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Retread
06-11-2012, 05:41 PM
A little lite reading for the Atheists, atheists, gnostics and agnostics but most especially for those who want to outlaw the Bible and it's believers.

We know this to be true.. but our grandchildren will not unless we hand them the information; to ponder and hopefully understand...!!

The email (http://www.vfvs.com/OurRealRoots.html)

Opps - almost forgot the 50 states buyin (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/god-constitutions.htm)

Generation Why?
06-11-2012, 06:23 PM
Ok, I will bite: What is your point? I am an atheist and I sure as hell don't want any religion to be banned, presecuted, etc etc. At the same time, I do not want someone's religious opinions to be deciding factor for laws. Because my mother thinks something is immoral in the eyes of God, does not mean it should be illegal to all. That simple. You can have morality without the Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. With that said, have a good day.

Chuck58
06-11-2012, 09:54 PM
A little lite reading for the Atheists, atheists, gnostics and agnostics but most especially for those who want to outlaw the Bible and it's believers.

We know this to be true.. but our grandchildren will not unless we hand them the information; to ponder and hopefully understand...!!

The email (http://www.vfvs.com/OurRealRoots.html)

Opps - almost forgot the 50 states buyin (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/god-constitutions.htm)

Great information Retread. I knew some of the info but quite a lot is new to me. I've got it bookmarked. It's worth going over again, and again.

Retread
06-11-2012, 11:14 PM
And having notes in your pocket for when you run into those who try to claim different.

Starbuck
06-11-2012, 11:43 PM
Ok, I will bite: What is your point? I am an atheist and I sure as hell don't want any religion to be banned, presecuted, etc etc. At the same time, I do not want someone's religious opinions to be deciding factor for laws. Because my mother thinks something is immoral in the eyes of God, does not mean it should be illegal to all. That simple. You can have morality without the Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. With that said, have a good day.

Yeah, I'm not getting the point, either. Anyway, many of the founders were Deists, not Christians.

Here, for example is Jefferson:

.......Thomas Jefferson was editing the Bible, a book regarded by most of his fellow Americans as the word of God. The act was certainly presumptuous, perhaps blasphemous. But Jefferson found the task simple. The worthy parts of the Bible were easily distinguishable from the worthless—“as distinguishable,” he later wrote in a letter to John Adams, “as diamonds in a dunghill.”

Using the passages he sliced out of his Bibles, Jefferson created a new book, which he called, “The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth.” He had it bound but he never published it, and he told only a handful of close friends about it. His copy—the only copy that ever existed—later disappeared and is now lost to history.

But sixteen years later, he created another. In 1820, retired from politics and living at Monticello, Jefferson sat down again, at the age of seventy-seven, to edit the Bible. He purchased six Bibles—two in English, two in French, and two containing both Latin and Greek—and cut them up, creating a second edited version of the New Testament, in four languages.

In this book, he kept the words of Jesus and some of his deeds, but left out the miracles and any suggestion that Jesus is God. The virgin birth is gone. So is Jesus walking on water, multiplying the loaves and fishes, and raising Lazarus from the dead. Jefferson’s version ends with Jesus’ burial on Good Friday. There is no resurrection, no Easter Sunday. Jefferson called this version “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.”
http://thehumanist.org/march-april-2012/the-bible-according-to-thomas-jefferson/

The text goes on to say that if Jefferson were running for President today his chances of success would be torpedoed by his religious beliefs.................He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.”

Read it for yourself...:single_eye:

Gina
06-12-2012, 09:56 AM
It would be silly to ban the Bible, many of our laws are based on its principles.

wasp69
06-12-2012, 11:14 AM
You can have morality without the Bible, Torah, Quran, etc.

Tell me, how well has this country done socially since the libs proclaimed God dead and crowned themselves as their own highest power? How would you rate the morality of this country today as opposed to the 1950s?

wasp69
06-12-2012, 11:28 AM
Anyway, many of the founders were Deists, not Christians.


I keep hearing this repeated, with reams of analysis from those that would rewrite history to their own liking, but have yet to see anything convincing in the way of historical quotes in context.



Here, for example is Jefferson:


No, that is not Jefferson, that is a cut and paste from an organization with an agenda.

Generation Why?
06-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Tell me, how well has this country done socially since the libs proclaimed God dead and crowned themselves as their own highest power? How would you rate the morality of this country today as opposed to the 1950s?

I cannot speak for the country, only myself. Many liberals believe in God, too. Don't get too deep into the myth that every last one is a Pagan. With that said, my morality can be closely related to Abraham Lincoln's views. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad." You don't need scripture for that. And yes many of our laws are similar to religious text but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only reason they are laws. I do not need a book to tell me it is wrong to kill someone, self-defense aside. I don't need a book to tell me it is wrong to take that which isn't mine. But that is just me.

Starbuck
06-12-2012, 12:47 PM
I keep hearing this repeated, with reams of analysis from those that would rewrite history to their own liking, but have yet to see anything convincing in the way of historical quotes in context.



No, that is not Jefferson, that is a cut and paste from an organization with an agenda.

Meh.... I gave you the link from The Humanist, which seems genuine enough to me. You rejected it and said you haven't seen evidence.

OK. But just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there. About the only thing I could recommend is that you go to The Smithsonian Institution and ask if you can read The Jefferson Bible for yourself. Who knows? Maybe they'll let you.:smile-new:

wasp69
06-12-2012, 01:56 PM
Meh.... I gave you the link from The Humanist, which seems genuine enough to me. You rejected it and said you haven't seen evidence.


It's not evidence, it's analysis to fit an agenda. That you accept it as "genuine" is irrelevant.

However, I will gladly share some quotes with you from the man himself:



My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.

--Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803




To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others...

--Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803




In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

--A National Prayer For Peace, March 4, 1805




A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

--Letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816, regarding his book, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth:


Extremely contrarian to what the humanist.org website tries to tell you, isn't it?



OK. But just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there.


Really? Tell me more, please...



About the only thing I could recommend is that you go to The Smithsonian Institution and ask if you can read The Jefferson Bible for yourself. Who knows? Maybe they'll let you.:smile-new:

Why is it the "Jefferson Bible" exists? Can you tell me what his reasoning for making it was?

wasp69
06-12-2012, 02:09 PM
I cannot speak for the country, only myself.

Fair enough.



Many liberals believe in God, too. Don't get too deep into the myth that every last one is a Pagan.


Oh, I don't believe that every last one is a Pagan, far from it. To be Pagan is to acknowledge faith in something greater than yourself. If I had ascribe anything to anyone that believes they are their own highest power, it would be LaVey Satanism.



With that said, my morality can be closely related to Abraham Lincoln's views. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad."


Which means, to you, morality is subjective to what you say it is.



You don't need scripture for that.


No, you most certainly don't.



And yes many of our laws are similar to religious text but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only reason they are laws.


Really? So what basis, other than religious text, was used? What basis of morality was used if not from the Holy Bible?



I do not need a book to tell me it is wrong to kill someone, self-defense aside. I don't need a book to tell me it is wrong to take that which isn't mine. But that is just me.


Yeah? So how did you figure it out, what was your basis for your humanity and morality?

Gina
06-12-2012, 02:17 PM
go to The Smithsonian Institution and ask if you can read The Jefferson Bible for yourself
Not necessary. I got mine off Amazon.com :smile-new:

Generation Why?
06-12-2012, 02:21 PM
Really? So what basis, other than religious text, was used? What basis of morality was used if not from the Holy Bible?



Yeah? So how did you figure it out, what was your basis for your humanity and morality?



There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.

Starbuck
06-12-2012, 02:24 PM
There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.
Well, they gonna have to be pretty deep in the jungle!:smile-new:
Christians have been hacking at the undergrowth for a couple thousand years, now. But, still, the Christian sites claim that 42% of the world's population have not been told the story. So they keep sending youths from our town to Nicaragua.........go figure:biggrin-new:

Generation Why?
06-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Well, they gonna have to be pretty deep in the jungle!:smile-new:
Christians have been hacking at the undergrowth for a couple thousand years, now. But, still, the Christian sites claim that 42% of the world's population have not been told the story. So they keep sending youths from our town to Nicaragua.........go figure:biggrin-new:

Yeah my little sister went to Panama last year with her church. You know, because all those Catholic Panamanians need to hear about Jesus. But then again, not letting her go to Africa.

AmPat
06-12-2012, 02:41 PM
I cannot speak for the country, only myself. Many liberals believe in God, too. Don't get too deep into the myth that every last one is a Pagan. With that said, my morality can be closely related to Abraham Lincoln's views. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad." You don't need scripture for that. And yes many of our laws are similar to religious text but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only reason they are laws. I do not need a book to tell me it is wrong to kill someone, self-defense aside. I don't need a book to tell me it is wrong to take that which isn't mine. But that is just me.
I'd argue that the knowledge of good and evil comes from God and is not dependent on the written word. God can write that knowledge into our very DNA.

It would be silly to ban the Bible, many of our laws are based on its principles.True, which is the point of an article like this. Our atheists are trying to convince us they "don't get it." this seems disengenuous to me.


Tell me, how well has this country done socially since the libs proclaimed God dead and crowned themselves as their own highest power? How would you rate the morality of this country today as opposed to the 1950s?Not well. Liberals will now pile on with all manner of quibbling little, pathetically inadequate defenses of their various sins.


Ok, I will bite: What is your point? I am an atheist and I sure as hell don't want any religion to be banned, presecuted, etc etc. At the same time, I do not want someone's religious opinions to be deciding factor for laws. Because my mother thinks something is immoral in the eyes of God, does not mean it should be illegal to all. That simple. You can have morality without the Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. With that said, have a good day.But not without God. If there is no God, there is no reason to constrain yourself, no matter how many bones you have stitched into your nose.


Yeah, I'm not getting the point, either. Anyway, many of the founders were Deists, not Christians.

Here, for example is Jefferson:

http://thehumanist.org/march-april-2012/the-bible-according-to-thomas-jefferson/

The text goes on to say that if Jefferson were running for President today his chances of success would be torpedoed by his religious beliefs.................He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.”

Read it for yourself...:single_eye:Jefferson was a Christian. That is all you need to "get."


There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.Not true. You can appreciate all manner of things and still destroy them. You may snuff out the life of somebody and justify it as essential. The very fact you felt it necessary to justify it speaks of an internal right and wrong. Where does that come from?


Yeah my little sister went to Panama last year with her church. You know, because all those Catholic Panamanians need to hear about Jesus. But then again, not letting her go to Africa.I just got back from Panama and I can tell you the Catholic church is nearly as dead as in Europe and also the USA. The growing and thriving movement is evangelicals (AOG). By the way, I met a couple of witches while there and I can tell you they are as evil as they come.

wasp69
06-12-2012, 02:56 PM
There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.

Fantastic, where did you learn it? What is the basis for your morality?

wasp69
06-12-2012, 02:59 PM
Yeah my little sister went to Panama last year with her church. You know, because all those Catholic Panamanians need to hear about Jesus.

Surely you are aware that Christian Missions do more than just stand around and preach to the masses, right?

Starbuck
06-12-2012, 03:38 PM
.........Jefferson was a Christian. That is all you need to "get.".......

Well, if you say so. But not everyone agrees with you. Jesus-is-savior.com doesn't:

I was greatly saddened to learn that Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) was NOT a Christian. Jefferson made so many wonderful patriotic quotes concerning freedom and the dangers of the central bank. I was amazed as I watched a PBS documentary on the life of Thomas Jefferson............
I realize that there are historical writings which reveal that Thomas Jefferson claimed to be a Christian, including an actual photo of Jefferson's handwritten statement “I am a real Christian.” Albeit, just as most professed Christians today are not true born-again believers, the following quotes from Mr. Jefferson make it quite clear that he was NO Christian:

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” —Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/thomas_jefferson.htm
I think some people would consider Jefferson a Christian today and others would not. Does it really matter? Not to me. The founders were right on some things; wrong on others. Just like men today.

To the above quoted "bleever" Jefferson strays off the path of Christianity; others make a different argument. But both arguments are out there.

Generation Why?
06-12-2012, 04:10 PM
Surely you are aware that Christian Missions do more than just stand around and preach to the masses, right?

I know. Just having some fun in a post is all.

Generation Why?
06-12-2012, 04:19 PM
I'd argue that the knowledge of good and evil comes from God and is not dependent on the written word. God can write that knowledge into our very DNA.
True, which is the point of an article like this. Our atheists are trying to convince us they "don't get it." this seems disengenuous to me.

Not well. Liberals will now pile on with all manner of quibbling little, pathetically inadequate defenses of their various sins.

But not without God. If there is no God, there is no reason to constrain yourself, no matter how many bones you have stitched into your nose.

Not true. You can appreciate all manner of things and still destroy them. You may snuff out the life of somebody and justify it as essential. The very fact you felt it necessary to justify it speaks of an internal right and wrong. Where does that come from?



AmPat, I don't want to get into a religious quarrel(sp?) over this. We are going to disagree. And that is fine by me. I don't think religious people are ignorant or anything to that extent. I respect individual faith, seeing as it helps most people. I am just not a person who believes in God. I pay my taxes, obey the laws, and don't treat anyone like trash. I would say I am doing just fine. Lastly the "If there is no God, there is no reason to constrain yourself" statement seems more an opinion in my eyes. Have a good day.

wasp69
06-12-2012, 04:20 PM
Well, if you say so. But not everyone agrees with you. Jesus-is-savior.com doesn't:



“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” —Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


To the above quoted "bleever" Jefferson strays off the path of Christianity; others make a different argument. But both arguments are out there.

Then the "bleever" was making the same mistake as those who would paint Thomas Jefferson a diest.



"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."


Context is everything, especially when the subject of the quoted passage was Jefferson railing against those that perverted the words and deeds of Jesus.

:friendly_wink:

Retread
06-12-2012, 08:22 PM
Did I light a fire?

Jefferson's own words declare him a Christian. Any other views ignore that fact.

Starbuck
06-12-2012, 08:42 PM
...........Any other views ignore that fact.................

There ya go then. If you disagree with retread, you are just...........wrong.:smile-new:

Retread
06-12-2012, 10:31 PM
There ya go then. If you disagree with retread, you are just...........wrong.:smile-new:

Not me - Jefferson himself (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?49923-History-Lesson-OUR-REAL-ROOTS&p=508506&viewfull=1#post508506)

Starbuck
06-12-2012, 11:19 PM
Well, here's the thing. Jefferson calls himself a Christian.
But if he didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God; did not believe in miracles; did not believe in The Resurrection; thought the writers of the New Testament were befuddled; would you call him a Christian?

A rhetorical question surely, since your opinion and preference is simply that - your opinion and preference. I have heard Christians speak that I know would welcome TJ into their ranks and call him "Brother". But I have heard others speak who would ostracize him, excoriate him, and call him a "non-bleever". I referenced one of those groups.

Was he? I guess if Jefferson says he is a Christian, then so be it; he is. My participation in this thread was fairly clumsy, but my point is that there are some who call themselves Christian who say Jefferson was not Christian; there are others who call themselves Christian who say Jefferson was indeed Christian.

I will not be offended if one of you Christians points out that since I am a non-Christian I am not qualified to judge.:friendly_wink:

wasp69
06-13-2012, 10:05 AM
I will not be offended if one of you Christians points out that since I am a non-Christian I am not qualified to judge.:friendly_wink:


I would not say that, far from it. Since context is everything, especially being able to read the thoughts and words of the man himself, I would just say that you haven't gotten the full picture.

No big deal, just kicking around things on a message board. :friendly_wink:

Gina
06-13-2012, 08:33 PM
And in conclusion:

I'm a Christian, if I'm wrong I lose nothing, if you're not a Christian and you're wrong, you lose everything.

Starbuck
06-13-2012, 09:49 PM
And in conclusion:

I'm a Christian, if I'm wrong I lose nothing, if you're not a Christian and you're wrong, you lose everything.

According to Christian teachings.:smile-new:
But that's only 34% of the world.

Generation Why?
06-14-2012, 11:51 AM
And in conclusion:

I'm a Christian, if I'm wrong I lose nothing, if you're not a Christian and you're wrong, you lose everything.

Fair enough. I am an Atheist. If I am right, I gain and lose nothing. If I am wrong, I am going out with a clean conscience knowing I lived a good life.

noonwitch
06-14-2012, 12:35 PM
Fair enough. I am an Atheist. If I am right, I gain and lose nothing. If I am wrong, I am going out with a clean conscience knowing I lived a good life.


That was my Grandpa's philosophy, and he lived to be 98. He never got senile, and hadn't gone to church except for weddings and funerals since he left his mother's home. My Grandma churched the kids.

AmPat
06-15-2012, 11:29 AM
AmPat, I don't want to get into a religious quarrel(sp?) over this. We are going to disagree. And that is fine by me. I don't think religious people are ignorant or anything to that extent. I respect individual faith, seeing as it helps most people. I am just not a person who believes in God. I pay my taxes, obey the laws, and don't treat anyone like trash. I would say I am doing just fine. Lastly the "If there is no God, there is no reason to constrain yourself" statement seems more an opinion in my eyes. Have a good day.

OK, consider this:
If there is no God, there would be no law, code, morals, restraint against killing somebody. Most people I know have had some insufferable prick do something really stupid and dangerous while driving. Cutting you off and selfish, aggressive driving. This leads to road rage which usually doesn't end in fatal confrontation.

Now what if there were no God? Why would there be any law against killing the prick? Why not off the selfish SOB and do the world and your anger a favor? What keeps you from doing that?

I'm not trying to convert you or argue. I merely want you to consider the possible and probable source of that restraiint.

Starbuck
06-15-2012, 12:02 PM
I find that very often the professed non-believer actually does have a vision of God. It's just that his vision of God is so greatly different from the tradition Christian vision, that is is expeditious to just say he doesn't believe.

In casual conversation, I say I just don't like going to church. When pressed I will say I am a non-Christian. At that point, most Christians call me an atheist. On rare occasions I use the term myself, but I actually do believe there is God. Just not the way you do.

Generation Why?
06-15-2012, 01:12 PM
OK, consider this:
If there is no God, there would be no law, code, morals, restraint against killing somebody.

I like this. Good healthy conversation. But what you said is merely an opinion as far as I can tell based on my beliefs, or lack thereof. Anything I say will be an opinion in your eyes. Agree to disagree and let's both just not be assholes and call it even.