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Hubie
06-27-2012, 12:00 PM
Because of loathsome circumstances involving his loathsome ex-wife and her loathsome children (not by him), he has been seeing a psychologist. Well, in talking with this psychologist, he's apparently come to the "realization" that he's gay. Never mind that he was married. Never mind that he has a girlfriend. His psychologist has apparently tracked down his issue with women to him being gay.

I swear. Lawyers and psychologists are the two worst professions on the planet. They're all scum.

linda22003
06-27-2012, 12:40 PM
And the incentive for a psychologist to "brainwash" him would be what, exactly?

noonwitch
06-27-2012, 12:55 PM
Unless the psychologist is some kind of psycho gay with a crush on your BIL, I'd guess that your BIL talked in his sessions about having an attraction to men.


Then again, my mom had counseling once and came out of it making all sorts of accusations against various relatives, some of which I believe and the largest of which I totally disregard. But my mom is a borderline, and they are extremely impressionable.

Starbuck
06-27-2012, 01:51 PM
...............But my mom is a borderline, and they are extremely impressionable.

Ah. The Borderline. The most difficult to understand and among (I think) the most unfortunate of those with Personality Disorders. My sympathies to you both.:apologetic:

Gina
06-27-2012, 02:48 PM
Because of loathsome circumstances involving his loathsome ex-wife and her loathsome children (not by him), he has been seeing a psychologist. Well, in talking with this psychologist, he's apparently come to the "realization" that he's gay. Never mind that he was married. Never mind that he has a girlfriend. His psychologist has apparently tracked down his issue with women to him being gay.

I swear. Lawyers and psychologists are the two worst professions on the planet. They're all scum.

It's not unheard of for a gay person to get married, to try to 'make it go away'. The other thing that comes to mind is that although this is hard to hear, the BIL isn't blameless in the breakup of the marriage, it takes two. BUT I think there is a possibility that the psychologist is lazy or stupid, and saying 'hey maybe you're gay' is the easy way out. Hard to say. I hope everything turns out ok for your family.

Hubie
06-27-2012, 04:30 PM
And the incentive for a psychologist to "brainwash" him would be what, exactly?

The guarantee of continued therapy, undoubtedly. Homosexuals can be pretty neurotic. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of psychologists are atheists or even blatantly anti-Christian... (My BIL is currently a professing Christian, but I would not be surprised at all if that changes because of this quack.)

Hubie
06-27-2012, 04:32 PM
Unless the psychologist is some kind of psycho gay with a crush on your BIL, I'd guess that your BIL talked in his sessions about having an attraction to men.

No and no. My BIL's ex-wife is psychotic (literally) and messed him up badly -- physically and mentally/emotionally. His problem with women isn't that he's gay. It's that he was abused by her.


Then again, my mom had counseling once and came out of it making all sorts of accusations against various relatives, some of which I believe and the largest of which I totally disregard. But my mom is a borderline, and they are extremely impressionable.

Well, that's part of it, too, I think. He's not very assertive (which goes along with what his ex-wife did to him) and doesn't stand up for himself.

Hubie
06-27-2012, 04:39 PM
It's not unheard of for a gay person to get married, to try to 'make it go away'.

But that's not the case here.


The other thing that comes to mind is that although this is hard to hear, the BIL isn't blameless in the breakup of the marriage, it takes two.

Well, he's not faultless in the sense that he didn't stand up for himself. His ex-wife is a literal psychopath. I'm NOT exaggerating. He and his family witnessed her insane behavior firsthand. She's one of those types who thinks god (while she claims it's the Judeo-Christian God, her god does not resemble anything from the Bible) talks to her and all.


BUT I think there is a possibility that the psychologist is lazy or stupid, and saying 'hey maybe you're gay' is the easy way out. Hard to say. I hope everything turns out ok for your family.

Thank you. :love_heart:

Unreconstructed Reb
06-27-2012, 04:46 PM
I swear. Lawyers and psychologists are the two worst professions on the planet. They're all scum.

Don't forget politicians.

Wei Wu Wei
06-28-2012, 02:05 PM
If he is dealing with homosexual feelings, having a family that acts the way you are acting, and a religious interpretation that tells him his feelings are evil will certainly cause some mental distress.

I've worked with full fledged psychologists for a long time, I've studied psychology myself, I even have an aunt who is a practicing psychologist. They aren't trying to "brainwash" anyone for personal gain.

That's extremely unethical and goes against all of the education and training a psychologist receives.

If you really believe a psychologist is acting unethically you should pursue this legally, but I don't think you really believe that. I think you are just unhappy with the conclusion that your BIL is coming to.

Now, it's true that psychologists will sometimes have different ideas or suggestions, some psychologists are better or worse suited to treat certain patients, and a second opinion is a good idea. However, it's extremely unlikely that a trained professional psychologist who's spent so many years going through rigorous training is simply an idiot or that they are trying to "brainwash" anyone.

Your BIL is probably dealing with homosexual feelings. Does that mean he's going to identify as a gay man for the rest of his life? Who knows? However, it would be helpful if his family and community were supporting of him during this rough time in his life.

Hubie
06-28-2012, 02:42 PM
Don't forget politicians.

Most of them start out as lawyers. :friendly_wink:

Hubie
06-28-2012, 03:17 PM
If he is dealing with homosexual feelings, having a family that acts the way you are acting, and a religious interpretation that tells him his feelings are evil will certainly cause some mental distress.

You must be the "wee wee" people have been talking about here. Looks like you're living up to what they're saying.

No, he doesn't have "homosexual feelings." He became involved with and married his now-ex-wife because of his heterosexual feelings for her. He got involved with his current (and apparently soon-to-be-former) girlfriend because of the same. What his feelings are towards what's evil are what his adviser has been telling him: that his past feelings and beliefs are what's wrong and evil. Honestly, you've gotten everything wrong and backwards right off the bat.


I've worked with full fledged psychologists for a long time, I've studied psychology myself, I even have an aunt who is a practicing psychologist.

Bullshit. Even if it were true, so what? Absolutely none of that means you're right and I'm wrong.


They aren't trying to "brainwash" anyone for personal gain.

Not that they'll admit, no, but that is what happens. Instead of actually helping people, they get them on a path that ensures continued mental health issues.


That's extremely unethical and goes against all of the education and training a psychologist receives.

Nothing but talk. When you can hide behind their degrees and the "this is who s/he really is" mantra, you can justify telling anyone anything. Tell me, how is it ethical to tell someone who has been living as a heterosexual for years that they might actually be gay?


If you really believe a psychologist is acting unethically you should pursue this legally,

No point. As I said, they can hide behind their degrees and mantras. I'm not going to waste my time, money and energy on a futile fight. My time and energy are better spent with my BIL himself (plus it's free).


but I don't think you really believe that. I think you are just unhappy with the conclusion that your BIL is coming to.

Did these psychologists teach you mind reading, too? But yes, I AM unhappy with the fact that he's being lied to in order to manipulate him into that conclusion instead of the psychologist helping him work through the mental/emotional damage his ex-wife caused him. If he gets into a homosexual relationship, he will only end up with the same problems and nothing will be solved.


Now, it's true that psychologists will sometimes have different ideas or suggestions, some psychologists are better or worse suited to treat certain patients, and a second opinion is a good idea. However, it's extremely unlikely that a trained professional psychologist who's spent so many years going through rigorous training is simply an idiot or that they are trying to "brainwash" anyone.

"Extremely unlikely" is still partly possible, correct? So how can you say without a doubt that that's not what is happening here?


Your BIL is probably dealing with homosexual feelings.

No, he's not and he's not admitted any such thing even to this psychologist.


Does that mean he's going to identify as a gay man for the rest of his life? Who knows?

I thought the meme was, "Once gay, always gay."


However, it would be helpful if his family and community were supporting of him during this rough time in his life.

Tell me, why does "supporting" always have to be only YOUR way and only for what YOU support? Why can't supporting him be helping him reject this nonsense?

Elspeth
06-28-2012, 04:47 PM
I've worked with full fledged psychologists for a long time, I've studied psychology myself, I even have an aunt who is a practicing psychologist. They aren't trying to "brainwash" anyone for personal gain.

That's extremely unethical and goes against all of the education and training a psychologist receives.


3W:

Technically, what you are saying is true. There are ethics that govern the profession and true PhD psychologists are trained that way. However, even PhD psychologists (along with their lesser trained MSW and MEd fellows) can fall prey to rigid ideologies and theories, especially when they lack real world experience. They can also fall prey to their own personal traumas and project them onto their clients. They are only human after all.

Think back to Freud, where this all began. Arguably, Freud's most famous patient was Anna O. She came into therapy after having been sexually abused as a child. This has been documented historically. Instead of believing Anna about her real trauma, Freud convinced her that she was fantasizing about having sex with a parent. This kind of thinking was in line with other Viennese professionals in this new medical area of the mind. Crucially, they were all male and this surely played some role. Their patients were also wealthy (the poor could not afford these treatments) and no one wanted to accuse a wealthy male (who could ruin their career) of raping a child.

Freud's theory of infant sexuality and the Oedipus complex drew a lot from his work with Anna O. This helped Freud immensely, but not Anna O., who ended up at a sanitarium in Switzerland, where she eventually did get some help. There is a wonderful book that documents all this called Freud and cocaine: the Freudian fallacy (http://books.google.com/books/about/Freud_and_cocaine.html?id=p6ICAAAAMAAJ). Freud was, in fact, a cocaine addict, and his addiction is chronicled in an upcoming book, An Anatomy of Addiction: Sigmund Freud, William Halsted, and the Miracle Drug, Cocaine (http://www.amazon.com/An-Anatomy-Addiction-Sigmund-William/dp/1400078792/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340914957&sr=8-1&keywords=freud+and+cocaine).

So essentially, the field of psychiatry (and its offshoots) was born in prejudices and its "founding father" was steeped in drug addiction.

Now, what does that say about the modern practice?

It says that people are fallible, despite their training or perhaps because of it. Theories of sexuality are especially vulnerable since there is no real medical understanding, yet, on how sexual orientation works in our species or any other. There are precious few studies of the human brain and body on this, and there is a lot of speculation.

In addition, many therapists fall prey to trends or to culturally based norms that they mistake for genetic predisposition. Take the famous "family systems theory", in which every problem can be traced to your place in a dysfunctional family and how you interacted with family members. How many people spent good money examining their family "dysfunction" ad nauseam when their real problem was chemical and a couple of months of an antidepressant might have done wonders. Or how about all of those women in the 1990s whose therapists, affected by that awful book "Courage to Heal", decided that every problem they had was due to repressed sexual abuse in their past? Some of those women brought family members to court.

And think about cultural norms of masculinity. In the US, males do not hold hands. In China, they do. I'll never forget the mother of a friend of mine who went to China and reported back that so many Chinese were gay. Or how about the cultural norms of femininity, now undergoing massive changes. Wearing pants and driving a Hummer can be hetero female activities. So can joining the Army. However, the physical closeness that has been the trademark of hetero females in the US is now, thanks to the gay rights movement, being interpreted sexually in some circles. Think a teenager might be confused? How about if she ends up in therapy and the therapist suggests to her that she might be bisexual? Cultural norms are often misinterpreted as biological imperatives, even by professionals.

All I am saying is that a little skepticism is in order. I do not know if the BIL in the OP is gay or not. I do know that that realization should come from the client and should not be the suggestion of any psychologist.

noonwitch
06-28-2012, 04:48 PM
Hubie, ignore Wee Wee, he doesn't really know all that much about psychology, or he wouldn't keep looking for trouble here.


It sounds to me like your BIL is really going through a rough phase in his life right now. It's difficult to know what his therapy is addressing, because you are only hearing his side, which is how he interprets what the psychologist is saying, not necessarily what the psychologist is actually saying to him.

But this much is true, because you verify it with your own observations:

He was in a previous relationship with a psycho-bitch who messed up his head.
He told you he thinks he's gay.

If he told the psychologist these two things and nothing more, the counselor has to follow up on it with him, and that can seem like the therapist is encouraging him to be gay, when the therapist is really trying to get your BIL to clarify his statements-does he think he's gay because he's going through a somewhat justified "I hate women" reaction, or is he genuinely attracted to men? If his answer is the second one, than he is probably gay or bi.

A good psychologist is able to get the client to talk about these things and come to his own conclusion about his orientation or whatever other issue he is addressing in therapy. A good therapist should not be convincing him that he is gay, or, if he has expressed some ambiguity, that he is straight. A good therapist should help his clients realize for themselves who and what they are.

The ray of hope in all this is that he's not seeing a psychiatrist, who can prescribe meds. That would not really help him all that much, unless he is really stressed out about it to the point of being unable to function.

Hubie
06-28-2012, 05:01 PM
He never expressed any homosexual thoughts or feelings before he was forced to see this psychologist.

m00
06-28-2012, 05:08 PM
I was wondering for the longest time "Isn't your BIL's ex-wife your sister?"

Gina
06-28-2012, 05:13 PM
I was wondering for the longest time "Isn't your BIL's ex-wife your sister?"

Not if she's your wife's sister. :friendly_wink:

Wei Wu Wei
06-28-2012, 06:39 PM
3W:

Technically, what you are saying is true. There are ethics that govern the profession and true PhD psychologists are trained that way. However, even PhD psychologists (along with their lesser trained MSW and MEd fellows) can fall prey to rigid ideologies and theories, especially when they lack real world experience. They can also fall prey to their own personal traumas and project them onto their clients. They are only human after all.

Think back to Freud, where this all began. Arguably, Freud's most famous patient was Anna O. She came into therapy after having been sexually abused as a child. This has been documented historically. Instead of believing Anna about her real trauma, Freud convinced her that she was fantasizing about having sex with a parent. This kind of thinking was in line with other Viennese professionals in this new medical area of the mind. Crucially, they were all male and this surely played some role. Their patients were also wealthy (the poor could not afford these treatments) and no one wanted to accuse a wealthy male (who could ruin their career) of raping a child.

Freud's theory of infant sexuality and the Oedipus complex drew a lot from his work with Anna O. This helped Freud immensely, but not Anna O., who ended up at a sanitarium in Switzerland, where she eventually did get some help. There is a wonderful book that documents all this called Freud and cocaine: the Freudian fallacy (http://books.google.com/books/about/Freud_and_cocaine.html?id=p6ICAAAAMAAJ). Freud was, in fact, a cocaine addict, and his addiction is chronicled in an upcoming book, An Anatomy of Addiction: Sigmund Freud, William Halsted, and the Miracle Drug, Cocaine (http://www.amazon.com/An-Anatomy-Addiction-Sigmund-William/dp/1400078792/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340914957&sr=8-1&keywords=freud+and+cocaine).

So essentially, the field of psychiatry (and its offshoots) was born in prejudices and its "founding father" was steeped in drug addiction.

Now, what does that say about the modern practice?

It says that people are fallible, despite their training or perhaps because of it. Theories of sexuality are especially vulnerable since there is no real medical understanding, yet, on how sexual orientation works in our species or any other. There are precious few studies of the human brain and body on this, and there is a lot of speculation.

In addition, many therapists fall prey to trends or to culturally based norms that they mistake for genetic predisposition. Take the famous "family systems theory", in which every problem can be traced to your place in a dysfunctional family and how you interacted with family members. How many people spent good money examining their family "dysfunction" ad nauseam when their real problem was chemical and a couple of months of an antidepressant might have done wonders. Or how about all of those women in the 1990s whose therapists, affected by that awful book "Courage to Heal", decided that every problem they had was due to repressed sexual abuse in their past? Some of those women brought family members to court.

And think about cultural norms of masculinity. In the US, males do not hold hands. In China, they do. I'll never forget the mother of a friend of mine who went to China and reported back that so many Chinese were gay. Or how about the cultural norms of femininity, now undergoing massive changes. Wearing pants and driving a Hummer can be hetero female activities. So can joining the Army. However, the physical closeness that has been the trademark of hetero females in the US is now, thanks to the gay rights movement, being interpreted sexually in some circles. Think a teenager might be confused? How about if she ends up in therapy and the therapist suggests to her that she might be bisexual? Cultural norms are often misinterpreted as biological imperatives, even by professionals.

All I am saying is that a little skepticism is in order. I do not know if the BIL in the OP is gay or not. I do know that that realization should come from the client and should not be the suggestion of any psychologist.

I don't disagree that professionals are often influenced by their own ideological standpoints (even if they are honestly trying not to be). I don't disagree that professional opinions and norms change over time either.

I agree that some degree of skepticism is entirely healthy. I just don't think you have psychologists running around trying to brainwash people into becoming gay, that's just absurd.

If the BIL in the op is expressing homosexual thoughts or feelings, then he should be taken seriously and treated with respect as he finds his way through this. A psychologist should be helping him find a healthy way through this, not forming his identity for him.

I'm more inclined to believe a trained doctor of psychology has a grasp on basic ethics of his practice than claims that this doctor is brainwashing people.

Wei Wu Wei
06-28-2012, 06:41 PM
Hubie, ignore Wee Wee, he doesn't really know all that much about psychology, or he wouldn't keep looking for trouble here.

I have a solid psychology education. I also have odd neuroses that bring me back here, which I am well aware of. I'm also not a practicing psychologist so my posting here as I do does not reflect that practice.




It sounds to me like your BIL is really going through a rough phase in his life right now. It's difficult to know what his therapy is addressing, because you are only hearing his side, which is how he interprets what the psychologist is saying, not necessarily what the psychologist is actually saying to him.

But this much is true, because you verify it with your own observations:

He was in a previous relationship with a psycho-bitch who messed up his head.
He told you he thinks he's gay.

If he told the psychologist these two things and nothing more, the counselor has to follow up on it with him, and that can seem like the therapist is encouraging him to be gay, when the therapist is really trying to get your BIL to clarify his statements-does he think he's gay because he's going through a somewhat justified "I hate women" reaction, or is he genuinely attracted to men? If his answer is the second one, than he is probably gay or bi.

A good psychologist is able to get the client to talk about these things and come to his own conclusion about his orientation or whatever other issue he is addressing in therapy. A good therapist should not be convincing him that he is gay, or, if he has expressed some ambiguity, that he is straight. A good therapist should help his clients realize for themselves who and what they are.

The ray of hope in all this is that he's not seeing a psychiatrist, who can prescribe meds. That would not really help him all that much, unless he is really stressed out about it to the point of being unable to function.

I think this post is very sensible.

Elspeth
06-28-2012, 07:28 PM
I'm more inclined to believe a trained doctor of psychology has a grasp on basic ethics of his practice than claims that this doctor is brainwashing people.

That's where you and I differ. Remember that "brainwashing" (in the OP) is just another way of saying "strongly convincing." (Certainly, the OP is not indicating that the BIl is being tortured into a new belief system or having his brain waves tampered with by external means (i.e., the original definition of brainwashing)) What the OP is really trying to say is that the psychologist is persuading the client that he is gay.

Now, would a psychologist really try to persuade someone that he was gay? Maybe not intentionally. Maybe the psychologist really believes the client to be gay, even though it might not be the case in reality. Maybe the therapist is looking at the same things the rest of the culture deems as being "gay," behaviors, mannerisms, clothing choices, etc. and is adding these casual observations to the client's discussion of sexual issues with his ex-wife. Maybe the psychologist really feels that he or she is liberating the BIL or really healing him. The worst abuses are often done by people who really think they are doing good.

So, unlike you, I do believe that a psychologist might try to suggest something to a vulnerable person or persuade that person of something the psychologist thinks is helpful.

And until there is a definitive genetic test to differentiate gay from straight, identification of sexual orientation can only come from the gay individual him- or herself. It cannot--and should not--come from the outside.

Rockntractor
06-28-2012, 07:32 PM
I have a solid psychology education.

http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lol/bandeau-lol.gif

Hubie
06-28-2012, 08:34 PM
I was wondering for the longest time "Isn't your BIL's ex-wife your sister?"

*shakes head*

My wife's brother's ex-wife.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xia5iC9X3Bg

noonwitch
06-29-2012, 08:53 AM
He never expressed any homosexual thoughts or feelings before he was forced to see this psychologist.


If he had homosexual thoughts before, do you really think he would have expressed them to you, knowing that you wouldn't really be very keen on the concept?

I'm not saying he is or he isn't gay, though, because I don't know him and I'm not his therapist.

Bailey
06-29-2012, 09:40 AM
Don't forget politicians.

Well lawyers do become politicians lol

Hubie
06-29-2012, 01:01 PM
If he had homosexual thoughts before, do you really think he would have expressed them to you, knowing that you wouldn't really be very keen on the concept?

No, this is what's coming out now. This is the first time he's ever thought about homosexuality.

MrsSmith
06-29-2012, 07:48 PM
No, this is what's coming out now. This is the first time he's ever thought about homosexuality.
I would talk to your BIL about the possibility that the psychologist is leading his thoughts because of the current popularity of the belief that repressed homosexuality is common. I had a high school friend that went to a psychologist that used hypnosis to "bring out her repressed memories." Some things she "remembered" might possibly have been true, but by the time he was done, she "remembered" 2 separate small towns full of Satanists that used her for various rituals when she was a toddler. In towns of less than 200 people, if 30 or 40 of them were meeting anywhere every month dressed in robes or nude, dancing around an alter and abusing toddlers, the entire town would certainly know of it. While that did make for some mildly interesting horror movies when I was a teen, the reality is that it just didn't happen. However, her "doctor" made a lot of money writing about his "interesting" patients...

Rockntractor
06-29-2012, 07:52 PM
I would talk to your BIL about the possibility that the psychologist is leading his thoughts because of the current popularity of the belief that repressed homosexuality is common. I had a high school friend that went to a psychologist that used hypnosis to "bring out her repressed memories." Some things she "remembered" might possibly have been true, but by the time he was done, she "remembered" 2 separate small towns full of Satanists that used her for various rituals when she was a toddler. In towns of less than 200 people, if 30 or 40 of them were meeting anywhere every month dressed in robes or nude, dancing around an alter and abusing toddlers, the entire town would certainly know of it. While that did make for some mildly interesting horror movies when I was a teen, the reality is that it just didn't happen. However, her "doctor" made a lot of money writing about his "interesting" patients...

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are the priests of secular humanist religion.

Hubie
06-29-2012, 08:00 PM
Psychologists and Psychiatrists are the priests of secular humanist religion.

Exactly. I've told my wife to pass it on to her brother the issue of the fact that the vast majority of these people are atheists and even blatantly anti-Christian. I told her to ask him who has his best interests in mind: people who love him who share his professed faith in Christ or someone who is hostile to his faith.

Wei Wu Wei
06-30-2012, 01:10 AM
Exactly. I've told my wife to pass it on to her brother the issue of the fact that the vast majority of these people are atheists and even blatantly anti-Christian. I told her to ask him who has his best interests in mind: people who love him who share his professed faith in Christ or someone who is hostile to his faith.

If your BIL is concerned that the psychologist holds certain views or prejudices about your BIL's faith, then your BIL should make that concern known to his psychologist. A professional psychologist is trained on these matters and will be able to address them. If your BIL talks to the psychologist about these concerns and is convinced that their ideological stances are negatively influencing the therapy, then he should look for another trained and professional psychologist. If it comes to that, he should explain all of these issues and concerns with the new psychologist at the onset.

You may think that you are helping him by trying to keep him anchored to certain beliefs and identities, but perhaps he needs to struggle through this, even if it means questioning things he never questioned before. You may be worried that this psychologist is trying to influence him too strongly, but perhaps with the best intentions you and the rest of his family are doing this as well.

Wei Wu Wei
06-30-2012, 01:15 AM
When people are going through tough issues and are seeking professional help, they need support from their friends and family. Your concern certainly shows that you care, but you don't want to send the wrong message to him.

It could be hurtful for him to think that his family cares more about his sexual orientation than about his emotional health and well being. There's no way for me to know if he thinks that of course, but I've known people who've gone through this process and that impression is especially influential.

Best wishes

Hubie
06-30-2012, 09:19 PM
When people are going through tough issues and are seeking professional help,

I won't go into details, but this "help" was not voluntary.


they need support from their friends and family. Your concern certainly shows that you care, but you don't want to send the wrong message to him.

"...the wrong message..." I don't even know what that means.


It could be hurtful for him to think that his family cares more about his sexual orientation than about his emotional health and well being. There's no way for me to know if he thinks that of course, but I've known people who've gone through this process and that impression is especially influential.

Caring about this issue IS caring about his emotional, mental and physical health and well-being. The homosexual lifestyle is not sunshine and rainbows and lollipops. It does severe damage to all three of those aspects.

noonwitch
07-02-2012, 09:03 AM
Caring about this issue IS caring about his emotional, mental and physical health and well-being. The homosexual lifestyle is not sunshine and rainbows and lollipops. It does severe damage to all three of those aspects.


And a good therapist discusses the ramifications of such a lifestyle change on the client's overall life and all who are affected-wife, kids, extended family, church, career, and so on.


Yes, there are some atheists, especially among the more freudian-minded, in the various fields that lead to careers as counselors. But most are just professionals who are helping people deal with the crap in their lives that gets out of hand. We don't get $500 bonuses from GLAAD for every straight person we can convert to gay.

Gina
07-02-2012, 10:26 AM
Hubie, aren't you glad you posted this? :biggrin-new: :smile-new:

Hubie
07-02-2012, 04:58 PM
And a good therapist

And therein lies part of the issue. Do you think very many of these hacks could qualify for the label "good therapist?"


discusses the ramifications of such a lifestyle change on the client's overall life and all who are affected-wife, kids, extended family, church, career, and so on.

I seriously doubt that's going to happen, just as I doubt the therapist will inform him of the health issues involved in the lifestyle.


Yes, there are some atheists, especially among the more freudian-minded, in the various fields that lead to careers as counselors. But most are just professionals who are helping people deal with the crap in their lives that gets out of hand.

I wonder how leading someone to the gay lifestyle falls within that description.


We don't get $500 bonuses from GLAAD for every straight person we can convert to gay.

Whatever.

Hubie
07-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Hubie, aren't you glad you posted this? :biggrin-new: :smile-new:

Actually, yes. It's really helped me see and understand things better to discuss the issue and be exposed to other viewpoints.

Hubie
07-02-2012, 05:02 PM
One of my sisters is gay and my wife was told by her other brother, "I thought you'd understand since his sister is gay." I honestly have no idea what that means. Seriously! I'm completely clueless about the "I thought you'd understand" bit. I don't know if that's supposed to actually mean "I thought you'd be accepting" or what. And whatever it means, why doesn't the understanding work the other way around? Why aren't people expected to understand our position as Christians?

Gina
07-02-2012, 05:41 PM
One of my sisters is gay and my wife was told by her other brother, "I thought you'd understand since his sister is gay." I honestly have no idea what that means. Seriously! I'm completely clueless about the "I thought you'd understand" bit. I don't know if that's supposed to actually mean "I thought you'd be accepting" or what. And whatever it means, why doesn't the understanding work the other way around? Why aren't people expected to understand our position as Christians?

Yah I would say "I thought you'd understand" means "I thought you'd be ok with it". Even if they're of the mind that Christians are supposed to love everyone = accept whatever they do. It shows THEY don't "understand" what your values and morals are. Love the sinner/hate the sin.

I think most people who call all Christians intolerant are the intolerant ones.

Hubie
07-02-2012, 08:20 PM
I just karmalized you for that, Gina. Thank you. :single_eye:

Gina
07-02-2012, 10:18 PM
I just karmalized you for that, Gina. Thank you. :single_eye:

:woot: ty!

Zeus
07-03-2012, 12:45 AM
I just karmalized you for that, Gina. Thank you. :single_eye:

Easy there buckoo , this is a family friendly board :sarcasm:






"Lord please forgive me and may God bless the Pygmies in New Guinea" :evil-grin:

Lanie
07-03-2012, 07:03 AM
No and no. My BIL's ex-wife is psychotic (literally) and messed him up badly -- physically and mentally/emotionally. His problem with women isn't that he's gay. It's that he was abused by her.



Well, that's part of it, too, I think. He's not very assertive (which goes along with what his ex-wife did to him) and doesn't stand up for himself.


Maybe that stuff is it. But then again, maybe an abusive wife made him want men? Obviously, that reaction wouldn't be permanent.

I do agree that some psychiatrists and psychologists can be overzealous about the whole gay thing. My sister has a friend who was picked on by everybody including his parents for doing stuff like playing with dolls as a child. People thought because he played with dolls meant he was gay. Well, he grew up, got married. In his 50s, his wife died. He started exploring himself more often. He went to a psychiatrist hoping to get some guidance about his feelings that he was too much like a woman. Well, the psychiatrist prescribed estrogen so he could take it all the way. The guy now has boobs. He/she says he's not gay, but I think that's because he's going for the women and thinks of himself as one. I don't think the psychiatrist necessarily had to take that route. Maybe try some testosterone first to see if that helped. Maybe talk to him about the jerks who called him gay growing up over dumb stuff.

However, he's now that way and people treat him like he's a freak. His physical doctor stopped treating his medical problems and he had to find another doctor. Consequently, I won't go to that doctor again. His son is having a hard time accepting things. If he gets fired from his job at his age (a real possibility at this point. Not because of his sexuality, but other reasons), he won't be able to find another one very easily if at all. So, his psychiatrist jumping the gay/transsexual bandwagon doesn't make his life any less screwed up. He doesn't need his family any less.

Your BIL needs you. I'm not saying to accept him being gay, but don't cut him out of your life. Let him know you still love him as family.

Hubie
07-03-2012, 03:39 PM
maybe an abusive wife made him want men?

I doubt it. It just screwed him up with women.


Your BIL needs you. I'm not saying to accept him being gay, but don't cut him out of your life. Let him know you still love him as family.

Of course! It's the only Christian thing to do. Of course, extenuating circumstances in his life right now make it impossible for him to be around my whole family right now.

Elspeth
07-03-2012, 04:23 PM
Maybe that stuff is it. But then again, maybe an abusive wife made him want men? Obviously, that reaction wouldn't be permanent.

I do agree that some psychiatrists and psychologists can be overzealous about the whole gay thing. My sister has a friend who was picked on by everybody including his parents for doing stuff like playing with dolls as a child. People thought because he played with dolls meant he was gay. Well, he grew up, got married. In his 50s, his wife died. He started exploring himself more often. He went to a psychiatrist hoping to get some guidance about his feelings that he was too much like a woman. Well, the psychiatrist prescribed estrogen so he could take it all the way. The guy now has boobs. He/she says he's not gay, but I think that's because he's going for the women and thinks of himself as one. I don't think the psychiatrist necessarily had to take that route. Maybe try some testosterone first to see if that helped. Maybe talk to him about the jerks who called him gay growing up over dumb stuff.

However, he's now that way and people treat him like he's a freak. His physical doctor stopped treating his medical problems and he had to find another doctor. Consequently, I won't go to that doctor again. His son is having a hard time accepting things. If he gets fired from his job at his age (a real possibility at this point. Not because of his sexuality, but other reasons), he won't be able to find another one very easily if at all. So, his psychiatrist jumping the gay/transsexual bandwagon doesn't make his life any less screwed up. He doesn't need his family any less.



So many questions about your post.

1. Sex reassignment usually requires a hell of a lot of intense therapy first. How long was he in therapy before the hormone treatments?

2. Gender roles and sex-identification are not the same thing. Gender roles are social things and sex-identification is biological. And gender roles can change a lot, since they're social. In the 50's. men, in general, did not take care of babies or change diapers. It was considered a female gender role. Well, that has changed, and more fathers change kids' diapers, feed them meals, give them baths, etc. Does that mean the father is more biologically female and needs estrogen? Or does it mean that the gender role has changed? Of course, it's the latter.

Sometimes, you have men that are more nurturing, even though they are heterosexual. There are boys who do pick up dolls in the same way there are girls who play with Hot Wheels. (Raise your hand, anyone, if you had the 1966 Batmobile Hot Wheel!) But this says NOTHING about their sexual identity (male or female) or sexual orientation (gay, straight, bi).

3. Some shrinks have an agenda. Period. Did you do any research on this therapist?

Gina
07-03-2012, 05:35 PM
He started exploring himself more often.

That just sounds wrong. :biggrin-new:

Lanie
07-03-2012, 10:08 PM
I doubt it. It just screwed him up with women.



Of course! It's the only Christian thing to do. Of course, extenuating circumstances in his life right now make it impossible for him to be around my whole family right now.

Why? Do you think he's capable of hurting your family?

Lanie
07-03-2012, 10:13 PM
So many questions about your post.

1. Sex reassignment usually requires a hell of a lot of intense therapy first. How long was he in therapy before the hormone treatments?

2. Gender roles and sex-identification are not the same thing. Gender roles are social things and sex-identification is biological. And gender roles can change a lot, since they're social. In the 50's. men, in general, did not take care of babies or change diapers. It was considered a female gender role. Well, that has changed, and more fathers change kids' diapers, feed them meals, give them baths, etc. Does that mean the father is more biologically female and needs estrogen? Or does it mean that the gender role has changed? Of course, it's the latter.

Sometimes, you have men that are more nurturing, even though they are heterosexual. There are boys who do pick up dolls in the same way there are girls who play with Hot Wheels. (Raise your hand, anyone, if you had the 1966 Batmobile Hot Wheel!) But this says NOTHING about their sexual identity (male or female) or sexual orientation (gay, straight, bi).

3. Some shrinks have an agenda. Period. Did you do any research on this therapist?

I really don't have any more details about this guy other than what I posted. I do know he's interested in going all the way with a sex change, but he's getting older. Not sure if it can be done. The main problem was that he felt like he was a she.

I do agree that just because somebody does something considered to be not of their gender doesn't make them gay or the opposite gender. I remember having a toy truck along with dolls. No big deal. I do think some psychiatrists can have an agenda. Not that this is the case with the BIL discussed here.

Hubie
07-05-2012, 11:17 AM
Why? Do you think he's capable of hurting your family?

No. The current situation is neither his nor our choice.

noonwitch
07-05-2012, 04:02 PM
So many questions about your post.

1. Sex reassignment usually requires a hell of a lot of intense therapy first. How long was he in therapy before the hormone treatments?

2. Gender roles and sex-identification are not the same thing. Gender roles are social things and sex-identification is biological. And gender roles can change a lot, since they're social. In the 50's. men, in general, did not take care of babies or change diapers. It was considered a female gender role. Well, that has changed, and more fathers change kids' diapers, feed them meals, give them baths, etc. Does that mean the father is more biologically female and needs estrogen? Or does it mean that the gender role has changed? Of course, it's the latter.

Sometimes, you have men that are more nurturing, even though they are heterosexual. There are boys who do pick up dolls in the same way there are girls who play with Hot Wheels. (Raise your hand, anyone, if you had the 1966 Batmobile Hot Wheel!) But this says NOTHING about their sexual identity (male or female) or sexual orientation (gay, straight, bi).

3. Some shrinks have an agenda. Period. Did you do any research on this therapist?



I'm not sure they require therapy to prescribe female hormones to men. Lots of transvestites take the hormones so they can have moobs, but never have their package removed. One has to go through all the assessments and therapy to have the operation, but I'm not sure about whether they have to do so just to get the hormone treatment, since it is allegedly not permanent.