly unlikely" since the NBA All Star Game was starting at 7:30 on TNT and the pregame show was already on (started at 7). A lot of guys were around those TeeVees and a lot of women were sighing, bored. However, just in case Trayvon went to the house where no one was home, there is a second option:

2. Call the police on your cell phone.

That's right. Hang up on the girlfriend. You've been talking to her all goddamned day and she's no help. CALL 911 Right Fucking NOW!

Got it?

Can you imagine the police dispatch getting reports of a guy in a van stalking you, while the guy in the van is calling the police telling them that you're just standing there on your phone? (Yeah, it's lame, but funny.)

Seriously, use the phone God gave you and call the police.

So we have two decent, if girly, options.

What else have I done as a girl? Well, I have run away. I have found a place to hide. I have also screamed my guts out. That usually sends most non-criminal types running for the hills.

But under no circumstances would I physically confront anyone.

I do believe that Trayvon would be alive today if he had not physically tangled with Zimmerman.

OK, Zimmerman was the pursuer.
OK, Zimmerman was at fault for not just staying in the van.
OK, Zimmerman was a complete asswipe for carrying a gun on neighborhood watch.
OK, Zimmerman was angry at all the robberies and was convinced Trayvon was a suspect because black teens in hoodies had been robbing Twin Lakes for a year.

OK.

George Zimmerman was wrong.

And Trayvon was innocent.


But if any strange man is following me, is it better for me if I go confront him, or is it better if I find protection or call the police?

See the strange man might be totally in the WRONG, and I may be totally innocent, but I have a responsibility to myself NOT to do anything stupid. That is, if I want to live.

So, I'm running, knocking on doors, getting witnesses and calling the police.

But, but, (you say) Trayvon had a right to stand his ground!

Uh huh. So would I, in Florida. And if I'm not armed, I'm finding a safe place to retreat. Just because the law allows it doesn't mean it's the best idea.

And yeah, you can tell George Zimmerman that, too.

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 02:33 AM
16. Oooo...A challenge!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002453206

Star Member MrMickeysMom (8,665 posts) ]
5. Give me 5 minutes with the next fuck who tries to say that...


Witless shits have no fucking clue what they are talking about.

Now you know MrMickeysMom wants to say "racist", but she's trying to look PC.

So, if she really means it, she can have 5 minutes. Explain why this thread is totally wrong. Explain why Zimmerman deserves no presumption of innocence. Explain why Trayvon's actions should not be examined. Explain why the misinformation that has been filling the airwaves is ok.

Go on.

You got your five minutes.

:lemo:

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 02:47 AM
17. But, but, but, Zimmerman said "These assholes always get away." That means he is a RACIST!?!

Zimmerman did indeed say "These assholes always get away" during his phone call to the non-emergency police dispatch number. Did he really mean "Those n---rs always get away!" or "Those c--ns always get away!"?

Or did he simply mean, "These asshole burglars always get away."

Yeah, burglars.

Twin Lakes had been robbed 8 times, and none of the burglars had been caught.

Ever have that experience? Ever have crimes committed--even petty ones--and know that the perpetrators never get caught? Doesn't that frustrate you?

Well, you say, Zimmerman was really referring to all Blacks because he was a RACIST!??!

There's no evidence as to that. In fact, everyone who actually knew him says that he is NOT a racist. What there is evidence for is Zimmerman's frustration with the burglaries. And yes, he had profiled Trayvon, and as it turned out wrongly. But his frustration was with the burglaries and the inability of the police to stop them.

But, you say, I would NEVER say anything like that. I would never get frustrated and blurt out "assholes" like that. And I would never profile!!!

OK. Let's say there's an item in the news. The Catholic Church is currently lobbying for laws to make it harder for molestation victims to go after their abusers/rapists. That's right. Google it.

Now think of all those priests who abused children and got away with it. Think about all those kids with a lifetime of hurt and shame and unbelievable pain. Think of the Church moving priests from one place to another but never allowing priests to be prosecuted civilly.

Doesn't that frustrate you?

Especially when it happens over and over?

Have you called the priests or the Church "assholes" or worse?

Have you ever pulled your kid away from a priest, just in case? In a pew? On a subway? In a market?

Think about it.

Adam Wood
03-22-2012, 12:50 PM
EXCELLENT debunking, Elspeth! Very well-done. So few people who are howling about this are actually dealing with facts instead of their emotions on this that it's just absurd noise out there for the most part.


I have a couple of small ... refinements, let's call them ... on this.





3. Trayvon had no criminal record. Technically, neither does Zimmerman. The battery charge was apparently a very minor incident in which a friend of his was being arrested and he apparently made some sort of question to the arresting officer and made physical contact, but apparently didn't throw a punch or anything like that. It was reduced to charge that left him with a clean record (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/v-fullstory/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html), so obviously it was a very minor incident, probably just a misunderstanding.


He had been suspended from his high school the week before his death for excessive absenteeism. His high school was Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in Miami.I mentioned this in the other thread, but it bears repeating: there are multiple inconsistencies in the reporting (what tiny little bit there is) of Martin's suspension (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/al-sharpton-dismisses-self-defense-argument-in-shooting-of-teen/). A teacher claims that he received a five-day suspension. That, however, does not coincide with the Dade County Schools handbook (http://ehandbooks.dadeschools.net/policies/90/csc_sec.pdf) (.pdf warning), which does not afford suspensions for tardiness (indeed, it doesn't mention penalties for tardiness at all), nor does it coincide with the individual school's own tardiness policy (http://74.53.27.98/~mkhscom/Information%20Files/Student%20and%20Parent%20Handbook%2011-12.pdf) (.pdf warning; see page 36-37). The scale says that the tenth incidence of tardiness shall result in an out-of-school suspension of three days, and the eleventh incidence will result in an out-of-school suspension of ten days. There is no provision for a five-day suspension, nor is there some combination that would result in such. So whoever is claiming that this is a five-day suspension is wrong. This clearly has to be a ten-day suspension, since Martin had already been in Sanford for a week when the shooting occurred. So, that begs the question: has Martin been tardy to school eleven times already this year (begging the question about how much of a good student he is, as is claimed), or did he commit some offense under the Dade County handbook that required a ten-day suspension (pretty much all of which are serious, and mostly violent, incidents)?

Also, both handbooks clearly point out in numerous places that a student on suspension has the right to continue their coursework (presumably homework, tests, etc.), but they will not receive class participation credit (obviously some part of one's overall grade). So this "A-B student," a senior in high school, doesn't continue his coursework while on suspension (obviously he can't when he's 200 miles away from home for no readily apparent reason), jeopardizing his graduation? For whom does that make any sense? Certainly not me.

And, just what is the reason he was in Sanford at all? OK, he was suspended from school, for whatever reason. Why was he sent to Sanford to eat candy and watch basketball? I got suspended for three days in high school, and I didn't leave my room for anything other than meals or the bathroom. No telephone, no computer, no anything other than stare at the walls or work on school work. I sure as shit wasn't sent 200 miles away. So what on earth caused this mother to ship young Trayvon off to some place half a state away?

Something reeks in Denmark.



Finally, W/R/T the girlfriend's phone call: this should be regarded with extreme suspicion. This girl was allegedly talking to Martin literally the instant before he died, even so much as hearing a fight between Martin and another man, with Martin on the phone telling her how scared he was. What does she do with this information? Does she call the police in Sanford right away? No. After she finds out that Martin is dead and she was talking to him last, does she call the police to tell them about this vital conversation? No. Does she tell anyone about this vital, allegedly damning information in those critical first hours after Martin dies? No. She waits almost a month (more than enough time to simply concoct a conversation that she thinks will implicate someone) and then she sells her story to the highest bidder for the exclusive, ABC news, and she still does not contact the police with this vital, damning information that would put Zimmerman away.

This is simply not very credible information at this point.

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 07:21 PM
Adam,

Thanks for adding what you know!

I am being very careful about the suspension until we know more specifics. I have a friend who is a high school teacher, and from what she has told me a week-long suspension is rare for tardiness, which is usually handled by detention, parental meetings, and possibly meetings with the counselor or the Dean. A suspension, if given, is usually a 1-day in-school suspension.

For a week-long suspension, the student would have to have been tardy enough to miss one or two morning classes, consistently, and efforts at remediation with parents, counselors, the dean, etc. would have to have completely failed. It can happen, but it's rare.

We really don't know why Trayvon was suspended. We have been told alternately "tardiness", "absenteeism" (and these two can be the same thing if you're late enough to miss classes), and "administrative issues" (i.e. non-violent offenses). Until we get more specifics, I am holding off on making a judgment either way.


PS: You think you can send this link to a friendly party? Is there some host that might be interested?

Taylor2012
03-22-2012, 07:41 PM
Let me add two points.

One, Zimmerman had a concealed carry license and was legally allowed to take his gun along with him on his patrol.

Two, the first photo I saw of Trayvon showed a smiling, baby faced ""innocent"". In the second photo I saw he looked like an angry older individual, and nowhere near an innocent one. So yes, there is a LOT more to this incident that has yet to come out.

For all we know, Trayvon could have already been involved in nefarious dealings ....and may indeed have been casing the area. That would be the logical assumption to be made by Zimmerman when the kid didn't appear to be going straight home from the store....but looking and lurking about.

Time will tell. Thanks for this informative thread, by the way.



[QUOTE=Elspeth;492197]#15. (From our friend at another board. :friendly_wink:) [b] For those "Justifying" Zimmerman's actions: When in this country does it become a OKAY for one person-regardless of sex, color, age etc-to be killed simply because he walked down a FUCKIN public street?!

QUOTE]

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 09:24 PM
# 18. But, but, but George Zimmerman was the pursuer!!! Trayvon was never a threat to him, you racist slime!!11!!



Hold on there, cowboy.

We are only sure of one thing: that Zimmerman followed Trayvon on foot for a minute or so when he was on the phone with the non-emergency police dispatch. Zimmerman later told police that he had stopped following Trayvon and had come back to his car after that. He says that Trayvon approached him at his SUV.

I know I'm a horrible racist for pointing that out.:smile-new:


Besides, you racist Republican bitch !!!, Trayvon NEVER approached Zimmerman. NEVER!!1111

Uh, yeah, he did. During the tape.

Let's look at the tape, since the only time we can really account for in regard to pursuit and approach is during Zimmerman's phone call to police dispatch.

Here's what we know from the tape.

For the purposes of this argument, I am using the following version on youtube. Make sure to delete the extra spaces when you cut and paste:

http://w ww.yo utube.c om/watch?v=YrkLJifqmVE

ALL TIMES ARE APPROXIMATE


1. We know that Trayvon approached Zimmerman at least once during Zimmerman's call to the police, about 58 seconds into the call. That is how Zimmerman verified that the young man was indeed black--he saw him full face as Trayvon was walking toward him with "something in his hand."

("Now he's coming towards me" 58 secs into the tape)

("And he's a black male" 1.08 into the tape)
Before then, if you recall, Zimmerman was far enough away that he couldn't be sure of Trayvon's race.

("He's comin' to check me out. He's got somethin' in his hands." 1.24 into the tape)

Zimmerman sounds concerned here. Trayvon's approach may have upped the ante for Zimmerman.


2. A little over a minute into his approach, Trayvon changes his mind and starts running away.

("Shit! He's running. 2.06 into the tape)

We don't know why Trayvon changes his mind or if he got close enough to hear the conversation. We know from Zimmerman that he was headed toward "the back entrance" of the neighborhood.



3. It's after Trayvon starts running, that George Zimmerman gets out of the SUV to pursue Trayvon on foot.

(Car door opening "ding". 2.10 on the tape; Car door closing, 2:14 on tape)

It is here that George Zimmerman's pursuit begins.



4. But Zimmerman's no runner.

You can hear Zimmerman getting winded immediately after he starts.

(Heavy breathing begins: 2.20)

The breathing is heavy enough to tip off the police dispatch operator that Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon.

("Are you following him?" 2.23)

It is after this that the dispatch operator tells him "We don't need you to do this." (2.26)


According to the news reports, Zimmerman was 220-240 pounds and he was not as tall as Trayvon (who was 6'3'') or we would have heard about it. The Martin family lawyers have been consistent in showing Zimmerman as having a physical advantage, and had Zimmerman been 6'4'', we'd have heard about it.

Actually, from the windedness on the tape and the stockiness of the photo we have seen, my guess is that Zimmerman was no taller than 5'11' and probably less.


5. Zimmerman's windedness continues until Trayvon is out of sight.


(Windedness: 2.20-2.45 on the tape)

In fact, George seems to barely be able to get out his name:

("Sir, what is your name" 2.36)
("George" 2.37)

Then Trayvon is gone:

("He ran" 2.39)


6. Breathing pattern on the tape indicates that Zimmerman has stopped his pursuit

Zimmerman is still in motion after Trayvon runs, but his breathing is less heavy and he is able to talk to the dispatch operator more easily, meaning he is moving more slowly. This argues strongly against Zimmerman's continued pursuit of Trayvon on foot. There is no way a guy who gets winded so easily can keep up with a 6'3'' very skinny teen of 140 lbs.

So where was Zimmerman going? Maybe back to his SUV, like he told the police later.

At 2.22 on the tape, Zimmerman agrees to meet the police officer at a given location:

("Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?" 2.55)
("Yeah" 2.57)

By the time the police officer asks if George wants to meet the police officer "at the mailboxes" (3.43 on the tape) George's breath has greatly slowed down. He cannot be pursuing anyone on foot at this time.


7. Zimmerman indicates that he might change location.

After agreeing to meet at the mailboxes, Zimmerman changes his mind:

"Could you have him call me and I'll tell him where I'm at?" (3.48)

This sounds like Zimmerman might want to look for Trayvon, and the only way he could do that was in his SUV. He doesn't have the physical stamina to search on foot.

However, we don't know exactly what Zimmerman did after that. A lot depends on the addresses mentioned in the call and the address of Mary Cutcher who claims that Trayvon was shot in her backyard. (There's a challenge, boys and girls!)



So what have we learned?

1. Trayvon did approach George Zimmerman and this had an effect Zimmerman. It seems to have scared him and made him angry.

2. After Trayvon ran, Zimmerman got out of his car and tried to pursue on foot, but got immediately winded. No doubt, this pursuit plus the initial SUV trailing him scared Trayvon and made him angry.

3. George Zimmerman is not in the best shape physically. He is probably overweight for his height and gets winded easily.

So you have two males under 30 who are both scared of and angry at each other. I imagine that both thought that the other was a danger to his life.

But, but, why didn't that racist piece of crap Zimmerman stop pursuing Trayvon??? Why didn't he listen to the 911 operator????? Why did that cracker go after him in a SUV????!!!!!!

Well, boys and girls, the non-emergency dispatch operator told him to stop pursuing Trayvon when George was running after him on foot. It's possible that Zimmerman didn't think that direction applied to keeping track of the teen with his SUV.

And Zimmerman is not a cracker, he's Hispanic.

Maybe that makes him a tortilla?

:lemo:

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 09:43 PM
Let me add two points.

One, Zimmerman had a concealed carry license and was legally allowed to take his gun along with him on his patrol.


Absolutely. I put in the first post that Zimmerman had a legal concealed carry permit.



Two, the first photo I saw of Trayvon showed a smiling, baby faced ""innocent"". In the second photo I saw he looked like an angry older individual, and nowhere near an innocent one. So yes, there is a LOT more to this incident that has yet to come out.


This is part of the agitprop. The pictures you are seeing over and over on TV are of a younger Trayvon. In most of them he is shorter than his mother, and not his full height of 6'3''. Those pictures must be quite old.

If you look carefully at the football photo (full shot) which was taken when he was 14 according to the Montreal Gazette (www.montrealgazette.com/ news/ Public+outcry+grows+after+Trayvon+Martin+shooting/ 6343563/ story.html -) you can begin to see how tall Trayvon really was, even at that time. He is now 3 years older and 6'3''. And, as you said, as he got older, that "baby face" Mr. Crump (the attorney) mentions all the time had begun to disappear.

The pictures, of course, are to make Zimmerman's statement that he was "afraid for his life" look absurd. This would undercut the legality of his action and make him vulnerable to prosecution. The Martin family must be fought for this reason alone.



For all we know, Trayvon could have already been involved in nefarious dealings ....and may indeed have been casing the area. That would be the logical assumption to be made by Zimmerman when the kid didn't appear to be going straight home from the store....but looking and lurking about.

Or he simply could have been lost. All the houses in that subdivision look exactly alike. I could see myself getting lost in there.

Of course, considering his father's lack of worry (Tracy Martin didn't contact the police until the next morning) Trayvon may simply have been hanging out outside and maybe his parents were accustomed to him being out at night with no set time for return.

If I were George Zimmerman. though, whose neighborhood had been robbed so many times, I would definitely think that Trayvon could be casing the neighborhood.



Time will tell. Thanks for this informative thread, by the way.

You're welcome. I wish we could get this to someone out there. The radio hosts are repeating the same crap as the mainstream media and no one is asking the hard questions.

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 10:25 PM
#19. But it was a COVER UP!!!! The racist bastard asshole Sanford Police racist crackers PROTECTED George Zimmerman!!!!

Protected how?

By not giving that murdering cracker a drug and alcohol test!!!! Remember that guy on ABC said Zimmerman sounded DRUNK!!!111

OK, kiddies.

First of all, within minutes of the police arrival, Zimmerman is handed over to a paramedic who works for Sanford Fire Department. Check the police report. The paramedic dealt with his wounds and administered first aid. Now we do not have the paramedic's report and we do not know if the paramedics did any kind of assessment, and that would be interesting to know. (Homework kiddies!)

Second, the police had gotten up close and personal with Zimmerman from the minute they found him over the dead body. Certainly if they had smelled alcohol on his breath or recognized any symptoms of drunkenness, they would have administered such a test. The cop certainly had a breathalyzer in the car. What that tells me is that they saw no need to examine Zimmerman. Nor (as far as we know) did the paramedic.

Third, the so-called expert on ABC news made his judgments based on "slurred speech." But there's a hitch with that. Even if the sound quality on the 911 recording is good enough to pick that up, pronunciation issues (which is what "slurred" refers to) can easily be the result of language transfer. In other words, boys and girls, George Zimmerman grew up Spanish-speaking. While English and Spanish share a similar alphabet, the same sounds can be quite different in each language. Obstruent consonants (p, t, k, b, d, g) are not aspirated the way they are in English. That means these Spanish consonants SOUND SOFTER, even "slurred" when applied to English. In addition, r's and l's (big slurring candidates) are very different in Spanish and take place at different points of articulation. Also, syllable structure is very different.

So, before we jump to conclusions, we need to put on our "multicultural" hats and understand that differences in pronunciation may come from George's native language. I think a trained phonologist should examine the tape before a monolingual cop is brought in.


Finally, there is nothing in the law that says you can't defend yourself if you've had a beer or two. Drunk would be a different story, of course, and if Zimmerman did not appear visibly drunk to anyone at the scene.


But, but, they've been interpreting witnesses STATEMENTS!!! They've been rewriting testimony!!!!!!!1111

The one person who gave a specific example of "tampering" was Mary Cutcher. And all she said is that she told the police that Trayvon was screaming, and the police told her that it was Zimmerman who screamed.

Now, first, I'd like to see her actual statement to the police. Did they write down her contention that Trayvon was screaming? Or did they write down that she heard Zimmerman scream? If the latter is the case, then that would definitely be a point in your favor.

But, so far, we don't have the written witness statement of Mary Cutcher. We just have her word. And considering that she calls the 6'3'' Trayvon "a little boy" I'm not so sure I trust her observations or her interpretations of reality. Show me that the police changed her written statement and we'll talk. Otherwise, it's just a "he said/she said."

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 10:37 PM
20. The right wing and the NRA are throwing George Zimmerman overboard to protect Stand Your Ground laws!!!!

Actually, I agree with this one. And it's a foolish thing for them to do in the long run. However, in the short run, they are doing damage control: the law is far more important than the individual, sadly.

The truth is that if Zimmerman felt in fear for his life (and there's good reason to think he did) he had the right to shoot according to the law in Florida.


That right does not go away if you happen to be Neighborhood Watch.

That right does not go away if you witness someone with bad behavior and try to lead the cops to them.

That right does not go away if you are at first the pursuer but that situation changes and you become the pursued. The law recognizes that a situation can change.



The gun rights public relations machine (unlike the rank and file gun owners) has to protect its image in the press against a media onslaught of agitprop, unrestrained pathos, and misrepresentation. When the opponents of your law accuse you of responsibility for the "murder" of a "little boy" (who is 6'3'') who was a model student (even though he was suspended for a week) and whose parents are raising him right (even though they didn't bother to look for him or call the police until the next morning), then you've got to do something to counter that accusation.

Elspeth
03-22-2012, 11:00 PM
Speaking of Trayvon photos, this one is said (by a DUmmie) to be more recent:

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/C54R_TrayvonMartin1.jpg

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002455579

Not sure how old he is here or who is next to him. He does look more like a man than a boy here. That may be why the current pics are rare right now.

If anyone finds one that is truly 17, please post it.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:24 AM
And speaking of photos...


Who's this good looking young Latin man?

http://images.wjla.com/communities/georgezimmerman_296.jpg


George Zimmerman...He is shown here in his high school photo. (Photo: Associated Press)

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/03/trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-has-ties-to-manassas-74026.html


So here is George, around the same age as Trayvon (above).

No wonder they're messing with the photos. I'll bet Mr. Zimmerman still looks great in a tux at 28.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:37 AM
#21. (More debunking so soon?) Is it true that Trayvon's body was in the morgue for 3 days??!!!

This one comes courtesy of a DUmmy who doesn't even watch Weird Al Sharpton, like I do. :friendly_wink:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002458488#post25

I could refer you to the right place on the thread, but I'll be nice.

Al Sharpton's Politics Nation (MSNBC) March 21

Here is the story of finding out about Trayvon from the police.



Rev. Al: Why did it take the police so long to contact you? Do you know?

Mr. Martin: Uh, actually, I contacted the police, myself.

Rev. Al: So they never made the contact.

Mr. Martin: I did the initial contact. I called the, uh,--Trayvon was missing, I called Missing Persons, filed a Missing Persons report. Um, at that time they sent officers out. They dispatched--they told me they were going to dispatch a couple of--dispatch a unit to the residence. They called back about ten minutes later and asked me what he had been last seen wearing. And I gave a description of him.

Um, I told them what he had on.

Rev. Al: Now how long had he been missing when this was going on?

Mr. Martin: Uh, since he had left the--since he left the house, which had been over 12 hours, 12 or 13 hours.

Rev. Al: OK, and then what happened?

Mr. Martin: Uh, three units pulled up. There was a marked car, an unmarked car, and a service aid car, which the service aid car, was a chaplain in it. Um, I didn't know it because he just had on a regular uniform.

Uh, the first officer that approached, I identified myself, told him I was filing a Missing Person's report. The second officer approached. Um, he introduced himself as a major crimes investigator. At that time it didn't register to me. He asked me to describe my son. I described him to him. He told me give him a second. He walked to his vehicle, got a folder, came back, asked can we go in the house. We went in the house, uh, he asked me to sit down. I sat down. He pulled out a picture of my son on the ground dead. Asked me was that my son. I confirmed that it was....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755884/#46814638


And even more The Right Reverend Weird Al Sharpton:


Rev. Al: Now Attorney Crump, why couldn't--if Trayvon had a cell phone--why couldn't they have looked at the cell phone and traced the numbers and called somebody?

Mr. Crump: Well, it's one of the things you would have asked yourself. The police have subpoena power--they could have subpoenaed those records and stuff to find out who he was....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755884/#46814638

So boys and girls, what have we learned?

1. Trayvon was only "in the morgue" for 12 hours or less.

2. The police could not search his phone without a subpoena (and try finding a judge on a Sunday night in a small town.) Most likely they would have had the subpoena the next day.

3. Trayvon's father waited 12-13 hours after Trayvon left the house before contacting the police. Trayvon had been missing roughly 11-12 hours by then.



So you see, law enforcement did its job. Did Trayvon's dad do his? If he wanted to see his son before 12 hours after his death, he could have contacted the police at, say, 9 or 10 or 11 on Sunday night when his kid didn't come home.

What's with that, anyway?

I remember "disappearing" one night before sunset. I had a fight with my folks and went to a friend's house a mile and a half away. Finally, around 10 pm, I felt sorry for my folks and called them, only to find the police at the house. See, I had been missing for 5 hours and I was a teenager.

So why didn't Trayvon's father call the police at say, 11 pm, when his kid was missing for at least 4 or 5 hours?

Hmm......

Oh, and by the way, notice how nice the cops were, with their three cars and their chaplain and all. Sounds like police brutality to me. :biggrin-new:

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 01:12 AM
#21. Why can't you just let us grieve??!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002459258

Who's preventing you, sport?



http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002459258

All this concern trolling, pointing out how Zimmerman is entitled to a fair trial, how we should not convict him before all the evidence is in, how he won't get justice because we are all upset and venting.

"Concern trolling"? You're being asked to remember that Zimmerman is a person with rights and that is "concern trolling"?

Yeah, kiddo, I worry that George Zimmerman won't get justice because you are all venting--DU, the media, the country. It's not the fact that you are wailing in sorrow. It's that you are venting with hate, violence, anger, character assassination, and a white hot rage. Right now, I wouldn't trust you to give justice to anyone. You're out of control.

The agitprop that has taken over the country in the past few days is astounding. Even Fox News is joining you. Fox! There's a coup--you're all joined in hatred. You don't think Fox hates Zimmerman for existing and for messing up the perception of the Second Amendment?

So yeah, I am worried because you are out of control.



Tell you what - when people start talking about grabbing a pitchfork and a torch and going to hunt down Zimmerman, then your concern trolling will be justified.

Have you read yourselves? Have you read every anti-White screed you have written this week? (Even though Zimmerman is Hispanic?) You do understand that at least one hate group has said they will kill Zimmerman. And how soon is it before all the hoodie-wearing people at marches go from "no justice, no peace" to "kill Zimmerman"?

Trust me, with the level of emotion you are carrying, the level of rage and hate you are carrying, it won't be long before someone loses it. All that emotion squeezes out somewhere.

Be very careful with your grief. And I never thought I'd ever say this, but listen to Nadin on this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002458890

She's trying to keep you sane.

NJCardFan
03-23-2012, 11:54 AM
I worry that George Zimmerman won't get justice because you are all venting--DU, the media, the country.
You can throw Obama in there now:


"My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon." http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-had-son-d-look-trayvon-144936867.html

NJCardFan
03-23-2012, 12:06 PM
And speaking of photos...


Who's this good looking young Latin man?

http://images.wjla.com/communities/georgezimmerman_296.jpg


George Zimmerman...He is shown here in his high school photo. (Photo: Associated Press)

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/03/trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-has-ties-to-manassas-74026.html


So here is George, around the same age as Trayvon (above).

No wonder they're messing with the photos. I'll bet Mr. Zimmerman still looks great in a tux at 28.

But he is half white and that's the half they're going after. See, if you're mixed, the half of you that is attacked is very subjective.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:06 PM
You can throw Obama in there now:

Like I said, it's an election year.

Remember, African American activists have not been too happy with Obama. Cornell West has been very critical of him. There is a general feeling that Obama has not done much for the black community. Trayvon Martin's case gives Obama the chance to be the big hero to the African American voters. (You just know that evil Republicans would never have investigaged the case.) The message is, "Only the Democrats can save you!"

Add that to the new voter ID laws, which will cut down on repeat voting, and voting by felons and illegal immigrants, and you have a pressing need to get every eligible black voter to the polls. Getting every eligible voter of any group to the polls is next to impossible unless you have something pushing them. In 2008, it was the prospect of the first black President. For this election, they needed a big, emotional push and Trayvon Martin's case is it.

Watch for this case to be flogged like a dead horse all year and watch for the SuperPacs to push youthful images of Trayvon (not his 17-year-old photos) in commercials on BET.

And watch for Zimmerman to be destroyed for the sake of an Obama victory in November.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:07 PM
But he is half white and that's the half they're going after. See, if you're mixed, the half of you that is attacked is very subjective.

So is Obama, but he is considered black. The same rules should apply here, especially considering that the young man himself identifies as Hispanic on all his documents.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:08 PM
So that we don't forget:


http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/C54R_TrayvonMartin1.jpg


http://images.wjla.com/communities/georgezimmerman_296.jpg

Taylor2012
03-23-2012, 12:24 PM
The "kid" was snooping around the clubhouse. I can now understand why Zimmerman found his actions suspicious. Because they WERE.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:28 PM
The "kid" was snooping around the clubhouse. I can now understand why Zimmerman found his actions suspicious. Because they WERE.

Whatever he was doing, Trayvon was not in a hurry to get home for the NBA All Star Game, which started at 7:30. The pregame was at 7.

Taylor2012
03-23-2012, 12:28 PM
Typical manipulation of the masses by the lamestream press......since they keep showing Trayvon only as a young, sweetly smiling 'child'. The truth is....he grew into a 6'3" man...and was not so 'sweet' any more.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't already have a police record.

At the best he wasn't too awfully bright, perhaps with a chip on his shoulder. At the worst, he could have been 'on something' and looking to break in and steal something.

I just hope all of this media hype and the usual suspect black activists don't keep the truth from coming out. It's happened before.



So that we don't forget:


http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/C54R_TrayvonMartin1.jpg


http://images.wjla.com/communities/georgezimmerman_296.jpg

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:32 PM
Interesting article on Zimmerman and race; George is Peruvian. Also points out that Zimmerman was a victim of an assault as a teen. Maybe that's why he wanted to be a cop.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017819414_zimmerman23.html


Florida shooter George Zimmerman not easily pigeonholed

A closer look at George Zimmerman, son of a Peruvian mother and a white father who is at the center of the nation's latest controversy over race.

By Manuel Roig-Franzia, Tom Jackman and Darryl Fears

The Washington Post

ROBERTO GONZALEZ / AP

Thousands attend a Thursday rally in Sanford, Fla., for Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen shot by George Zimmerman, who was on a neighborhood-watch patrol in the gated community of Retreat at Twin Lakes.

The shooter was once a Catholic altar boy, with a surname that could have been Jewish.

His father is white, neighbors say. His mother is Latina. And his family is eager to point out that some of his relatives are black.

There may be no box to check for George Zimmerman, 28, no tidy way to categorize, define and sort the man whose pull of a trigger on a Sanford, Fla., street is forcing America to once again confront its fraught relationship with race and identity. The slain victim, we know, was named Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager in a hoodie.

The images of Zimmerman — not just his face, but the words used to describe him — can confound and confuse.

Why are they calling him white, wondered Paul Ebert, the Prince William County commonwealth's attorney who knew Zimmerman's mother, Gladys, from her days as an interpreter at the county courthouse. Zimmerman's mother, Ebert knew, was Peruvian, and he thought of her as Hispanic.

Looking at Zimmerman's photograph made Darren Soto, a Florida state legislator, think he might be Latino. But he just as easily might have been Italian or French, he thought. "It's all over the place in Florida," said Soto, who represents a statehouse district in Orlando, not far from the gated subdivision in Sanford where Martin died.

"You have people with Anglo first and last names who speak perfect Spanish and are from Puerto Rico. And you've got a third- or fourth-generation Joey Gonzalez from Tampa who can't speak a word of Spanish."

The focus in Florida, where thousands gathered Thursday night in Sanford for an emotional rally, has primarily been on complaints that Martin, 17, may have been targeted because of his race.

In Manassas, Va., where Zimmerman lived in the 1980s and 1990s with his parents and two siblings, neighbors tended to define the family based on their spiritual profile. "Very Catholic ... very religious," their neighbor Jim Rudzenski recalled Thursday. The children attended All Saints Catholic School through the eighth grade before going to Osbourn High School. George became an altar server and evening receptionist at All Saints Catholic Church.

Strict upbringing

The father, Robert Zimmerman, is a retired military man. He could be strict. And the children's grandmother, who lived with the family, also kept a watchful eye, said Kay Hall, who lived across the street from the Zimmermans for about 20 years. George and his siblings "didn't play with the neighborhood kids," Rudzenski said. "They had to stay home and play." It was always "Yes, ma'am," "No, ma'am," Hall said.

Zimmerman's life was not without difficulties. In 2001, when he was 17 or 18, he was the victim of a minor criminal assault, said Manassas police Sgt. Eddie Rivera. The city's computer records do not provide details.

In school, Zimmerman hinted at ambitions in the business world. He joined a Future Business Leaders of America club. In his senior yearbook, he wrote: "I'm going to Florida to work with my godfather who just bought a $1 million business."

In Florida, Zimmerman shifted his plans, enrolling in Seminole State College with hopes of becoming a law-enforcement officer. He became the self-appointed protector of the streets around his home in Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community, although his neighborhood-watch organization was not officially registered.

In the past eight years, he called the police department at least 46 times with reports of various sightings: open garages, suspicious people. In 2005, according to police records obtained by The Orlando Sentinel and other news organizations, Zimmerman was twice accused of either criminal misconduct or violence. He had a concealed-weapon permit and had a black Kel-Tec semiautomatic handgun and a holster the night Martin died.

Zimmerman married Shellie Nicole Dean, a licensed cosmetologist, in late 2007. The next year, he resurfaced in court documents as a credit-card company pursued him for unpaid debts.

Capital One accused Zimmerman of failing to pay more than $1,000. He settled with the company for $2,135.82, records show, to cover his debts with interest, as well as attorney and court costs. However, the credit-card company soon reported that Zimmerman wasn't making the payments he had agreed to.

Zimmerman's employer at the time, CarMax, agreed to garnish his wages. That arrangement was canceled in late 2008 because Zimmerman was no longer employed by CarMax.

It's unclear how Zimmerman was employed when he encountered Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26.

Teontae Ami, who also lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, said very few black teens like himself live in the neighborhood.

Ami, 17, said he and a close friend who is black would sit at the end of a driveway in the evening and felt uncomfortable when Zimmerman would pass them on a neighborhood patrol. They used to greet him, but he never responded, he said.

"I think he took his job too seriously," Ami said, referring to Zimmerman's watch patrols. A student, Ami said his friend was once confronted by Zimmerman, who accused him of stealing a bike.

"I don't want to call it a black thing, but it sure seemed like it," said Ami.

Another neighbor, Frank Taaffe, 55, defended Zimmerman as "not a racist."

Taaffe, a marketing specialist who had been a watch captain with Zimmerman until December, said he may have been "overzealous, maybe," but "his main concern is the safety and welfare of the community."

He said Zimmerman had been doing watch patrols for about a year and was a stand-up guy. Records show Zimmerman is not the owner of the town home where he lives....

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 12:33 PM
Continued.....



Emphasizing diversity

Zimmerman's father has sought to emphasize his family's diversity in hopes of saving his son from condemnation as a racist.

While images of protests from across the country skitter past on television screens, the elder Zimmerman has tried to do what others have been doing, in various ways, for days: define his son. George is "a Spanish-speaking minority," the father wrote in a letter delivered to The Orlando Sentinel. "He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever." George, the father insisted, was more like the boy he killed than people thought. George was a minority — the other — too.

The argument the father is making feels hollow and self-serving to Michaela Angela Davis, an African-American writer and activist who lives in New York. In her eyes, George Zimmerman's Hispanic roots don't give him cover.

"You being a minority doesn't make you immune to racist beliefs," she said in an interview Thursday. Davis sees a pervasive cultural imprint, reinforced by media and entertainment imagery: the black man as a symbol of "violence, fear and deviant behavior." A young man could be susceptible to the influence of that image whether his "mother is from Peru or Norway."

History of tension

Hispanics and black Americans have a shared history of discrimination in the United States. But they also have a shared history of tension in neighborhoods, schools, even prisons. In Latin America, including Peru, Afro Latinos have frequently complained of a lack of political representation, economic disenfranchisement and the virtual absence of their image in popular culture, such as soap operas, an issue they attribute to racial exclusion.

Zimmerman's legal fate could rest on examinations of possible motives that will be pieced together from clues, including snatches of audiotape, and from inquiries into whether he muttered a racial slur before the shooting.

His family background doesn't discount possible racial motives, said Luis Martinez-Fernandez, a professor of Latin American and Caribbean history at the University of Central Florida. Hispanics are an ethnic group, but within that group there are different races. There are black Dominicans and Cubans, for instance.

"Who is Hispanic and who's not is not as clear as other ethnic groups," said Martinez-Fernandez. "There's no such thing as a Hispanic race. It has to do with origin, culture and race. Some people argue that language should be a part. All this complicates identity."

Hispanics make up the nation's largest ethnic group at more than 13 percent of the population, while African Americans are the largest racial group, with more than 12 percent of the population. In the 2010 Census, more than half of people who identified as Hispanic said they were white, and only 3 percent said they were black.

"There's a sense that one group has been harmed historically more than the other," Martinez-Fernandez said. "There's been a history of the dominant group in power pitting one group against the other. I think we have not fought together. There have been few instances of that."

Forging a bond

There have been some signs in Florida that Hispanics and African Americans are forging a bond, said Soto, the state legislator. During redistricting debates in Florida, the two groups have "stuck together very solidly," he said.

If not for a quirk of fate, Martin and Zimmerman might never have encountered each other. Several years ago, Zimmerman returned to his old neighborhood and showed up unannounced at the house across the street. He came back two more times to see George Hall, a retired Presbyterian minister.

Zimmerman told him that he had plans. He wanted to move back to Virginia. He wanted to be a police officer, but he needed a letter of recommendation that Zimmerman could give to prospective employers.

"I told them he was a great guy," Hall recalled. "We never did hear what happened with that."

Post staff writers Brady Dennis, Sari Horowitz and Jeremy Borden contributed to this report. Material from The Orlando Sentinel is included in this report.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 01:50 PM
Typical manipulation of the masses by the lamestream press......since they keep showing Trayvon only as a young, sweetly smiling 'child'. The truth is....he grew into a 6'3" man...and was not so 'sweet' any more.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't already have a police record.

At the best he wasn't too awfully bright, perhaps with a chip on his shoulder. At the worst, he could have been 'on something' and looking to break in and steal something.

I just hope all of this media hype and the usual suspect black activists don't keep the truth from coming out. It's happened before.


It's all been a big propaganda circus. The photos are meant to undercut the idea that Zimmerman could have been frightened of that "little boy". A 6'3'' teen, practically a man and taller than most men (outside of the NBA) could scare the shorter and out of shape Zimmerman.

My guess is that there's a lot we don't know about both Trayvon and his dad. I believe is mom is genuinely in pain, but I think dad is looking for a big payday. I also think dad lost track of Trayvon which is why he can't remember when the teen left the house and ties it to an NBA game that was televised AFTER Trayvon's death.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 01:53 PM
The argument the father is making feels hollow and self-serving to Michaela Angela Davis, an African-American writer and activist who lives in New York. In her eyes, George Zimmerman's Hispanic roots don't give him cover.

"You being a minority doesn't make you immune to racist beliefs," she said in an interview Thursday. Davis sees a pervasive cultural imprint, reinforced by media and entertainment imagery: the black man as a symbol of "violence, fear and deviant behavior." A young man could be susceptible to the influence of that image whether his "mother is from Peru or Norway."

Tell me about it, Michaela. Anyone can be racist. Even you.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 02:06 PM
22. Why are you talking about Zimmerman not getting a fair trial when Trayvon didn't get any trial at all!!!111 Zimmerman was judge, jury and executioner!!1!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002460596


We are talking about Zimmerman getting a fair trial because the hysteria being whipped up could guarantee an unfair one. The judicial system should not be compromised because Weird Al Sharpton has everyone at fever pitch.

And as far as Trayvon goes, Zimmerman did not "sit in judgment" with him and coldly pull the trigger. Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and Zimmerman has the injuries and bleeding to prove it. Zimmerman was scared of the 6'3'' young man and was scared for his life. Under Florida law, he's allowed to shoot under those circumstances. Now disagree with the law if you like. Get it changed. But lynching Zimmerman is not going to change the fact that Trayvon attacked him physically when he could have simply gone away, hidden, gotten help, called the police himself, any number of things. Sometimes, when you pick the worst option, you get the worst result.

And don't tell me the NRA and the guys who wrote the Florida bill think Zimmerman is guilty. They are throwing Zimmerman under the bus to protect their law. Jeesh!

Taylor2012
03-23-2012, 02:14 PM
He was up to no good, obviously.....and yet the lamestream media continues to demonize Zimmerman....
counting on most Americans being too stupid to know (or too apathetic to care) that Zimmerman is an adopted Hispanic.

Here is a link that a leftie posted on another forum, in that attempt to slime Zimmerman.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition

Count on the rabid left to use this incident to change the Stand Your Ground Law, the concealed carry laws and to further their anti-gun ownership campaign.



Whatever he was doing, Trayvon was not in a hurry to get home for the NBA All Star Game, which started at 7:30. The pregame was at 7.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 02:18 PM
23. But we have proof!! From an unknown audio diagnostic! Someone put a video on youtube! Astounding evidence, you racist Republican bitch!!! Zimmerman said "f--ing c--ns"!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002449632


Well kiddies, I'm going to point you back to my Politics Nation post on page 2, where the family's own attorney backtracked on the tape with the expletive. Other tapes did not have it.

And really, an unknown audio person? Youtube?

Get me a professional with the official tape from the Sanford Police department and we'll talk.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 02:21 PM
He was up to no good, obviously.....and yet the lamestream media continues to demonize Zimmerman....
counting on most Americans being too stupid to know (or too apathetic to care) that Zimmerman is an adopted Hispanic.

Here is a link that a leftie posted on another forum, in that attempt to slime Zimmerman.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition

Count on the rabid left to use this incident to change the Stand Your Ground Law, the concealed carry laws and to further their anti-gun ownership campaign.

Thanks for the link.

Do you ever wonder why the family insists that Trayvon left to get snacks during halftime of the NBA All Star Game which started at 7:30, the very time that Trayvon was being pronounced dead by the Sanford FD paramedic? (See the police report). Doesn't that strike you odd?

Taylor2012
03-23-2012, 02:27 PM
Agreed. But here's a thought. After listening to the youtube video you linked us to.....it occurred to me. What good reason would Trayvon have had to run away....towards the back entrance of the clubhouse vs. towards the house he came from, AFTER approaching Zimmerman when he was on the phone?

Could Trayvon have been carrying a weapon? Maybe a knife or something? And hearing Zimmerman on the phone with someone Trayvon assumed was the police....might he not have run away to ditch the weapon? I wonder if the entire area has been scoured for such a weapon?




It's all been a big propaganda circus. The photos are meant to undercut the idea that Zimmerman could have been frightened of that "little boy". A 6'3'' teen, practically a man and taller than most men (outside of the NBA) could scare the shorter and out of shape Zimmerman.

My guess is that there's a lot we don't know about both Trayvon and his dad. I believe is mom is genuinely in pain, but I think dad is looking for a big payday. I also think dad lost track of Trayvon which is why he can't remember when the teen left the house and ties it to an NBA game that was televised AFTER Trayvon's death.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Agreed. But here's a thought. After listening to the youtube video you linked us to.....it occurred to me. What good reason would Trayvon have had to run away....towards the back entrance of the clubhouse vs. towards the house he came from, AFTER approaching Zimmerman when he was on the phone?

Could Trayvon have been carrying a weapon? Maybe a knife or something? And hearing Zimmerman on the phone with someone Trayvon assumed was the police....might he not have run away to ditch the weapon? I wonder if the entire area has been scoured for such a weapon?

Maybe he had drugs on him.

He doesn't strike me as a violent kid, but his attendance at school had been taking a beating. That's why he was suspended for a week--unusual, unless the attendance issues were major. Often, if a kid stops showing up to class or begins a habit of strolling in 20-30 minutes late, there's been a major change in him: depression, drugs, the wrong friends, etc.

I wondered if that's why his mother sent him to his dad's for the suspension week. To keep him out of Miami, away from some bad influences (friends with drugs?). But it sounds like daddy lost control of the kid early on. If you don't report your minor child missing until the next morning, there are issues.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 08:38 PM
#24. ZIMMERMAN LIED!!!11@ (At least according to my own ears...)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002463101

Gotta love this one.


cynatnite (24,185 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

View profile

Zimmerman Lied!

Last edited Fri Mar 23, 2012, 06:09 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
Someone posted the Twin Lakes initial shooting report and I read through it. I got to this part...

Zimmerman was overheard saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Then I want to this site and listened to the 9/11 calls from that night...

http://z6mag.com/featured/trayvon-martin-911-call-from-neighbors-and-zimmerman-audio-166633.html

I listened to Zimmerman's voice and then later was the recording of someone crying for help. The voices are considerably different. The one yelling for help sounds like a young boy crying for his life.

The voices are completely different. It seems to me that Zimmerman lied about yelling for help in order to cover up who was really crying for help.

Am I seeing this wrong?

OK, kiddo,

First: If you have any doubts at all about your perception, then you can't put that Zimmerman (or anyone else) "LIED!!!!11" in your thread title.

Second: If you have no actual proof--like from a professional analysis from an expert or company that does auditory analysis--then you can't put that Zimmerman (or anyone else) "LIED!!!!11" in your thread title.

Third: Your personal "analysis" is useless. To identify the spectral envelope of a complicated soundwave like a human voice takes a professional. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you can't put that Zimmerman (or anyone else) "LIED!!!!11" in your thread title.

This is a smear, pure and simple.

PS: Trayvon was not a "young boy". He was a 6'3'' 17-year old male. We don't, as of yet, know what he sounded like, if his voice was a tenor or bass, for example. I'm guessing he was a baritone or bass, but time will tell. Zimmerman, however, has a higher tenor voice and could easily be the voice on the tape. We won't know for sure until a spectral analysis is done.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 08:53 PM
25. George Zimmerman's father is a retired Judge !!11!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=461977


Editing to add: His father being a judge in the same town might indicate that he knew police enforcement officials in the city.

OK, kiddies.

The Zimmerman family lived in Manassas, Virginia until 10 years ago. They moved to Florida after Robert and Gladys Zimmerman retired.

http://dcist.com/2012/03/george_zimmerman_vigilante_who_shot.php

Sorry, no conspiracy.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 09:01 PM
Hmmm.....

http://manassas.patch.com/articles/george-williams-was-victim-of-assault-in-manassas


George Zimmerman Was Victim of Assault in Manassas

The man under fire in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Florida last month was the victim of an assault that took place in Manassas.

Manassa City Police Sgt. Eddie Rivera said one-time Manassas resident George Zimmerman was a victim of an assault in 2001, but he was never listed as an offender or suspect.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2017819414.html


Zimmerman's life was not without difficulties. In 2001, when he was 17 or 18, he was the victim of a minor criminal assault, said Manassas police Sgt. Eddie Rivera. The city's computer records do not provide details.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 09:11 PM
26. College Expels George Zimmerman Following Trayvon Martin Shooting !!11!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002458427


In light of Trayvon Martin‘s death, Seminole State College has expelled George Zimmerman, the man who shot Martin. The college released a statement Thursday addressing the “high-profile controversy” — citing student safety as the sole reason.

“Due to the highly charged and high-profile controversy involving this student, Seminole State has taken the unusual but necessary step this week to withdraw Mr. Zimmerman from enrollment. This decision is based solely on our responsibility to provide for the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman.”



http://www.mediaite.com/online/college-expels-george-zimmerman-following-trayvon-martin-shooting/
6

So that means that George Zimmerman is EVIL!!!

Well no, it means that the college is scared for its own safety and the safety of its students. I'm betting the college got threats from those "purehearted" supporters of Trayvon Martin. :cold:


But that doesn't stop some people from pre-convicting Zimmerman:


Trillo (6,639 posts)

3. Shouldn't the as'ole be found guilty in court


before everyone starts calling him guilty?

JFN1 (1,888 posts)
4. "Innocent until proven guilty"


is the standard set for our judicial system.

This, however, is the court of public opinion, where no such standard exists.

I believe Zimmerman committed 1st deegree murder, and no hand-wringing about Zimmerman's rights, or how the public is abusing them, will not convince me otherwise.

Without a single scrap of hard evidence which clears him, and a veritable shitstorm of evidence which implicates him, suggesting to the public that the public is being unfair towards Zimmerman, is unreasonable





So Zimmerman deserves to be slandered in the media because it's "the court of public opinion"?

Note to the highly emotional JFN1: The reason we have a judicial system is because "the court of public opinion" is often wrong, led astray by emotion, bias, and baseless supposition. Sorry to ruin your anger orgasm by mentioning that, though.

:justice:

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 09:16 PM
27. Trayvon also made a 911 call? How come we are not hearing about it? !!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002462994


Now, this could be interesting. We'll actually hear Trayvon's voice and see if he's a tenor or bass.

Stay tuned.

Taylor2012
03-23-2012, 09:35 PM
Well you know how some fathers can be. Chalk it up to the "boys will be boys/Charlie Sheen" Syndrome.

And it's so much easier to just ignore the "kid" and do what feels good at the moment (apparently).

Which explains the extreme indignation (attempt to cover the failure to father) fascade.



Maybe he had drugs on him.

He doesn't strike me as a violent kid, but his attendance at school had been taking a beating. That's why he was suspended for a week--unusual, unless the attendance issues were major. Often, if a kid stops showing up to class or begins a habit of strolling in 20-30 minutes late, there's been a major change in him: depression, drugs, the wrong friends, etc.

I wondered if that's why his mother sent him to his dad's for the suspension week. To keep him out of Miami, away from some bad influences (friends with drugs?). But it sounds like daddy lost control of the kid early on. If you don't report your minor child missing until the next morning, there are issues.

Adam Wood
03-23-2012, 09:48 PM
Maybe he had drugs on him.

He doesn't strike me as a violent kid, but his attendance at school had been taking a beating. That's why he was suspended for a week--unusual, unless the attendance issues were major. Often, if a kid stops showing up to class or begins a habit of strolling in 20-30 minutes late, there's been a major change in him: depression, drugs, the wrong friends, etc.

I wondered if that's why his mother sent him to his dad's for the suspension week. To keep him out of Miami, away from some bad influences (friends with drugs?). But it sounds like daddy lost control of the kid early on. If you don't report your minor child missing until the next morning, there are issues.Unless something has come along to change it, my understanding is that he was actually suspended for two weeks. Ten days' suspension, at five school days per week, means two weeks AFAIC.

And I'm still not buying the notion of Mom shipping the kid out of Miami for a couple of weeks just to "cool off" or whatever her excuse was. I think he was gotten out of town until something blew over, and I would not be the least bit surprised if that something involved the police somehow.

NJCardFan
03-23-2012, 10:10 PM
26. College Expels George Zimmerman Following Trayvon Martin Shooting !!11!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002458427


So that means that George Zimmerman is EVIL!!!

Well no, it means that the college is scared for its own safety and the safety of its students. I'm betting the college got threats from those "purehearted" supporters of Trayvon Martin. :cold:


But that doesn't stop some people from pre-convicting Zimmerman:




So Zimmerman deserves to be slandered in the media because it's "the court of public opinion"?

Note to the highly emotional JFN1: The reason we have a judicial system is because "the court of public opinion" is often wrong, led astray by emotion, bias, and baseless supposition. Sorry to ruin your anger orgasm by mentioning that, though.

:justice:

One needs to look back no further than the Duke lacrosse case. Those kids were tried, found guilty, and executed in the media much like this guy has been. "Peaceful" groups like the New Black Panther Party said that the only outcome they would have been satisfied with was a guilty verdict...even though when all was said and done both the 'victim' and prosecutor lied their asses off about certain aspects of the case and eventually they were exonerated. But I digress, this is the same knee jerk "public opinion" that painted Jacob Laughner as some kind of right wing cook seconds after the Gabriel Giffords shooting, not to mention the sheriff of Pima County outright blaming conservative talk radio without 5 seconds of an investigation in the case and to this day there are those, like our president, who still blame talk radio for that shooting even though ALL evidence supports that Laughner was and is nothing but another barking moonbat leftist.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 10:35 PM
Well you know how some fathers can be. Chalk it up to the "boys will be boys/Charlie Sheen" Syndrome.

And it's so much easier to just ignore the "kid" and do what feels good at the moment (apparently).

Which explains the extreme indignation (attempt to cover the failure to father) fascade.


It's funny how the parents with the most righteous indignation have some of the most rotten kids. If Zimmerman's lawyers are smart, they'll put the Martin family on the table for examination. I want to know why the father lied about the time his son left and why he waited til the next morning to call the cops.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 10:39 PM
One needs to look back no further than the Duke lacrosse case. Those kids were tried, found guilty, and executed in the media much like this guy has been. "Peaceful" groups like the New Black Panther Party said that the only outcome they would have been satisfied with was a guilty verdict...even though when all was said and done both the 'victim' and prosecutor lied their asses off about certain aspects of the case and eventually they were exonerated. But I digress, this is the same knee jerk "public opinion" that painted Jacob Laughner as some kind of right wing cook seconds after the Gabriel Giffords shooting, not to mention the sheriff of Pima County outright blaming conservative talk radio without 5 seconds of an investigation in the case and to this day there are those, like our president, who still blame talk radio for that shooting even though ALL evidence supports that Laughner was and is nothing but another barking moonbat leftist.

I remember the Duke case. They ruined those guys for a while. The prosecutor got his, though.

And anyone who blames conservative talk radio for Giffords' shooting should remember to blame MSNBC when some white (or Peruvian) kid pays for this current hysteria with his life.

Speaking of which, I hope they have George Zimmerman on suicide watch.

Elspeth
03-23-2012, 10:40 PM
Unless something has come along to change it, my understanding is that he was actually suspended for two weeks. Ten days' suspension, at five school days per week, means two weeks AFAIC.

And I'm still not buying the notion of Mom shipping the kid out of Miami for a couple of weeks just to "cool off" or whatever her excuse was. I think he was gotten out of town until something blew over, and I would not be the least bit surprised if that something involved the police somehow.

Let me know when you get a mainstream source on this. I would love to know exactly how long his suspension was. Eventually, this will have to come out at the trial.

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 12:00 AM
Everything about this incident srikes me as 'odd'. And what's the deal with the kid jonesing for skittles? Any kid that was suspended from school should have been told to stay put and deal with what was on hand to eat. And did they not have anything 'else' to drink at that high-dollar pad .....that he would have to have store-bought tea?

Sorry, but that kid was out for more than just a sugar break. But that's just my natural pessimism and realistic logic kicking in. Plus...IF he had gone straight to the store and gone straight back he would have been home within 20-30 minutes. Instead, he decided to snoop about.

Problem is, this thing happened a month ago and most of the evidence is either now gone or is being concealed. And since the story is now viral, Zimmerman could be railroaded by the lamestream media and racist activists. And of course, their REAL goal is to change the law and restrict gun ownership.....as usual. That...and to make any white person or non-black person have to think twice before using deadly force to defend themselves against a black person in this Obamanation. The Obama leftists want the thought in the back of white peoples minds that...if you live through an attack by a black and you do use deadly force ...you may face Eric Holder investigating you and protecting HIS PEOPLE.

And once again, Obama has spoken up and managed to further divide the nation. It's almost like he's "hoping" to incite a race war....eh?

Anyway....I took a look at the resort clubhouse area and pool online. It's fancy schmancy.....NICE. Looks like a ripe place to loot...if someone were bored enough and stupid enough to try.




Thanks for the link.

Do you ever wonder why the family insists that Trayvon left to get snacks during halftime of the NBA All Star Game which started at 7:30, the very time that Trayvon was being pronounced dead by the Sanford FD paramedic? (See the police report). Doesn't that strike you odd?

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 12:04 AM
The father sounds like a Charlie Sheenish kinda "dad".

The kind that tells the kid to go occupy himself and get out of the house for a few hours or days.

Well....we've seen the result of 'that kind' of parenting....all too often.

The father should be blaming himself....but he won't, of course.


It's funny how the parents with the most righteous indignation have some of the most rotten kids. If Zimmerman's lawyers are smart, they'll put the Martin family on the table for examination. I want to know why the father lied about the time his son left and why he waited til the next morning to call the cops.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 12:52 AM
Everything about this incident srikes me as 'odd'.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I feel like we're watching a major disinformation campaign, and the "facts" keep changing.



And what's the deal with the kid jonesing for skittles? Any kid that was suspended from school should have been told to stay put and deal with what was on hand to eat. And did they not have anything 'else' to drink at that high-dollar pad .....that he would have to have store-bought tea?

For me, the question is why let the kid go out at dusk? Sunset in Florida on February 26th was 5:44 pm. In order to have just popped out for candy and come back by 7 (when Zimmerman saw him), Trayvon would had to have gone out around or just after sunset. Who lets their kids walk to the store at sunset alone in a neighborhood they don't know well? Another detail that doesn't fit.



Sorry, but that kid was out for more than just a sugar break. But that's just my natural pessimism and realistic logic kicking in. Plus...IF he had gone straight to the store and gone straight back he would have been home within 20-30 minutes. Instead, he decided to snoop about.

He certainly did not seem to be in a hurry to get home for the NBA game. That's one reason why I think the old man kicked him out of the house, either because of a fight or because he wanted to have sex with the girlfriend. Otherwise, that kid would have been glued to the TV screen like every other teenage boy watching the NBA.



Problem is, this thing happened a month ago and most of the evidence is either now gone or is being concealed.

That's a huge problem. The Sanford police didn't do Zimmerman any favors with an incomplete investigation either.


And since the story is now viral, Zimmerman could be railroaded by the lamestream media and racist activists.

That's exactly my fear. I hope the NRA send money for Zimmerman's defense, even if they disavow him in the media.


And of course, their REAL goal is to change the law and restrict gun ownership.....as usual.

Well, we knew that. Gun control is the last thing, I think. They seem to have taken everything else.


And once again, Obama has spoken up and managed to further divide the nation. It's almost like he's "hoping" to incite a race war....eh?

He's fanning the flames, but that's all about the election. Remember Obama hasn't really done jack for the rank and file Democrat. Real activists with credentials (not OWS) have been infuriated with Obama's power grabs and with his lack of concern for regular people, especially Blacks, whom he is not helping especially. This Trayvon thing is a gift from heaven (or a fabricated cause) to help Obama look like he's helping minorities so they will come out in huge numbers and vote for him this year. Remember that this is not 2008 and the polls have gone up and down. This is no cake walk, and the Obama people know it.



Anyway....I took a look at the resort clubhouse area and pool online. It's fancy schmancy.....NICE. Looks like a ripe place to loot...if someone were bored enough and stupid enough to try.

Is there a link?

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 01:08 AM
27. Oh Nooos!! The Evil Fox News is LYING!!!

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

A local Fox station in Orlando Florida says this:


Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

nightflight
03-24-2012, 03:14 AM
Too bad there wasn't this much outrage over the Allen Coon case.

NJCardFan
03-24-2012, 11:22 AM
Too bad there wasn't this much outrage over the Allen Coon case.

Well put. Shame that Obama hasn't called him to see if he's doing ok. I'd bet getting set on fire isn't all that much fun.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 01:09 PM
Don't want to forget this:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

A local Fox station in Orlando Florida says this:


Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 01:11 PM
http://thewesternexperience.com/2012/03/23/allen-coon-vs-trayvon-martin/


Allen Coon vs Trayvon Martin
Posted on March 23, 2012 by Jason Bradley

The similarities are that they are both tragic, especially when children are involved. In the case of Trayvon Martin, one child died and the race factor is starting to creep in.

Allen Coon was not killed but was badly burned by older black teens who deliberately targeted him for being white. Race was clearly a factor in that case.

“You get what you deserve, white boy” while attempting to immolate him using gasoline and a match. The boy stifled the fire rapidly with his shirt, called 911 himself, and hopefully will not suffer the loss of his eyesight or other permanent injury.

The police have (surprise, surprise) decided not to treat this as a hate crime.

Everyone now knows who Trayvon Martin was. No one knows much about Allen Coon. Both cases are equally tragic, but remarkably different. For what reason?

Adam Wood
03-24-2012, 01:12 PM
Let me know when you get a mainstream source on this. I would love to know exactly how long his suspension was. Eventually, this will have to come out at the trial.While I am not intimately familiar with the source, I have no specific reason to doubt them (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/316154/20120319/trayvon-martin-parents-shooter-george-zimmerman-911.htm). This is corroborated by The Miami Herald, for what it's worth.

Given that the school's own policies for suspensions specifically rule out a five-day suspension, I'm much more inclined to believe a ten-day suspension.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 01:13 PM
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2012/03/something_can_and_must_be_done.html


You may or may not have heard (it was not exactly widely reported in the MSM) that white 13-year-old Allen Coon in Kansas City was recently set on fire by two older black boys who followed him home from school. Though it takes a virtual Sherlock Holmes to piece together the information from choppy, reticent, and downright misleading local news accounts, it appears that the attackers said, "You get what you deserve, white boy" while attempting to immolate him using gasoline and a match. The boy stifled the fire rapidly with his shirt, called 911 himself, and hopefully will not suffer the loss of his eyesight or other permanent injury.

The police have (surprise, surprise) decided not to treat this as a hate crime.

Now further information emerges: Allen's mother reports that Allen was regularly targeted for race-baiting at his school, not only by fellow students but also by a teacher, Carla Kinder, who used racial epithets toward him and encouraged the students to do the same.

Other times, the students would initiate the harassment, and the teachers would pick up the baton.

And Mrs. Coon reports that teacher Karla Dorsey, who is black, dismissed Allen's attempt to answer a question about black history month saying, "What would you know about it? You're not our race."

Nor is this sort of thing being reported by Allen's family alone. Other families of the very few white students in the school report similar incidents.

One day, [teacher Veda] Monday allegedly showed an explicit film involving portrayals of whites lynching blacks and then, reports ex-Texan Wildeisen, "in front of the class attacked my daughters, telling them that 'everybody from Texas is ignorant rednecks'" and that all white people were "responsible for Jasper because [their] skin is white." This reference is to an atrocity in Jasper, TX, in which three white men murdered a black man in 1998.

Another white victim is 15-year-old Ashley Miller, whose family had moved to K.C., MO, from Kansas. Subject to racial harassment, she was called names such as "white b****." She also actually shared a class with Allen Coon, and as the only two white students in the room, they became the target of sexual comments. Moreover, she reports the same experience with race-baiting videos as do the Wildeisens: they would be shown, and an onus would be placed on the white students. Her mother Melissa told me that she now fears for her daughter's safety and, you guessed it, is in the process of withdrawing Ashley from East High. And the rest of the pattern is holding, too: the Millers are contemplating leaving the area.

Talk to the principal? You've got to be kidding. No help there:

Melissa Coon had been complaining to the school's administration about her son's harassment repeatedly -- only to be ignored and stonewalled -- repeatedly. At one point an administrator told her that her son could have a transfer only to another district school but said that Allen would have "more problems there" and that he should stay at more "racially diverse" East High (which has no more than 20 white students). At another, a vice principal Coon identifies as Ms. Jessica Bassett denied, while shaking and rubbing her hands together nervously, ever having heard about Allen's problems even though they had been brought to her attention on at least five occasions....

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 01:17 PM
While I am not intimately familiar with the source, I have no specific reason to doubt them (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/316154/20120319/trayvon-martin-parents-shooter-george-zimmerman-911.htm). This is corroborated by The Miami Herald, for what it's worth.

Given that the school's own policies for suspensions specifically rule out a five-day suspension, I'm much more inclined to believe a ten-day suspension.

The Miami Herald article is a good one. I may post it.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 01:31 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-fullstory/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html

TEN days, not five.


Martin, who was from Miami Gardens, was killed in Sanford, a town of 55,000 just north of Orlando. His father took Trayvon there after the junior was suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High.

The family has refused to say why Trayvon was suspended, only offering that he had violated school policy. They said his act was not violent or criminal....

“I wanted him to get back focused on his priorities, his goals,” Martin said of his decision to drive to Sanford with his son. “I wanted some one-on-one time.”

Tracy Martin, who lives in Miami-Dade, is divorced from Trayvon’s mom. He says he often visits his girlfriend Brandy Green, who has rented the same townhouse in Sanford for more than four years.

...Trayvon’s grades were average, although he used to take advanced courses. He recently transferred from Carol City High because the family moved and she wanted him to stay close to his older brother, 21-year-old Jahvaris Fulton, a junior at Florida International University.


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-fullstory/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy


When Trayvon went missing, Tracy Martin began searching for his son 12-13 hours after he left the house, according to MSNBC Politics Nation (Al Sharpton), March 21. The Miami Herald article tells us that he first checked to see if Trayvon had been arrested:





When he didn’t return back to the townhouse, it would be another 12 hours before Tracy Martin found out his son was dead.

“I started making calls to see if he was arrested,” he said.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/v-fullstory/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy

Suspended for 10 days and his father was concerned that his son had been arrested. Clearly there's more to this story.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 03:03 PM
27. The very last thing that Trayvon did before he was killed was cry and plead for his own life!!11!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=461883


Crying and pleading for HIS own life… Then his life was snuffed out by a 9mil round to his chest.

Hearing and seeing his pleas, Zimmerman still shot him, using an excuse that HE himself was the one who was in fear of his own life.


Uh, no.

We don't know who did the crying and pleading.

Zimmerman claims that he was the one who screamed and a witness backs him up.

This emotionally gripping misrepresentation is just propaganda. At least until we know the real truth.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 08:37 PM
YES!!!

A young man cannot leave the house during an NBA game before which he has already died.

Here's the real story of the night Trayvon got shot:


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/trayvon_martin_parents_recall_the_A0KRK2O5pd7swIKs q03ypN#ixzz1q50bfsQN


....17-year-old Trayvon had been spending time with his 20-year-old cousin which is why his father, Tracy Martin, tells People he wasn't worried when Trayvon wasn't at home that night....

..."I had gone out for dinner," Tracy says. "And when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

It wasn't until the next morning, when Tracy's nephew said he hadn't seen Trayvon, that Tracy became worried. He called the Sheriff's department, told them Trayvon was missing and that it was unusual for him not to return home....


As we said on this thread, Tracy Martin had no idea when Trayvon left the house. The NBA game story was a lie. Maybe someone in the media actually checked the game time against Trayvon's time of death.

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 09:31 PM
The thing that bothers me about this whole Obama/leftist media campaign to demonize whitey.....is that...

when you as a white person, is confronted by a black intent on doing you harm in the future, what if you hesitate before defending yourself. What if... in that split second before pulling the trigger, you stop to think about the "Zimmerman consequences" before firing? You could end up dead that way.

Of course, I think that is EXACTLY what Obama and his anti-white, racist "folk" want to happen. I think they want whites to be afraid to fight back against blacks.

This, like everything else Obama has done, is going to backfire BIG TIME, IMO. And the Obama race-baiting and flaming is only going to get worse from here.



http://thewesternexperience.com/2012/03/23/allen-coon-vs-trayvon-martin/


Allen Coon vs Trayvon Martin
Posted on March 23, 2012 by Jason Bradley

The similarities are that they are both tragic, especially when children are involved. In the case of Trayvon Martin, one child died and the race factor is starting to creep in.

Allen Coon was not killed but was badly burned by older black teens who deliberately targeted him for being white. Race was clearly a factor in that case.

“You get what you deserve, white boy” while attempting to immolate him using gasoline and a match. The boy stifled the fire rapidly with his shirt, called 911 himself, and hopefully will not suffer the loss of his eyesight or other permanent injury.

The police have (surprise, surprise) decided not to treat this as a hate crime.

Everyone now knows who Trayvon Martin was. No one knows much about Allen Coon. Both cases are equally tragic, but remarkably different. For what reason?

Rockntractor
03-24-2012, 09:38 PM
This, like everything else Obama has done, is going to backfire BIG TIME, IMO. And the Obama race-baiting and flaming is only going to get worse from here.

We have to show up in November, every last one of us, or he will get away with it!

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 09:54 PM
Here is a link to the real estate site showing the clubhouse and pool area:

http://www.easystreetrealty-orlando.com/1251-retreat-view-cir-sanford-florida-32771/mls5085214

And here is a link you may already have (since I haven't yet read everything here)...

about the eye witness that saw the scuffle prior to the shooting:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anonymous-witness-police-used-tells-local-news-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/

This link also has links to other info, like the police report:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

I just saved it to a .pdf in case it gets scrubbed. You probably know how fast the stories about Malia in Mexico got erased.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 10:01 PM
Here is a link to the real estate site showing the clubhouse and pool area:

http://www.easystreetrealty-orlando.com/1251-retreat-view-cir-sanford-florida-32771/mls5085214



That's a pretty clubhouse, and much larger than the houses themselves, which appear rather small. The interior of the house for sale appears a little cramped. But the clubhouse is huge with a nice sized pool. So that's where Trayvon was.


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anonymous-witness-police-used-tells-local-news-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/[/url]

I just saved it to a .pdf in case it gets scrubbed. You probably know how fast the stories about Malia in Mexico got erased.

I saw this earlier on Fox's website and have another link for it. However, you can see Media ITE's bias in the way they couch the information. "The witness the police used" (he MUST be lying!) LOL!!!

Good video there.

Here it is again from youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFOrPYD0Q0

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 10:05 PM
Agreed. And I don't care who ends up on the GOP ticket. It's ABO for me!

We can work out the "kinks" from there.


We have to show up in November, every last one of us, or he will get away with it!

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 10:12 PM
The thing that bothers me about this whole Obama/leftist media campaign to demonize whitey.....is that...

when you as a white person, is confronted by a black intent on doing you harm in the future, what if you hesitate before defending yourself. What if... in that split second before pulling the trigger, you stop to think about the "Zimmerman consequences" before firing? You could end up dead that way.
.

That's a reasonable fear.

SarasotaRepub
03-24-2012, 10:15 PM
The criminal scum should be happy with this, I bet any new neighborhood crime watches are going to come to a screeching halt.

Our neighborhood is thinking of doing this but we need a min. of 20 people. I'm guessing it's going to be hard to find the people now but maybe I'll be proven wrong...

SaintLouieWoman
03-24-2012, 10:17 PM
I just saved it to a .pdf in case it gets scrubbed. You probably know how fast the stories about Malia in Mexico got erased.

They scrubbed it so fast, didn't see it. Was there anything of particular interest there, other than more of our tax dollars squandered so the kid could take a trip with x amount of buddies and x amount of Secret Service on the taxpayers' dime?

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 10:17 PM
Yeah, they'll probably be claiming that the witness must be lying because he isn't "black". Or...they'll say the officer that reported, Ricardo Ayala (from the police report), was obviously biased for the Hispanic "white guy".

It's all so patently absurd and asinine....words (other than those) fail me....lol.

And according to that police report, that "kid" weighed 160, NOT 140. A 6'1" kid taking on a 5'9" hispanic guy. This whole thing is just another Fluke.

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 10:22 PM
No, nothing other than Malia with her rich white girlfriends doing the tourista schtick and almost getting nailed by an earthquake. But when the Obama snoops discovered that most of the comments on the web were unfavorable about that trip, they sent out flag warnings to yank the story. We can't have any bad PR out there about "the One" this close to the election now, can we?

My thoughts were, what if that earthquake had been stronger and more lethal? What excuse would the Obamas have had for letting Malia, a 13-yr old, go there without them? NONE.

One thing Obama DOES have in common with Trayvon's father. Neither seems to care what their kid is doing and where they're doing it. (just my personal observation and opinion)

They scrubbed it so fast, didn't see it. Was there anything of particular interest there, other than more of our tax dollars squandered so the kid could take a trip with x amount of buddies and x amount of Secret Service on the taxpayers' dime?

NJCardFan
03-24-2012, 10:37 PM
http://thewesternexperience.com/2012/03/23/allen-coon-vs-trayvon-martin/


Allen Coon vs Trayvon Martin
Posted on March 23, 2012 by Jason Bradley

The similarities are that they are both tragic, especially when children are involved. In the case of Trayvon Martin, one child died and the race factor is starting to creep in.

Allen Coon was not killed but was badly burned by older black teens who deliberately targeted him for being white. Race was clearly a factor in that case.

“You get what you deserve, white boy” while attempting to immolate him using gasoline and a match. The boy stifled the fire rapidly with his shirt, called 911 himself, and hopefully will not suffer the loss of his eyesight or other permanent injury.

The police have (surprise, surprise) decided not to treat this as a hate crime.

Everyone now knows who Trayvon Martin was. No one knows much about Allen Coon. Both cases are equally tragic, but remarkably different. For what reason?
This just goes to prove that Obama's presidency from the start was nothing but a "make whitey pay" campaign.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 10:38 PM
Taylor,

Thought you'd be interested in this characterization of the witness who saw Zimmerman attacked:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002467262

Right wing already using tabloid journalism to muddy up Trayvon Martin case

The Daily Mail which is a UK tabloid ran a questionable story about a witness named "John" who claims Trayvon attacked Zimmerman even though he never claims to see who started the altercation. Now Drudge has picked up the story and its spreading like wild fire among conservative sites even though Fox News won't even touch the story, yet.

This is how the right wing works. They use BS sources to throw out lies, Drudge links to them and once the lies take on a life of their own then they start to report the lies and truth. Jon Stewart did a great segment on how they pull this crap. It's in the early stages in this story. They were probably waiting for Obama to make a comment on it and once he did then they pounced.


http://themoderatevoice.com/142394/new-trayvon-martin-twist-witness-reportedly-tells-police-martin-attacked-zimmernan/

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 10:44 PM
Yeah, they'll probably be claiming that the witness must be lying because he isn't "black". Or...they'll say the officer that reported, Ricardo Ayala (from the police report), was obviously biased for the Hispanic "white guy".

It's all so patently absurd and asinine....words (other than those) fail me....lol.

And according to that police report, that "kid" weighed 160, NOT 140. A 6'1" kid taking on a 5'9" hispanic guy. This whole thing is just another Fluke.

OK, Trayvon was 160 lbs. The Martin attorneys said that George Zimmerman was 80 lbs heavier; that would make Zimmerman 240. (No wonder he got winded so easily on the tape).

Where did you get 6'1'' and 5'9''? Everything I read said Trayvon was 6'3''. And I have found no height on Zimmerman.

Elspeth
03-24-2012, 10:55 PM
Went to Wiki. Not a good source, but they have this:

He was 17 years old, 6' 3" and weighing 140 pounds (police report below estimates 160 lbs) at the time of his death.

his mother is a Miami-Dade government employee and his father is a truck driver.

According to his father Tracy Martin, he was suspended because he was in an unauthorized area on school property, but he declined to offer more details.

------

OK. The police report has George Zimmerman at 5'9. No weight listed.

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 11:57 PM
LOL! Oh gads.....the lefties do so LOVE Jon Stewart. All the news that's fit to laugh and sneer and snort at!

And don't you love how the left always accuses us of doing exactly what they've been doing all along?

I've been having fun in the comments section of several Trayvon articles. The stupidity of the anti-Zimmerman people is stunning.

Thanks for the link, btw.


Taylor,

Thought you'd be interested in this characterization of the witness who saw Zimmerman attacked:

Taylor2012
03-24-2012, 11:59 PM
Oh my. So the "kid" has a pattern/history of being where he isn't supposed to be.

Gee....who woulda guessed?




Went to Wiki. Not a good source, but they have this:

He was 17 years old, 6' 3" and weighing 140 pounds (police report below estimates 160 lbs) at the time of his death.

his mother is a Miami-Dade government employee and his father is a truck driver.

According to his father Tracy Martin, he was suspended because he was in an unauthorized area on school property, but he declined to offer more details.

------

OK. The police report has George Zimmerman at 5'9. No weight listed.

Taylor2012
03-25-2012, 12:11 AM
At this point, I couldn't even tell you which article gave his height at 6'1". I've been to so many now....(yikes). The height of Zimmerman was listed as 5'9" on the police report though.....and Trayvon is listed as being 6' on it. I suspect we'll continue to get conflicting stories...hehe.

And no, I wouldn't trust Wiki's info as anything more than a comparative source.

The bottom line is....Trayvon was no little kid and was in better physical shape than Zimmerman.

Did you see the pic of Zimmerman in his work attire vs. the mugshot? Quite a difference from what the media is trying to portray (as usual).

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Picture-138.png

http://www.mediaite.com/online/trayvon-martin-shooter-is-a-forensic-loan-review-analyst-and-new-details-on-george-zimmerman/

Also, you probably already have this link, but even so, I'll repost it. It's the transcript of the 911 call.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html


Oh...almost forgot. One of the posters in the comments of one of the articles mentioned that Trayvon's juvie records were sealed....meaning that he had a record. Now....I have no idea if the guy knew what he was talking about or if he was just BS'ing. So much disinformation out there, I'm taking it with a grain of that stuff that they say will kill ya.



OK, Trayvon was 160 lbs. The Martin attorneys said that George Zimmerman was 80 lbs heavier; that would make Zimmerman 240. (No wonder he got winded so easily on the tape).

Where did you get 6'1'' and 5'9''? Everything I read said Trayvon was 6'3''. And I have found no height on Zimmerman.

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 01:06 AM
TIMELINE


Before 7:00:

??? pm: Tracy Martin goes out to dinner.
??? pm: Trayvon Martin leaves the house.
??? pm: Trayvon buys Skittles & iced tea


1. Zimmerman (who is short and overweight: 5'9'' and 220-240 lbs) follows Trayvon (a 6'3'' seventeen year old of 140-160lb.) in his SUV.

He is on an errand when he spots Trayvon.


2. Just after 7:00, Zimmerman calls the non-emergency dispatch operator for Sanford PD.

The call is about 4 and a half minutes long. When asked Trayvon's race, Zimmerman says "I think he's black" but he wasn't certain because he had a hoodie on.


3. Trayvon begins to approach Zimmerman's vehicle 58 seconds into the call.

The approach is about a minute long. Zimmerman mentions the approach and that Trayvon has something in his hand:


("Now he's coming towards me" 58 secs into the tape)
("And he's a black male" 1.08 into the tape)
("He's comin' to check me out. He's got somethin' in his hands." 1.24 into the tape)

Notice that Zimmerman wasn't sure Trayvon was black until he was full face. Also notice that Zimmerman is noticeably concerned.



4. About a minute into the approach, Trayvon starts to run. Zimmerman tells the dispatcher this.

("Shit! He's running. 2.06 into the tape)



5. Zimmerman gets out of his car, still talking to the dispatcher. You can hear the bell-like sound of the open door on the vehicle and you can hear when it closes.

(Car door opening "ding". 2.10 on the tape; Car door closing, 2:14 on tape)



6. Zimmerman starts to follow Trayvon on foot. The pursuit lasts for about 25 seconds. (2:14-2:39)


Zimmerman is no runner, and he is winded (out of breath) the entire 25 seconds.

(Windedness: 2.20-2.45 on the tape)

You can hear Zimmerman getting winded immediately after he starts.

(Heavy breathing begins: 2.20)

The breathing is heavy enough to tip off the police dispatch operator that Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon.

("Are you following him?" 2.23)

It is after this that the dispatch operator tells him "We don't need you to do this." (2.26)


Ten seconds later, George seems to barely be able to get out his name:

("Sir, what is your name" 2.36)
("George" 2.37)


7. Trayvon runs completely out of sight, and George tells the dispatcher.

("He ran" 2.39)


8. Zimmerman stops running. His breathing is less heavy and he is able to talk to the dispatch operator more easily. (2.39-2.45)


9. Zimmerman agrees to meet the police officer at a given location:

("Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?" 2.55)
("Yeah" 2.57)
("at the mailboxes" 3.43)


10. Zimmerman then changes his mind

"Could you have him call me and I'll tell him where I'm at?" (3.48)


11. After the call, Zimmerman claims that he went back to his vehicle. (approx. 7:05/6 pm)

Considering that Trayvon was gone and that George could not pursue anyone on foot for any length of time, I believe him. Did Zimmerman continue to pursue him in his SUV? The address he gave to the dispatcher seems to be only about a block away from the house behind which Trayvon died, but a lot depends on the geography of the development.



12. 7:06-7:15. A second and third altercation occur. There are two areas of confrontation (Witness Mary Cutcher): on the pavement (by the street) and in the backyard (in the grass).

(A full tape of Cutcher's testimony, uncut, has been removed from youtube, and only the shorter media interviews remain.)

Zimmerman claims that Trayvon came up to his vehicle, confronted him, and attacked him. Supporting this is that the first area of confrontation was on the pavement by the street (as per Cutcher). This also squares with the wound to the back of George's head: it hit a hard surface.

How the fight got into the back is not clear. Again, Mary Cutcher's original uncut tape talked about this, but that tape has been removed from youtube.

13. 7:??-7:15: A series of 911 calls (8 neighbors) to the Sanford police.

I cannot find the time when the calls began; only that the last one was at 7:15 and that there was a gunshot around that time.

14. 7:17: Officer Timothy Smith responds to call.

Not sure what exact time he arrives, but it doesn't take long. He finds the body and George Zimmerman who is cooperative.

Trayvon's body was located between 1231 Retreat View Circle and 2821 Retreat View Circle. George originally called from 1111 Retreat View Circle. which sounds like a block away, but it's hard to tell without having a map.

15. Officer Ricardo Ayala arrives after Smith. With Sanford Fire Department paramedic, he does CPR, to no avail.

17. 7:30: Trayvon pronounced dead by paramedic.


So, as you can see, who is the aggressor is not clear. Zimmerman calls 911 and Trayvon approaches him. When Trayvon runs, Zimmerman gives chase for 25 seconds and gets winded. Zimmerman claims to go back to the SUV and claims that Trayvon approaches him at his SUV. Somehow, both young men end up on the grass. George has wounds and grass on the back of his jacket, indicating a defensive posture for at least part of the time. Witnesses report both men on the top or bottom at different points. Everyone hears a scream but only one person claims to have seen the screamer and he sees George. Mary Cutcher assumes the screamer was Trayvon, but they don't approach the fight scene until after George has shot Trayvon. George tells Mary's roommate to call the police.

Everything hinges on whether George returned to his SUV after the 911 call and whether Trayvon attacked him there. Witnesses heard the altercation but, for the most part, did not see it.

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 01:11 AM
Oh my. So the "kid" has a pattern/history of being where he isn't supposed to be.

Gee....who woulda guessed?


Would love to know what that "unauthorized area" was.

Notice how the truth keeps seeping through the lies:

1. Trayvon leaves during NBA Game (impossible) --> Tracy goes out to dinner; no clue when Trayvon leaves

2. Trayvon was on a 5-day suspension for tardies --> Trayvon was on a 10-suspension for being in an unauthorized area

3. George Zimmerman was much bigger (by 80 lbs) than Trayvon --> George is 5'9''/220-240; Trayvon 6'3''/140-160

Wait til we find out where Trayvon really was that night before George Zimmerman found him.

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 01:21 AM
At this point, I couldn't even tell you which article gave his height at 6'1". I've been to so many now....(yikes). The height of Zimmerman was listed as 5'9" on the police report though.....and Trayvon is listed as being 6' on it. I suspect we'll continue to get conflicting stories...hehe.

I've seen 6'3'' for Trayvon almost everywhere, except the police report. I'll stay with 6'3'' for now. The only height I have for George was 5'9'', and I figured awhile ago that he was under 5'11''. You know if I were the defense lawyer, I would have my second chair be a 6'3'' lawyer. He could sit next to George for the entire trial. When questions about height and weight are asked, the lawyer could just stand up and say he's 6'3''.


And no, I wouldn't trust Wiki's info as anything more than a comparative source.

Wiki has been woefully inaccurate on several points.


The bottom line is....Trayvon was no little kid and was in better physical shape than Zimmerman.

Yes. Trayvon was much taller, younger, and all muscle and bone. George was shorter, older, overweight and got easily winded. That's the real picture.



Did you see the pic of Zimmerman in his work attire vs. the mugshot? Quite a difference from what the media is trying to portray (as usual).

http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Picture-138.png

Now you know that the pic in the orange shirt was just chosen for its media effect. :friendly_wink: He looks like a likable fellow here.

Now this link:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/trayvon-martin-shooter-is-a-forensic-loan-review-analyst-and-new-details-on-george-zimmerman/

leads to here:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-23/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-job-20120323_1_robert-zimmerman-source-new-details


Two sources have confirmed to the Orlando Sentinel that Zimmerman is, or until recently was, an employee at the Maitland office of Digital Risk, LLC, a mortgage risk-management firm.

And guess what? The people at worked liked him. They agreed with Taafe about his personality.


Also, you probably already have this link, but even so, I'll repost it. It's the transcript of the 911 call.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html


Always helpful to have another version of the tape.


Oh...almost forgot. One of the posters in the comments of one of the articles mentioned that Trayvon's juvie records were sealed....meaning that he had a record. Now....I have no idea if the guy knew what he was talking about or if he was just BS'ing. So much disinformation out there, I'm taking it with a grain of that stuff that they say will kill ya.

Keep me posted if you get a good source on this.

Taylor2012
03-25-2012, 01:14 PM
Now here is an interesting thread with pictures of the "older Trayvon". I started to post what I thought was Trayvon's facebook page here, but wasn't sure it was even him, so I pulled it. Looks like others have made the same connection, however.

This from Islandgirl:


Martin's parents, attorney, and the media have expounded on the claim that Martin was a kid that went for a walk to the local convenience store to get 'candy' during halftime of an NBA game. But yesterday, People magazine had an interview with the father that blows holes in that story. I quote from the story below:

In the story, Tracy Martin states:

"I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

The next morning, when he woke up, Tracy realized that Trayvon had not returned home. "I started making calls, and I reached my nephew," Martin says. "He said he hadn't seen Trayvon. Then I really started getting worried. So I called the Sheriff's department to file a missing persons report. I let them know it hadn't been 24 hours, but it was unusual for Trayvon not to return home."

Three police cars soon pulled up and a detective asked Tracy for a recent picture of his son. "I had one on my phone, so I showed it to him," Tracy says, his voice tightening. "He told me he was going to show me a photo and ask if it was my son. He pulled out a photo of Trayvon's dead body. And the nightmare began."

http://www.people.com/peo...ticle/0,,20581404,00.html

So...if the father came home and Martin was gone, and he claims to have made calls looking for him, how does anyone know that Martin went to the store to get candy? Where did the "went to the store to get candy" story come from?

This opens up the possibility that Martin was indeed a kid wandering aimlessly around the complex at night, doing God knows what. I'm not saying one doesn't have the right to walk around a complex at night, but it does change the possibility of motives on Martin's end.

Also, I am unable to find a convenience store near the apartment complex. His parents claim he went to 7-11, but the nearest 7-11 is a couple of miles away. Not exactly a brief walk one would make during a halftime game. Using google maps, I am unable to find a convenience store anywhere near by, but I could be missing it.



http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,70888.0.html


Keep me posted if you get a good source on this.

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 01:30 PM
The People link isn't working right. I get a "Page not here" message.

Second, BLESS the CAVE!!!!

Here are the pics we've been looking for.

NOW who's intimidating???


http://i.imgur.com/efT0w.jpg

http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/Islandgirl44/Truthinpictures.jpg


( I hope the Cave is ok with me copying these.)

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 01:32 PM
From Conservative Cave:


So...if the father came home and Martin was gone, and he claims to have made calls looking for him, how does anyone know that Martin went to the store to get candy? Where did the "went to the store to get candy" story come from?

This opens up the possibility that Martin was indeed a kid wandering aimlessly around the complex at night, doing God knows what. I'm not saying one doesn't have the right to walk around a complex at night, but it does change the possibility of motives on Martin's end.

Not to pat myself on the back, but wasn't I saying this DAYS ago? Does it take People Magazine for folks to see things? You know anybody can fact check.

SarasotaRepub
03-25-2012, 05:16 PM
All the MSM and Loon Libs want to hear is "Poor black child killed by ebil person who might as well be white." :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 09:51 PM
Take this one with a grain of salt, but it's an interesting read nonetheless:

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2012/03/why-was-trayvon-martin-photo-altered.html

As Media Reports Conflict, Why Was Trayvon Martin Photo Altered?


Among a few interesting items uncovered in trying to examine the facts behind the shooting of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin without drawing any conclusions, was that a widely viewed photograph of Martin appears to have been altered, somewhat.

Here is what appears to be the original via the Miami Herald.


http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/03/22/23/22/5vSyO.Em.56.jpg


The one below has been observed in the media and at forums such as Democracy Now. Clearly, it has been lightened, or softened, somehow. Along with other possible alterations, he looks far more, perhaps innocent is the right word, in the altered image. For the record, that has nothing to do with the guilt, or innocence, of anyone involved, but more to do with the reporting of the story, which is why I'm bringing it up.




http://www.jpattitude.com/IHTM/TrayvonMartin_DoctoredPhoto.jpg




(Just to check, I went to the original Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2708960/trayvon-martin-a-typical-teen.html He's right about that photo. Retouching is not unusual, and is more the rule than the exception in the media.

Taylor2012
03-25-2012, 10:14 PM
He looks like a thug. And that was even a younger photo.

No wonder they doctored it....lol.


Take this one with a grain of salt, but it's an interesting read nonetheless:

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2012/03/why-was-trayvon-martin-photo-altered.html

As Media Reports Conflict, Why Was Trayvon Martin Photo Altered?



(Just to check, I went to the original Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2708960/trayvon-martin-a-typical-teen.html He's right about that photo. Retouching is not unusual, and is more the rule than the exception in the media.

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 10:15 PM
Is it true that attorneys for the family have blocked access to Trayvon's school records? I'd love to get a good source on that.

Also, Tracy Martin lived about 250 miles from his son. (about a 4 1/2 to 5 hour drive)
http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/US_Distance_Result.asp?state=FL&statename=Florida&fromplace=Miami%20%28Miami-Dade%20County%29&toplace=Sanford%20%28Seminole%20County%29&fromlat=25.7742658&tolat=28.7586055&fromlng=-80.1936589&tolng=-81.2942327


250 miles is the equivalent of the drive from Washington DC to New York City. For some reason, I don't imagine that Tracy Martin saw his son much. I also think it's odd that he leaves his 17-year old son alone in a strange house (girlfriend's) in a neighborhood he doesn't know so the father can go to dinner with the girlfriend. And he wasn't alarmed when Trayvon wasn't home when he got back from dinner?

This "father" gets more and more inexplicable as time goes on.

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 11:09 PM
NAACP’s CEO: The Gun Law Not To Blame In Trayvon Martin Death

http://content.bitsontherun.com/previews/zzrWTwGH-dh3Zgtip

So Zimmerman is the target, not the law. NAACP and the NRA are together on this.

Taylor2012
03-25-2012, 11:42 PM
I keep reading that his juvie records were sealed. They don't bother to seal those records unless there is something bad in them.

Here's an interesting freeper thread on the issue:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2863782/posts

Note the thuggish Myspace pic....and that his twitter nic was "“@NO_LIMIT_NIGGA".






Is it true that attorneys for the family have blocked access to Trayvon's school records? I'd love to get a good source on that.

Also, Tracy Martin lived about 250 miles from his son. (about a 4 1/2 to 5 hour drive)
http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/US_Distance_Result.asp?state=FL&statename=Florida&fromplace=Miami%20%28Miami-Dade%20County%29&toplace=Sanford%20%28Seminole%20County%29&fromlat=25.7742658&tolat=28.7586055&fromlng=-80.1936589&tolng=-81.2942327


250 miles is the equivalent of the drive from Washington DC to New York City. For some reason, I don't imagine that Tracy Martin saw his son much. I also think it's odd that he leaves his 17-year old son alone in a strange house (girlfriend's) in a neighborhood he doesn't know so the father can go to dinner with the girlfriend. And he wasn't alarmed when Trayvon wasn't home when he got back from dinner?

This "father" gets more and more inexplicable as time goes on.

nightflight
03-25-2012, 11:46 PM
Since brown is now the new white, will the SPLC list La Raza as a white supremacist group? Will those who argue against *illegal* immigration no longer be called "racists"?

Elspeth
03-25-2012, 11:52 PM
I keep reading that his juvie records were sealed. They don't bother to seal those records unless there is something bad in them.

Here's an interesting freeper thread on the issue:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2863782/posts

Note the thuggish Myspace pic....and that his twitter nic was "“@NO_LIMIT_NIGGA".

Juvie records don't get sealed until you are 18, right? Or maybe the family attorneys have blocked both the juvie and school records.

Myspace?? Really? I thought nobody used Myspace anymore.

And more on Zimmerman:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE82O0F820120325


George Zimmerman, who has claimed he shot Trayvon Martin on February 26 in self-defense, is staying at an undisclosed location after widely circulated death threats and word of a $10,000 bounty to find him, said legal adviser Craig Sonner, who said he would represent Zimmerman if charges are filed...

....Friends of Zimmerman, who has not spoken to the media, said he was extremely upset about the shooting.

"I mean, he took a man's life and he has no idea what to do about it. He's extremely remorseful about it," said his friend Joe Oliver.

"What makes all these people who are threatening George any better than the person they think he is?" he added. "You've got all these people wanting to lynch the man, and they don't know the whole story.

"There are huge gaps that are being filled in and interpreted without evidence," he said.


AND

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-friend-idUSBRE82O0FE20120325

Black friend defends shooter of Florida teen


"He couldn't stop crying. He's a caring human being," Joe Oliver, 53, a former television news reporter and anchor in Orlando who has known Zimmerman for several years, told Reuters in a telephone interview....

...."I'm a black male and all that I know is that George has never given me any reason whatsoever to believe he has anything against people of color," Oliver said.

noonwitch
03-26-2012, 08:56 AM
Juvie records don't get sealed until you are 18, right? Or maybe the family attorneys have blocked both the juvie and school records.



Juvenile records are sealed when the child's time of supervision is completed, unless the crime is a felony. So if a kid gets juvenile probation at age 12 for shoplifting or some other misdemeanor, sentenced to 6 months probation and restitution, completes it all in 6 months with no further violations, the record might be expunged well before the 18th birthday.

Taylor2012
03-26-2012, 12:02 PM
I also read somewhere that Zimmerman has blacks in his family. Don't know the relationship, but still.....looks like the charges of his racism are mere political ploys.

If these ramping up efforts by radicals work to harm Zimmerman, it's going to really get nasty. I'm afraid that "tit-for-tat" scenario might ensue. Of course, I think that is exactly what Obama and his radical ilk want to happen.



Juvie records don't get sealed until you are 18, right? Or maybe the family attorneys have blocked both the juvie and school records.

Myspace?? Really? I thought nobody used Myspace anymore.

And more on Zimmerman:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE82O0F820120325



AND

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-friend-idUSBRE82O0FE20120325

Black friend defends shooter of Florida teen

Taylor2012
03-26-2012, 12:04 PM
If the radical left manages to bring charges against Zimmerman and this goes to court, Trayvon's records would be unsealed as evidence by the defense. I am betting those that know the facts and history of Trayvon will not want that to happen.


Juvenile records are sealed when the child's time of supervision is completed, unless the crime is a felony. So if a kid gets juvenile probation at age 12 for shoplifting or some other misdemeanor, sentenced to 6 months probation and restitution, completes it all in 6 months with no further violations, the record might be expunged well before the 18th birthday.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Juvenile records are sealed when the child's time of supervision is completed, unless the crime is a felony. So if a kid gets juvenile probation at age 12 for shoplifting or some other misdemeanor, sentenced to 6 months probation and restitution, completes it all in 6 months with no further violations, the record might be expunged well before the 18th birthday.

Thank you.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 01:37 PM
If the radical left manages to bring charges against Zimmerman and this goes to court, Trayvon's records would be unsealed as evidence by the defense. I am betting those that know the facts and history of Trayvon will not want that to happen.

Then perhaps it won't go to an actual trial. What you'll get instead is a Justice Dept. "Civil Rights violation" trial, where Holder's people and Zimmerman's attorneys will argue endlessly over whether he said "goon" or "coon." I get shades of the Rodney King cops and the "Civil Rights" trial, which convicted and imprisoned them when the criminal trial didn't.

I don't think Obama wants a real criminal trial in Florida. I think he wants to appear to be the "savior" of Black America and that can only really be done at the Federal level. Remember, this is all about getting him re-elected so he can finish the job that his minders want him to do.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 02:06 PM
A note on George's race:

The official goverment definition of Hispanic:



http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards

-- Hispanic or Latino. A person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race. The term, "Spanish origin," can be used in addition to "Hispanic or Latino."

The term "Hispanic" refers to persons who trace their origin or descent to Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Central and South America, and other Spanish cultures. While there has been considerable public concern about the need to review Directive No. 15 with respect to classifying individuals of mixed racial heritage, there has been little comment on reporting both an Hispanic and a non-Hispanic origin. On many Federal forms, Hispanics can also express a racial identity on a separate race question. In the decennial census, individuals who consider themselves part Hispanic can also indicate additional heritages in the ancestry question....In the meantime, the ancestry question on the decennial census long form does provide respondents who consider themselves part Hispanic to write in additional heritages.




Clear as mud, eh?

Essentially, anyone born in any Spanish-speaking country or culture can identify as Hispanic or Latino, according to the law. This is not necessarily an implication about race.

This reminds me of talk-show host Bill Handel (KFI, Los Angeles) who referred to himself as the "Latino Jew". He was of Polish heritage; most of his family died in the Holocaust, but his dad was hidden from the Nazis by the Catholic Church. After the war, his dad fled to Brazil and Bill was born there. The family moved to the US when he was 11. According to current US law, then, Bill Handel is a Latino (or Hispanic), a fact which greatly amused him; he even had a song written about it.

After identifying as Hispanic or Latino, one can further identify racially: black, white, Asian (there are lots of ethnic Japanese in Brazil), Native American (or Indian).

I find this fascinating. This definition of Hispanic is actually a 1997 revision of previous designations. Earlier definitions indeed implied "Hispanic" as a race. That's what most of us older folk remember.

So the term "White Hispanic", or more properly "Hispanic-White" since the birthplace would come first and the racial designation second, implies someone like Bill Handel, who is of South American origin but of European (white) heritage.

It would NOT necessarily properly denote George Zimmerman; that would greatly depend on his mother's origins. If his mother, Gladys, is of strictly Spanish (European) descent, then it would. But, if Gladys is part Indian (mestizo) or part Black, then George would be Hispanic: Mixed race, or a Mixed-Race-Hispanic.

Judging from what we know about his family (cousins, etc.), I'm placing my bets on Mixed-Race-Hispanic.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 03:11 PM
I've lost track: Let's just say:

#28. Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head(!!!) (That's impossible!!111!!!)

More fun from the DUmmies as the evidence comes out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=473286


Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head(!!!) [View all]

Last edited Mon Mar 26, 2012, 11:26 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.
<snip>
In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.
<snip>
He was visiting his father's fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.
<snip>

MUCH MORE:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager

Never heard the marijuana claim before.
A very different story.....
And a self-serving one. Surprised? NOT!


Where to start, where to start.

OK, let's do the obvious: MARIJUANA!


Now the 2-week suspension is starting to make sense.
Now Mama sending Trayvon to Daddy, 250 miles away (from his drug connections) during his suspension is starting to make sense.
Now the rumors of a juvie record are starting to make sense
Even the badass Facebook photos are starting to make sense.



:cool::cool::cool:

Now let's look at George:

For people who don't remember my analysis of the phone call and the timeline:

http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?48179-Timeline-thread-Trayvon-Martin-Stand-your-ground

Now let's look at the Sentinel's version: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager



Zimmerman called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

(Note from Elspeth: listen to the breathing patterns on the tapes. George was far too winded to follow Trayvon on foot.)

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Note: This would account for the injury to the back of George's head.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there's been a dispute about from whom they came: Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witnesses, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest from very close range, according to authorities.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

Paramedics gave him first aid, but he said no to going to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.


Put that together with the evidence from George's call to non-emergency dispatch and the fact that:


George was some distance from Trayvon when he made the call. (He couldn't see Trayvon's face nor tell what race he was for sure.
During the call, Trayvon approached Zimmerman for a solid minute
After a minute, Trayvon ran away, it's still unclear why.
George gets out of his SUV
For 25 seconds, George pursues Trayvon; he gets winded right away. George is 5'9'' and 220-240
Trayvon is out of George's sight. ("He ran")
After this, George's breathing slows down and returns to normal. He cannot have been walking or running very fast.
George gives the police his name, address, etc. with trepidation. He is worried that Trayvon is still somewhere there watching.
George agrees to meet with the police at mailboxes, and then he changes his mind, asking if he can call the officer, who can meet him "where he's at." This indicates that George was planning on moving the SUV, whether to pursue Martin or get away from him is unclear.


Read the timeline at the link above for the exact time on these events.

Afterwards, according to George, he returns to his SUV (highly probable--he can't realistically physically pursue Trayvon and he has demonstrated fear of him.) Then Trayvon attacks him.

My bet--were this the Santa Anita racetrack--would be "No Criminal Trial" (2-1 odds). The more that comes out about Trayvon's criminal behavior (and MJ is still criminal in Florida), the less likely a criminal trial is. Even if the NRA abandons Zimmerman, Trayvon is looking less and less sympathetic and more like a thug.

However, I am betting heavily on "Justice Department Witch Hunt" and "Conviction on 'Civil Rights' violation" (using the term "coon", if that indeed is really on the tape and has not been doctored after the fact. Remember, Trayvon's family's own attorney backed off from that tape on Politics Nation with Al Sharpton.)





http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager
The Department of Justice last week opened a civil rights investigation into what happened, and Gov. Rick Scott appointed a special prosecutor.

Gentleman Pirate
03-26-2012, 03:17 PM
OK, let's do the obvious: MARIJUANA!

Now the 2-week suspension is starting to make sense.
Now Mama sending Trayvon to Daddy, 250 miles away (from his drug connections) during his suspension is starting to make sense.
Now the rumors of a juvie record are starting to make sense
Even the badass Facebook photos are starting to make sense.


"The family has said, 'what does that have to do with him (Zimmerman) killing my son? What does it matter?'" Crump said. "It's completely irrelevant what Trayvon Martin was suspended for on Feb. 26."


Who cares about Trayvon's use of marijuana? I mean really.. If he got suspended because of marijuana, it still doesn't have anything to do with why George shot him and if it was above and beyond his self defense claim...

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 03:38 PM
#29. Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun (This can't be right !!11!!!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002473511


Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239

George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him.

The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.

In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

Well, my, my. my.

Two witnesses now who saw an attacked George Zimmerman: the evil white neighbor from Fox news (:nono: and (sniff) the 13-year-old African American boy :mad-new:

Damn! DU must be dying in pain! :biggrin-new:

Second, if Trayvon went for the gun (and that's a big if) then self defense is justified even without the Stand Your Ground law, I would imagine. Gun owners, anyone know?

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 04:00 PM
From the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" file:

#30. I'm detecting that the media is beginning to change the Trayvon Martin case narrative. (They can't do this!!! Trayvon is the only only victim!!111!!! He never hurt nobody!!111)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002474038


WI_DEM (27,503 posts)


I'm detecting that the media is beginning to change the Trayvon Martin case narrative

Last edited Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:20 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

to begin to TRY and elicit sympathy or at least understanding as to why George Zimmerman felt THREATENED and felt HE needed to need to defend himself by KILLING an unarmed teenager.

To me this change in the media narrative makes no difference at all. Trayvon was unarmed. He wasn't committing any crimes and was walking back to the place he was staying, and talking with his girlfriend on his cell phone. Neighborhood goon George Zimmerman saw another black person who he didn't feel should be walking the streets of his neighborhood and decided to pursue him even when 911 told him not to. So what if Zimmerman was bloodied up--Trayvon felt that he was defending himself from a stalker. End of story--Zimmerman should be arrested.

OK DUmmy,

Let's teach you some facts:

1. The teen was 6'3'', 140-160 lbs. He easily outran the pudgy Zimmerman (5'9'', 240, 28-yrs old).

2. You can hear Fact #1 on the NON-EMERGENCY police dispatch tape. (Not 911. Can we just learn that?)

3. The change in the media narrative is based on the emergence of facts: 2 witnesses (1 African American teen and one old white guy), Zimmerman's real injuries, and Trayvon's 10-day suspension for pot. The Media isn't changing the narrative: the facts are.

4. "Neighborhood goon George Zimmerman" :biggrin-new:

5. "George Zimmerman saw another black person who he didn't feel should be walking the streets of his neighborhood ".

No, dear heart. Zimmerman saw a tall, teenager whose race he could not tell for sure, and whom he did not recognize ambling around looking at things, like houses. This was a neighborhood that had a lot of crime, and the neighbors were all on edge. Trayvon's actions in that context were suspicious. Zimmerman had every right to call the cops.

6. "and decided to pursue him even when 911 told him not to."

OK, not 911. (See #2). And if you listen to the tape, you can hear that George only pursues for 25 seconds. He's pudgy. He gets winded. The police dispatch hears this heavy breathing. He says "We don't need you to do that [pursue]". After that 25 seconds, Zimmerman's breathing begins to return to normal. Trayvon had disappeared by that time. The only reasonable explanation that fits the facts is that George STOPPED pursuing Trayvon. He couldn't keep up.

7."Trayvon felt that he was defending himself from a stalker. End of story"

Trayvon approached Zimmerman for a solid minute--4 times longer than Zimmerman pursued him later. (You can hear that on the tape.) Was he really afraid of a stalker? Or was he concerned that some guy in an SUV had observed him and was calling the cops?

After a minute, Trayvon decided to run. Why he did is anyone's guess. Maybe he listened to his girlfriend. Or maybe he knew Zimmerman was on the phone with the cops. You do know that Trayvon was suspended for drugs. You know that his dad (Tracy Martin) called the police on Monday morning "to see if he had been arrested". You do the math.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 07:06 PM
As information starts leaking out about Trayvon Martin's suspension, drugs, and possible record:

Black leaders press Sanford City Council to go on the record about whether or not Zimmerman should be arrested.

Or, as the Orlando Sentinel puts it:



Trayvon Martin: Crowd presses city commissioners to say Zimmerman should be arrested

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-jesse-jackson-city-council-20120326_1_civil-rights-justice-department-sanford-leaders


SANFORD — Speaker [sic], one after the next, in a packed Sanford Civic Center, have pressed city council members to say — for the record — whether they believe George Zimemrman should be arrested for the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

"Go on the record today in support of the arrest of George Zimmmerman," said Marc Morial, president of the National Urban League.

The Rev. Al Sharpton told Sanford leaders tonight that the city risked a reputation as a place where the civil rights of black people are trampled if it did not take action in the Trayvon Martin case.

"You are risking going down as the Birmingham and Selma of the 21st century," Sharpton said at the Sanford Civic Center, which is packed with hundreds of people.




And the City Council is risking the New Black Panthers at their door and a media character assassination like none they have ever seen.

This is no more and no less than blackmail.

RedGrouse
03-26-2012, 08:03 PM
George Zimmerman, Killer of Trayvon Martin, was a Democrat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WazO6uAiZJs&feature=player_embedded

Taylor2012
03-26-2012, 09:38 PM
Uh oh. Now THAT one is gonna leave a mark....lol!

On top of not actually being a "white guy".....he's also a Dem. Wonders never cease.



George Zimmerman, Killer of Trayvon Martin, was a Democrat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WazO6uAiZJs&feature=player_embedded

Taylor2012
03-26-2012, 09:41 PM
I think you're right. Obama is trying to rally the troops and get the ....ah.....er......."natives" restless enough to vote for him en masse this November, since polls show he has lost a bit of that advantage.

Problem is.....this will all be ancient history by then, unless Obama zombies can keep this issue alive and flaming until then. I don't think they can. Not with all of the other issues, much more critical to America, looming.


Then perhaps it won't go to an actual trial. What you'll get instead is a Justice Dept. "Civil Rights violation" trial, where Holder's people and Zimmerman's attorneys will argue endlessly over whether he said "goon" or "coon." I get shades of the Rodney King cops and the "Civil Rights" trial, which convicted and imprisoned them when the criminal trial didn't.

I don't think Obama wants a real criminal trial in Florida. I think he wants to appear to be the "savior" of Black America and that can only really be done at the Federal level. Remember, this is all about getting him re-elected so he can finish the job that his minders want him to do.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 09:56 PM
Problem is.....this will all be ancient history by then, unless Obama zombies can keep this issue alive and flaming until then. I don't think they can. Not with all of the other issues, much more critical to America, looming.

I don't know. Racial issues have a long shelf life--and a long half life. All they need is a trial.

Remember OJ Simpson. Remember how Americans were at each other's throats over a very simple case of murder, complete with blood and DNA. The case would have been plea-bargained with any other defendant. But a "Dream Team" racializes it, and suddenly the case is no longer straightforward. OJ became retribution for Rodney King. (Even though the riots were retribution for Rodney King, but that's another story.)

They will get a trial of some kind. It is possible that George will even be exonerated--if it's a criminal trial. (Even in California, a jury will forgive you for defending yourself with deadly force against someone who is beating the shit out of you.) I think it far more likely that they will go to a Justice Department probe with a special prosecutor, because, after all, the government has sooooo much money to spend.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 10:12 PM
Uh oh. Now THAT one is gonna leave a mark....lol!

On top of not actually being a "white guy".....he's also a Dem. Wonders never cease.

Here's something else that will leave a mark:


Former NAACP leader accuses Sharpton and Jackson of ‘exploiting’ Trayvon Martin

Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.”

“His family should be outraged at the fact that they’re using this child as the bait to inflame racial passions,” Rev. C.L. Bryant said in a Monday interview with The Daily Caller.

The conservative black pastor who was once the chapter president of the Garland, Texas NAACP called Jackson and Sharpton “race hustlers” and said they are “acting as though they are buzzards circling the carcass of this young boy.”

......Bryant said he wishes civil rights leaders were protesting those problems.

“Why not be angry about the wholesale murder that goes on in the streets of Newark and Chicago?” he asked. “Why isn’t somebody angry about that six-year-old girl who was killed on her steps last weekend in a cross fire when two gang members in Chicago start shooting at each other? Why is there no outrage about that?”

Bryant said he worries that “people like Sharpton and those on the left” will make Martin’s death a campaign issue in the presidential race.

He speculated that they will “turn this evolving tragedy of this young man into fodder to say… if you don’t re-elect Obama then you will have unbridled events or circumstances like this happening in the streets to young men wearing hoodies.”

He also criticized President Obama for his “nebulous statement” responding to Martin’s death that “if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

“What does that mean?” Bryant asked. “What was the purpose in that?”


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/#ixzz1qHNWSNjd

Rockntractor
03-26-2012, 10:35 PM
The Florida attn General has assigned a new prosecuting attorney to the case, I guess if they don't get the desired outcome they will assign another and then another.

Elspeth
03-26-2012, 10:45 PM
The Florida attn General has assigned a new prosecuting attorney to the case, I guess if they don't get the desired outcome they will assign another and then another.

They're gonna destroy this man, aren't they.

For an election.

They need the trial, they need racial animus. They need blacks at the polls.

Rockntractor
03-26-2012, 10:50 PM
They're gonna destroy this man, aren't they.

For an election.

They need the trial, they need racial animus. They need blacks at the polls.

They will find a prosecuting attorney that will press charges, if not the fed will press charges. If the Florida courts do not find him guilty the feds will fabricate charges if need be, .
And then there are civil charges they can file.
He may as well put a gun to his head for he is this years scape goat for Americas supposed racial crimes.

Hawkgirl
03-26-2012, 11:22 PM
He may as well put a gun to his head for he is this years scape goat for Americas supposed racial crimes.


I think it will backfire on them. Whites are sick of being labeled racists. Obama didn't win because of the black vote only, they are still a minority block if you exclude big cities like NY and LA. He still needs the white vote to win. His racial stunts will backfire on him.

Rockntractor
03-26-2012, 11:31 PM
I think it will backfire on them. Whites are sick of being labeled racists. Obama didn't win because of the black vote only, they are still a minority block if you exclude big cities like NY and LA. He still needs the white vote to win. His racial stunts will backfire on him.

I would have liked to think so but when I noticed that Fox was playing along with the whole game I knew it was over.
It could work against Obama in the election but they are going to sacrifice this guy.

Hawkgirl
03-26-2012, 11:48 PM
Zimmerman's account being released...

"According to what Zimmerman told local officers, he lost sight of the teen and was returning to his SUV when Martin approached him and they exchanged words. He said Martin asked if he had a problem, Zimmerman replied no and reached for his cell phone. He then alleges that Martin said "well you do now" and punched him in the nose."

Zimmerman said he then fell to the ground and Martin got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. Zimmerman said he began yelling for help.

An individual can be heard screaming on the 911 audio, however, there's been a dispute amongst witnesses as to whether it was Zimmerman or Martin who was crying for help.

According to authorities, Zimmerman then shot Martin at close range. When the local police arrived at the scene, they found Zimmerman with a bloody nose, swollen lip and lacerations in the back of his head. Although paramedics gave him first aid, he said he did not need to go to the hospital and sought medical treatment the next day.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/26/trayvon-martin-case-georg_n_1381322.html?1332811474&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D146779

So von Martin wasn't carrying a gun, but he did, in fact, assault Zimmerman.

Elspeth
03-27-2012, 12:23 AM
I'm still trying to figure out how they got to the back yard, but part of that is the geography of the subdivision.

The police report made it clear that George had injuries. If you listen to the tape, you can see how scared George was to give his name and address to the cop. He was afraid Trayvon was hidden somewhere and would hear it. Of course, now Spike Lee has put Zimmerman's address all over the net. Bastard!


Edited to add:

Audio analysis of the "f***ing *oons" tape will be done by the FBI at Quantico (CNN).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002476136

It's from the DUmp, but that sounds about right.


They're going to torture this poor guy.

Taylor2012
03-28-2012, 12:21 PM
Well....Hannity seems to be backing off of his earlier stupidity and knee-jerk reaction against Zimmerman. But it's a little late, as far as I'm concerned. If Fox News's people are going to go along with the leftist media bent on every issue...even before the facts are known....I'm done with Fox News.


I would have liked to think so but when I noticed that Fox was playing along with the whole game I knew it was over.
It could work against Obama in the election but they are going to sacrifice this guy.

Elspeth
03-28-2012, 12:29 PM
Well....Hannity seems to be backing off of his earlier stupidity and knee-jerk reaction against Zimmerman. But it's a little late, as far as I'm concerned. If Fox News's people are going to go along with the leftist media bent on every issue...even before the facts are known....I'm done with Fox News.

Hannity, like all other television personalities, isn't good at math or facts. In fact, most journalist types aren't. They are word and emotion people only.

All Hannity--or any of them--has to do is listen to the police tapes and make a timeline, and then add in the info about each male's height and weight. The case makes itself.

But no, the press must have its race orgasm. They're letting Weird Al Sharpton stroke their gonads and get them off.

Taylor2012
03-28-2012, 12:32 PM
The Democrats need to fire up the black base for this November's election. Polls show that many blacks have "left the plantation" due to Obama not doing 'enough' for them re: freebies. Any issue will be seized upon and used by them from now until the election. Count on it.


I think it will backfire on them. Whites are sick of being labeled racists. Obama didn't win because of the black vote only, they are still a minority block if you exclude big cities like NY and LA. He still needs the white vote to win. His racial stunts will backfire on him.

Taylor2012
03-28-2012, 12:37 PM
Like I said, the leftists/Democrats need to fire up the black base and keep them fired up for the election this year. This is just one issue that they'll use. And don't underestimate Obama's ability to come up with a major "October surprise". I don't put anything past him and his ilk.

But when people like Hannity start enabling the leftists, I'm done with them. Where is the outrage over this now 'one million dollar bounty' put on Zimmerman by the NBPP? Haven't heard a word of denouncement. Gutless wonder PC idiots won't save America from the fate that Obama leftists will doom us to. We need real leaders...Reaganesque-type leaders. I just don't happen to see one.



Hannity, like all other television personalities, isn't good at math or facts. In fact, most journalist types aren't. They are word and emotion people only.

All Hannity--or any of them--has to do is listen to the police tapes and make a timeline, and then add in the info about each male's height and weight. The case makes itself.

But no, the press must have its race orgasm. They're letting Weird Al Sharpton stroke their gonads and get them off.

Taylor2012
03-28-2012, 01:12 PM
Exactly!


They're gonna destroy this man, aren't they.

For an election.

They need the trial, they need racial animus. They need blacks at the polls.

Elspeth
07-07-2012, 07:15 PM
Trayvon Timeline by the writer Jack Cashill, famous for demonstrating the links between Bill Ayer's writing and Obama's memoir. If you've heard of "Sizzurp", this is gonna be an eye-opener.

Great article!


What the Media Chose Not to Know about Trayvon Martin
Jack Cashill
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/what_the_media_choose_not_to_know_about_trayvon.ht ml

"...The media's willful ignorance was on display again this past week. In reporting this news of George Zimmerman's return to jail, more than a few media outlets showed the dangerously deceptive image of Trayvon as 11-year-old cherub. They did so in the assumption that the narrative was still theirs to control. It is not. The blogs, which have been doing the real detective work on this case, have long since taken control away from them.

The sites I have found most useful are the Daily Caller and theconservativetreehouse.com. What follows is largely culled from those sites and their independent contributors. By probing Trayon's background and parsing his social media chatter, they have put together a picture of a disturbed young man that begins to makes sense of the events that unfolded on that fateful rainy night of February 26.


6:21
Trayvon Martin is seen on the security video through the 7-11 window approaching the store from the direction of the Retreat at Twin Lakes. He had been staying there at the townhouse of his father's girlfriend, Brandy Green. In major media accounts, the helpful Trayvon ventured out in the rain in a mile-plus round trip to buy Brandy's 14-year-old son, Chad, some Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea. Not likely.

6:22
Trayvon, with his hoodie up, grabs two items from the shelves of 7-11. One is the Skittles. The other is Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail. The media avoid the name of the real drink -- possibly because of the racial implications of the word "watermelon," but possibly to avoid probing the real reason for Trayon's trip.

Trayvon, in fact, had become a devotee of the druggy concoction known as "Lean," also known in southern hip-hop culture as "Sizzurp" and "Purple Drank." Lean consists of three basic ingredients -- codeine, a soft drink, and candy. If his Facebook postings are to be believed, Trayvon had been using Lean since at least June 2011.

On June 27, 2011, Trayvon asks a friend online, "unow a connect for codien?" He tells the friend that "robitussin nd soda" could make "some fire ass lean." He says, "I had it before" and that he wants "to make some more." On the night of February 26, if Brandy had some Robitussin at home, Trayvon had just bought the mixings for one "fire ass lean" cocktail.


6:23
Trayvon pays for his purchases. He then appears to point to an item behind the counter, but the clerk seems to reject that option. Trayvon turns from the counter with a couple of dollar bills still in his hand.

6:24
Trayvon leaves the 7-11, but we do not see him walk in front of the store window back towards Brandy's home.

6:25
Three squirrely young men enter the 7-11, all of them with their faces concealed in part or in full. The clerk had to have been nervous. One of the three (Curly) takes off his hat and shakes out his long, curly dark hair. He is likely either white or Hispanic, or, like Zimmerman, a "white Hispanic."

6:27
Curly appears to be holding the two bills Trayvon walked out with. He approaches the clerk and buys two cheap cigars from behind the counter and then a third one as an afterthought.

6:28
Curly is the first of three to exit. The others will follow in a minute.

6:29
Trayvon, turning as he walks, can be seen through the window heading back towards the Retreat at Twin Lakes and Brandy's house.


7:09
Zimmerman calls police while watching Trayvon near the gated community's clubhouse, less than a half-mile from the 7-11. According to "Dee-Dee," the girl Trayvon was periodically talking to on his cell phone, he was ducking in out of the rain. She also said he put his hoodie up for the same reason. In fact, though, Trayvon had his hoodie up inside the 7-11, and he was walking in the rain when Zimmerman spotted him. The walk to this point should have taken 10 minutes.

It took 40 minutes. Some background may help explain why. Earlier that same month, Trayvon had been caught at school holding a bag with marijuana residue and a marijuana pipe. He was suspended for the third time that school year, this time for ten days. Trayvon may have been dealing as well. As one online friend had communicated earlier, "Damn were u at a ****** need a plant."

Trayvon was partial to "blunts," street slang for cannabis rolled with the tobacco-leaf wrapper from an inexpensive cigar called a "blunt." As a tribute after his death, one friend posted online a photo of a homemade badge honoring Trayvon positioned next to a blunt.

It seems altogether possible that Curly bought at least one of those cigars for the under-aged Trayvon and took those visible dollar bills as payment. Trayvon waited five minutes outside the 7-11 and did not leave until after Curly came out. In the 40 minutes before Zimmerman spotted him, Trayvon could have scraped the tobacco out of the cigar, replaced it with marijuana, and smoked his blunt....


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/what_the_media_choose_not_to_know_about_trayvon.ht ml#ixzz1zyuqWno5

Adam Wood
07-07-2012, 11:18 PM
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/what_the_media_choose_not_to_know_about_trayvon.ht ml#ixzz1zyuqWno5Good article. He misconstrues one point, though: the presence of THC in Martin's system is very, very minimal in the autopsy report. Had he actually just smoked a blunt, much more THC would be showing in his system at the time of the autopsy.

I doubt that he actually smoked said blunt. My guess is that he had a nickel bag on him and he instead traded a bit of weed in order to let the other guys get their blunt, and instead he was to get the codeine needed to make up his sizzurp.

Elspeth
07-08-2012, 12:11 AM
Good article. He misconstrues one point, though: the presence of THC in Martin's system is very, very minimal in the autopsy report. Had he actually just smoked a blunt, much more THC would be showing in his system at the time of the autopsy.

I doubt that he actually smoked said blunt. My guess is that he had a nickel bag on him and he instead traded a bit of weed in order to let the other guys get their blunt, and instead he was to get the codeine needed to make up his sizzurp.

I never saw the toxicology information. Is there a link?

Elspeth
07-09-2012, 01:13 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0707/George-Zimmerman-the-Constitution-and-the-shifting-politics-of-self-defense


George Zimmerman, the Constitution, and the shifting politics of self-defense
George Zimmerman’s lawyer says at the heart of the Trayvon Martin murder case lies a constitutional prerogative: The right of Americans to carry guns and use them in self-defense. Is he right?

...Mark O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, wrote that donors have been lining up for several reasons – that he’s been unfairly treated by the media, that he’s been falsely labeled a racist, and that donors, if they were in a similar position, would likely have done the same thing.

But in making an appeal for more funds, Mr. O’Mara also suggested on Friday that many Americans have given because they feel “this case is an affront to their constitutional rights,” namely the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms....

...“People … are definitely thinking and talking about it,” Terrence Mayfield, 61, a Florida gun permit holder, told the New York Times a few weeks before the latest bond hearing. “This whole thing rests on who threw the first punch. Either the gun saved Zimmerman’s life or we had a cowboy, someone who thought because he had a gun things could escalate.”...

But after the state, 44 days after the shooting, decided to charge Zimmerman with second-degree murder, evidence began to emerge showing glaring injuries sustained by Zimmerman to his head and face. While even Judge Lester this week called Zimmerman manipulative, evidence shows he did pass a non-admissible “stress test” that suggested he was telling the truth when he said he feared for his life.

Zimmerman, who was heavier but shorter than Trayvon, has also stated he thought Trayvon was an adult, and that he wasn’t sure if he was armed or not. He said he reached for his 9 mm handgun after he believed Trayvon was going for it.

In late May, a Rasmussen poll found that 40 percent of Americans believed Zimmerman acted in self-defense while 24 percent believe it was murder.

...Yet as concerns about Constitutional gun rights swirl around Zimmerman’s defense, the case itself may have sparked more than debate, and may have inspired more Americans to actually use guns to protect themselves and their property, suggests University of Georgia emeritus law professor Ron Carlson.

Speaking about a string of cases in Athens, Ga., where lawful citizens used guns to thwart burglaries and attacks, Mr. Carlson suggested to the Athens Banner-Herald newspaper that “awareness of [Georgia’s Stand Your Ground] law spiked after the Trayvon Martin case.”....

More at the link.

Elspeth
07-12-2012, 01:09 PM
Zimmerman passed lie detector on night of Trayvon shooting
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/george-zimmerman-passed-first-lie-detector-test-after-shooting/1#.T_8ES2jvaJU

(About those Florida police that "didn't do their job"--LOL!)

A confidential report released Tuesday from Florida prosecutors shows that George Zimmerman passed a lie detector test the night he shot Trayvon Martin.

The Sanford, Fla., police report shows that the test involved his claim that he did not confront the unarmed 17-year-old on Feb. 26 and that he feared for his life when he shot Trayvon.

According to the police report, Zimmerman was asked nine questions, including two related to the shooting in the gated community.

According to the report, officials conducting the test asked Zimmerman these two questions:

Tester: "Did you confront the guy you shot?" Zimmerman: "No."
Tester: "Were you in fear for your life, when you shot the guy?" Zimmerman: "Yes."
Officials determined that the neighborhood watch volunteer "told substantially the complete truth in regards to this examination," the report said.

The report was part of more audio and video recordings and police documents released by the prosecutor's office.

Last week, Zimmerman's attorney Mark O'Mara released some of the same audio and video recordings and written statements that his client gave police after the shooting.

Zimmerman says Trayvon knocked him to the ground with a punch to the nose, then repeatedly banged his head into the pavement. He told police he shot Trayvon after the teen went for Zimmerman's gun that was holstered in his hip.

Zimmerman, who has been charged with second-degree murder, has pleaded not guilty, claiming he acted in self-defense.

Elspeth
07-12-2012, 02:11 PM
!

Elspeth
07-21-2012, 08:15 PM
William Cooper on Rodney King/LA Riots

http://hourofthetime.com/bcmp3/13.mp3

Listen to his breakdown of the case: the inflammatory press, the wrong charges filed, the change in venue--all leading to the eventual acquittal and riots, which brought the military and FEMA to LA streets.

I see Zimmerman as the next one of these cases.