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marinejcksn
04-10-2012, 08:27 PM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?

Zeus
04-10-2012, 08:35 PM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?

Reagan was considered the lesser of two evils by many vs Carter even back in those times. It's a matter of conscience. Does every vote count, could a single vote actually matter, could you live with the result if it did and you didn't vote.

Rockntractor
04-10-2012, 09:00 PM
No it is not okay for you to sit it out, this will probably be the most important election you will ever vote in!

Apache
04-10-2012, 09:10 PM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?

Good question. I can certainly see your point, however do you hamstring the country for God knows how long, by holding your vote?

NJCardFan
04-10-2012, 09:10 PM
Every non-vote for the GOP nominee is a vote for Obama. Obama needs voter apathy to have a chance. Right now I would vote for a shoe over Obama.

Kay
04-10-2012, 09:19 PM
No it is not ok.
We have to get the Kenyan out.
If you can't bring yourself to vote for Mitt,
then just think of it as a vote against​ Barry.

JB
04-10-2012, 09:22 PM
Sit it out. Just don't vote for some Libertarian or Green candidate to act like you're making some kind of righteous protest statement. I'm voting for Romney in three different locations in November so I have you covered.

Make sure you vote for local R's and don't work for their guy or against our guy.

Articulate_Ape
04-10-2012, 09:51 PM
no it is not okay for you to sit it out, this will probably be the most important election you will ever vote in!

^ this!

ABC in Georgia
04-10-2012, 10:07 PM
No! It is definitely not OK in this election ... please don't!

Read again what NJ had to say. This is the most important election of my entire lifetime, and *yours* as well marinejcksn, if you care about the freedoms you take for granted and the future direction of this country, you MUST not sit this out.


Every non-vote for the GOP nominee is a vote for Obama.Obama needs voter apathy to have a chance. Right now I would vote for a shoe over Obama.

Sorry to "scream" at you, but please take our advice.

~ ABC

marinejcksn
04-10-2012, 10:14 PM
So far, with all due respect, the most I've heard is I HAVE to vote for the Giant Douche over the Turd Sandwich because if I don't....AMERICA WONT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS! At least that's the line the toe sucker Dick Morris is peddling.

Am I the only person insulted by this absurd line of idiotic thinking? This country has survived:

The Revolutionary War, The Constitutional Convention, A President (Jackson) who basically told the Supreme Court to suck it, The Civil War, A Partially-Fascist President (Wilson), World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Recessions, Stock Market Crashes, Presidential Assassinations and the bailout of some of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet.

Are we really supposed to have so little faith in our fellow man to believe that if Obama squeaks through again that the country will crumble like the Roman Empire?

Am I missing something here?

Starbuck
04-10-2012, 10:18 PM
Sure. Sit it out if you don't care. Lots of people do. Look around. See those people sitting it out? You're like them, not us.:smile-new:

Go play.

Articulate_Ape
04-10-2012, 10:22 PM
Yes, you are missing the fact that you are voting between a guy with his foot on the gas pedal headed for a cliff 100 yards away at 100 mph vs a guy that will apply the brakes starting at 50 yards from the cliff, and maybe not that hard.

If you want to stop the car, you could vote for Ron Paul, but it's not only too late for that, most of you think stopping the car is crazy.

Rockntractor
04-10-2012, 10:32 PM
So far, with all due respect, the most I've heard is I HAVE to vote for the Giant Douche over the Turd Sandwich because if I don't....AMERICA WONT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS! At least that's the line the toe sucker Dick Morris is peddling.

Am I the only person insulted by this absurd line of idiotic thinking? This country has survived:

The Revolutionary War, The Constitutional Convention, A President (Jackson) who basically told the Supreme Court to suck it, The Civil War, A Partially-Fascist President (Wilson), World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Recessions, Stock Market Crashes, Presidential Assassinations and the bailout of some of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet.

Are we really supposed to have so little faith in our fellow man to believe that if Obama squeaks through again that the country will crumble like the Roman Empire?

Am I missing something here?

Take your Ritalinhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/asile/fourateau.gif.

Starbuck
04-10-2012, 10:36 PM
................Am I missing something here?

Well, yes, you are. You have missed the fact that our country can only fail once.

Then the game is over.

ABC in Georgia
04-10-2012, 10:40 PM
Take your Ritalinhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/asile/fourateau.gif.

And why not make it a "double" while he's at it!

I give up on him after his latest message.

~ ABC

Apache
04-10-2012, 10:40 PM
So far, with all due respect, the most I've heard is I HAVE to vote for the Giant Douche over the Turd Sandwich because if I don't....AMERICA WONT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS! At least that's the line the toe sucker Dick Morris is peddling.

Am I the only person insulted by this absurd line of idiotic thinking? This country has survived:

The Revolutionary War, The Constitutional Convention, A President (Jackson) who basically told the Supreme Court to suck it, The Civil War, A Partially-Fascist President (Wilson), World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Recessions, Stock Market Crashes, Presidential Assassinations and the bailout of some of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet.

Are we really supposed to have so little faith in our fellow man to believe that if Obama squeaks through again that the country will crumble like the Roman Empire?

Am I missing something here?Yes, you are missing something here...

Throughout the history you've recounted, one thing remained constant, a work ethic. That is rapidly being sucked out of our country.Look ay the Occutard movement, many of our highschool aged kids, many on the welfare rolls. Now, to be honest, this isn't solely Zero's fault. He is accelerating the the outcome...

Lanie
04-10-2012, 11:02 PM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?

You don't want to sit out. There are always state politicians to vote for along with local ones.

People say you should vote your conscience. Then, they say to hold your nose. After a while, one feels like they're sinning by voting because the choices are that bad.

When I thought Santorum was going to win the primary, I had it in my head to write in LaLa, my dog for President. She's sweet, and she'll lick our enemies to death. lol. Now, I might not do that.

Imagine if there were a million votes for LaLa, Spot, Friskie, or other pet names because people just don't like their choices.

Lanie
04-10-2012, 11:06 PM
No it is not okay for you to sit it out, this will probably be the most important election you will ever vote in!

I thought 2008 was the most important election. No wait, it was 2004. No wait, it was 1992.

Everybody thinks doom will happen if their guy doesn't win.

I thought if Bush got a second term, then he'd get his way in getting more nukes made and then start a nuclear war with N. Korea or one of those other countries he didn't like. Didn't happen.

People thought Clinton and Obama would bring communism to the country. I know it's hard to believe, but that didn't happen.

It will be okay. Just sayin.

Rockntractor
04-10-2012, 11:14 PM
I thought 2008 was the most important election. No wait, it was 2004. No wait, it was 1992.

Everybody thinks doom will happen if their guy doesn't win.

I thought if Bush got a second term, then he'd get his way in getting more nukes made and then start a nuclear war with N. Korea or one of those other countries he didn't like. Didn't happen.

People thought Clinton and Obama would bring communism to the country. I know it's hard to believe, but that didn't happen.

It will be okay. Just sayin.
http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss350/AStarSpangledGirl/valley_girl.gif

Adam Wood
04-10-2012, 11:56 PM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?Ya know, if you were in California or Massachusetts or Mississippi, I'd say go right ahead and make your protest. Enter a non-vote or write in Mickey Mouse or whatever. But you live in a rather important battleground state. As such, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to live with some "principled stance" or whatever if the state went for Obama.

I'm not going to say that the entire country is going to go to Hell in a handbasket if Obama gets four more years, but I do GREATLY fear what a truly unfettered Obama is likely to do in a second term. We saw how much damage Bush managed to do in just the last couple of months of his unfettered second term. I'm afraid I have to predict that Obama will be much, MUCH worse.


Obviously you're welcome to do as you wish, but if I were the one wearing your shoes, I'd hold my nose just to get Obama out of there.

Articulate_Ape
04-11-2012, 12:07 AM
I thought 2008 was the most important election. No wait, it was 2004. No wait, it was 1992.

Everybody thinks doom will happen if their guy doesn't win.

I thought if Bush got a second term, then he'd get his way in getting more nukes made and then start a nuclear war with N. Korea or one of those other countries he didn't like. Didn't happen.

People thought Clinton and Obama would bring communism to the country. I know it's hard to believe, but that didn't happen.

It will be okay. Just sayin.

Lanie, your skepticism is fair and warranted given the hyperbole common to the election seasons over the years. I, quite frankly, hope you are right, but I have been kicking around for a while and I really do think this go around is different. In the past such rhetoric was about this policy or that policy, do we do this or do we do that?

At this point in time, all of that tug-of-war over how much to spend beyond our means and who is to blame is moot. We are where we are, and where we are is not in a good place. This nation is headed for a financial catastrophe, the likes of which the world has never seen. While we bicker over issues of racism, social/economic equality, the environment, etc., the very fabric (whether it be just or not) that holds humanity together on this planet is very, very close to collapsing. That fabric is woven from the economies of almost every nation and is held together by the strands of a trusted currency with which to benchmark value.

That benchmark is still the US dollar, but it will not be for much longer unless it can be proved we are worth it. I will not school you on the numbers, as they are readily available, both in Obamath and generally accepted accounting methods. If the US dollar loses its status as the global default currency, then all those fiat dollars that the Fed has pumped out via QE1 and QE2 (money printings 1 & 2) will drop in value like you won't believe.

Now, couple all of that good news with Obama's agenda from Healthcare to Nutland and you have a nation that has hit rock bottom and has started digging.

In short, this really is an election that will fundamentally change this nation, and, sadly, the choice seems to be death at dusk or death at dawn.

Odysseus
04-11-2012, 12:33 AM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?

You sat out the last election because you didn't like McCain, but would McCain have been as bad as Obama? Would he have abandoned our gains in the Middle East? Would he have shafted our allies and sucked up to our enemies? Would he have spent trillions of dollars on idiotic stimulus and socialist pipe dreams? Would he have abandoned domestic energy sources? Would he have fomented racial conflict to shore up his reelection chances? Was he, when all is said and done, a dishonorable man? No. McCain was flawed, but he was a patriot who spent his entire life in service to his country. He would have been an order of magnitude better than Obama, and if the slow descent into socialism wouldn't have ended on his watch, at least he wouldn't have thrown off all constraints and shoved us in head first.

Life isn't about making perfect choices, because more often than not, we don't have perfect options. We act on what is possible, not what we would like things to be. Right now, the choice is Romney or Obama. Anything else is a fantasy. If you sit it out, then Obama has one less vote to overcome, and that puts him one vote closer to having the "flexibility" that he wants for his second term, when he'll really pull out all of the stops.

Remember your oath, Marine. Support and defend the Constitution.

With your vote.

Hawkgirl
04-11-2012, 12:49 AM
I'll put it to you this way. If you don't vote, you better not bitch when you are paying $100 for a loaf of bread and $50,000 for the next electric car. (inflation) Don't bitch when you are waiting 3 months for an MRI. Don't bitch when your doctor's visit copay is $300. Don't bitch when the Taliban retakes Afghanistan when we are gone. Don't bitch when your taxes are more than your take home pay.

Just don't bitch, if you don't vote.

Articulate_Ape
04-11-2012, 12:50 AM
You sat out the last election because you didn't like McCain, but would McCain have been as bad as Obama? Would he have abandoned our gains in the Middle East? Would he have shafted our allies and sucked up to our enemies? Would he have spent trillions of dollars on idiotic stimulus and socialist pipe dreams? Would he have abandoned domestic energy sources? Would he have fomented racial conflict to shore up his reelection chances? Was he, when all is said and done, a dishonorable man? No. McCain was flawed, but he was a patriot who spent his entire life in service to his country. He would have been an order of magnitude better than Obama, and if the slow descent into socialism wouldn't have ended on his watch, at least he wouldn't have thrown off all constraints and shoved us in head first.

Life isn't about making perfect choices, because more often than not, we don't have perfect options. We act on what is possible, not what we would like things to be. Right now, the choice is Romney or Obama. Anything else is a fantasy. If you sit it out, then Obama has one less vote to overcome, and that puts him one vote closer to having the "flexibility" that he wants for his second term, when he'll really pull out all of the stops.

Remember your oath, Marine. Support and defend the Constitution.

With your vote.

Have a some Karma, Ody. Sadly I have to give it to you the old-fashioned way since CU seems to have a quota thing in this regard

mike128
04-11-2012, 02:41 AM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?
I'm surprised that you didn't vote for McCain back in 2008. I did vote for McCain, although I held my nose when I did it.

This time around, I have decided to sit out. Just as you couldn't bring yourself to vote for McCain four years ago, I can't bring myself to vote for Romney this time around. I don't fault conservatives who do vote for Romney, however, because what we have in the White House now is a total disaster. While it's true that Romney is better than Obama, the differences are not great enough to get me to pull the Romney lever.

You are going to have to search your conscience and decide what to do on Election Day. In any case, don't let others force you into doing something that violates your conscience. That's the best advice I have.

m00
04-11-2012, 02:45 AM
No it is not okay for you to sit it out, this will probably be the most important election you will ever vote in!

In 100% seriousness, hasn't this been true of every election? I've literally heard this about every presidential election since I was able to vote.

m00
04-11-2012, 03:17 AM
My biggest irritation in all this that I feel like my free-will has been taken away.

Romney was declared the winner from the get-go. The media told us since Iowa that he was "inevitable" and the only "serious candidate." The other candidates only made the news when they gaffed. It's push-pulling. On top of this, Romney got 5x or more the funding of the other candidates.... all from financial and corporate sector. But, Romney is pro-bailout so that makes sense.

Now what's really suspicious is that the mainstream media are all owned by a small number of parent companies such as GE and Westinghouse. Entities that benefit from the policies that everyone is afraid Romney will implement (corporate welfare).

Now maybe Romney is the best candidate, and maybe he's not. But he's been shoved down our throats, and we are told by the media and the Republican establishment that basically the primary system is a charade to validate the establishment candidate, and we're going to vote for who they damn well tell us. In fact, "winning" is defined by the media by whatever Romney happens to do that day. Romney ties his shoes? Oh, that's what winners do. Santorum ties his shoes? Doesn't he know that it's loafer season?! What a loser. Then crack a joke about Paul or Gingrich.

This, more than anything else, on some deep instinctual level, makes me want to do the opposite of what the media and the establishment are telling me.

Bailey
04-11-2012, 06:09 AM
I'm surprised that you didn't vote for McCain back in 2008. I did vote for McCain, although I held my nose when I did it.

This time around, I have decided to sit out. Just as you couldn't bring yourself to vote for McCain four years ago, I can't bring myself to vote for Romney this time around. I don't fault conservatives who do vote for Romney, however, because what we have in the White House now is a total disaster. While it's true that Romney is better than Obama, the differences are not great enough to get me to pull the Romney lever.

You are going to have to search your conscience and decide what to do on Election Day. In any case, don't let others force you into doing something that violates your conscience. That's the best advice I have.

So what you are saying dumb ass is that Romney is better then Obama but you wont vote for the better candidate? There by allowing obama to win another election? You are either an obama supporter or the worlds biggest dumbass.

marinejcksn
04-11-2012, 07:28 AM
But you live in a rather important battleground state.

Is it really a swing state though? Pa has voted Democrat 6 out of the last 10 elections and hasn't gone to a Republican since Bush the Elder.

I'm definitely not staying home this fall. There are local and state races I'm following, and I want the chance to vote against Bob Casey.

But now that Santorum is gone, and Newt Blowhard refuses to drop out in order to raise his speaking fees....I think I'm done with the Presidential race.

Can I just ask one thing: can anyone tell me why they're enthusiastically voting for Romney? I know the reasons are "he's not Obama". But I want to vote for something positive rather than just against something again. :cold:

linda22003
04-11-2012, 08:42 AM
I have never sat out an election. There are always Congressional or local candidates and issues to be decided. I am quite capable of leaving the top office blank; I have done it before.

Odysseus
04-11-2012, 08:48 AM
Is it really a swing state though? Pa has voted Democrat 6 out of the last 10 elections and hasn't gone to a Republican since Bush the Elder.

Massachusetts hadn't elected a Republican senator since 1962. Things change, and PA may be in play, for the simple reason that Obama has so thoroughly screwed up the country in his first term that many Democrats aren't going to pull the lever for him. If it came down to a few votes, wouldn't you want yours to be one of them?


Is I'm definitely not staying home this fall. There are local and state races I'm following, and I want the chance to vote against Bob Casey.

But now that Santorum is gone, and Newt Blowhard refuses to drop out in order to raise his speaking fees....I think I'm done with the Presidential race.

Can I just ask one thing: can anyone tell me why they're enthusiastically voting for Romney? I know the reasons are "he's not Obama". But I want to vote for something positive rather than just against something again. :cold:


There is a lot to recommend Romney. First, he was extremely effective at Bain Capital and running the Salt Lake City Olympics, which means that he has a proven record of taking failed or failing enterprises and turning them around without increasing costs. Given the massive failures that we are seeing in DC, that's not a bad resume, especially in view of his record as governor, where he started with a $3 billion deficit and left office with a $721 million surplus. As governor of Massachusetts, we're told that he governed as a liberal, but he actually vetoed over 800 bills or line items in the budget. Most of these were overturned, but let's face it, he was governor of the most liberal state in the country, and he managed to bring the budget back into line with revenues despite the Democrats.

His Wikipedia entry details his actions as governor. It's not as bad as Mike128 makes it out to be. For example, although he claimed to be pro-choice, Romney vetoed a number of pro-abortion bills. He started out being in favor of embryonic stem cell research, but changed his mind afer talking to a stem cell researcher:




Romney says that his views on abortion were drastically altered on November 9, 2004, after discussing stem cell research with Douglas Melton, a stem cell researcher at Harvard University (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/wiki/Harvard_University). The Harvard Stem Cell Institute was planning research that would have involved therapeutic cloning.[110] (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/#cite_note-109) The Governor says that Melton declared that the research "is not a moral issue because we kill the embryos at 14 days." "I looked over at Beth Myers, my chief of staff, and we both had exactly the same reaction, which is it just hit us hard," recalled Romney. "And as they walked out, I said, 'Beth, we have cheapened the sanctity of life by virtue of the Roe v. Wade mentality.' And from that point forward, I said to the people of Massachusetts, 'I will continue to honor what I pledged to you, but I prefer to call myself pro-life.'"[111] (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/#cite_note-110) Melton disputes Romney's account of the meeting, declaring "Governor Romney has mischaracterized my position; we didn't discuss killing or anything related to it ... I explained my work to him, told him about my deeply held respect for life, and explained that my work focuses on improving the lives of those suffering from debilitating diseases."[112] (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/#cite_note-Romney.27s_journey_to_the_right-111)




If Romney is telling the truth, then this means that he is open to changing his mind when he is presented with new evidence. This means, to me, anyway, that his other more liberal positions may change as he works with more conservatives and gets an earful on things like Global Warming, gun control and the like.

On foreign policy, he favors a strong defense, and as governor, he was extremely pro-military. He also understands the we are facing an existential threat from the global jihad.

He's also honest, in the sense that he doesn't use the political process to enrich himself or his cronies. His policy positions have changed over the years, but so have a lot of people's (Reagan started out as an FDR Democrat). He's done missionary work, and takes his faith seriously.
He's a good, decent man who holds some opinions that I'd prefer that he didn't, but he's not a totalitarian monster who will sell the country out to its enemies.

noonwitch
04-11-2012, 08:51 AM
Sit it out, or vote for a 3rd party candidate.


What do you expect me to say?:friendly_wink:

Stoic
04-11-2012, 09:03 AM
SGT Jackson,

The question you have to ask yourself is this: If, hypothetically, obama were to win the election, and it was your vote (or lack thereof) that decided it, could you live with yourself?

Whether or not your vote actually decides it is irrelevant. We now know it's going to be Romney versus obama. As much as we all wanted someone else to get the nomination, it won't be.

For me, there is no question. You decide for yourself.

marinejcksn
04-11-2012, 09:11 AM
I just don't see Romney being drastically different than Obama. He strikes me as Bush 2.0, only more arrogant.

And he turned around the Olympics by begging the feds for cash. Not exactly what I'd call a limited government advocate.

His flip-flops bother me because I personally don't care if he's pro-choice or pro-life. Abortion and gay marriage and these social issues that Republicans repeatedly go to the well with are not going to get the job done any more. I just wish Romney would grow a spine and be solid. It doesn't speak well of his character when he's willing to run all over the country pretending to be everything to everyone. Isn't that EXACTLY what Obama did in 2008?

And lets drop the rhetoric and be intellectually honest: Obama has yet to materialize into the Socialist Monster we've been told he is, at least so far. He violated the constitution with recess appointments, passed the NDAA and has railroaded through legislation. Is that any different than some of the Constitutional abandonments under Bush? Obama may drink the marxist koolaid, but so far he's basically been a left wing crony capitalist.

I want Obama to be a one term President. I just don't think replacing him with a centrist crony capitalist is going to change much in the long run.

Janice
04-11-2012, 09:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q


I'll put it to you this way. If you don't vote, you better not bitch when you are paying $100 for a loaf of bread and $50,000 for the next electric car. (inflation) Don't bitch when you are waiting 3 months for an MRI. Don't bitch when your doctor's visit copay is $300. Don't bitch when the Taliban retakes Afghanistan when we are gone. Don't bitch when your taxes are more than your take home pay.

Just don't bitch, if you don't vote.

I would have to agree with this too. To you question: I cant imagine anyone enthusiastically voting for Romney. But that is what the eunuchs in the GOP together with the marxist party and marxist supporting media have made to be the only other choice at this time.

In the midterms we overwhelmingly reacted to congress ignoring us by ramming 0bamacare down our throats and threw them all out. Not only that but we elected tea party candidates to replace them. Next election we can do the same in the Senate. Some of the socialists undoubtedly see this coming and are voluntarily getting out before we throw them out to 'save face'.

But taking our country back is going to be a gradual process. Just like how the socialists have gradually taken all the levers of power over the last hundred years or so. It didnt happen overnite. And 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 80 years ago just like today ... good people did nothing. They 'sat it out'. And its true. The only thing necessary for evil to win... is for good people to do nothing. Its always been this way... ever since the revolutionary war. Lucky for us there were enough patriots. Only about 30% of the colonists were real patriots. Thank God for them!

Now all these years later. What did we go to war for if not the right to vote or choose? Bad choices today, yes. But its a process. And yet, many have opted out .... years and years of people "opting out" have left us with piss poor choices. And opting out again will increase the odds of even worse choices in the future. You can count on that as sure as the sun rises in the east. Intelligent folks "drop out" of the process and what are we left with with? We are left with Oprah Winfrey types. We are left with the moocher class. We are left with the parasites infesting the polls with multiple votes. And guess who they are voting for? Is this what all our brave men and women went to war and died for? Really???

We have replaced most of the House and will hopefully replace the Senate. Eventually these junior congress people will become the leaders and replace the eunuchs we have now. But it may not happen if the responsible class, the intelligent class doesnt show up and vote. And this includes the Presidential election too. Because these people are THIS close to out right stealing all future elections. We must defeat these clowns by overwhelming numbers or ... that is exactly what is going to happen.

Not sure about how to compare these 2 people. I sort of feel like Romney thanks to the GOP is kinda like helping to build the tracks that lead to an "Auschwitz". They are not complete by a long shot. And we can still intervene to stop the construction of them. We can in effect (thru congress) hold his feet to the fire. 0bama on the other hand already has his "Auschwitz" complete. He is busy stuffing as many of us into the ovens as fast as his useless marxist ass will allow him. And he has a lot of helpers too. He also has a lot of folks that are just sitting around and "watching". They are watching all of this. It appears that many of them have drank from a cup marked as "apathy". Very powerful stuff. Can you believe it?

Well, thats where we are my friend. Are you gonna just sit there? The patriots are down (a game analogy). The marxists appear to be leading. Are they going to win? Are we going to give up? Maybe. Maybe the mist or cloud of apathy is too intoxicating to resist. I for one, hope this is not the case. I am lock and loaded. And I am not interested in appeasement. I am taking no prisoners. Its us or them. These bastards must be defeated. My country was here for me and Im not giving up on her. And I will pass on the kool aid, thank you very much.

linda22003
04-11-2012, 09:55 AM
Odysseus: I think you mean 1972, when Ed Brooke was re-elected to the Senate from Massachusetts.

Odysseus
04-11-2012, 10:00 AM
I just don't see Romney being drastically different than Obama. He strikes me as Bush 2.0, only more arrogant.

And he turned around the Olympics by begging the feds for cash. Not exactly what I'd call a limited government advocate.

Not true. He cut the Olympic budget, restructured the organization, boosted private fund raising, reassured the corporate sponsors and recruited more, at a time when the previous scandals and the 9/11 attacks had made the cancellation of the Winter Games extremely likely. He was responsible for $1.32 billion budget and the coordination of 700 employees and 26,000 volunteers. The federal government only provided $382 million for security (a significant concern after 9/11). It may not have been as tough as community organizing, but it was a great accomplishment.

You asked for a reason to support Romney, I gave you a bunch. If you're going to dismiss them, at least do the research first.


His flip-flops bother me because I personally don't care if he's pro-choice or pro-life. Abortion and gay marriage and these social issues that Republicans repeatedly go to the well with are not going to get the job done any more. I just wish Romney would grow a spine and be solid. It doesn't speak well of his character when he's willing to run all over the country pretending to be everything to everyone. Isn't that EXACTLY what Obama did in 2008?

And lets drop the rhetoric and be intellectually honest: Obama has yet to materialize into the Socialist Monster we've been told he is, at least so far. He violated the constitution with recess appointments, passed the NDAA and has railroaded through legislation. Is that any different than some of the Constitutional abandonments under Bush?



Comparing Obama to Bush ignores major distinctions between the two. Obama has added more debt in three years than Bush did in eight. In a second term, he'd be free to do even more damage. Bush didn't treat the Constitution like toilet paper, and he certainly didn't try to undermine congress or the courts. Bush's SCOTUS appointments were solid conservatives, while Obama's have been extreme leftists. In every category that you can compare the two, Obama comes off as far worse. Did Bush use the ATF to undermine gun laws and create a scandal in order to justify more gun control? Did Bush foment racial discord? Bush's recess appointments weren't unconstitutional. Presidents have that authority, and Bush didn't abuse it, but Obama made recess appointments when congress wasn't in recess.


Obama may drink the marxist koolaid, but so far he's basically been a left wing crony capitalist.
I want Obama to be a one term President. I just don't think replacing him with a centrist crony capitalist is going to change much in the long run.

Romney isn't a crony capitalist. He's a venture capitalist. Don't let the rhetoric blur the distinction. Romney didn't buy companies in order to simply loot them, or to funnel investor funds to his cronies, he turned them around and made them profitable. Those that he couldn't turn around went under, but his efforts staved off their collapse, kept some of their profitable divisions running under new management and ultimately gave their investors and employees more time to react. Obama has used taxpayer funds to pick winners from among his pals, even though the companies were blatantly unsound, because of his hostility to the energy sectors and capitalism in general. Obamanomics is not crony capitalism, it's crony socialism.

Here are a few more reminders of just how much worse Obama has been than Bush was, or Romney is likely to be:



Supreme Court. In his first term Obama has already placed two radical liberals on the Supreme Court. This didn’t have much affect on how the court swings as they were replacing liberal judges anyways. In the next 4 years it is expected at least two of the more conservative leaning judges will need to be replaced. With forced insurance mandates, more gun control planned, and a wide variety of other issues, we can’t risk another radical liberals being appointed.
No re-election worries. Obama has taken extreme steps against the Constitution throughout his Presidency, but especially in recent months. He’s doing all this even though the election is coming up. Now just imagine what he will do without having to worry about being elected again.
Economy. The economy should be the number one issue this November. Obama can’t defend his abysmal record on jobs, debt, etc. so they are trying to push a social agenda controversy which is being led by the media with direction from the White House. They are also cooking the books with employment numbers, and as I said before, liberals and these so-called “moderates” are too naive to see beyond the headline. Every conservative and republican should be making this their top issue.
Freedom. In just the past few months we have seen extraordinary moves against our freedoms. Obama not only signed the NDAA which allows indefinite detention of American citizens, they demanded it be included in the defense bill. We can’t forget SOPA and the various other internet censoring bills, which most are tied back to hollywood which of course are backed by democrats. We can’t afford another 4 years of this.
Gun control. This administration has taken a lot of quiet steps towards radical gun control. They have also used the scandalous ‘Fast and Furious’ debacle as base for their plans to place harsh restrictions on Americans owning guns. The 2nd Amendment means absolutely nothing to these people, and all you have to do is look at Chicago to see what kind of gun control mess Obama and his liberal cronies created there.


http://www.americansagainstobama.com/2012/02/20/the-5-best-reasons-to-vote-against-obama/

And a longer list can be found at http://townhall.com/columnists/hughhewitt/2011/04/27/the_obama_project__the_case_for_change/page/full/

Janice
04-11-2012, 10:07 AM
Great replies Ody. Too bad the karma thingie is the way it is.

Adam Wood
04-11-2012, 10:17 AM
But I want to vote for something positive rather than just against something again. :cold:I hate to burst your bubble, my warrior friend, but the simple reality is that relatively few Americans actually get to enthusiastically vote for their Presidential candidate in the general election. This has happened to me once, when my mother lifted me up in the voting booth as a kid and I got to pull the lever for Reagan.

At the end of the day, elections are going to be about compromise, whether we like it or not. If it just so happens that the stars align and there is a candidate out there that you just love, then that's great, but it doesn't happen often and it doesn't happen to many people. That's just the mathematical reality of elections. I voted for Bush in 2000, but I wouldn't call it an enthusiastic vote. I wasn't voting against someone else, technically, since Clinton was out anyway, but I most definitely did not want Al Gore to be President. So in some ways, I was indeed voting against Gore, but there's some of that in every election. Goldwater voters loved Goldwater. Talk about some enthusiastic voters. But there were plenty who were voting against Goldwater and not because they thought Lyndon Johnson was some sort of great President. And the reverse is true, too.

You can go through every Presidential election, almost certainly all the way back to Washington, and you'll find that there's usually a lot of people who are voting against the other guy and also a lot who are holding their noses while casting their vote. That's just the way it is. If there were a perfect candidate for everyone, or even just a majority of the country, then elections would all be a breeze. That's just not going to happen in the real world, I'm afraid.



ETA: FWIW, Herman Cain would have actually been a case of me enthusiastically voting for someone this time around. C'est la vie.

Odysseus
04-11-2012, 10:25 AM
Great replies Ody. Too bad the karma thingie is the way it is.

Thanks. I think that I'm maxed out anyway. :star:

marinejcksn
04-11-2012, 10:58 AM
You've made some pretty good points on Romney. Still not convinced, but some good points nonetheless.

I just hope the GOP establishment doesn't keep doing this or the Republican party is pretty much useless. If Romney wins, I hope it's by the skin of his ass and scares the establishment so they stop with the moderates. That, and just pray that if it's Romney we can force him to the Right.

Elspeth
04-11-2012, 11:00 AM
Great replies Ody. Too bad the karma thingie is the way it is.

I know! I keep trying to give Ody points and I can't. It's set up like socialism: you have to share the wealth first before you can go back and reward true merit.

Janice
04-11-2012, 11:05 AM
I know! I keep trying to give Ody points and I can't. It's set up like socialism: you have to share the wealth first before you can go back and reward true merit.

Yup. I think Ive got like 3 people in que now that I am not allowed to give karma to unless I go play in the street first or some kinda weird thing. :cool:

Rockntractor
04-11-2012, 11:31 AM
You've made some pretty good points on Romney. Still not convinced, but some good points nonetheless.

I just hope the GOP establishment doesn't keep doing this or the Republican party is pretty much useless. If Romney wins, I hope it's by the skin of his ass and scares the establishment so they stop with the moderates. That, and just pray that if it's Romney we can force him to the Right.

Both parties are useless, the time to raise hell for a change is right after the election not in the end of the primary fight.
Most people here were unconcerned until the primaries were well under way, If we don't show up for the party we cannot expect a door prize.
Routinely every election cycle we look to the party leadership and say handle it handle it, and then when the nominee is not even close to what we want, everyone whines.
Vote for Romney,and after the inauguration when you can possibly effect an actual influence then complain!

Zathras
04-11-2012, 11:55 AM
So what you are saying dumb ass is that Romney is better then Obama but you wont vote for the better candidate? There by allowing obama to win another election? You are both an obama supporter and the worlds biggest dumbass.

Fixed that for you Bailey. DUmbass128 is a lying sack of shit when it comes to claiming that he's a conservative.

Janice
04-11-2012, 11:56 AM
I just hope the GOP establishment doesn't keep doing this ...


They are who they are. They will not change. We must pay attention and vote them out. Its just that simple. Boehner, McConnell, Cantor and McCarthy must all be given the boot. Then the juniors we just elected can step up. THAT will be real change. But the current repuke leadership FEARS conservatives and cares for nothing but their own power. Its sad but true.

DumbAss Tanker
04-11-2012, 12:26 PM
So far, with all due respect, the most I've heard is I HAVE to vote for the Giant Douche over the Turd Sandwich because if I don't....AMERICA WONT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS! At least that's the line the toe sucker Dick Morris is peddling.

Am I the only person insulted by this absurd line of idiotic thinking? This country has survived:

The Revolutionary War, The Constitutional Convention, A President (Jackson) who basically told the Supreme Court to suck it, The Civil War, A Partially-Fascist President (Wilson), World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Recessions, Stock Market Crashes, Presidential Assassinations and the bailout of some of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet.

Are we really supposed to have so little faith in our fellow man to believe that if Obama squeaks through again that the country will crumble like the Roman Empire?

Am I missing something here?

I feel your pain, but despite being completely unable to muster any enthusiasm for Romney himself, the idea of Holder remaining the AG, Jackson-Lee pushing the EPA to further and further economy-crippling intrusions, four years of additional exposure to possible Obama Supreme Court nominations, a fiscal policy that is reminiscent of nothing so much as the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, and a foreign policy that is completely adrift compel me to vote for the smarmy SOB over Obama. One thing I don't expect to see under Romney is any reform of crony capitalism, but at least it will be a different bunch of cronies.

Hawkgirl
04-11-2012, 12:27 PM
You've made some pretty good points on Romney. Still not convinced, but some good points nonetheless.

I just hope the GOP establishment doesn't keep doing this or the Republican party is pretty much useless. If Romney wins, I hope it's by the skin of his ass and scares the establishment so they stop with the moderates. That, and just pray that if it's Romney we can force him to the Right.


If you're not convinced after Ody's posts, then you don't need convincing, you just want someone here to agree with you. As I said, sit out the election, but don't complain when Obama sinks this country.

Lanie
04-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Remember your oath, Marine. Support and defend the Constitution.

With your vote.

Should I even touch that with a ten food poll? Sort of suggests that a marine who votes Democrat (which doesn't happen often, but does happen) isn't defending their country.

Adam Wood
04-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Should I even touch that with a ten food poll?Maybe. He might be hungry. You never know.

linda22003
04-11-2012, 12:32 PM
Should I even touch that with a ten food poll? Sort of suggests that a marine who votes Democrat (which doesn't happen often, but does happen) isn't defending their country.

Why take a food poll? Why do you want to survey what he eats?

Hawkgirl
04-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Should I even touch that with a ten food poll? Sort of suggests that a marine who votes Democrat (which doesn't happen often, but does happen) isn't defending their country.

The part you bolded doesn't say vote Republican, it said Defend the constitution with your vote.

RedGrouse
04-11-2012, 12:53 PM
Ya know, if you were in California or Massachusetts or Mississippi, I'd say go right ahead and make your protest. Enter a non-vote or write in Mickey Mouse or whatever. But you live in a rather important battleground state. As such, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to live with some "principled stance" or whatever if the state went for Obama.

I'm not going to say that the entire country is going to go to Hell in a handbasket if Obama gets four more years, but I do GREATLY fear what a truly unfettered Obama is likely to do in a second term. We saw how much damage Bush managed to do in just the last couple of months of his unfettered second term. I'm afraid I have to predict that Obama will be much, MUCH worse.


Obviously you're welcome to do as you wish, but if I were the one wearing your shoes, I'd hold my nose just to get Obama out of there.

Don't mind if I add to your posts. The election is not just confined to the President. There is Congress as well and one can vote whoever one wants since Congress represents the district and state.

Kay
04-11-2012, 01:45 PM
I feel your pain, but despite being completely unable to muster any enthusiasm for Romney himself, the idea of Holder remaining the AG, Jackson-Lee pushing the EPA to further and further economy-crippling intrusions, four years of additional exposure to possible Obama Supreme Court nominations, a fiscal policy that is reminiscent of nothing so much as the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, and a foreign policy that is completely adrift compel me to vote for the smarmy SOB over Obama. One thing I don't expect to see under Romney is any reform of crony capitalism, but at least it will be a different bunch of cronies.

THIS is a most excellent reply. Don't forget that your not just voting in the one man, but also voting in his whole cabinet team that he brings with. We already know what circle of friends Barry brings along, such as Holder. That alone should move those thinking of sitting out to vote for an administration change.

Odysseus
04-11-2012, 01:56 PM
Should I even touch that with a ten food poll?


Thanks, but I just had lunch.


Sort of suggests that a marine who votes Democrat (which doesn't happen often, but does happen) isn't defending their country.

Not the Democrats in general, just the one who thinks that the Constitution is flawed.

"deeply flawed." (http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/obama-constitution/2008/10/27/id/326165)
Obama in 2001:

“The original Constitution as well as the Civil War Amendments,” he replied. “But I think it is an imperfect document, and I think it is a document that reflects some deep flaws in American culture, the Colonial culture nascent at that time.


“African-Americans were not -- first of all they weren’t African-Americans -- the Africans at the time were not considered as part of the polity that was of concern to the Framers. I think that as Richard said it was a ‘nagging problem’ in the same way that these days we might think of environmental issues, or some other problem where you have to balance cost-benefits, as opposed to seeing it as a moral problem involving persons of moral worth.
“And in that sense,” Obama continued, “I think we can say that the Constitution reflected an enormous blind spot in this culture that carries on until this day, and that the Framers had that same blind spot. I don’t think the two views are contradictory, to say that it was a remarkable political document that paved the way for where we are now, and to say that it also reflected the fundamental flaw of this country that continues to this day.”

Molon Labe
04-11-2012, 02:52 PM
Good thread MJ.

I'm not torn too much anymore. I'm probably not sitting out, but will vote for an unamed as of yet third party if they are principled enough.

Romney is a liberal. If he's the nominee, then I'm not voting for him. I am in no ways voting for any liberal socialst no matter what symbol or badge he wears. This will be the second consecutive election I will have done so.

Arroyo_Doble
04-11-2012, 03:04 PM
In 100% seriousness, hasn't this been true of every election? I've literally heard this about every presidential election since I was able to vote.

But this time it is true ...... just like every other election.


Sit out, don't sit out. That's a personal decision. But my advice is to vote. Always.

Zeus
04-11-2012, 03:13 PM
Janice your Auschwitz comparison was beyond the pale, I'm surprised at you for doing such a thing.

You folks calling Romney a liberal have drank the koolaid rather than do a little homework.

Arroyo_Doble
04-11-2012, 03:22 PM
Janice your Auschwitz comparison was beyond the pale, I'm surprised at you for doing such a thing.

You folks calling Romney a liberal have drank the Earl Grey rather than do a little homework.

Fixed.

Odysseus
04-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Good thread MJ.

I'm not torn too much anymore. I'm probably not sitting out, but will vote for an unamed as of yet third party if they are principled enough.

Romney is a liberal. If he's the nominee, then I'm not voting for him. I am in no ways voting for any liberal socialst no matter what symbol or badge he wears. This will be the second consecutive election I will have done so.

And if enough people do the same, then this will be the second consecutive election won by Obama. Is that what you want?


Odysseus: I think you mean 1972, when Ed Brooke was re-elected to the Senate from Massachusetts.

Oops. Forgot about him.

m00
04-11-2012, 05:33 PM
Both parties are useless, the time to raise hell for a change is right after the election not in the end of the primary fight.

If the Republican establishment already has your vote for their guy, what possible reason do they have to listen after the election? In 2016 it will be "the most important election ever" and if Romney is beats Obama, he'll be on the ticket. Then you have to vote for him, by the logic I've seen during the primary. If Obama ends up beating Romney, in 2016 they'll put up Big Government Empty Suit #245 and convince everyone that if he doesn't beat out the Democrat's Big Government Empty Suit #392 then America will collapse in 4 years.

Am I the only one that sees this pattern?

Arroyo_Doble
04-11-2012, 05:38 PM
If the Republican establishment already has your vote for their guy, what possible reason do they have to listen after the election? In 2016 it will be "the most important election ever" and if Romney is beats Obama, he'll be on the ticket. Then you have to vote for him, by the logic I've seen during the primary. If Obama ends up beating Romney, in 2016 they'll put up Big Government Empty Suit #245 and convince everyone that if he doesn't beat out the Democrat's Big Government Empty Suit #392 then America will collapse in 4 years.

Am I the only one that sees this pattern?

No.

Although I liken it to the shopping channel hyperbole where TIME IS RUNNING OUT!!!

m00
04-11-2012, 05:56 PM
No.

Although I liken it to the shopping channel hyperbole where TIME IS RUNNING OUT!!!

It's a bit different though, right? Because on the shopping channel, your options are buy or not buy. So the logical expression for this is: x > !x ? deal : no deal. The "time is running out!" tactics are employed as a psychological trick to make you over-estimate the value of the deal being offered on the shoddy product. This is something of a negative feedback loop because the cost of inaction (!x) is fixed.

The difference is that there will be a President. So here we are dealing with: x > y ? x : y. The psychological trick here is to convince a person only that x is slightly greater than y. The reason this is more insidious than your comparison implies is because there is a positive feedback loop where the value of x and y are lowered every election cycle.

The man that is going to rape and murder your family is better than the man who will rape and murder your family and then desecrate the corpses. In fact, if you don't vote for the man who will only rape and murder your family, then you clearly want the corpses of your family to be desecrated. So the Republican logic goes.

Arroyo_Doble
04-11-2012, 06:01 PM
It's a bit different though, right? Because on the shopping channel, your options are buy or not buy. So the logical expression for this is: x > !x ? deal : no deal. The "time is running out!" tactics are employed as a psychological trick to make you over-estimate the value of the deal being offered on the shoddy product. This is something of a negative feedback loop because the cost of inaction (!x) is fixed.

The difference is that there will be a President. So here we are dealing with: x > y ? x : y. The psychological trick here is to convince a person only that x is slightly greater than y. The reason this is more insidious than your comparison implies is because there is a positive feedback loop where the value of x and y are lowered every election cycle.

The man that is going to rape and murder your family is better than the man who will rape and murder your family and then desecrate the corpses. In fact, if you don't vote for the man who will only rape and murder your family, then you clearly want the corpses of your family to be desecrated. So the Republican logic goes.

But that is what is being sold to the rational; the people who are able to work out the calculus involved in choosing between two slightly different choices (or, as the joke goes, democracy is the political system in which you get to pick your oppressor).

I was thinking more about the whole WE"REALLGONNADIE!!!!!OBAMAKENYA!!!ISLAM!!!!ARRRRGGGHG HHHH!!!! rhetoric.

m00
04-11-2012, 06:08 PM
I was thinking more about the whole WE"REALLGONNADIE!!!!!OBAMAKENYA!!!ISLAM!!!!ARRRRGGGHG HHHH!!!! rhetoric.

Well, it's a bit of work to make a case where Romney is the lesser of two evils. Such cases are made not by saying positive things about your candidate, but rather negative statements on the other. Each election the candidates are getting more outrageous, so the negativity has to become more extreme.

I've said this before, but recently I went and watched all the Reagan/Mondale debates on youtube. Both of them seem incredibly qualified with coherent (but differing) visions for the country, and they make thoughtful and civilized points to back up their arguments with occasionally some friendly ribbing. It's amazing how far things have sunk.

We're frogs in the pan.

Rockntractor
04-11-2012, 06:25 PM
If the Republican establishment already has your vote for their guy, what possible reason do they have to listen after the election? In 2016 it will be "the most important election ever" and if Romney is beats Obama, he'll be on the ticket. Then you have to vote for him, by the logic I've seen during the primary. If Obama ends up beating Romney, in 2016 they'll put up Big Government Empty Suit #245 and convince everyone that if he doesn't beat out the Democrat's Big Government Empty Suit #392 then America will collapse in 4 years.

Am I the only one that sees this pattern?

m00128

SaintLouieWoman
04-11-2012, 06:31 PM
We've donated to Newt and to Santorum. Do I like Romney? Better than Obama and Holder. I'll vote for Romney if for no other reason than to get a new attorney general. Romney might be less conservative than I'd prefer, but he's not the progressive that Obama is. I'm sick of the class warfare and the race-baiting of the Obama administration. I'm sick of the bowing to the unions and to our enemies.

I do not think that Romney will do any of the above. I just plain don't agree with Moo or Molon Labe. There is a difference between viewpoints of the candidates.

Drudge just has a piece that Holder is praising the Rev Al. Please. I've had enough of this. For folks to sit it out because their candidate didn't win isn't in the best interests of the country, in my humble opinion. There's liable to be nothing left if we wait for 2016 to get our favorite candidate nominated. Everyone has their right to their own opinion. I have a right to mine, which is to defeat Obama at the voting polls. There will be enough voters w/o ID's voting multiple times and those voters coming from the grave to vote for Obama. We can't have people sitting home and pouting.

Rockntractor
04-11-2012, 06:39 PM
We've donated to Newt and to Santorum. Do I like Romney? Better than Obama and Holder. I'll vote for Romney if for no other reason than to get a new attorney general. Romney might be less conservative than I'd prefer, but he's not the progressive that Obama is. I'm sick of the class warfare and the race-baiting of the Obama administration. I'm sick of the bowing to the unions and to our enemies.

I do not think that Romney will do any of the above. I just plain don't agree with Moo or Molon Labe. There is a difference between viewpoints of the candidates.

Drudge just has a piece that Holder is praising the Rev Al. Please. I've had enough of this. For folks to sit it out because their candidate didn't win isn't in the best interests of the country, in my humble opinion. There's liable to be nothing left if we wait for 2016 to get our favorite candidate nominated. Everyone has their right to their own opinion. I have a right to mine, which is to defeat Obama at the voting polls. There will be enough voters w/o ID's voting multiple times and those voters coming from the grave to vote for Obama. We can't have people sitting home and pouting.

You can tell these fence straddlers all you want and they will still help Obama stay in power.
If progressives continue to take hold our socialist supporters will be sorry someday, it might be fun for them now but when they are living under socialism with no hope of removing it they will think different.

Hawkgirl
04-11-2012, 06:42 PM
We've donated to Newt and to Santorum. Do I like Romney? Better than Obama and Holder. I'll vote for Romney if for no other reason than to get a new attorney general. Romney might be less conservative than I'd prefer, but he's not the progressive that Obama is. I'm sick of the class warfare and the race-baiting of the Obama administration. I'm sick of the bowing to the unions and to our enemies.

I do not think that Romney will do any of the above. I just plain don't agree with Moo or Molon Labe. There is a difference between viewpoints of the candidates.

Drudge just has a piece that Holder is praising the Rev Al. Please. I've had enough of this. For folks to sit it out because their candidate didn't win isn't in the best interests of the country, in my humble opinion. There's liable to be nothing left if we wait for 2016 to get our favorite candidate nominated. Everyone has their right to their own opinion. I have a right to mine, which is to defeat Obama at the voting polls. There will be enough voters w/o ID's voting multiple times and those voters coming from the grave to vote for Obama. We can't have people sitting home and pouting.

:applause:
Well said SLW

My preferences were Cain, Santorum, Newt, in that order. But I will not be a big baby about the fact that "my boy" didn't win. It is of utmost importance that Obama be "dethroned" Marine, this country can not afford 4 more years of Obama. Literally, we just cannot afford it. That's what you will ensure if you stay home(and others like you). Is that really want you want??? Obamacare will be impossible to reverse. Obamacare will destroy american healthcare as we know it. If you don't care about the unemployment numbers or the deficit..but at least care for our healthcare, he must be removed from office.

m00
04-11-2012, 07:16 PM
m00128

Yeah, everyone who disagrees with you is identical. There is no valid opinion other than the one you hold. Honestly, you deserve Romney. I hope you enjoy 8 years of Mitt. I await your "but but but... you want Obama to win!" rebuttal.

Zeus
04-11-2012, 07:36 PM
There is no shame in desiring a political candidate to be of a particular stripe. The shame comes from pissing and moaning and stomping your feet when that particular stripe doesn't materialize. Then to compound that shame to lie and exaggerate about the political process chosen candidate.

Back in the history of the Republican party there was this fellow that it took him 3 attempts before he got the nomination to run for President against a very unpopular Dem president at the time. Even then there was a lot of protest about him not being good enough and won't win. he served two terms and set the bar as to what Republicans want in a President. Ronald Reagan was a social conservative and yet evidently some Conservatives have marked distaste for social conservatives.

Rockntractor
04-11-2012, 07:54 PM
I hope you enjoy 8 years of Mitt.

I hope I enjoy at least 4 years . Now go floss your ass with the nearest fence!

DumbAss Tanker
04-11-2012, 08:20 PM
You folks calling Romney a liberal have drank the koolaid rather than do a little homework.[/B][/B]

Frankly, I can see him signing an Assault Weapons Ban II with a lackwit smile on his face, and then all the RKBA Conservatives would get a steady diet of "Well, why did you vote for him then?" from the fiscal (-only) Conservatives who seem to firmly in control of the Big GOP these days. He offers Libertarian Conservatives virtually nothing (Aside from the departure of Obama's appointees), and is only a modest improvement over the status quo for Social Conservatives (Again, excepting the spectre of Obama's appointment authority continuing for four more years). Fiscal Conservatives are pulling the party's strings, and they certainly love him, I personally have reservations about what he can deliver and how deep his Fiscal Conservativism really is on that, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief long enough to vote for him.

Chuck58
04-11-2012, 08:45 PM
For me, definitely not a Romney fan, I will vote for him rather than sit out this one because in my opinion this is the most important election in the history of this country.

All one has to do is look at what obama has done since taking office. All that was with an eye toward re-election. Imagine the next 4 when he's free of election worries.

Romney might not be as conservative as I like. He isn't even close. But, I don't see him as unpatriotic or unAmerican, or hating America.

I do see obama as all of those three. More and more, I'm convinced obama was groomed to be where he is for the express purpose of destroying this nation.

Janice
04-11-2012, 09:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q


For me, definitely not a Romney fan, I will vote for him rather than sit out this one because in my opinion this is the most important election in the history of this country.

All one has to do is look at what obama has done since taking office. All that was with an eye toward re-election. Imagine the next 4 when he's free of election worries.

Romney might not be as conservative as I like. He isn't even close. But, I don't see him as unpatriotic or unAmerican, or hating America.

I do see obama as all of those three. More and more, I'm convinced obama was groomed to be where he is for the express purpose of destroying this nation.

Yuppers.

m00
04-11-2012, 10:02 PM
I hope I enjoy at least 4 years . Now go floss your ass with the nearest fence!

I bet you a dollar that in 4 years, if you are still on this board, you will be shouting at the top of your fat little fingers that 2016 IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY

m00
04-11-2012, 10:03 PM
Frankly, I can see him signing an Assault Weapons Ban II with a lackwit smile on his face, and then all the RKBA Conservatives would get a steady diet of "Well, why did you vote for him then?" from the fiscal (-only) Conservatives who seem to firmly in control of the Big GOP these days. He offers Libertarian Conservatives virtually nothing (Aside from the departure of Obama's appointees), and is only a modest improvement over the status quo for Social Conservatives (Again, excepting the spectre of Obama's appointment authority continuing for four more years). Fiscal Conservatives are pulling the party's strings, and they certainly love him, I personally have reservations about what he can deliver and how deep his Fiscal Conservativism really is on that, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief long enough to vote for him.

Do you really think it's genuine fiscal conservatives pulling the strings, or more like Bush 43-style "Big Government Conservatives" who claim to be fiscal conservatives, because they increase the budget slightly slower than Democrats?

Retread
04-11-2012, 10:35 PM
Straight-forward answer to the original question: If you give a damn about this country, it is never ok to sit out on an election!

ABC in Georgia
04-11-2012, 10:45 PM
Jumping into the conversation again, for one more try ...


Originally Posted by Odysseus
Remember your oath, Marine. Support and defend the Constitution.

With your vote.

Ody, you are a good man! Straight to the point, as well!

marinejcksn ... one last post to you and anyone else in here that plan to "sit this one out."

I truly hope you understand the consequences of what you will be doing.

Mr. ABC and I were both born in England, grew up and married in Canada, moved to the US (through a job transfer while he was working for an American company in Canada) ... stayed and went through all it took ... to become American citizens.

We both truly believed then, and still do now, that this is the best country on the face of this earth in which to live.

The freedoms and rights afforded to it's citizens re the principles on which the founders based its beginnings are second to none!

We can not bear to think of losing all that those who came here before us, who generation after generation helped to build this country, fought, and many even died for ... to let it all crumble away, bit by bit, under this present administration.

As Americans, of all stripes, we must not let this group of folks in power at the moment continue on their path of destruction.

Hold your nose if you must, but please help to get us out of what many of us feel, will lead to our final "undoing" if Obama is re-elected.

~ ABC

Zeus
04-12-2012, 12:04 AM
ABC is a Damn Yankee :cool:

Me too but my journey started about 25 miles south of the 49th parallel.

Janice
04-12-2012, 12:57 AM
http://i.imgur.com/RDgrZ.jpg

Arroyo_Doble
04-12-2012, 08:31 AM
Well, it's a bit of work to make a case where Romney is the lesser of two evils. Such cases are made not by saying positive things about your candidate, but rather negative statements on the other. Each election the candidates are getting more outrageous, so the negativity has to become more extreme.

I've said this before, but recently I went and watched all the Reagan/Mondale debates on youtube. Both of them seem incredibly qualified with coherent (but differing) visions for the country, and they make thoughtful and civilized points to back up their arguments with occasionally some friendly ribbing. It's amazing how far things have sunk.

We're frogs in the pan.


At some point, we (generic, not specific) were effectively bifurcated into tribes. I am not sure when that happened but I believe it started with the marketing of political disagreement; just another way to gather eyeballs for the soap you are selling. If I were more of a cynic (if that were possible), I would say it was a deliberate action by the Ruling Class to ensure we are kept in our place while still given the illusion of having a say in how we are governed. Either way, we now see mere political disagreement in apocalyptic terms. 3.5 points on the top marginal rate is the difference between socialism and a free market; Medicare reform is throwing granny off a cliff; a draw down of military forces at the end of two conflicts is gutting the military and surrendering to the terrorists. Death panels, a war on women, bailouts, job creators, vote for the other guy and civilization will collapse. Buy gold. It is all so manipulative and urgent.

I think the absurdity of it hit me hard in the 2004 election when liberals were spun up about George W. Bush almost (but not quite) as the conservative tribe is about Obama. There was such a conviction over the black and white nature of that contest but really, it was just Skull and Bones class of '66 vs Skull and Bones class of '68.

I would quote Tocqueville but I am in a good mood so I think I'll use Calvin and Hobbes instead:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/Bok_Tukalo/fun/calvin.jpg

Molon Labe
04-12-2012, 12:13 PM
And if enough people do the same, then this will be the second consecutive election won by Obama. Is that what you want?



The answer to your question is ....... Nope....NO and HELL NO.

And your assumption is if I don't vote I somehow "want" Obama is ridiculous.

He's won already.

The fact that the stupid GOP decided that McCain and now Romney would lead us over the last 4 years is also evidence that they "want" Obama to win as well. Why don't you direct that ire at the "stupid party".

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 12:20 PM
The answer to your question is ....... Nope....NO and HELL NO.

And your assumption is if I don't vote I somehow "want" Obama is ridiculous.

He's won already.

The fact that the stupid GOP decided that McCain and now Romney would lead us over the last 4 years is also evidence that they "want" Obama to win as well. Why don't you direct that ire at the "stupid party".

:nono:

Average Voter
04-12-2012, 01:33 PM
I know how you feel. I'll have to vote for Romney then go get drunk. In 2012, just like in 2008, my choice for president is either voting for a good solid Democrat or an America-hating Marxist. I'd vote for a dried up dog turd before I'd vote for Obama.

It is very dispiriting to have yet another lackluster, democrat-light, big government, northeast liberal, establishment squish as the Republican candidate. But vote for the best choice available to you. Then do what you can at the local, state, and national levels to oust the RINOS in the GOP and put in solid conservatives. It took decades to get into this pickle. Unfortunately it will take several election cycles to reverse the situation.

Get involved in the local GOP party.
Become a party precinct captain.
Become a party delegate.
Donate directly to real conservative candidates wherever they are in the county. DON'T donate money to the GOP and let the establishment types decide where your campaign contributions go.
Donate to conservative candidates that primary the establishment RINOs.

Molon Labe
04-12-2012, 03:10 PM
:nono:

Hey...I hope I'm wrong Rock....but let me make sure I undestand this correctly

The GOP nominated McCain in 08........who beat Romney solidly..............Then McCain got trounced by Barry.


And now the GOP thinks it should nominate the loser in 08' Romney........Because they think he can beat Obama?

:smilie_wall:

Molon Labe
04-12-2012, 03:13 PM
Get involved in the local GOP party.
Become a party precinct captain.
Become a party delegate.
Donate directly to real conservative candidates wherever they are in the county. DON'T donate money to the GOP and let the establishment types decide where your campaign contributions go.
Donate to conservative candidates that primary the establishment RINOs.

This^ If your sick of it then GET INVOLVED

What I've been saying all along. You'll find most people think that pulling the lever is the single most important civic duty act you can do, when this is how the system really works.

If more were involved at the local level, then the idiots couldn't stand against it. Sadly there aren't really too many who are into Civic action. Just civic talk and a November field trip to the voting booth.

Arroyo_Doble
04-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Sadly there aren't really too many who are into Civic action. Just civic talk and a November field trip to the voting booth.

Which makes it easier for those of us who are.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 03:48 PM
Hey...I hope I'm wrong Rock....but let me make sure I undestand this correctly

The GOP nominated McCain in 08........who beat Romney solidly..............Then McCain got trounced by Barry.


And now the GOP thinks it should nominate the loser in 08' Romney........Because they think he can beat Obama?

:smilie_wall:

Don't think the thought hasn't crossed my mind, let's just hope for the best which is particularly hard for me because experience has made me somewhat of a pessimist.

marinejcksn
04-12-2012, 06:02 PM
It is of utmost importance that Obama be "dethroned" Marine, this country can not afford 4 more years of Obama. Literally, we just cannot afford it.

We couldn't afford the doubling of the debt under Bush either. But we found a way to survive.

Look, all griping and whining aside...I'll probably end up voting for Romney if the VP choice is solid. Depends on how much I have to drink that day.

Sad news is, 2 of my aunts and my grandmother are diehard Obama drones. So their 3 votes cancel mine out. :blue:

Side-note: If Romney goes on national TV and tells Hilary Rosen where she can stick it for attacking his wife, then I'll stand up and salute Mitt. You just don't go after families.

Hawkgirl
04-12-2012, 06:24 PM
We couldn't afford the doubling of the debt under Bush either. But we found a way to survive.


We did survive after Bush, but will we survive after 2 Obama terms? We will survive physically...but the country will be in financial duress...you can count on it. Obamacare estimates alone were way off...the projected price is actually three times what was originally cited by the administration. Unemployment will only go higher as Obama is not giving companies any incentive to hire. Obamacare will cripple the healthcare sector. Gas will continue to rise because Obama won't approve off shore drilling or approve the Keystone Pipeline. The deficit will only increase even more as you can expect more stimilus money handed out with no return on investment. I can go on and on....but I won't. It's ultimately up to you.

Janice
04-12-2012, 07:10 PM
http://i.imgur.com/vwkYJ.jpg

Debt under 0bama is by design (to "fundamentally transform" this nation) to bring this nation to ruin. This was not the case under Bush (0bama has spent in 3 years what it took Bush to spend in 8 years).

Can it be stated any plainer than that?

ABC in Georgia
04-12-2012, 08:28 PM
Sad news is, 2 of my aunts and my grandmother are diehard Obama drones. So their 3 votes cancel mine out. :blue:

Hey Jcksn ...

The good news is, there may be many families out there that have both 2 grandmothers, and 3 aunts that would help to cancel out *your* family members votes! :biggrin-new:

Ever think of that?

~ ABC

JB
04-12-2012, 09:12 PM
Sad news is, 2 of my aunts and my grandmother are diehard Obama drones. So their 3 votes cancel mine out. :blue:So do some of that adapting and overcoming shit. Get them out of town that day (after you vote). Make them think the election is the 13th. Burn down their polling place. Something. :biggrin-new:

Odysseus
04-12-2012, 10:50 PM
The answer to your question is ....... Nope....NO and HELL NO.

And your assumption is if I don't vote I somehow "want" Obama is ridiculous.

He's won already.

The fact that the stupid GOP decided that McCain and now Romney would lead us over the last 4 years is also evidence that they "want" Obama to win as well. Why don't you direct that ire at the "stupid party".

Because I'm more concerned about defeating the "evil party."

My assumption is that if you don't vote, then you permit Obama to win. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. But don't pretend that you are somehow being noble and pure by not voting for the lesser of two evils. My children can't afford your posturing.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 11:02 PM
Hey Jcksn ...

The good news is, there may be many families out there that have both 2 grandmothers, and 3 aunts that would help to cancel out *your* family members votes! :biggrin-new:

Ever think of that?

~ ABC

And there you have it, the solution seems to be that we cancel out more of their votes than they do ours!

Arroyo_Doble
04-12-2012, 11:11 PM
See m00? Evil. Why won't you thing of the children?


How can you take that delusion seriously?

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 11:15 PM
See m00? Evil. Why won't you thing of the children?


How can you take that delusion seriously?

How do you thing of the children Ohyo?

marinejcksn
04-12-2012, 11:48 PM
One thing I can't forget...

When the GOP had the House, the Senate and the Presidency....they gave us:

1. No Child Left Behind
2. The PATRIOT Act
3. Medicare Part D

Are we just supposed to forget about this party's stupidity? Just asking...:rotfl:

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 11:59 PM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/dr-evil.jpg

Adam Wood
04-13-2012, 02:14 AM
One thing I can't forget...

When the GOP had the House, the Senate and the Presidency....they gave us:

1. No Child Left Behind
2. The PATRIOT Act
3. Medicare Part D

Are we just supposed to forget about this party's stupidity? Just asking...:rotfl:That's a fair point.

I knew when I voted for Bush that I was not getting George McGovern. I knew that he was not an absolute rock-ribbed conservative, but none were running, so I had to choose someone.

For me, it came down to Supreme Court picks. I remember during the GOP debates I was leaning for McCain (not because I particularly liked him, but because he just seemed like the least bad choice at the time), and there was a question about picking the nine wise souls. McCain stammered out something about "balance" and keeping the court non-controversial or some such rubbish, and Bush said, loud and clear, that he would only appoint strict constructionists to the bench. At that moment, I became a Bush voter. And no matter how else he disappointed me with some of his stuff, he stuck to that promise, the most lasting legacy most Presidents can leave behind.

As for your enumerateds, well, there's good and there's bad there. I didn't like NCLB, and I don't like NCLB, because I fundamentally believe that schools belong on a state and (more than state) local level, and the feds should just stay the hell out of it. At the same time, there was a nation-wide desire to improve test scores and compete more globally. And though I don't like NCLB, I have to admit that it did indeed increase test scores. Maybe that's a worthy goal and maybe it isn't, but the fact remains that NCLB was about raising test scores and it has indeed done so. So that can, at least in theory, be chalked up as a "success story" of "compassionate conservatism," which in retrospect was an idiotic buzzword, but at the time was relatively revolutionary idea. We see now that it wasn't such a great idea overall, but them's the breaks sometimes, I suppose, the road to Hell being a shovel-ready project and all of that.

As for the PATRIOT Act, I'm still convinced that just gets a bad rap because of media coverage. I've read the USA PATRIOT Act cover-to-cover, and more importantly, I've sat down and compared what the legislative changes were under that act. The simple reality is that for all of the bitching and moaning, the PATRIOT Act actually changed very, very little from a legal standpoint. Pretty much everything in there was already on the law books well before its passage. All this law did was codify what was already law into one place. It's more convenient for law enforcement agencies now, and it's all together in one handy-dandy law that effectively solidifies expansion of federal power, but there really is very little there that is new. As such, I just don't see the PATRIOT Act as all that big of a deal, certainly not as big of a deal as is made of it.

Medicare D? I thought it was a bad idea at the time and said so at the time. This is the very embodiment of "compassionate conservatism," and a macro example of why that idea, nice as it is, doesn't work. The whole notion of out-liberaling liberals just plain doesn't work, because what it has done is just radicalized the Left. Medicare D is a technical success, in that it has not spent nearly as much much as was predicted, but that's really not saying much. If I tell you I make a million dollars a year, and it turns out that I actually make $20K per year, but I manage to grab enough OT to eke out $25K a year, then I'm $5000 to the good, but that still doesn't get me a million dollar salary. It just means that I am marginally less of a fraud than I made myself out to be. Technically, it's a success, but that's really not saying much.

Janice
04-13-2012, 02:20 AM
One thing I can't forget...

When the GOP had the House, the Senate and the Presidency....they gave us:

1. No Child Left Behind
2. The PATRIOT Act
3. Medicare Part D

Are we just supposed to forget about this party's stupidity? Just asking...:rotfl:

I dont know how many times I have pointed out that it is the eunuchs in the GOP leadership that have their collective heads up their ... rear sides. So the effort now is for US (you and me)... the Conservative BASE, to TAKE BACK the current repuke party from the RINOS. They fear us almost as much as the Dems. How hard is this to understand?? This is why each and every one of our votes counts.

Ggrrhhhh.... every election year, myself and others have repeated this ... since Bush 41... and yet ... here we are yet again. Its not rocket science. Really it isnt.

The GOP leadership hated Reagan. And they have knowingly or unknowingly teamed up with the Dems and the media against every true conservative that has ever run since. They are determined to not let conservatives (the base) take this party back again. THAT is what we are up against. Just think about it ... and it will all make sense. THINK dammit, THINK!

http://i52.tinypic.com/fkz51w.jpg

Molon Labe
04-13-2012, 11:00 AM
Look, all griping and whining aside...I'll probably end up voting for Romney if the VP choice is solid. Depends on how much I have to drink that day.


I may do the same....Drink about 4 of these. But not too much cause I don't want to get to the booth and think I see rOMney and pull for ObaMa

http://www.kegworks.com/images/blogpost/ayinger-celebrator.jpg

m00
04-13-2012, 03:47 PM
See m00? Evil. Why won't you thing of the children?


How can you take that delusion seriously?

Well, I think we can survive 4 more years of Obama, as much as we survived the first 4 years of Obama. Or the last 4 years of Bush. Empires don't get destroyed in a day any more than they get built in a day. Our currency is the currency reserve of the world. Our military is bigger and stronger than all other countries' combined. Our GDP (PPP) per capita is in the top 10, and we're only beaten out by oil states and oddballs. By all metrics we are still an exceptional nation, and short of detonating nukes on US soil, Obama isn't going to destroy the country in four years.

But you know, I tend to think what we can't survive is another 15-20 years of this slow, steady decline that has been happening since the late 90s after the tech bubble burst. Clinton/Newt was the last time we had a balanced budget. We're headed off a cliff long term, and I don't accept the argument that the only way to stop the guy jamming the accelerator is to elect the guy strongly pressing the accelerator. Sadly, what I hear from Republicans is that first we prevent Obama from being elected and then we can worry about reigning in Romney. Of course, reality doesn't work like this.

I guarantee you in 2016 the Republican establishment is going to put up someone like Olympia Snowe and everyone on this board will say how we MUST vote for her in order to prevent Nancy Pelosi from being elected president. Enough is enough.

mike128
04-13-2012, 05:14 PM
If the Republican establishment already has your vote for their guy, what possible reason do they have to listen after the election?....

....Am I the only one that sees this pattern?
No. I have been talking about how the Republican 'establishment' has been forcing liberal candidates down our throats since 2003. And it's been going on even before that.

As long as the Republican 'establishment' knows that they have our votes locked up for their hand-picked liberal candidates, they're never going to give a damn about our issues. In fact, I'm a lot more pissed off at the Republican 'establishment' forcing liberals like Romney down our throats, than I am about Flip Romney winning the nomination.

mike128
04-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Romney is a liberal.
My point exactly. And I'm sick and tired of some on this forum telling me that I *want* Obama to win, just because I refuse to vote for another liberal to get him out.

Candidates for political office have to earn my vote. It's not something that I just give away because they're not the other guy. If both candidates suck, then niether of them get my vote, period.

I am also considering voting third party, instead of sitting out. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Janice
04-13-2012, 06:50 PM
Theres just a weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit of difference between a liberal (little L) repuke and a Flaming Marxist.

But if that is not obvious by now then ... the left has definitely won the argument.. and the day.

JB
04-13-2012, 07:51 PM
Are we just supposed to forget about this party's stupidity? Just asking.Just sit it out dude. Or vote for Paul, which is what I think you really want to do.

Retread
04-13-2012, 09:13 PM
....................

I am also considering voting third party, instead of sitting out. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Yes, you have. You're going to get the little o elected just like you want to and you might as well quit lying about it.

Wei Wu Wei
04-13-2012, 09:26 PM
I've been struggling with this for a while now. It's only been made more difficult since Santorum suspended his campaign. Background information; I'm a young man (28), Iraq war veteran, happily divorced with no kids. I've been told repeatedly that unless I support ABO this November, I might as well vote for the Socialist that is President Obama. Frankly, I'm torn.

I held my nose and voted for Bush in 2004, knowing that Kerry was an elitist moron. I held it again in 2006 and voted for Specter after Toomey lost in the Pa primary. 2008 was a lost cause for Conservative principles (Presidentially) and I couldn't bring myself to vote for McCain.

Which brings me to my question: Is it wrong to not vote for Romney? I've heard repeatedly that if I don't vote for him, I'm throwing my vote away and might as well vote for Obama. Well, I'm NOT voting for Obama. I respect the office but Hate his bonehead policies. But realistically....will Romney be that much different? Neither one holds the principled line that Goldwater and Reagan did. I'm personally tired of being offered the less of two evils.

What do you think? Any advise?

It doesn't make that much of a difference. You're right, it's all media trumpeting and spectacle.

There won't be substantial difference between the two candidates.

You should shift your focus to self-education, reading and learning about issues, and talking to people in your community. Focus your efforts at the grassroots level. Find people who are willing to really discuss the issues rather than just play a big stupid team game.

Clearly you and I see things differently, but I think we can agree that the political process in this country has been reduced to a simple empty gesture. It's a false choice that gives millions of people the feeling of having some control, when in reality the nation is controlled by special interests. Representative government isn't functioning in this nation.

People will make a huge deal about the election being "the most important election EVER!!", so that anyone who participates in the empty gesture feels like they are doing something important, like they are making a difference. They feel like they've done their part to "save the nation from DOOM!" so they are pacified for another 4 years.

Save your energy, and direct it towards education, extreme critical thinking, questioning everything, and making connections with people.

I spend a lot of time in my day-to-day life engaging people in respectful dialogues about our situation today. We share reading material, share ideas, and bring different points of view. One woman I speak to every single day is a steadfast conservative and she provides some of the most dynamic and interesting conversations. I'm sure you know this already, but people in real life are far less asshole-ish and willing to talk (none of my conservative friends are rude or disrespectful, and we find each other quite pleasant to be around).

This is where real political change happens, not from showing up and participating in a political superbowl. Rah Rah Rah! Go Team :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
04-13-2012, 09:28 PM
So far, with all due respect, the most I've heard is I HAVE to vote for the Giant Douche over the Turd Sandwich because if I don't....AMERICA WONT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS! At least that's the line the toe sucker Dick Morris is peddling.

Am I the only person insulted by this absurd line of idiotic thinking? This country has survived:

The Revolutionary War, The Constitutional Convention, A President (Jackson) who basically told the Supreme Court to suck it, The Civil War, A Partially-Fascist President (Wilson), World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Recessions, Stock Market Crashes, Presidential Assassinations and the bailout of some of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet.

Are we really supposed to have so little faith in our fellow man to believe that if Obama squeaks through again that the country will crumble like the Roman Empire?

Am I missing something here?

good post

Rockntractor
04-13-2012, 09:39 PM
Thanks Wei, if you agreeing with him doesn't convince him he is wrong, nothing will!

Zathras
04-13-2012, 09:45 PM
No. I have been talking about how the Republican 'establishment' has been forcing liberal candidates down our throats since 2003. And it's been going on even before that.

As long as the Republican 'establishment' knows that they have our votes locked up for their hand-picked liberal candidates, they're never going to give a damn about our issues. In fact, I'm a lot more pissed off at the Republican 'establishment' forcing liberals like Romney down our throats, than I am about Flip Romney winning the nomination.

Ah, more lies from CU's faux conservative troll.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/HeroesAtWork/deadhorse.jpg

Janice
04-13-2012, 10:32 PM
I spend a lot of time in my day-to-day life engaging people in respectful dialogues about our situation today. We share reading material, share ideas, and bring different points of view. One woman I speak to every single day is a steadfast conservative and she provides some of the most dynamic and interesting conversations. I'm sure you know this already, but people in real life are far less asshole-ish and willing to talk (none of my conservative friends are rude or disrespectful, and we find each other quite pleasant to be around).



This is basically what I do too (because my current job as a self employed computer repair person, I meet and talk to a lot of people on a personal level). And my liberal friends are similar to your conservative friends in regards to good conversation.

Lanie
04-14-2012, 07:44 AM
Maybe. He might be hungry. You never know.

lol.

10 foot.

Lanie
04-14-2012, 07:45 AM
Thanks Wei, if you agreeing with him doesn't convince him he is wrong, nothing will!

So, if I tell everybody the night before the election I'm voting for Romney, will it convince everybody here that they're wrong to vote for him?

Rockntractor
04-14-2012, 10:06 AM
So, if I tell everybody the night before the election I'm voting for Romney, will it convince everybody here that they're wrong to vote for him?

You're not a communist, you're just silly some times.

marinejcksn
04-16-2012, 08:20 PM
Obama needs to be beat.

But Mitty is going to lose. Bet your money now...it's like Dr. Savage always says....it's a 2 party system and 3 card monte....there's no pea under the shell. Obammy is a lock.....it's 8 years repubes....8 years demms....:cold:

Just pray we make it through this storm. I pray to God obammy loses....but I wouldn't put my $$$ on it.

JoeKwonDo
04-16-2012, 09:51 PM
I just don't see Romney being drastically different than Obama.....

His flip-flops bother me because I personally don't care if he's pro-choice or pro-life. Abortion and gay marriage and these social issues that Republicans repeatedly go to the well with are not going to get the job done any more. I just wish Romney would grow a spine and be solid. It doesn't speak well of his character when he's willing to run all over the country pretending to be everything to everyone. Isn't that EXACTLY what Obama did in 2008?

And lets drop the rhetoric and be intellectually honest: Obama has yet to materialize into the Socialist Monster we've been told he is, at least so far. He violated the constitution with recess appointments, passed the NDAA and has railroaded through legislation. Is that any different than some of the Constitutional abandonments under Bush? Obama may drink the marxist koolaid, but so far he's basically been a left wing crony capitalist.



Wow, not much difference... Really :biggrin-new:

I read these flip flop arguments all the time and often wonder how many people are there that have all of their opinions set and never change their mind? That has to be one boring person in my book.

Everybody wants the perfect candidate and the left with Obama and his veto proof legislature is as close as I ever seen in my life. And look at the damage they have wrought! If you are being intellectually honest, he has made a hard lurch left and these deficits could be the chicken bone in the country's throat. How revered Reagan is today wasn't remotely how he was going in. Just like Bush's first term there was concern he was not upto it until a few events like Air Traffic Controllers strike and him getting shot. What he and Bush had in common is simple. When events needed them, they rose to the occasion.

So to address the thread title. If you are dumb enough to sit this out, don't come in whining nd crying if we get stuck with four more years of a no one to account to Obama.

JoeKwonDo
04-16-2012, 10:00 PM
We've donated to Newt and to Santorum. Do I like Romney? Better than Obama and Holder. I'll vote for Romney if for no other reason than to get a new attorney general. Romney might be less conservative than I'd prefer, but he's not the progressive that Obama is. I'm sick of the class warfare and the race-baiting of the Obama administration. I'm sick of the bowing to the unions and to our enemies.

I do not think that Romney will do any of the above. I just plain don't agree with Moo or Molon Labe. There is a difference between viewpoints of the candidates.

Drudge just has a piece that Holder is praising the Rev Al. Please. I've had enough of this. For folks to sit it out because their candidate didn't win isn't in the best interests of the country, in my humble opinion. There's liable to be nothing left if we wait for 2016 to get our favorite candidate nominated. Everyone has their right to their own opinion. I have a right to mine, which is to defeat Obama at the voting polls. There will be enough voters w/o ID's voting multiple times and those voters coming from the grave to vote for Obama. We can't have people sitting home and pouting.

Great post but one thing, I don't know why but I got a good feeling about Romney. Call it wishful thinking, but we are due for a winner.

ABC in Georgia
04-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Obama needs to be beat.

Just pray we make it through this storm. I pray to God obammy loses....but I wouldn't put my $$$ on it.

Well then darlin' forget your dollars, and at least put your your a$$ on the line by voting for Romney ... and help to get this Obamanation outta here?

We can discuss and settle the "finer" points later!!! :smile-new:

~ ABC

JoeKwonDo
04-16-2012, 10:06 PM
Well then darlin' forget your dollars, and at least put your your a$$ on the line by voting for Romney ... and help to get this Obamanation outta here?

We can discuss and settle the "finer" points later!!! :smile-new:

~ ABC

Great advice

Deadhead
04-17-2012, 12:41 AM
Yes, it's perfectly acceptable to sit this one out. Think of it this way; if America does end up going to hell, either from Obama or Romney being in the white house, you can look back on it and say that none of it was your fault.

What you really need to do is not be a little gaywad and act like deciding not to vote carries the same amount of weight as deciding to terminate a pregnancy or get a sex change. Srsly, don't be one of those people. Nobody likes those people. It's just an election, there'll be another one four years down the road

Peace:smile-new:

Odysseus
04-17-2012, 02:55 PM
Yes, it's perfectly acceptable to sit this one out. Think of it this way; if America does end up going to hell, either from Obama or Romney being in the white house, you can look back on it and say that none of it was your fault.

What you really need to do is not be a little gaywad and act like deciding not to vote carries the same amount of weight as deciding to terminate a pregnancy or get a sex change. Srsly, don't be one of those people. Nobody likes those people. It's just an election, there'll be another one four years down the road

Peace:smile-new:

It's not your fault that America goes to hell either way, but at least you have some say over the rate of descent if you vote.

ABC in Georgia
04-17-2012, 07:07 PM
... but at least you have some say over the rate of descent if you vote.

Uh-oh!

Please don't use that word *professor mine!* ... :love_heart:

It makes me nervous, and not only *I*, but others in here as well need as much hope and encouragement as we can get for this upcoming election.

My biggest fear is that the Dems will do all they can to cheat their way to victory, even more so this time for sure.

Whether or not Romney can stop or slow down the slide ... at least he is not a socialist/commie/USA hating /Liberal-type American ... as is you-know-who!!!

~ ABC

FeebMaster
04-17-2012, 09:08 PM
Nothing wrong with sitting out an election.

You could even argue that it's the preferred course of action in many cases.

ABC in Georgia
04-17-2012, 09:28 PM
Nothing wrong with sitting out an election.

You could even argue that it's the preferred course of action in many cases.

Absolutely brilliant, Feebmaster...

So long as you are referring to the koolaid drinking DEM voters!

Somehow, I don't get the impression that you are, however. Perhaps I am mistaken, since I really don't know anything about you.

~ ABC

FeebMaster
04-17-2012, 09:51 PM
Absolutely brilliant, Feebmaster...

So long as you are referring to the koolaid drinking DEM voters!

Somehow, I don't get the impression that you are, however. Perhaps I am mistaken, since I really don't know anything about you.

~ ABC

Well, assuming a person wants smaller government and isn't falling for the quadrennial lies about holding the line until the next time, it seems the best course of action. You get a clear conscience since you didn't vote for bigger government. Plus, you drove the voter participation numbers down a tiny fraction of a percent, which makes it slightly more amusing when whoever wins talks about having the mandate of the people, or whatever phrase they're using these days, when they got elected by less than a quarter of the eligible voters. So you get a bit of a net personal benefit and it's more or less a wash for the country as a whole.

Or, I guess you could always go out and vote libertarian, or something.

ABC in Georgia
04-18-2012, 08:56 PM
Fine, FeebMaster ... do and think, as you like.

And be thankful at least for *now* while you still are able to have the luxury of "choosing" how you will be governed in your day to day life.

Whether or not you take advantage of it, is up to you.

I love this country and the opportunity it affords us ... to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ... is still available to us all.

If Obama is re-elected, I very much doubt that it will be the same for my grandchildren.

He is bit by bit, doing his best as he promised, to "fundamentally change this country" ... and I for one, did not think for one moment ... that he meant for the *better!*

Did you?

~ ABC

JB
04-18-2012, 09:04 PM
Well <snip>Feebs, you anarchist bastard. Where've you been hiding? It's election season, pick up the pace.

ABC in Georgia
04-18-2012, 09:17 PM
Oops!

FeebMaster, forgot to add, that occasionally I just can't resist being nasty, and must ask ...

What does the "Feeb" part of your sign-in name stand for, Feeble-minded, perhaps? ... :evil-grin:

Just askin' darlin!

~ ABC

Retread
04-18-2012, 09:45 PM
Oops!

FeebMaster, forgot to add, that occasionally I just can't resist being nasty, and must ask ...

What does the "Feeb" part of your sign-in name stand for, Feeble-minded, perhaps? ... :evil-grin:

Just askin' darlin!

~ ABC

Excellent question.

FeebMaster
04-19-2012, 01:17 AM
Fine, FeebMaster ... do and think, as you like.

And be thankful at least for *now* while you still are able to have the luxury of "choosing" how you will be governed in your day to day life.

Whether or not you take advantage of it, is up to you.

I love this country and the opportunity it affords us ... to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ... is still available to us all.

If Obama is re-elected, I very much doubt that it will be the same for my grandchildren.

He is bit by bit, doing his best as he promised, to "fundamentally change this country" ... and I for one, did not think for one moment ... that he meant for the *better!*

Did you?

~ ABC


It is mathematically impossible for me to choose how I want to be governed in my day to day life in the election booth.

I hope you enjoy whatever choice you make for yourself. Unfortunately, the rest of us will have to live with it as well.






Oops!

FeebMaster, forgot to add, that occasionally I just can't resist being nasty, and must ask ...

What does the "Feeb" part of your sign-in name stand for, Feeble-minded, perhaps? ... :evil-grin:

Just askin' darlin!

~ ABC


I skipped a lot of school in my misspent youth. I got a reputation for being unhealthy.

FeebMaster
04-19-2012, 01:18 AM
Feebs, you anarchist bastard. Where've you been hiding? It's election season, pick up the pace.

Trolling arfcom mostly, when I'm not working.

ABC in Georgia
04-19-2012, 01:06 PM
It is mathematically impossible for me to choose how I want to be governed in my day to day life in the election booth.

I hope you enjoy whatever choice you make for yourself. Unfortunately, the rest of us will have to live with it as well.

Wow! That stops me in my tracks.

Have never dealt with an Anarchist in my life.

No fair, Feeb! ... :smile-new: Your avatar should at least have been a ragged black circle with an "A" in it, or something.

That being the case here ... I have no desire to engage you in further conversation. Not really being insulting. Just, as Obama would say,"That is above my paygrade" or however it was he put it.

The philosophy you embrace is totally alien to me. It makes me laugh actually, at myself, I had no idea of what I was stepping into.

Will leave you to folks far better equipped than I, to deal with you.

~ ABC

Generation Why?
04-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Yes it is ok. As an American you have the right to vote and elect those to run the country. You also have the right to choose not to vote, just like someone has the right to choose not to own a gun. Not the popular answer, but the actual answer.

Rockntractor
04-19-2012, 06:35 PM
Yes it is ok. As an American you have the right to vote and elect those to run the country. You also have the right to choose not to vote, just like someone has the right to choose not to own a gun. Not the popular answer, but the actual answer.

The question never was whether or not you had a right too.

Janice
04-19-2012, 08:13 PM
As an American you have the right to vote ...


Umm... well actually no. There is no such "right" in the Constitution/ Bill of Rights. And for good reason too if you think about it. Now on the State level some States have put language into their State Constitutions to that affect. Not all, but some. Which would affect local/ state elections. That little biddey is a complete misnomer. But there is no such thing as a "right to vote" at the federal level (national elections) despite how the left has dutifully brainwashed generations of Americans thru government (mis)education or as I from time to time refer to as "child abuse".

I dont think this is germane or was ever an issue in this thread. People are so woefully uninformed or misinformed today. And that by design. But its really for another topic.

ABC in Georgia
04-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Umm... well actually no. There is no such "right" in the Constitution/ Bill of Rights.


Thanks Janice.

Here ... Generation Why ... https://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-pocket-constitution/

for only $2.95 you can get a copy of The Constitution (96 pages) which also includes the Bill of Rights and The Declaration of Independence.

You need to avail yourself of this info, if you wish to discuss it in here.

I have a feeling that you are very young, perhaps under the age of 30? I do not know.

At any rate, how can you lose by getting a copy?

It is by far the best education out there, not to mention the *cheapest* as to what these United States of America are based on, and the rights ... endowed by our Creator ... that you are entitled to enjoy.

Nothing more ... nothing less.

~ ABC

Janice
04-19-2012, 09:27 PM
...
for only $2.95 you can get a copy of The Constitution (96 pages) which also includes the Bill of Rights and The Declaration of Independence.
...


Good advice ABC. You can also get it for free if you subscribe to The Heritage Foundation (http://www.heritage.org/) or to the Hillsdale College (http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis.asp) newsletter Imprimis, as I do. :cool:

JB
04-19-2012, 09:34 PM
Trolling arfcom mostly, when I'm not working.You still off the smokes?

FeebMaster
04-19-2012, 10:04 PM
You still off the smokes?

On and off. I've been mercilessly abusing my body with long hours at work, too little sleep, and not enough exercise, and too much arguing with republicans.

FeebMaster
04-19-2012, 10:06 PM
Wow! That stops me in my tracks.

Have never dealt with an Anarchist in my life.

No fair, Feeb! ... :smile-new: Your avatar should at least have been a ragged black circle with an "A" in it, or something.

That being the case here ... I have no desire to engage you in further conversation. Not really being insulting. Just, as Obama would say,"That is above my paygrade" or however it was he put it.

The philosophy you embrace is totally alien to me. It makes me laugh actually, at myself, I had no idea of what I was stepping into.

Will leave you to folks far better equipped than I, to deal with you.

~ ABC


You'd be surprised. It's not like there's a uniform.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2627902.jpg

But don't worry, I'm not really interested in converting anyone.

JB
04-19-2012, 10:10 PM
Have never dealt with an Anarchist in my life.For the record, I goof with Feebs about being an anarchist. I don't know the full spectrum of his political views.

Generation Why?
04-20-2012, 12:22 PM
For fucks sake, I'll reword it.


You do not have to vote. If you don't like either candidate, don't vote for either. It is that simple. I am sorry I don't share the same ABO mentality as everyone else on the board. With that said, I will not be voting for Barry. Now, back to the original question: Vote for the person you want to be President. It is that simple. Regardless of party or public stature. Vote for who you want to be President. Fuck everyone else's thoughts. They are not you. No one understands you and your needs better than you do. If you think Ralph Nader is the best option then vote for him. If you don't like any of the options, then don't vote. You are not required to vote.

Retread
04-20-2012, 03:32 PM
Those who sit it out will be responsible if the little o gets back in.

Rockntractor
04-20-2012, 03:39 PM
For fucks sake, I'll reword it.


You do not have to vote. If you don't like either candidate, don't vote for either. It is that simple. I am sorry I don't share the same ABO mentality as everyone else on the board. With that said, I will not be voting for Barry. Now, back to the original question: Vote for the person you want to be President. It is that simple. Regardless of party or public stature. Vote for who you want to be President. Fuck everyone else's thoughts. They are not you. No one understands you and your needs better than you do. If you think Ralph Nader is the best option then vote for him. If you don't like any of the options, then don't vote. You are not required to vote.

You owe it to yourself to increase your fiber intake.

Generation Why?
04-20-2012, 04:06 PM
You owe it to yourself to increase your fiber intake.

I am fairly regular.

marinejcksn
05-01-2012, 11:42 PM
I think I'm ready to vote for Romney. The only hope we have is to use the Tea Party to keep him in line....but at this point I'm convinced my nephew would be better than this guy

Rockntractor
05-01-2012, 11:49 PM
The only hope we have is to use the Tea Party to keep him in line....

Very true, he seems to be a populist and we need to make sure ours is the loudest voice.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-02-2012, 06:42 AM
So far, with all due respect, the most I've heard is I HAVE to vote for the Giant Douche over the Turd Sandwich because if I don't....AMERICA WONT SURVIVE ANOTHER FOUR YEARS! At least that's the line the toe sucker Dick Morris is peddling.

Am I the only person insulted by this absurd line of idiotic thinking? This country has survived:

The Revolutionary War, The Constitutional Convention, A President (Jackson) who basically told the Supreme Court to suck it, The Civil War, A Partially-Fascist President (Wilson), World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Recessions, Stock Market Crashes, Presidential Assassinations and the bailout of some of the most corrupt organizations on the Planet.

Are we really supposed to have so little faith in our fellow man to believe that if Obama squeaks through again that the country will crumble like the Roman Empire?

Am I missing something here?



With a large amount of due respect, you ARE overlooking at least one thing here, and that is the courts. One of the most insidious ways the left has pushed it's agenda is by placing extreme leftists on the bench.

Last election, we had the chance to undo MASSIVE damage to liberty and freedom that the Supreme Court has inflicted on our nation, but instead we got Sotomayor and Kagen. Now instead of having NO QUESTION that the Supreme court will turn down Obama care, and uphold 2nd amendment rights, we now have a SERIOUS threat that our freedoms - especially on these issues will be infringed.

This election, the consequences are MUCH worse, because instead of replacing two liberal justices with two more liberal justices, we are likely to be replacing at least one of the conservative justices.

So instead of having a 4-4 split with Justice Kennedy siding often with the liberals, there will be a 5-3 split and even if Kennedy votes like the Constitution would require, it won't matter.

Unlike a President who we get to throw out in 4 years, Supreme Court justices are appointed for LIFE - and in case you hadn't noticed, Obama has not only been appointing RADICAL anti-Constitution justices, he has been appointing YOUNG justices who are likely to still be on the court 25 -30 years from now.

A TON of damage can be done in that time period.

If you look back, you will see that I was an EARLY supporter of Santorum - I think the ONLY one on this board - but we cannot be purists in this case - the consequences are just too high - and yes our nations very existence as a free nation might well be at stake.

Gina
05-02-2012, 11:37 AM
I am also considering voting third party, instead of sitting out.

Same difference.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-09-2012, 05:23 AM
Hey...I hope I'm wrong Rock....but let me make sure I undestand this correctly

The GOP nominated McCain in 08........who beat Romney solidly..............Then McCain got trounced by Barry.


And now the GOP thinks it should nominate the loser in 08' Romney........Because they think he can beat Obama?

:smilie_wall:


The GOP is changing - the conservatives ARE taking control back. Just look at all of the incumbents we have thrown out - in 2010 and now we are cleansing our ranks by getting rid of Lugar and liberals like him.

Sure the leadership is still in place, but they are getting old - and many of them are now gone and being replaced with the tea party type candidates. Changing a party's direction takes time and patience - soon people like Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, and Jim DeMint will be in control, and if we keep working MORE conservative (both in quantity and quality) will follow.

Molon Labe
05-09-2012, 09:17 AM
Changing a party's direction takes time and patience - soon people like Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, and Jim DeMint will be in control, and if we keep working MORE conservative (both in quantity and quality) will follow.

I completely agree with that CS. You are one of the better voices of reason here and I respect that.
It is true that things are changing and that many of the local GOP leaders are in trouble. But this is the last hurrah for me in the GOP. I've been doing it too long and watching the crap build since 2000. But if this is all a facade and things go back to business as usual instead of completely slamming on the brakes and completely reversing the size and scope of the Federal government, then I don't expect the GOP will be a home to conservatives like me anymore and I will be an independant conservative by 2016. I'm pretty much that already, but decided to give it one last shot. The part that concerns me is that Romney is the polar opposite of EVERYTHING conservatism stands for.

Let me make this crystal clear. I am very active in my local areas GOP. I am also slated to be a delegate at the state convention, which nominates the national delegates. I was also one in 08'. The vote one has as a delegate is infinately more important than one has as a general election voter in November. Which is oversold every election as the only hope one has at defeating the evil one...whether that be Gore, Kerry or now Obama

So when I say it is OK to sit out the November election, and that it doesn't matter, it's because I am supremely confidant that the work you do up until the nomination is what really matters to effect real change. Once the two candidates are chosen at the national level, they represent establishment preference and actually represent little differences.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-12-2012, 11:51 AM
Which is why i also am supremely disappointed - Romney was amongst my LAST choice of those who ran. But even as much as I am disheartened that we could not get a real conservative nominated this time, I absolutely am going to urge everyone to vote for him.

People keep underestimating the damage that just four years can do. The Supreme court is just the most visible area where the damage is long term and potentially irreversible. All of the lower courts and agencies are currently being filled with RADICAL anti-Americans and Radical socialists. These people transcend administrations and we CAN'T allow any more to be put in place.

Look at the damage we are STILL undergoing from the disastrous Carter administration - a VERY large part of the problems we have in the Middle East are due to things he did way back then. Without Carter, there are far fewer and far more timid terrorist groups to worry about. There would be NO Iran threatening to go nuclear, and they would not be funding the terrorist groups. Probably no need for the gulf war at all.

Look at the damage Clinton did with the Chinese and giving them satellite technologies and what they did with North Korea by giving them Nuclear technology. Those are future wars just waiting to break out - all because of actions taken by liberals in the past.

With Obama, we have someone that is literally FUNDING our enemies in Egypt - AND appointing Muslim brotherhood members/sympathizers to office HERE.

We simply cannot let this President have another term.

I will repeat - and I know it seems like this is a repeat from last election - because it is : We simply CANNOT stay home and not vote for the Republican Candidate - there ARE differences. Certainly not as stark of a difference as I would want, but at least the Republican candidates are not going to appoint justices like Kagan and Sotomayor. They CERTAINLY are not going to appoint people like Perez or Holder in the Justice Dept. and they absolutely at least still love this country and can be influenced by people like you and I.

You cannot say those things about Obama.