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Gina
05-02-2012, 09:03 AM
Posted May 1, 2012 8:06am EDT

Almost eight years ago, presidential candidate John Kerry accepted the Democratic nomination with the infamous line: “I’m John Kerry, and I’m reporting for duty.” His military service, in a war three decades old, became the centerpiece of his campaign.
Within weeks, the Republicans had turned what was seen as one of Kerry’s strongest assets against him.

Swift Boats Veterans for Truth—which included over 200 Vietnam veterans, most who hadn’t even served with Kerry—succeeded in raising doubts about the heroic narrative Kerry was selling.

What seemingly started as a scratch turned into a sucking chest wound for his campaign.
Yesterday, the Obama campaign got clawed.

What was supposed to be an easy win—a victory lap on the anniversary of Bin Laden’s death, trumping up the president’s most militant moment—appeared to be slipping away.

The frustration—or, even anger—within the SEAL community is real, and has been brewing for months, particularly among a politically conservative core of operators. It started immediately after the raid, with questions among the Special Forces and intelligence community of whether the president should have waited to announce the kill to exploit the intelligence cache at Osama’s compound.

It simmered after a Chinook helicopter was shot down, killing 30 Americans, 22 of them Navy SEALs from Team Six.
Link (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mhastings/will-resentful-navy-seals-swift-boat-obama)

Odysseus
05-02-2012, 09:10 AM
Posted May 1, 2012 8:06am EDT

Link (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mhastings/will-resentful-navy-seals-swift-boat-obama)

SEALs currently on active duty will not say or do anything publicly. That would be a massive violation of the UCMJ. However, I suspect that former SEALs will be extremely vocal about this.

Starbuck
05-02-2012, 09:45 AM
The article dismisses swift boat veterans, saying "most of them hadn't even served with Kerry" as if that made a difference. Swift boat veterans didn't sink Kerry. Kerry sank himself by being the egotistical, shallow, self-serving jerk that he is. Swift boat veterans didn't sink him, and Moveon.org didn't save him. He just lost.

No, the navy SEALS won't "swift boat" Obama. The "youth vote" won't save him, either. He'll just lose for all the right reasons.

Novaheart
05-02-2012, 10:07 AM
Do cheer the "Swift Boat Veterans." A group which attacked a veteran in favor of George Bush.

Rockntractor
05-02-2012, 11:01 AM
Do cheer the "Swift Boat Veterans." A group which attacked a veteran in favor of George Bush.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/KerryLurch.jpg

namvet
05-02-2012, 11:02 AM
let's just swift boat Obastard at the polls and get rid of it

Zathras
05-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Do cheer the "Swift Boat Veterans." A group which attacked a veteran in favor of George Bush.

Who, you convienently forget to mention, is also a veteran. So, no matter who they supported, they would have been attacking a veteran.

Janice
05-02-2012, 11:52 AM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/KerryLurch.jpg

No, that be Lurch. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurch_%28The_Addams_Family%29)

Starbuck
05-02-2012, 11:57 AM
Do cheer the "Swift Boat Veterans." A group which attacked a veteran in favor of George Bush.
Oh, Jeez, Nova. Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean he automatically gets support from all other veterans.

Speaking for every veteran I know I can tell you we just didn't like Kerry. In fact, voting against Kerry was my primary purpose in voting that year. If he hadn't run I probably would not have voted.

While not a swift boat veteran, I am a veteran of Operation Game Warden, a veteran of the U.S. Junk Force, and participated in the Tet Offensive of '68. And I never heard of anyone other than Kerry who went to the trouble of re-enacting events for the benefit of his personal camera. We preferred Bush. Still do.

Odysseus
05-02-2012, 12:32 PM
Do cheer the "Swift Boat Veterans." A group which attacked a veteran in favor of George Bush.

There are a number of veterans who would make lousy presidents, and a few who I wouldn't trust to be dog-catcher (while Obama, who is not a veteran, appears to have an affinity for stray dogs, at least if they are prepared correctly). Wesley Clark was universally reviled by people who served with him, and his campaign did not feature any of his former staffers or peers. OTOH, Harry Truman's WWI artillery battery campaigned for him en masse and used to meet at the White House for reunions during his tour. That's a very telling thing about the loyalty that they felt for him, and from him. Kerry's fellow Naval officers and enlisted members considered him a self-absorbed phony who couldn't be trusted, and they said so, individually and in unison. They knew that he felt no loyalty to them during the war, much less after, when he tried to use his service as a springboard to public office, failed, and then turned himself into an antiwar candidate, again using his service for credibility. His testimony before congress was a pack of self-serving lies and his conduct as a leader of the Winter Soldier hearings was despicable.

OTOH, had the positions been reversed, and Bush's leaders in the Guard come out against him, you'd have had no problem with it. However, since they didn't, it was left to Dan Rather and his producers to pretend that they had and produce forgeries of documents to support their lie. This is the real issue, that the media lied about Bush's record, and when the Swift Boat Vets told the truth about Kerry, the Media lied about them, too.

Rockntractor
05-02-2012, 12:43 PM
No, that be Lurch. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurch_%28The_Addams_Family%29)

He has that Nova flattop.

Deadhead
05-02-2012, 01:13 PM
Eh, probably not. The 2004 election was all about 9/11. This one is gonna be all about the economy. If anything is made out of it from former Navy Seals, the only people who'll pay attention will be the types who listen to talk radio, read political blogs, etc. Your average, normal person won't think it's a big deal

Starbuck
05-02-2012, 04:19 PM
Eh, probably not. The 2004 election was all about 9/11. This one is gonna be all about the economy. If anything is made out of it from former Navy Seals, the only people who'll pay attention will be the types who listen to talk radio, read political blogs, etc. Your average, normal person won't think it's a big deal

I kind of agree. It's not like his former buddies are turning on him.

His only chance is to win the election with the black vote, college students, and women. And that's going to be tough to win the election with, this time.

Janice
05-02-2012, 04:23 PM
I kind of agree. It's not like his former buddies are turning on him.

His only chance is to win the election with the black vote, college students, and women. ...

And other liberal groups. :cool:

Deadhead
05-02-2012, 04:25 PM
I kind of agree. It's not like his former buddies are turning on him.

His only chance is to win the election with the black vote, college students, and women. And that's going to be tough to win the election with, this time.
I would totally agree with you if you would replace college students with hispanics.

Starbuck
05-02-2012, 04:30 PM
I would totally agree with you if you would replace college students with hispanics.

Yeah, he got the student vote last time and I suppose he will get it this time, too, but there will be far, far fewer of them that will vote.
He's trying to stir them up with talk of the Republicans raising the interest on their precious student loans. I'll be happier when the Republicans have a VP who can attack, attack, attack....:Flag2:

Deadhead
05-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Yeah, he got the student vote last time and I suppose he will get it this time, too, but there will be far, far fewer of them that will vote.
He's trying to stir them up with talk of the Republicans raising the interest on their precious student loans. I'll be happier when the Republicans have a VP who can attack, attack, attack....:Flag2:

I'll be interested to see how Romney and Obama handle the whole student loan thing. That was something I didn't think anybody really thought would become an issue, but it has. And yes, there will be far fewer college students voting for Obama, much less doing any sort of active campaigning for him.

As far as the Republican veep goes, I wish Mitt would get this out of the way and just announce Rubio. We all know it's going to be him. Or if not him, a safer minority choice like Nikki Haley. No Sarah Palins this time, and for that, I'm thankful

Odysseus
05-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Eh, probably not. The 2004 election was all about 9/11. This one is gonna be all about the economy. If anything is made out of it from former Navy Seals, the only people who'll pay attention will be the types who listen to talk radio, read political blogs, etc. Your average, normal person won't think it's a big deal

I don't know about that. Polling shows a drop in his numbers since he started this tactic.

One thing that the average person understands and resents is when somebody takes credit for someone else's achievements. Obama's biggest advantage in this campaign has been that the majority of the electorate likes him personally, but is disappointed in his job performance. If the likability factor is impacted by behavior that turns off the electorate, then his reelection prospects drop accordiningly.

Gina
05-02-2012, 05:07 PM
It's too bad Obama didn't do what he could earlier about the student loan thing.

As senator, Obama missed votes on student loan bill he now wants to extend (http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/04/as-senator-obama-missed-votes-on-student-loan-bill-121386.html)

Hawkgirl
05-02-2012, 05:59 PM
SEALs currently on active duty will not say or do anything publicly. That would be a massive violation of the UCMJ. However, I suspect that former SEALs will be extremely vocal about this.

That's what I figured, he's still their CIC even though he's a schmuck and evidently disliked by the Seals.

Deadhead
05-02-2012, 08:38 PM
I don't know about that. Polling shows a drop in his numbers since he started this tactic.

One thing that the average person understands and resents is when somebody takes credit for someone else's achievements. Obama's biggest advantage in this campaign has been that the majority of the electorate likes him personally, but is disappointed in his job performance. If the likability factor is impacted by behavior that turns off the electorate, then his reelection prospects drop accordiningly.

Ok, I can see your point. Hell, I like the guy personally, but am very disappointed in his job performance. Still not sure if this is simply the right making a mountain out of a molehill though. If this is still an issue in like....two weeks, I'd probably be more inclined to agree with you.

jjf3rd77
05-02-2012, 09:08 PM
well someone is not happy about it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JsrSAqRrCc0

Novaheart
05-03-2012, 08:52 AM
Who, you convienently forget to mention, is also a veteran. So, no matter who they supported, they would have been attacking a veteran.

These veterans disagree with you.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=367

Zathras
05-03-2012, 09:58 AM
These veterans disagree with you.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=367

Stopped reading after this:


George Bush is not a veteran.

When you start your piece with such a blatant lie, then the rest of the article is null and void. Besides, since Kerry is one of them, I don't really take what they have to say on this subject seriously.

Try again Nova. Maybe you'll get it right one day.

Apache
05-03-2012, 10:56 AM
These veterans disagree with you.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=367

A Left-wing organization against Bush? No way!!!! :rolleyes:

Novaheart
05-03-2012, 11:53 AM
Stopped reading after this:



When you start your piece with such a blatant lie,

There is a legitimate debate about the definition of "veteran". The VFW used to lay it out rather coldly in a way that some here would object to.

Odysseus
05-03-2012, 12:07 PM
Ok, I can see your point. Hell, I like the guy personally, but am very disappointed in his job performance. Still not sure if this is simply the right making a mountain out of a molehill though. If this is still an issue in like....two weeks, I'd probably be more inclined to agree with you.

I wasn't disappointed in his job performance because I didn't expect him to be any good. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he took office, because he kept some key people on at DOD, but he's been an unmitigated disaster across the board. As for this issue, I find it unseemly to spike the ball from the bleachers when you've never set foot on the field.


These veterans disagree with you.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=367
Vietnam Veterans Against War is to mainstream veterans as the CPUSA is to the Republican Party. They have zero credibility, especially after the Winter Soldier Hearings, when they solicited testimony from persons who claimed to be veterans who had never set foot in Vietnam, or for that matter, ever set foot on an active post. Here is a brief history of the organization:





Organized the 1971 “Winter Soldier Investigation,” which portrayed U.S. troops and the U.S. military as war criminals
Claims that U.S. foreign policy is "based on corporate exploitation and military domination"


In 1967, six Vietnam War (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/guideDesc.asp?catid=100&type=issue) veterans-turned-antiwar activists (Jan Barry Crumb, Ron Kovic, Skip Delano, Carl Rogers, Sheldon Ramsdell, and former Black Panther Al Hubbard) founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Over the ensuing decades, some 30,000 people would join this organization.

VVAW's self-defined initial mission (http://www.vvaw.org/about/) was to "expos[e] the ugly truth about U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia and … the unjust nature of that war." Its portrayal of U.S. troops as war criminals angered most veterans. In the years following the Vietnam War, VVAW showed more sympathy for those who had refused to serve in the military than for those who served. It sought to gain amnesty for war resisters, including veterans with "bad discharges" from the military. And it "helped make known the negative health effects of exposure to chemical defoliants and the VA's [Department of Veterans' Affairs'] attempts to cover-up these conditions as well as their continued refusal to provide treatment and compensation for many Agent Orange Victims."

According to a November 1978 Heritage Foundation report, VVAW was "an overtly pro-Communist and pro-Hanoi organization that was eventually taken over by the Maoist Revolutionary Union"; it was "among the most active components of the Communist-dominated People's Coalition for Peace and Justice"; and it included anti-war activists "who later progressed to involvement with such Maoist groups as the Venceremos Organization and such avowedly terrorist operations as the Symbionese Liberation Army (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6466)."

In his book Liberal Fascism, Jonah Goldberg writes that VVAW "internally debated whether or not it should assassinate politicians who supported the war."

In June 1970, John Kerry (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1346) became involved with VVAW. On September 7 of that year, he accepted a prominent role in the organization's "Operation RAW" (Rapid American Withdrawal), where 150 combat veterans marched, wearing their army fatigues and carrying toy rifles, through the countryside from Morristown, New Jersey to Valley Forge, Pennsylvania in an action designed to convey the horrors of war and the barbarity of American soldiers.

At Valley Forge, Kerry came into contact with VVAW's most prominent promoter, actress Jane Fonda (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1326), who stated, "My Lai [a 1968 massacre by U.S. soldiers against unarmed Vietnamese civilians] was not an isolated incident but rather a way of life for many of our military."

From January 31 to February 2, 1971, VVAW organized the "Winter Soldier Investigation," with Kerry and Fonda playing prominent roles. At this event, 125 self-identified Vietnam veterans testified in condemnation of the American military's alleged wholesale rape, torture, arson, and murder of South Vietnamese citizens. It was later learned that some participants in the testimony had lied, and that others were imposters who had never been in Vietnam.

On April 22, 1971, John Kerry testified before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs as a spokesman for VVAW, giving his infamous characterization (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/reminiscent%20of%20Genghis%20Khan) of American serviceman as murderers and pillagers "reminiscent of Genghis Khan."

Through the decades, VVAW has opposed every military action the United States has taken, including the current war on terrorism.

"Today," VVAW says, "... American troops have been sent into combat in the Middle East and Central America, for many of the same misguided reasons that were used to send us to Southeast Asia. Meanwhile, many veterans are still denied justice -- facing unemployment, discrimination, homelessness, post-traumatic stress disorder and other health problems, while already inadequate services are being cut back or eliminated.”

Immediately following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, VVAW issued a statement (http://www.vvaw.org/commentary/?id=7) that read, in part: "[O]ur country has to address the reasons behind the violence that has now come to our shores.… As long as U.S. foreign policy continues to be based on corporate exploitation and military domination, we will continue to make more enemies in the poor, underdeveloped countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America.... We see many parallels between Vietnam and Afghanistan."

VVAW is a member organization of the United for Peace and Justice (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6166) anti-war coalition, which is led by Leslie Cagan (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=629), a longtime committed socialist who aligns her politics with those of Fidel Castro (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/individualProfile.asp?indid=912)'s Communist Cuba. VVAW has denounced the Patriot Act and views the post-9/11 detention of Muslims and Arabs taken into custody in terrorism investigations as an assault on civil rights.

VVAW was a signatory to a February 20, 2002 document (http://www.refuseandresist.org/imm/012502ndsami.html), composed by the radical group Refuse & Resist (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6165), condemning military tribunals and the detention of immigrants apprehended in connection with post-9/11 terrorism investigations. The document read, in part, "[T]hey [the U.S. government] are coming for the Arab, Muslim and South Asian immigrants. Based on their racial profile, over 1500 have been rounded up and the government refuses to say who they are, where they are jailed and what the charges are!!! … The recent 'disappearances,' indefinite detention, the round-ups, the secret military tribunals, the denial of legal representation, evidence kept a secret from the accused, the denial of any due process for Arab, Muslim, South Asians and others, have chilling similarities to a police state."

A notable member of VVAW is Carl Dix (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/individualProfile.asp?indid=1178), co-founder of the Revolutionary Communist Party (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6197).

Rockntractor
05-03-2012, 12:10 PM
Vietnam Veterans Against War is to mainstream veterans as the CPUSA is to the Republican Party. They have zero credibility, especially after the Winter Soldier Hearings, when they solicited testimony from persons who claimed to be veterans who had never set foot in Vietnam, or for that matter, ever set foot on an active post. Here is a brief history of the organization:





Organized the 1971 “Winter Soldier Investigation,” which portrayed U.S. troops and the U.S. military as war criminals
Claims that U.S. foreign policy is "based on corporate exploitation and military domination"


In 1967, six Vietnam War (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/guideDesc.asp?catid=100&type=issue) veterans-turned-antiwar activists (Jan Barry Crumb, Ron Kovic, Skip Delano, Carl Rogers, Sheldon Ramsdell, and former Black Panther Al Hubbard) founded Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Over the ensuing decades, some 30,000 people would join this organization.

VVAW's self-defined initial mission (http://www.vvaw.org/about/) was to "expos[e] the ugly truth about U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia and … the unjust nature of that war." Its portrayal of U.S. troops as war criminals angered most veterans. In the years following the Vietnam War, VVAW showed more sympathy for those who had refused to serve in the military than for those who served. It sought to gain amnesty for war resisters, including veterans with "bad discharges" from the military. And it "helped make known the negative health effects of exposure to chemical defoliants and the VA's [Department of Veterans' Affairs'] attempts to cover-up these conditions as well as their continued refusal to provide treatment and compensation for many Agent Orange Victims."

According to a November 1978 Heritage Foundation report, VVAW was "an overtly pro-Communist and pro-Hanoi organization that was eventually taken over by the Maoist Revolutionary Union"; it was "among the most active components of the Communist-dominated People's Coalition for Peace and Justice"; and it included anti-war activists "who later progressed to involvement with such Maoist groups as the Venceremos Organization and such avowedly terrorist operations as the Symbionese Liberation Army (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6466)."

In his book Liberal Fascism, Jonah Goldberg writes that VVAW "internally debated whether or not it should assassinate politicians who supported the war."

In June 1970, John Kerry (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1346) became involved with VVAW. On September 7 of that year, he accepted a prominent role in the organization's "Operation RAW" (Rapid American Withdrawal), where 150 combat veterans marched, wearing their army fatigues and carrying toy rifles, through the countryside from Morristown, New Jersey to Valley Forge, Pennsylvania in an action designed to convey the horrors of war and the barbarity of American soldiers.

At Valley Forge, Kerry came into contact with VVAW's most prominent promoter, actress Jane Fonda (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1326), who stated, "My Lai [a 1968 massacre by U.S. soldiers against unarmed Vietnamese civilians] was not an isolated incident but rather a way of life for many of our military."

From January 31 to February 2, 1971, VVAW organized the "Winter Soldier Investigation," with Kerry and Fonda playing prominent roles. At this event, 125 self-identified Vietnam veterans testified in condemnation of the American military's alleged wholesale rape, torture, arson, and murder of South Vietnamese citizens. It was later learned that some participants in the testimony had lied, and that others were imposters who had never been in Vietnam.

On April 22, 1971, John Kerry testified before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs as a spokesman for VVAW, giving his infamous characterization (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/reminiscent%20of%20Genghis%20Khan) of American serviceman as murderers and pillagers "reminiscent of Genghis Khan."

Through the decades, VVAW has opposed every military action the United States has taken, including the current war on terrorism.

"Today," VVAW says, "... American troops have been sent into combat in the Middle East and Central America, for many of the same misguided reasons that were used to send us to Southeast Asia. Meanwhile, many veterans are still denied justice -- facing unemployment, discrimination, homelessness, post-traumatic stress disorder and other health problems, while already inadequate services are being cut back or eliminated.”

Immediately following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, VVAW issued a statement (http://www.vvaw.org/commentary/?id=7) that read, in part: "[O]ur country has to address the reasons behind the violence that has now come to our shores.… As long as U.S. foreign policy continues to be based on corporate exploitation and military domination, we will continue to make more enemies in the poor, underdeveloped countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America.... We see many parallels between Vietnam and Afghanistan."

VVAW is a member organization of the United for Peace and Justice (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6166) anti-war coalition, which is led by Leslie Cagan (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=629), a longtime committed socialist who aligns her politics with those of Fidel Castro (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/individualProfile.asp?indid=912)'s Communist Cuba. VVAW has denounced the Patriot Act and views the post-9/11 detention of Muslims and Arabs taken into custody in terrorism investigations as an assault on civil rights.

VVAW was a signatory to a February 20, 2002 document (http://www.refuseandresist.org/imm/012502ndsami.html), composed by the radical group Refuse & Resist (http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6165), condemning military tribunals and the detention of immigrants apprehended in connection with post-9/11 terrorism investigations. The document read, in part, "[T]hey [the U.S. government] are coming for the Arab, Muslim and South Asian immigrants. Based on their racial profile, over 1500 have been rounded up and the government refuses to say who they are, where they are jailed and what the charges are!!! … The recent 'disappearances,' indefinite detention, the round-ups, the secret military tribunals, the denial of legal representation, evidence kept a secret from the accused, the denial of any due process for Arab, Muslim, South Asians and others, have chilling similarities to a police state."

A notable member of VVAW is Carl Dix (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/individualProfile.asp?indid=1178), co-founder of the Revolutionary Communist Party (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6197).



You have just increased Nova's respect for them.

Odysseus
05-03-2012, 12:39 PM
You have just increased Nova's respect for them.

Or not. Nova isn't a complete loon when it comes to defending the US, he just doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Zathras
05-03-2012, 01:05 PM
There is a legitimate debate about the definition of "veteran".

Only to you and those who don't know what the word means or try to twist it to fit their definition. VVAW is just one of those groups that have done so.

Zathras
05-03-2012, 01:07 PM
Or not. Nova isn't a complete loon when it comes to defending the US, he just doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Unfortunantly, not knowing about a subject doesn't prevent Nova from commenting on it like he does.

Retread
05-03-2012, 07:05 PM
Will The Navy SEALs Swift Boat Obama?

We can only hope they will be successful....

Chuck58
05-03-2012, 08:45 PM
Those were fun times back in 2004. Four other guys and I had a site up,

VietnamSpecialForcesVeteransAgainstJohnKerry and it got a massive number of hits in the few months it was up. We had a huge amount of verifiable info on kerry the Traitor. We tried to verify it as much as possible before posting it. I wish I'd had a chance to back it up before we took down the site after the election. kerry the Traitor was no hero. I can't remember all the details any more, there was too much information coming in and having to be checked (as best we could).

Suffice to say, there's an unresolved question about his discharge, whether he was still an active duty Lt in the Navy while engaged in antiwar activities and other things. The Swift Boat Vets did a helluva job. I emailed with one who served with kerry the Traitor and he provided quite a bit of info as well as helping us in vetting the information we received.

If the SEAL Vets can do half the job the Swift Vets did, this poseur in the White House will be in trouble.

SaintLouieWoman
05-04-2012, 08:13 AM
Do cheer the "Swift Boat Veterans." A group which attacked a veteran in favor of George Bush.
Nova, sometimes you're way too aggravating. :rolleyes:

Novaheart
05-04-2012, 09:49 AM
Nova, sometimes you're way too aggravating. :rolleyes:

Give me some credit, I edited it from "real veteran".

Novaheart
05-04-2012, 09:57 AM
......And I never heard of anyone other than Kerry who went to the trouble of re-enacting events for the benefit of his personal camera. ......

What is the operative word here? "Personal"?

Starbuck
05-04-2012, 11:02 AM
What is the operative word here? "Personal"?
"I never heard of anyone other than Kerry who went to the trouble of re-enacting events for the benefit of his personal camera.". That's what I said. That's what it means. Now, like Bill Clinton redirecting attention by trying to redefine 'is', you want to know what "the operative word" is.
What a hoot. Would you like for me to define "never"; "I"; "anyone"; "camera"? No, you really don't want a definition of any of those things any more than you want to discuss 'the operative word'.

I take back what I said. I have heard of someone re-enacting events for the benefit of their personal camera. Civil War Battle Re-enactors. Serial Killers. There. Now, we have two groups and one individual who have re-enacted events for the benefit of their personal camera. Maybe you could add to the list.

Or should I define 'list' for you...........:friendly_wink:

Novaheart
05-04-2012, 07:32 PM
"I never heard of anyone other than Kerry who went to the trouble of re-enacting events for the benefit of his personal camera.". That's what I said. That's what it means. Now, like Bill Clinton redirecting attention by trying to redefine 'is', you want to know what "the operative word" is.
What a hoot. Would you like for me to define "never"; "I"; "anyone"; "camera"? No, you really don't want a definition of any of those things any more than you want to discuss 'the operative word'.

I take back what I said. I have heard of someone re-enacting events for the benefit of their personal camera. Civil War Battle Re-enactors. Serial Killers. There. Now, we have two groups and one individual who have re-enacted events for the benefit of their personal camera. Maybe you could add to the list.

Or should I define 'list' for you...........:friendly_wink:

I asked if "personal" was the operative word, because I assumed that you were aware that there are well known instances of military personnel re-enacting battlefield scenes for the benefit of the photographers, presumably official photographers as it's rather difficult to imagine that the military allows just anyone to tag along.

Apache
05-04-2012, 09:41 PM
I asked if "personal" was the operative word, because I assumed that you were aware that there are well known instances of military personnel re-enacting battlefield scenes for the benefit of the photographers, presumably official photographers as it's rather difficult to imagine that the military allows just anyone to tag along.

That's all you're really good at,huh Nova? Playing games. What did John-"I served in Vietnam"- Kerry do to warrant a recreation? Did it rise to the level of Audie Murphy, Alvin York or Douglas MacArthur...? Hell even Ira Hayes was more of a hero than Kerry...


I assume you've heard of these men, without googling them :rolleyes:

Chuck58
05-04-2012, 10:12 PM
That's all you're really good at,huh Nova? Playing games. What did John-"I served in Vietnam"- Kerry do to warrant a recreation? Did it rise to the level of Audie Murphy, Alvin York or Douglas MacArthur...? Hell even Ira Hayes was more of a hero than Kerry...


I assume you've heard of these men, without googling them :rolleyes:

Lots of problems, as I recall, with his Silver Star award. His boat is fired at by a VC with a B40 rocket launcher. Instead of getting out of the area which, as I understand, was the rule he beaches his boat. The VC kid stands up holding the empty launcher and is knocked down by the twin .50's on the boat. kerry the Traitor hops off the boat, which a boat commander NEVER does, goes off on his own, finds the wounded VC kid behind a hooch and supposedly kills him. For that he gets a Silver Star. Was the kid even alive after taking a hit from a.50 cal? Nobody knows. Then, he films a re-enactment of his adventure which was shown on TV back during the 2004 campaign.

He collected a Bronze Star, 3 Hearts, Silver Star and I don't recall what else, all in less than 4 months in country. If he'd made it 6 months, at the rate he was racking up awards he'd no doubt have been the most decorated man to come out of Vietnam, maybe up to and including the Navy Cross and MoH.

*edit* kerry the Traitor wanted to equal or surpass the other JFK from Massachusetts, even if he had to cheat and lie to do it.

Novaheart
05-04-2012, 10:33 PM
That's all you're really good at,huh Nova? Playing games. What did John-"I served in Vietnam"- Kerry do to warrant a recreation? Did it rise to the level of Audie Murphy, Alvin York or Douglas MacArthur...? Hell even Ira Hayes was more of a hero than Kerry...


I assume you've heard of these men, without googling them :rolleyes:

Alvin York was a Livingston, so I knew of him. The others are presumably important to someone.

Apache
05-04-2012, 10:43 PM
Lots of problems, as I recall, with his Silver Star award. His boat is fired at by a VC with a B40 rocket launcher. Instead of getting out of the area which, as I understand, was the rule he beaches his boat. The VC kid stands up holding the empty launcher and is knocked down by the twin .50's on the boat. kerry the Traitor hops off the boat, which a boat commander NEVER does, goes off on his own, finds the wounded VC kid behind a hooch and supposedly kills him. For that he gets a Silver Star. Was the kid even alive after taking a hit from a.50 cal? Nobody knows. Then, he films a re-enactment of his adventure which was shown on TV back during the 2004 campaign.

He collected a Bronze Star, 3 Hearts, Silver Star and I don't recall what else, all in less than 4 months in country. If he'd made it 6 months, at the rate he was racking up awards he'd no doubt have been the most decorated man to come out of Vietnam, maybe up to and including the Navy Cross and MoH.

*edit* kerry the Traitor wanted to equal or surpass the other JFK from Massachusetts, even if he had to cheat and lie to do it.

So, in other words, NOTHING...

All the men I mentioned, did something to warrant the recreation of their actions in battle. Kerry hunts down a pre-pubesent commie with an initial wound that was bigger than he was, and supposedly kills him...


You know what REALLY sticks in my craw? The term "swiftboating". Those men revealed the truth of what he did there. Exposed him as a fraud, a glory seeker and a liar! Yet the term is used as lying about the past...:livid:

Apache
05-04-2012, 10:47 PM
Alvin York was a Livingston, so I knew of him. The others are presumably important to someone.

I suggest you back away now... cuz history will bite you in the ass!


although, you might welcome that...

Chuck58
05-04-2012, 11:12 PM
Alvin York was a Livingston, so I knew of him. The others are presumably important to someone.

The more of your posts I read, the more pathetic they become.

And, btw, it's true about Ira Hayes being more of a hero than kerry the Traitor. Every one of those men who landed on that hellhole were heroes in my book. A couple of those men who were with Hayes and helped raise the flag, didn't come home.

Novaheart
05-04-2012, 11:49 PM
The more of your posts I read, the more pathetic they become.

Did you really think I was going to respond seriously to anything written by Apache's hand? The part about Alvin York was serious, though.

Odysseus
05-05-2012, 12:33 PM
Did you really think I was going to respond seriously to anything written by Apache's hand? The part about Alvin York was serious, though.

If I can respond seriously to you, you have no excuse.

Retread
05-05-2012, 01:12 PM
If I can respond seriously to you, you have no excuse.

s/he's never needed an excuse to dump her trash here.

Apache
05-05-2012, 10:12 PM
Did you really think I was going to respond seriously to anything written by Apache's hand? ...

Careful, your elitist is showing!

That whole Occam's razor thing is a bitch, huh? :evil-grin:

dougreese
05-07-2012, 07:37 PM
"I never heard of anyone other than Kerry who went to the trouble of re-enacting events for the benefit of his personal camera.". That's what I said. That's what it means. Now, like Bill Clinton redirecting attention by trying to redefine 'is', you want to know what "the operative word" is.
What a hoot. Would you like for me to define "never"; "I"; "anyone"; "camera"? No, you really don't want a definition of any of those things any more than you want to discuss 'the operative word'.

I take back what I said. I have heard of someone re-enacting events for the benefit of their personal camera. Civil War Battle Re-enactors. Serial Killers. There. Now, we have two groups and one individual who have re-enacted events for the benefit of their personal camera. Maybe you could add to the list.

Or should I define 'list' for you...........:friendly_wink:
Thousands of guys had cameras like Kerry's. It was hardly unusual. He bought it in Vietnam -- in the PX at Cam Ranh Bay.

"Re-enacting"? Didn't happen. That came from a journalist's account that was,in my opinion, badly worded.

There were two incidents for which Kerry was awarded a medal for valor. February 28, and March 13, 1969.

There was no filming done March 13. On Feb 28, there was some filming done that day, but nothing whatsoever that can be called re-enacting.

Doug Reese

Starbuck
05-07-2012, 09:29 PM
Thousands of guys had cameras like Kerry's. It was hardly unusual. He bought it in Vietnam -- in the PX at Cam Ranh Bay.

"Re-enacting"? Didn't happen. That came from a journalist's account that was,in my opinion, badly worded.

There were two incidents for which Kerry was awarded a medal for valor. February 28, and March 13, 1969.

There was no filming done March 13. On Feb 28, there was some filming done that day, but nothing whatsoever that can be called re-enacting.

Doug Reese

Just not the way I understand it. Doesn't matter. Kerry was/is not Presidential material. It is a testimony to many fine and dedicated people that; #1 Kerry was never President and; #2 that Edwards was never VP. Support him if you like. I don't and wont.

O’Neill’s book says Kerry “would revisit ambush locations for re-enacting combat scenes where he would portray the hero, catching it all on film. Kerry would take movies of himself walking around in combat gear, sometimes dressed as an infantryman walking resolutely through the terrain. He even filmed mock interviews of himself narrating his exploits. A joke circulated among Swiftees was that Kerry left Vietnam early not because he received three Purple Hearts, but because he had recorded enough film of himself to take home for his planned political campaigns.”

The Boston Globe reported in 1996, noted Drudge, that the Kerry home movies “reveal something indelible about the man who shot them — the tall, thin, handsome Naval officer seen striding through the reeds in flak jacket and helmet, holding aloft the captured B-40 rocket

dougreese
05-07-2012, 09:38 PM
Lots of problems, as I recall, with his Silver Star award. His boat is fired at by a VC with a B40 rocket launcher. Instead of getting out of the area which, as I understand, was the rule he beaches his boat. The VC kid stands up holding the empty launcher and is knocked down by the twin .50's on the boat. kerry the Traitor hops off the boat, which a boat commander NEVER does, goes off on his own, finds the wounded VC kid behind a hooch and supposedly kills him. For that he gets a Silver Star. Was the kid even alive after taking a hit from a.50 cal? Nobody knows. Then, he films a re-enactment of his adventure which was shown on TV back during the 2004 campaign.

He collected a Bronze Star, 3 Hearts, Silver Star and I don't recall what else, all in less than 4 months in country. If he'd made it 6 months, at the rate he was racking up awards he'd no doubt have been the most decorated man to come out of Vietnam, maybe up to and including the Navy Cross and MoH.

*edit* kerry the Traitor wanted to equal or surpass the other JFK from Massachusetts, even if he had to cheat and lie to do it.
Sorry to come late to this conversation, but . . . . . for what it's worth . . . point by point . .

"Getting out of the area" wasn't the order of the day for this particular day, as the boat (three of them) had SVN soldiers and three US Army advisors on them. I was one of them.

The VC who fired the B-40 (who Kerry killed 2-3 minutes or so later), was 27 years old.

After he fired the B-40, the guy with him reloaded it. So, when Kerry's boat beached, the B-40 was very much loaded.

The VC was certainly not wounded by the twin-50's. He was wounded in one leg, by the forwarded M-60, which jammed after a few rounds. This is in the after-action report, and is common knowledge with those present that day.

From Kerry's boat, it did look like the VC was killed behind a hooch. In fact, Kerry killed him as he was going down a trail, when the VC was adjacent to a lean-to. There are a couple of photos out there of the VC and the lean-to.

Anyway, he was very much alive, as he had run perhaps 20-30 yards from the boat to where he was killed. Apparently he was looking over to his left -- either to see if anyone was following him, or to fire the B-40 at the Swift Boat. We'll never know, because Kerry shot him first.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the was no re-enacting. Kerry did do some filming at the site afterwards -- as we were there perhaps 45 minutes or so after everything died down -- but it was just Kerry walking thru the bush for a moment. It wasn't even close to re-enacting anything.

Doug Reese

dougreese
05-07-2012, 09:42 PM
Just not the way I understand it. Doesn't matter. Kerry was/is not Presidential material. It is a testimony to many fine and dedicated people that; #1 Kerry was never President and; #2 that Edwards was never VP. Support him if you like. I don't and wont.
This has nothing to do with supporting Kerry.

As for the "re-enacting", there isn't one single witness to such a thing, even though the Swift Boats went out at least three at a time. And that's why O'Neill didn't quote anyone, just passed on misinformation, which he was very good at doing.

Doug Reese

Chuck58
05-07-2012, 10:31 PM
Sorry to come late to this conversation, but . . . . . for what it's worth . . . point by point . .

"Getting out of the area" wasn't the order of the day for this particular day, as the boat (three of them) had SVN soldiers and three US Army advisors on them. I was one of them.

The VC who fired the B-40 (who Kerry killed 2-3 minutes or so later), was 27 years old.

After he fired the B-40, the guy with him reloaded it. So, when Kerry's boat beached, the B-40 was very much loaded.

The VC was certainly not wounded by the twin-50's. He was wounded in one leg, by the forwarded M-60, which jammed after a few rounds. This is in the after-action report, and is common knowledge with those present that day.

From Kerry's boat, it did look like the VC was killed behind a hooch. In fact, Kerry killed him as he was going down a trail, when the VC was adjacent to a lean-to. There are a couple of photos out there of the VC and the lean-to.

Anyway, he was very much alive, as he had run perhaps 20-30 yards from the boat to where he was killed. Apparently he was looking over to his left -- either to see if anyone was following him, or to fire the B-40 at the Swift Boat. We'll never know, because Kerry shot him first.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the was no re-enacting. Kerry did do some filming at the site afterwards -- as we were there perhaps 45 minutes or so after everything died down -- but it was just Kerry walking thru the bush for a moment. It wasn't even close to re-enacting anything.

Doug Reese

Like I said, I wish I'd had the opportunity to save all the information we accumulated on our site in 2004. Virtually everything you've said is, going by my memory, opposite of reports we had on this incident, right down to the age of the VC with the rocket launcher. I can't refute your statement because I no longer have names or statements of the guys involved.

I can say that you're correct concerning the re-enacting. The videos weren't a re-enactment of the event and that was poor wording on my part.

*edit* The remainder of your post, we'll just have to agree to disagree based on the information we gathered or that was voluntarily given to us.

Starbuck
05-07-2012, 11:16 PM
This has nothing to do with supporting Kerry.

As for the "re-enacting", there isn't one single witness to such a thing, even though the Swift Boats went out at least three at a time. And that's why O'Neill didn't quote anyone, just passed on misinformation, which he was very good at doing.

Doug Reese

OK, let me try to explain it this way:
I don't care if everything the swift boaters said was a total fabrication. I don't care whether Kerry was some kind of hero or not. I don't like the sumbitch, I voted just so I could vote against him because I think his is an inflated windbag, an egomaniac, a self centered sicko, and is personally ambitious. There is something icky about him marrying TWO fantastically rich women and I am not about to stand around while left wing zealots put him in the Oval Office so that we can all find out just how icky he is.

As far as I am concerned defeating John Kerry ranks right up there with defeating the Japanese in WWII.

The U.S. won; Kerry lost.

Chuck58
05-07-2012, 11:26 PM
I also think it's damned interesting that the dems/left/socialists are hammering on Romney being rich but not a peep from them about kerry the Traitor's several hundred million dollars back in 2004. I wonder how much of his (or his wife's money since he's basically a gigolo) money is in offshore accounts?

Odysseus
05-08-2012, 11:31 PM
I also think it's damned interesting that the dems/left/socialists are hammering on Romney being rich but not a peep from them about kerry the Traitor's several hundred million dollars back in 2004. I wonder how much of his (or his wife's money since he's basically a gigolo) money is in offshore accounts?

What do you mean by "basically"? The man is the gold standard for gigolos.

Chuck58
05-09-2012, 01:36 PM
And I read somewhere, can't find it now, that if Dear Leader is re-elected and Hillary doesn't stay, kerry the Traitor might be up for consideration as Sec of State.

I can't verify the above since I can't find the link, so I could be wrong.

Rockntractor
05-09-2012, 01:45 PM
And I read somewhere, can't find it now, that if Dear Leader is re-elected and Hillary doesn't stay, kerry the Traitor might be up for consideration as Sec of State.

I can't verify the above since I can't find the link, so I could be wrong.

http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2011/02/04/john-kerry-future-secretary-of-state/

Chuck58
05-09-2012, 02:11 PM
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2011/02/04/john-kerry-future-secretary-of-state/

That's it, and kerry's people deny it but there's also rumors that Hillary doesn't want a second term. True or not, this is just one more of a long list of reasons to put obama in the unemployment line in November.

Odysseus
05-09-2012, 04:47 PM
And I read somewhere, can't find it now, that if Dear Leader is re-elected and Hillary doesn't stay, kerry the Traitor might be up for consideration as Sec of State.

I can't verify the above since I can't find the link, so I could be wrong.

Well, on the plus side, Kerry is very good at finding rich, gullible women, and if he were to put that skillset to work on behalf of the United States, we might be able to marry our way out of our debt crisis. :biggrin-new: