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Apocalypse
05-07-2012, 07:06 PM
San Diego, CA (AP) (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/05/06/state/n103532D83.DTL&tsp=1) — The military has christened its newest cargo-ammunition ship for civil rights leader and labor activist Cesar Chavez, who served in the Navy during World War II.


The Los Angeles Times reports a champagne bottle was broken over the ship’s bow during a ceremony Saturday night at the General Dynamics NASSCO shipyard in San Diego.


The 689 foot vessel will join the Military Sealift Command and bring ammunition, food, fuel and other supplies to U.S. ships at sea.


The ship’s sponsor is Chavez’s widow, Helen Fabela Chavez.


Chavez joined the Navy in 1944 at age 17 and served for two years.


He led United Farm Workers union grape boycotts and raised awareness of the plight Hispanic agricultural workers

.


-----------

Any outrage in the Mil.?

Gina
05-07-2012, 07:43 PM
U.S. Navy Christens Ship Named After Socialist Union Organizer

Just a first glance at the thread title and I thought Obama at first. =O

Rockntractor
05-07-2012, 07:55 PM
U.S. Navy Christens Ship Named After Socialist Union Organizer

Just a first glance at the thread title and I thought Obama at first. =O

That would be bad luck, everything his name has been connected with has been underwater the last 3 1/2 years.

ABC in Georgia
05-07-2012, 07:59 PM
The Los Angeles Times reports a champagne bottle was broken over the ship’s bow during a ceremony Saturday night at the General Dynamics NASSCO shipyard in San Diego.

This is an incredibly, unforgiveable, insult to everything that the freedom loving Americans among us, believe in, and our soldiers have fought and died for!

Then again, "the times they are a-changin'" ... things seem to be eroding quickly all around us, with this loathesome president and bastard of a CiC. that we have at the moment.

Mercy, how I detest this man!!!!

~ ABC

ASquareDealer
05-07-2012, 08:28 PM
Refresh my memory please...What did Cesar Chavez do that made him such a bad guy? It says he served honorably in the Navy for two years and he fought for higher wages...I don't see what's bad about that. Most of the soldiers in WWII would probably be called Socialist today given that generation's support of FDR and the New Deal. If a guy serves this country's military honorably, and later fights for better conditions for American workers, I don't see what the big deal is.

Should a ship really be named after him? No, not at all. He's not a Navy hero or even a war hero. But if someone was a valorous war hero for our Navy, and also happened to be a Socialist, I wouldn't protest if a ship was christened with their name.

JB
05-07-2012, 08:44 PM
...and also happened to be a Socialist, I wouldn't protest if a ship was christened with their name.Socialists should not even have the bathrooms at gay porn theaters named after them.

ABC in Georgia
05-07-2012, 08:48 PM
Refresh my memory please...What did Cesar Chavez do that made him such a bad guy?

Simple four word answer!

He was a Socialist.

Socialism is an anathema to freedom loving citizens.

~ ABC

Rockntractor
05-07-2012, 08:50 PM
Most of the soldiers in WWII would probably be called Socialist today given that generation's support of FDR and the New Deal. I

All of my relatives and friends that served in WWII would consider what you just said to be quite an insult, most of them are gone now and I'm glad they never heard your drivel.

Apocalypse
05-07-2012, 09:35 PM
Refresh my memory please...What did Cesar Chavez do that made him such a bad guy? It says he served honorably in the Navy for two years and he fought for higher wages...I don't see what's bad about that. Most of the soldiers in WWII would probably be called Socialist today given that generation's support of FDR and the New Deal. If a guy serves this country's military honorably, and later fights for better conditions for American workers, I don't see what the big deal is.

Should a ship really be named after him? No, not at all. He's not a Navy hero or even a war hero. But if someone was a valorous war hero for our Navy, and also happened to be a Socialist, I wouldn't protest if a ship was christened with their name.
Well lets see here. By what you wrote, it proves beyond a doubt you know nothing.

Here are some "Facts" for you.


In the early 1940s the Chavez family settled in Delano, a small farm town in the California’s San Joaquin valley, where Cesar would spend his teenage years. In 1946, 17 year-old Cesar Chavez enlisted in the Navy, spending what he would later describe as “the two worst years of my life.”

Lets honor a guy who referred to his time in the Navy, mind you two years as the "Worst years of my life". By naming a Navy ship after him.


Also Chavez was a pacifist. Think it honors a man who dedicated his life to non violence to name an ammunition ship after him?

ABC in Georgia
05-07-2012, 09:44 PM
Lets honor a guy who referred to his time in the Navy, mind you two years as the "Worst years of my life". By naming a Navy ship after him.


Also Chavez was a pacifist. Think it honors a man who dedicated his life to non violence to name an ammunition ship after him?

:applause: ... and a pat on the back from me, Apocalypse!

Great comeback!

ABC ... :love_heart:

ASquareDealer
05-08-2012, 09:44 AM
Well lets see here. By what you wrote, it proves beyond a doubt you know nothing.

Here are some "Facts" for you.



Lets honor a guy who referred to his time in the Navy, mind you two years as the "Worst years of my life". By naming a Navy ship after him.


Also Chavez was a pacifist. Think it honors a man who dedicated his life to non violence to name an ammunition ship after him?

I looked it up, you are correct, and I did say that a ship shouldn't be named after him because his life and career had little/nothing to do with the Navy. It's not like he was Desmond Doss, who was a pacifist due to his religion and yet still was a brave medic or something. The guy spent two years in the Navy and the rest of his life doing stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with the Navy. If he was a guy who spent two years in, and then spent the rest of his life funding private veterans' hospitals, or fighting to improve troop quarters or increase veterans' benefits, it might be understandable. But his life and work outside of a 2 year frame had nothing to do with the military. It's like they arbitrarily chose a name of someone historically significant or whatever. Having read that, I think THAT is what is more insulting--That they named a ship after someone, the majority of whose career had nothing to do with the military. It'd be like naming a ship after Lee Harvey Oswald because Oswald spent some time in the Marines.

I wasn't defending their decision based on his credentials, because he did nothing to merit this honor. I had a feeling most of the anger here came from him being a Socialist. I just feel if a man serves valiantly and loyally and does heroic acts for this country, it shouldn't matter what his politics are---A war hero is still a war hero. I wouldn't begrudge someone who fought and witnessed horrors and did valiant things in spite of it an honor simply because of their politics. I have a great respect for our troops, especially those who served in the major wars--WWII, Korea, Vietnam--because they went through hell for the causes of this country, and in WWII's case, the liberation of the world from tyranny. So don't take it as disrespect to troops, take it as I don't judge someone solely by their political leanings. I'd rather talk to a Socialist than to someone who is utterly apathetic and uncaring about politics because someone who doesn't vote (as a matter of habit, not once or twice) is basically refusing their civic duty.

Articulate_Ape
05-08-2012, 10:34 AM
What's next, the USS Geraldo Rivera? Jesus wept.

Odysseus
05-08-2012, 10:38 AM
I looked it up, you are correct, and I did say that a ship shouldn't be named after him because his life and career had little/nothing to do with the Navy. It's not like he was Desmond Doss, who was a pacifist due to his religion and yet still was a brave medic or something. The guy spent two years in the Navy and the rest of his life doing stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with the Navy. If he was a guy who spent two years in, and then spent the rest of his life funding private veterans' hospitals, or fighting to improve troop quarters or increase veterans' benefits, it might be understandable. But his life and work outside of a 2 year frame had nothing to do with the military. It's like they arbitrarily chose a name of someone historically significant or whatever. Having read that, I think THAT is what is more insulting--That they named a ship after someone, the majority of whose career had nothing to do with the military. It'd be like naming a ship after Lee Harvey Oswald because Oswald spent some time in the Marines.

The objection is not simply his socialism, but because he spent his career undermining the US economy, and because he was a vicious opportunist who wasn't above turning Mexicans over to immigraiton if they refused to support his agenda. There is simply nothing there that warrants naming a ship after him. That is an honor that is reserved for those whose service to the nation is beyond a doubt.


I wasn't defending their decision based on his credentials, because he did nothing to merit this honor. I had a feeling most of the anger here came from him being a Socialist. I just feel if a man serves valiantly and loyally and does heroic acts for this country, it shouldn't matter what his politics are---A war hero is still a war hero. I wouldn't begrudge someone who fought and witnessed horrors and did valiant things in spite of it an honor simply because of their politics. I have a great respect for our troops, especially those who served in the major wars--WWII, Korea, Vietnam--because they went through hell for the causes of this country, and in WWII's case, the liberation of the world from tyranny.

There was a USMC General, Smedley Butler, who has the distinction of two separate awards of the Medal of Honor, whose politics were a mix of rabid socialism and paranoid delusions. He claimed to have been a gangster for capitalism and derided war as a "racket". He also claimed that he had been approached by a cabal of right-wing businessmen to lead a coup against Roosevelt, despite the fact that his politics were somewhere to the left of Lenin's, and he'd have been the last person to be approached for that reason, if no other. He was a great Marine and General, but he was also a leftist loon who ultimately was passed over as Commandant of the Marine Corps because of his political and mental instability. There are a number of things named after him, and no one begrudges him those honors. But, Chavez has earned no honors from the US military, disdained us for his entire life and career and undermined us at every turn. He does not deserve this.



So don't take it as disrespect to troops, take it as I don't judge someone solely by their political leanings. I'd rather talk to a Socialist than to someone who is utterly apathetic and uncaring about politics because someone who doesn't vote (as a matter of habit, not once or twice) is basically refusing their civic duty.

A fervent socialist isn't better than an apathetic, apolitical person. The socialist seeks to undermine American liberty through the application of a totalitarian, coercive agenda.

Novaheart
05-08-2012, 11:06 AM
This is an incredibly, unforgiveable, insult to everything that the freedom loving Americans among us, believe in, and our soldiers have fought and died for!

Then again, "the times they are a-changin'" ... things seem to be eroding quickly all around us, with this loathesome president and bastard of a CiC. that we have at the moment.

Mercy, how I detest this man!!!!

~ ABC

Can you name another person whose name is synonymous with fighting for a better life for field workers?

Novaheart
05-08-2012, 11:17 AM
Socialists should not even have the bathrooms at gay porn theaters named after them.

Have you scrutinized the politics of everyone whose name is on a naval vessel? Or is it simply that you happen to recognize this one name?

Odysseus
05-08-2012, 11:58 AM
Can you name another person whose name is synonymous with fighting for a better life for field workers?

Then name a farm after him, if you can find one that is still in business.

I can name several whose names should be synonymous with fighting for a better life for field workers: Adam Smith, FA Von Hayek, Ludwig Von Mises, Frederick Bastiat, Edmund Burke...

ABC in Georgia
05-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Nova ...

No, at the moment cannot name another fighter for field workers, but is still not a reason to name a Navy ship after Chavez, regardless.

Here however, is more insight as to the reason Nav. Sec. Ray Maybus did it. Is from The American Spectator.


Tar and Feathers for Ray Mabus
By Jed Babbin on 2.20.12 @ 6:08AM

Back in the Reagan days, the phrase "personnel is policy" revealed an insight on how Washington works. Any administration is more likely to succeed if it hires the best people who are ideologically oriented to its goals. If your agenda is radically-liberal, as Obama's is, you would choose someone like Ray Mabus, a former Mississippi governor, to be your Navy secretary.


Navy Secretary Mabus, like Obama, believes that our armed services are political tools, playthings to be splashed about like toys in a toddler's bathtub. Yes, they are all too willing to bask in the glories of DEVGRU (aka, SEAL Team 6), but the credit for those achievements is JFK's, not theirs.


Under Mabus and Obama, our Navy has shrunk to World War I levels, women are serving on submarines and we are spending untold millions or billions on "greening" the navy. The Marine Corps is about to be cut massively and the navy's shipbuilding program is being delayed, resulting in a force that may be over-stressed or even incapable of doing its job in the next crisis.

Read more here: http://spectator.org/archives/2012/02/20/tar-and-feathers-for-ray-mabus/print

~ ABC

Gina
05-08-2012, 12:48 PM
Then name a farm after him, if you can find one that is still in business.

I can name several whose names should be synonymous with fighting for a better life for field workers: Adam Smith, FA Von Hayek, Ludwig Von Mises, Frederick Bastiat, Edmund Burke...

It's FA Hayek's birthday today. :love_heart:

ABC in Georgia
05-08-2012, 12:51 PM
Meant to add to my last post, #17 ...

What better time to name a ship after Chavez, than in this all important re-election campaign for his, Maybus' ... most revered "Dear Leader!"

It makes me want to heave! ... :vomit:

~ ABC (and outta here!)

Wibbins
05-08-2012, 04:17 PM
Wasn't chavez responsible for killing a lot of people in the name of socialism?

I want to say he basically ordered people killed if they spoke against him...

Novaheart
05-08-2012, 06:45 PM
Wasn't chavez responsible for killing a lot of people in the name of socialism?

I want to say he basically ordered people killed if they spoke against him...

That was Linda Chavez.

ABC in Georgia
05-08-2012, 08:00 PM
That was Linda Chavez.

Very witty, Nova, I must admit!

However, the closest she ever came to being in anyway remotely associated with "socialists" was when she worked with the American Federation of Teachers ... which she left in 1985 ... and became a Republican!

~ ABC

Odysseus
05-08-2012, 08:11 PM
That was Linda Chavez.

Are you taking a page from Arroyo and substituting snark for argument?

Cesar Chavez ratted out illegals to immigration if they wouldn't toe the line and join his unions, despite the fact that he was supposedly a champion of illegals.

JB
05-08-2012, 08:42 PM
Have you scrutinized the politics of everyone whose name is on a naval vessel? Or is it simply that you happen to recognize this one name?I said Socialists dude. If you're a Socialist, no boats get named after you. Whether I know your name or not.

ABC in Georgia
05-08-2012, 08:42 PM
Are you taking a page from Arroyo and substituting snark for argument?

Nova knows full well, all that Chavez was responsible for ... after all who knows better than lefties, as to what their "heroes" have done?

I don't honestly think he was being "snarky", ODY. I could be wrong, but ... I really think he was simply interjecting a bit of humor.

Although, I do agree with you, it was a much easier way out than debating the more salient points of the issue.

~ ABC

Novaheart
05-08-2012, 10:14 PM
Nova knows full well, all that Chavez was responsible for ... after all who knows better than lefties, as to what their "heroes" have done?

I don't honestly think he was being "snarky", ODY. I could be wrong, but ... I really think he was simply interjecting a bit of humor.

Although, I do agree with you, it was a much easier way out than debating the more salient points of the issue.

~ ABC

I started taking a Spanish language class last night in anticipation of my move to rural California. I want to know how to say, "Get on the ground dirtbag and don't you move or I'll blast a hole in your head." But we just started with vowel sounds and rolling our rrrrrs.

ASquareDealer
05-09-2012, 10:52 PM
I said Socialists dude. If you're a Socialist, no boats get named after you. Whether I know your name or not.

So if Audie Murphy had been a Socialist, his name should never have been honored, no matter what good he had done?

Odysseus
05-10-2012, 12:14 AM
So if Audie Murphy had been a Socialist, his name should never have been honored, no matter what good he had done?

The problem isn't simply that they named a ship after a socialist, it's that they named a ship after someone who had never done anything for America except try to advance socialism. Chavez' military record was marginal and his career as a labor cartel organizer was hardly the kind of thing that the Navy should be celebrating. Like I said before, the Marines have a Camp Butler, named for General Smedley Butler, who was a great Marine, but a complete loon when it came to politics and economics.

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 09:29 AM
The problem isn't simply that they named a ship after a socialist, it's that they named a ship after someone who had never done anything for America except try to advance socialism. Chavez' military record was marginal and his career as a labor cartel organizer was hardly the kind of thing that the Navy should be celebrating. Like I said before, the Marines have a Camp Butler, named for General Smedley Butler, who was a great Marine, but a complete loon when it came to politics and economics.

We name ships after politicians. You were saying?

Bailey
05-10-2012, 09:47 AM
We name ships after politicians. You were saying?

At least politicians serve this country, I am still waiting on what Chavez has done to better this country.

txradioguy
05-10-2012, 10:04 AM
We name ships after politicians. You were saying?

He did nothing to distinguish himself to become being worthy of having a ship named for him.

THAT is what we're saying.

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 10:05 AM
At least politicians serve this country, I am still waiting on what Chavez has done to better this country.

Some ships are named to be inclusive of demographics. How you feel about Cesar Chavez is irrelevant; he's a person of importantance to the Latino or Mexican-American citizenry much the same way we might feel that blacks feel about Medgar Evers.


USNS Medgar Evers (T-AKE 13) (under construction). Named in honor of civil rights activist Medgar Evers (1925-1963) who forever changed race relations in America. At a time when our country was wrestling to end segregation and racial injustice, Evers led efforts to secure the right to vote for all African Americans and to integrate public facilities, schools, and restaurants. On June 12, 1963, the Mississippi native was assassinated in the driveway of his home.

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 10:06 AM
He did nothing to distinguish himself to become being worthy of having a ship named for him.

THAT is what we're saying.

And I am saying that you aren't applying the same scrutiny to all persons for whom a ship has been named.

txradioguy
05-10-2012, 10:06 AM
Some ships are named to be inclusive of demographics. How you feel about Cesar Chavez is irrelevant; he's a person of importantance to the Latino or Mexican-American citizenry much the same way we might feel that blacks feel about Medgar Evers.


USNS Medgar Evers (T-AKE 13) (under construction). Named in honor of civil rights activist Medgar Evers (1925-1963) who forever changed race relations in America. At a time when our country was wrestling to end segregation and racial injustice, Evers led efforts to secure the right to vote for all African Americans and to integrate public facilities, schools, and restaurants. On June 12, 1963, the Mississippi native was assassinated in the driveway of his home.




I don't think Evers deserved to have a ship named after him either.

What's next...the USS Malcolm X?

txradioguy
05-10-2012, 10:07 AM
And I am saying that you aren't applying the same scrutiny to all persons for whom a ship has been named.

Yes...I am...but thanks for playing anyway.

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 10:07 AM
At least politicians serve this country, I am still waiting on what Chavez has done to better this country.

Politicians serve themselves and line their pockets while doing it.

Rockntractor
05-10-2012, 10:10 AM
Politicians serve themselves and line their pockets while doing it.

Is that not what you do when you work?

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 12:21 PM
Is that not what you do when you work?

Surely you aren't calling politicianing honest labor. Are you?

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 12:31 PM
I don't think Evers deserved to have a ship named after him either.

What's next...the USS Malcolm X?

The naming of naval vessels has never been limited to a naval practice of honoring itself.

We have four ships named after Indian tribes, but no one bitches about that. Can you imagine if in addition to the Navajo, Apache, whatever 1, and whatever 2, we also had the USS Anglo Saxon, USS Afro-American, USS Polack, USS Italiano, etc...?

Rockntractor
05-10-2012, 12:36 PM
The naming of naval vessels has never been limited to a naval practice of honoring itself.

We have four ships named after Indian tribes, but no one bitches about that. Can you imagine if in addition to the Navajo, Apache, whatever 1, and whatever 2, we also had the USS Anglo Saxon, USS Afro-American, USS Polack, USS Italiano, etc...?

Before Obama is out we'll have the SS Brown Hole and a Sub named SS Muff Diver.

Odysseus
05-10-2012, 12:42 PM
We name ships after politicians. You were saying?
Politicians have the distinction of holding official offices within the United States Government, which is considered a form of public service (especially to hear them tell it). Chavez never held a position of trust in the US, and his military service was, at best, marginal.

Surely you aren't calling politicianing honest labor. Are you?
I'm sure that he isn't, and don't call him "Shirley."

The naming of naval vessels has never been limited to a naval practice of honoring itself.

We have four ships named after Indian tribes, but no one bitches about that. Can you imagine if in addition to the Navajo, Apache, whatever 1, and whatever 2, we also had the USS Anglo Saxon, USS Afro-American, USS Polack, USS Italiano, etc...?

The USS Pollack was a submarine that sank when the screen door was left open during a dive. :biggrin-new:

You seem to be arguing that Chavez warranted having a US Naval vessel named after him. Why do you think that this is so?

JB
05-10-2012, 07:21 PM
So if Audie Murphy had been a Socialist, his name should never have been honored, no matter what good he had done?Seriously? That's your reply?

Tell you what...find me a ship named after a socialist and then I'll comment.

Othewise, if your Aunt had balls she'd be your Uncle.

Novaheart
05-10-2012, 10:59 PM
Seriously? That's your reply?

Tell you what...find me a ship named after a socialist and then I'll comment.

Othewise, if your Aunt had balls she'd be your Uncle.

Let's see now: A socialist wants a government job, a government house, government healthcare, government retirement, government education benefits, ...........

Zathras
05-11-2012, 01:54 AM
Politicians have the distinction of holding official offices within the United States Government, which is considered a form of public service (especially to hear them tell it). Chavez never held a position of trust in the US, and his military service was, at best, marginal.

I'm sure that he isn't, and don't call him "Shirley."


The USS Pollack was a submarine that sank when the screen door was left open during a dive. :biggrin-new:

You seem to be arguing that Chavez warranted having a US Naval vessel named after him. Why do you think that this is so?

Ummm, Ody? There actually was a submarine named USS Pollack (SSN-603). She was a member of the Thresher/Permit class of SSN's. Launched on March 17th, 1962 and commisioned on 26 May, 1964. She served with honor till she was decomissioned on 1 March, 1989.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pollack_(SSN-603))

txradioguy
05-11-2012, 01:55 AM
Let's see now: A socialist wants a government job, a government house, government healthcare, government retirement, government education benefits, ...........

Describing yourself again I see...

txradioguy
05-11-2012, 01:57 AM
We name ships after politicians. You were saying?

We were saying that you don't name ships after someone who was trained and taught personally by Saul Alinsky.

Odysseus
05-11-2012, 08:37 AM
Seriously? That's your reply?

Tell you what...find me a ship named after a socialist and then I'll comment.

Othewise, if your Aunt had balls she'd be your Uncle.
Uh..., Remember MG Butler, the USMC general who was a raving socialist?


USS Butler (DD-636), a Gleaves-class destroyer, is the only ship of the United States Navy to be named for Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, twice awarded the Medal of Honor.

Butler was launched on 12 February 1942 by Philadelphia Navy Yard, sponsored by Mrs. John Wehle, daughter of General Butler; and commissioned on 15 August 1942, Lieutenant Commander M. D. Matthews in command.

Sorry, dude, but it has happened.


Let's see now: A socialist wants a government job, a government house, government healthcare, government retirement, government education benefits, ...........

And a ship named after him. But, once again, why does Chavez, in your opinion, warrant this honor?


Ummm, Ody? There actually was a submarine named USS Pollack (SSN-603). She was a member of the Thresher/Permit class of SSN's. Launched on March 17th, 1962 and commisioned on 26 May, 1964. She served with honor till she was decomissioned on 1 March, 1989.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pollack_(SSN-603))

I know. I was making a funny.

JB
05-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Remember MG Butler, the USMC general who was a raving socialist?

Sorry, dude, but it has happened.I didn't say it didn't happen just that I wasn't going to play a "what if" game.

I don't know much about the man's politics but I do see he ran for Senate as an R.

Odysseus
05-11-2012, 07:55 PM
I didn't say it didn't happen just that I wasn't going to play a "what if" game.

I don't know much about the man's politics but I do see he ran for Senate as an R.

Yeah, but a progressive R. And he used to address Socialist and CPUSA gatherings, where he would talk about his career as a "gangster for capitalism". He was a political loon, but a great Marine.

The problem with naming a ship after Chavez isn't his politics, it's that he never did anything on behalf of the United States. His career was spent pursuing power for its own sake, and his military service was the bare minimum of what he could get away with. He doesn't warrant this honor.