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marv
04-12-2012, 11:30 AM
I think that I'm qualified to criticize, complement, or otherwise comment on religious matters and observations. Some are very distressing.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/295305/american-gospel-kevin-d-williamson?pg=1
(snip)

Anti-Mormonism within the Christian Right [was] a problem for Romney in the primaries; the anti-Mormonism of the secular Left will be a bigger one in the general election. Gallup finds Democrats 50 percent more hostile to Mormons than Republicans, and the Democrats’ choir of hate — Larry O’Donnell, Bill Maher, etc. — already is rehearsing its anti-Mormon litany, while Jacob Weisberg, writing in Slate, argued that Romney’s religion should be disqualifying in and of itself.

(snip)

There is a weird contrast at the heart of American attitudes toward Mormons: Their doctrines may sound exotic to mainstream Christians — whose idea of sensible and respectable orthodoxy is engaging in weekly sessions of symbolic or mystically literal cannibalism in honor of a Jewish god-man who ran afoul of the Roman criminal-justice system after a dinner party went south 20 centuries ago — but, personal planets or no, Mormons themselves are practically the yardstick of normalcy. Every religion gets a stereotype, and the Mormon stereotype is: nice, clean-cut, well-mannered, earnest, sober.

(snip)

He’s wishing somebody would ask him about his regulatory-pricing plan, structural reform of the federal government, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, countervailing duties on Chinese goods — but like Bill Clinton, he can expect to be asked about his underwear.

...and from the Harrison, AR, Harrison Daily newspaper...
http://harrisondaily.com/search/?t=article&q=pipe+bomb

Novaheart
04-12-2012, 01:40 PM
Mormonism is like Scientology - too recently invented for any person with a brain to actually believe it.

Case in point:

According to the Book of Mormon, a religious text of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Nephite ( /ˈniː.faɪt/[1]) is a member of one of the four main groups of settlers of the ancient Americas. The other early settlers described in the Book of Mormon include the Lamanites, Jaredites and Mulekites. Some LDS scholars believe that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem.[2] However, both the Smithsonian Institution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon, and furthermore, no secular archeologist or historian has supported their existence.

Within the context of the Book of Mormon, the Nephites were a group of people descended from or associated with Nephi, the son of the prophet Lehi who left Jerusalem at the urging of God c. 600 BC[3] and traveled with his family to the Western Hemisphere, arriving in the present-day Americas c. 589 BC.[4] The Book of Mormon describes the Nephites as an initially righteous people, who eventually "had fallen into a state of belief and awful wickedness"[5] and were destroyed by their brothers the Lamanites c. AD 385.[6]

noonwitch
04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
I'm not a fan of Joe Smith or the religion he founded. It seems a very convenient religion for men, and from what I've read, old Joe copied most of the church's rituals from the Masons and the ancient Egyptians anyway.


I don't think Romney being a Mormon makes him a bad person, though.

I read in a book by an ex-Mormon that part of the rituals involve physically acting out the ways in which you will die if you tell anyone outside the church about the secret Mormon rituals. Martha Beck wrote the book, and she is the daughter of the late Mormon apologetics expert, Hugh Nibley. She also claimed her father sexually abused her while practicing some of the rituals at home. Her family denies it and says that she is the victim of a therapist who implanted memories of abuse in her mind.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 01:45 PM
At least they don't have Muffy waiting in the bottom of a well waiting to kill the infidel

marv
04-12-2012, 03:16 PM
My wife is a very devout Southern Baptist, and she thinks of Mormonism as a cult. But if Mormonism is a cult, then so is every religious and many political/social beliefs are sects. I hope this won't be 1960 redux.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

Novaheart
04-12-2012, 03:59 PM
I don't think Romney being a Mormon makes him a bad person, though.

Substitute "scientologist" and see if it works.

Novaheart
04-12-2012, 04:00 PM
My wife is a very devout Southern Baptist, and she thinks of Mormonism as a cult. But if Mormonism is a cult, then so is every religious and many political/social beliefs are sects. I hope this won't be 1960 redux.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

I don't run to defend Christianity, but Mormonism is so clearly pure bunk and recently enough invented to satisfy even those of average intelligence of same. So intelligent people who embrace Mormonism must be doing so for some other reason. They are choosing to believe the ridiculous. Just like Scientology.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 04:45 PM
I don't run to defend Christianity, but Mormonism is so clearly pure bunk and recently enough invented to satisfy even those of average intelligence of same. So intelligent people who embrace Mormonism must be doing so for some other reason. They are choosing to believe the ridiculous. Just like Scientology.

Mormanism doesn't have a traceable history before it's founders like Christianity has.

marv
04-12-2012, 05:40 PM
I don't run to defend Christianity, but Mormonism is so clearly pure bunk and recently enough invented to satisfy even those of average intelligence of same. So intelligent people who embrace Mormonism must be doing so for some other reason. They are choosing to believe the ridiculous. Just like Scientology.

I have worked for and with Mormons, and some have worked for me. They are as homogenous as any other segment of the population. What they personally believe is their business so long as no one else is harmed, e.g., Islam.

But today, the LDS and the RLDS are squarely in the bulls eye of the progressives and their MSM.


Mormanism doesn't have a traceable history before it's founders like Christianity has.

Neither does Judeo/Christianity, or any other belief system. All religions today can trace their earliest beginings back to the end of the Chalcolithic period when animist hunter/gatherers emigrated southward from the Siberian stepps and westward from central Europe, and began to form villages and cities.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 08:37 PM
I



Neither does Judeo/Christianity, or any other belief system. All religions today can trace their earliest beginings back to the end of the Chalcolithic period when animist hunter/gatherers emigrated southward from the Siberian stepps and westward from central Europe, and began to form villages and cities.

You didn't understand what I said, the people and places in the Bible are backed up by archeology and other texts whereas the people and places in the book of Mormon so far only exist in the book of Mormon, and are not backed up by any other literature or archeology.

Chuck58
04-12-2012, 09:09 PM
We live in an area fairly well populated with Mormons. I'm not a fan of the religion. I can say this. When there is problem, or a person needs help, they're usually the first ones to arrive.

Last fall, we had severe winds that took off part of the roof of an elderly couple's home not far from us. The people are Catholic, as is just about everyone in this town. It wasn't the Catholic Church or members of the parish who arrived first. It was a group of Mormon men who immediately went to work repairing the roof, and never charged a dime for supplies.

JB
04-12-2012, 09:14 PM
It concerns me that he doesn't drink coffee.

Other than that, meh.

Chuck58
04-12-2012, 09:39 PM
It concerns me that he doesn't drink coffee.

Other than that, meh.

That's another reason I could never be one. I need 2 pots a day, less 2 or 3 cups that my wife drinks. And, my cigarettes.

JB
04-12-2012, 09:45 PM
That's another reason I could never be one. I need 2 pots a day...I hear ya. I know he doesn't drink booze either but that's OK. Lots of folks don't drink (religious reasons or not).

But the joe...I don't know how he does it. :biggrin-new:

MountainMan
04-12-2012, 09:48 PM
Growing up in Montana, you couldn't throw a stick without hitting a Mormon. Do I have problems with that particular religion, ya but it is all theological. I've had those discussions with my Mormon friends and the worst thing that happens is that we agree to disagree and we continue on with the barbeque.

At least with Mormons, they don't go around praying to a schizophrenic pedophile who promises 72 virgins to murderers of women and children.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 09:54 PM
Growing up in Montana, you couldn't throw a stick without hitting a Mormon. Do I have problems with that particular religion, ya but it is all theological. I've had those discussions with my Mormon friends and the worst thing that happens is that we agree to disagree and we continue on with the barbeque.

At least with Mormons, they don't go around praying to a schizophrenic pedophile who promises 72 virgins to murderers of women and children.

Yep, last I heard Mitt wasn't schooled in a Madrasah.

Articulate_Ape
04-12-2012, 10:18 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I'll take a Mormon over a Marxist any day of the week.

Rockntractor
04-12-2012, 10:23 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I'll take a Mormon over a Marxist any day of the week.

I never have quite figured out what Obama is, he seems to be whatever the people are that he is talking to at any given time.

marv
04-12-2012, 10:34 PM
Growing up in Montana, you couldn't throw a stick without hitting a Mormon. Do I have problems with that particular religion, ya but it is all theological. I've had those discussions with my Mormon friends and the worst thing that happens is that we agree to disagree and we continue on with the barbeque.

...and that's the way it should be.

Articulate_Ape
04-12-2012, 10:44 PM
I never have quite figured out what Obama is, he seems to be whatever the people are that he is talking to at any given time.

Trust me, he's a Marxist.

NJCardFan
04-12-2012, 11:41 PM
I don't run to defend Christianity, but Mormonism is so clearly pure bunk and recently enough invented to satisfy even those of average intelligence of same. So intelligent people who embrace Mormonism must be doing so for some other reason. They are choosing to believe the ridiculous. Just like Scientology.

Ever see South Park's take on it?

Novaheart
04-12-2012, 11:53 PM
Ever see South Park's take on it?

dum dum dum dum, dum

noonwitch
04-13-2012, 09:01 AM
Substitute "scientologist" and see if it works.


I don't think Scientologists are bad people on the membership level, I think they are vulnerable people who don't get really high scores on the Weschler test. Look at the celebrities who are Scientologists-Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Kristie Alley-none of them are evil or mean people, but they aren't exactly MENSA material.

I think the leadership of Scientology are evil people, though, along with the late L. Ron Hubbard.

Novaheart
04-13-2012, 09:42 AM
I don't think Scientologists are bad people on the membership level, I think they are vulnerable people who don't get really high scores on the Weschler test. Look at the celebrities who are Scientologists-Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Kristie Alley-none of them are evil or mean people, but they aren't exactly MENSA material.

I think the leadership of Scientology are evil people, though, along with the late L. Ron Hubbard.

I think that we as Americans have been conditioned to see "the group" apart from "the leader" just as we see "the people" apart from "the government". We are a tad selective though; the German people were our cousins but Hitler and the Nazis were the real problem there. On the other hand, we had no problem seeing the Japanese as a nation of obedient suicide bombers with no decency or regard for human life.

Having said that, I would agree with you to a point. Being slightly familiar with Scientology, the entry level programs are actually exercises common to a lot of human potential work and you always have that sense of belonging which many people appear to be running short of. Just like when you go to the First Baptist Megachurch and they have a designated greeter who hands you off to a cell leader who becomes your guide to the church and invites you to dinner and movie night etc... you feel cared for. This is quite unlike an Episcopal Church which might have a greeter and would never dream of being pushy to the point at which it's quite possible for you to attend an Episcopal church and leave without ever having actually met anyone.

Zeus
04-13-2012, 10:32 AM
There is plenty I don't know or understand about the Mormons. I will say though that as a whole amongst the various religions Mormons are the best at talking the talk & walking the walk. The worst (not to start a shit storm just my opinion) Southern Baptists.

Arroyo_Doble
04-13-2012, 10:39 AM
At least with Mormons, they don't go around praying to a schizophrenic pedophile who promises 72 virgins to murderers of women and children.

You really want to get into what was promised by Joseph Smith or the age of a couple of his wives?

noonwitch
04-13-2012, 12:10 PM
There is plenty I don't know or understand about the Mormons. I will say though that as a whole amongst the various religions Mormons are the best at talking the talk & walking the walk. The worst (not to start a shit storm just my opinion) Southern Baptists.

LOL. What about american catholics? Most use birth control, most shack up prior to marriage and most vote democratic, thus for prochoice candidates?

Zeus
04-13-2012, 03:23 PM
LOL. What about american catholics? Most use birth control, most shack up prior to marriage and most vote democratic, thus for prochoice candidates?

While that may be true they usually don't go around telling others not to do it.

m00
04-13-2012, 04:23 PM
You really want to get into what was promised by Joseph Smith or the age of a couple of his wives?

I'm sure there is an alternate universe where the only quantum difference is that Romney just happens to be a Muslim. Alternate Novaheart argues passionately against Islam, while Alternate everyone else is an apologist.

Rockntractor
04-13-2012, 04:48 PM
I'm sure there is an alternate universe where the only quantum difference is that Romney just happens to be a Muslim. Alternate Novaheart argues passionately against Islam, while Alternate everyone else is an apologist.

Nova argues against Islam in this universe.

SarasotaRepub
04-13-2012, 05:11 PM
Ever see South Park's take on it?


You bastard!!! Now I can't get that jingle out of my head!!!!! :biggrin-new:

Zeus
04-13-2012, 06:49 PM
15 Mormons serving in U.S. Congress (http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/60334/15-Mormons-serving-in-US-Congress.html)

The majority leader of the U.S. Senate and the most senior Republican senator are two of the 15 Church members serving in the 112th United States Congress this year. The members were sworn in Jan. 5.

Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nevada, the majority leader of the U.S. Senate, was elected to his fifth term and has served since 1986.Now in his sixth term as Utah's senator, Orrin Hatch was first elected in 1976. He is the former chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.LDS members of the U.S. Senate

Other Latter-day Saint senators include

Sen. Mike Crapo, R-Idaho, elected in 1998
Newly elected Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah
Sen. Tom Udall, D-New Mexico, elected in 2008

LDS members of the U.S. HouseLatter-day Saints serving in the U.S. House of Representatives include:

Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah, elected in 2002.
Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, elected in 2008
Rep. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., elected in 2000
Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nevada, elected in 2006.
Rep. Wally Herger, R-Calif., elected in 1986
Newly elected Rep. Raul Labrador, R-Idaho
Rep. Jim Matheson, D-Utah, elected in 2000.
Rep. Buck McKeon, R-Calif., elected in 1992.
Rep. Mike Simpson, R-Idaho, elected in 1998.
Rep. Eni Faleomavaega, D-American Samoa, is one of five territorial representatives in the House. He is in his 13th term as American Samoa's nonvoting delegate

Novaheart
04-14-2012, 10:42 AM
You didn't understand what I said, the people and places in the Bible are backed up by archeology and other texts whereas the people and places in the book of Mormon so far only exist in the book of Mormon, and are not backed up by any other literature or archeology.

The people and places mentioned in the Bible do not create credibility for the theology of the Bible. As I have said many times, the fact that we know where Mt Olympus and other locations in Greek Mythology exist doesn't mean that the Greek religion was any less mythology than any other mythology.

However, the Old Testament is also a folk history or historical narrative absent its wandering into the divine. It is the story of the Hebrew people. Judaism isn't simply a walk on religion, it's the culture, belief system and narrative of the Hebrew people. It's how they saw themselves. The same simply cannot be said of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon out of whole cloth, stealing the "history" of the Americas from popular speculation.

Where Did Joseph Smith Get His Ideas
for the Book of Mormon?

By Sandra Tanner



One of the claims often made by LDS people is that there was no information on the Indian ruins in Mexico and Guatemala available prior to 1830. Actually, numerous books recounting similar ideas as those in Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon had already been published.

Many of the books published on the American Indians claimed a possible tie to the lost tribes of Israel. The Book of Mormon follows this idea and claims that the main group in the story is Israelites from Jerusalem. Other ideas found in the Book of Mormon that are also found in books of Smith’s time include: two groups warring against each other, a white group destroyed by war, horses, use of the wheel, mammoth bones, Hebrew writings, Egyptian influence, the use of stone boxes, written records, temples, grand ruins, highways, fortifications, etc. These commonly held theories prepared the way for people to more readily believe the Book of Mormon.

However, current findings and non-LDS scholars now reject these ideas and see no relationship between the American Indians and Hebrews or the civilization depicted in the Book of Mormon.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/bomindianorigins.htm

Below is a partial list of books published prior to 1830 dealing with the Indians (condensed from Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1986, pp. 105-132).

Rockntractor
04-14-2012, 11:45 AM
The people and places mentioned in the Bible do not create credibility for the theology of the Bible.
I never stated that it backed up the existence of God, if you want to argue with what I didn't say, you can talk to yourself

m00
04-14-2012, 02:38 PM
Nova argues against Islam in this universe.

Nova, are you for anything? :p

Novaheart
04-14-2012, 02:43 PM
Nova, are you for anything?

World peace, whether they like it or not.

m00
04-14-2012, 02:51 PM
World peace, whether they like it or not.

Is this like the I, Robot version of world peace?

marv
04-14-2012, 03:27 PM
WaPo is already dipping it's toe in the waters, quite carefully though, by teasing with the question of polygamy after sanitizing Obama's birther issue.......

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obama-and-romney-both-come-from-a-ancestry-of-polygamy/2012/04/12/gIQA3TI8CT_story.html