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View Full Version : James Holmes is not guilty until found such



SarasotaRepub
07-21-2012, 12:22 PM
Das Nadin is really on a tear this weekend!!! (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002990633)




Sat Jul 21, 2012, 10:27 AM
nadinbrzezinski



James Holmes is not guilty until found such

That said, I got a sneaky that the competency hearing will be all kinds of fun. If he finds a good lawyer, he might even find himself in the same place Loughner has...who has yet to see more than a competency hearing.

And if he is that nuts and incapable of standing trial, well then, do the same as they've done with Loughner...he's still behind bars, but receiving the care he needs.

I will add this, there is one more victim here, James Holmes himself and his family. Yesterday I avoided a trip to Rancho Peñasquitos, because I know that.

Oh and it goes without saying, pointing out this, is rarely popular in our very vindictive society.






It's hard to tell if she's babbling, stupid, or both.

Elspeth
07-21-2012, 12:30 PM
Nadin is from San Diego, and the San Diego papers make it clear how unlikely an assassin James Holmes was.

Of course, maybe she's watching Alex Jones:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NDRdD1yDiR0#!

txradioguy
07-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Word must have gotten out that this kid is a registered Dem...so now come the calls for "innocent until proven guilty" and it was a conspiracy by Conservatives.

The left really will do anything to protect their own.

DumbAss Tanker
07-21-2012, 01:00 PM
Nads, nads, nads...there is no question at all that he did it, the only question legally is whether he is culpable for it, or has some affirmative defense based on mental condition.

This kid's extensive level of planning and organization to the explicit goal of a slaughter put him in a whole different box than Loughner, I might add.

Dan D. Doty
07-21-2012, 02:38 PM
James Holmes is until found such in a court of law.

And George Zimmerman is guilty because those on the Left said so.

:curse::curse::curse::curse::curse:

Nothing like getting a fair trial from DU.

NJCardFan
07-21-2012, 11:09 PM
James Holmes is until found such in a court of law.

And George Zimmerman is guilty because those on the Left said so.

:curse::curse::curse::curse::curse:

Nothing like getting a fair trial from DU.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHTLIi3erIg

Wibbins
07-22-2012, 12:24 PM
Word must have gotten out that this kid is a registered Dem...so now come the calls for "innocent until proven guilty" and it was a conspiracy by Conservatives.

The left really will do anything to protect their own.

Actually, that was corrected a few hours after it was posted. From what I've heard the guy was not even registered to vote.

txradioguy
07-22-2012, 12:34 PM
Actually, that was corrected a few hours after it was posted. From what I've heard the guy was not even registered to vote.

Thanks for the update...doesn't always get here as fast.

Chuck58
07-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Das Nadin is really on a tear this weekend!!! (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002990633)






It's hard to tell if she's babbling, stupid, or both.

Seems like she's forgotten something. "there is one more victim here, James Holmes himself and his family."

Aren't there 70 other victims including (so far) 12 dead and some others still 'iffy?' Holmes isn't the victim, he's the perpetrator, the one who created the victims.

Gina
07-22-2012, 02:02 PM
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560873_386243824763122_1452627550_n.jpg

Lanie
07-22-2012, 06:37 PM
We do live in a country that values being innocent until proven guilty. So when he's proven guilty (insanity plea hardly ever works), I hope he's sentenced to prison for the rest of his life. He shouldn't be allowed media attention. Media attention should go toward the victims. If he does have mental problems, then I hope he gets the help he needs, but I have to say I'm not buying that he didn't understand that he was doing. He still needs to be punished. And yes, I do feel badly for his family.

My babbling on this subject.

Lanie
07-22-2012, 06:38 PM
James Holmes is until found such in a court of law.

And George Zimmerman is guilty because those on the Left said so.

:curse::curse::curse::curse::curse:

Nothing like getting a fair trial from DU.

Fortunately, DU is not a court.

Rockntractor
07-22-2012, 06:44 PM
Fortunately, DU is not a court.

They have jury's.

Apache
07-22-2012, 06:47 PM
Fortunately, DU is not a court.

Thank God.... :biggrin-new:

noonwitch
07-23-2012, 08:35 AM
Of course from a legal perspective, he's innocent until proven guilty.


In this case, however, he chose to commit his crimes in a very public setting. There are literally hundreds of witnesses, overwhelming physical evidence, and likely a confession to the police (even if they aren't releasing it now, most of the spree killers who don't kill themselves usually confess, because they have "reasons" they want everyone to understand for their crimes). If he has some socio-politcal motive for killing a bunch of people, he will want to talk about it.

NJCardFan
07-23-2012, 10:03 AM
We do live in a country that values being innocent until proven guilty. So when he's proven guilty (insanity plea hardly ever works), I hope he's sentenced to prison for the rest of his life. He shouldn't be allowed media attention. Media attention should go toward the victims. If he does have mental problems, then I hope he gets the help he needs, but I have to say I'm not buying that he didn't understand that he was doing. He still needs to be punished. And yes, I do feel badly for his family.

My babbling on this subject.

You do know they're hypocrites, right? Everyone over there wanted to hang George Zimmerman by his bootstraps within hours of his shooting. The difference is, in Zimmerman's case, a black person was killed therefore it was an act of racism. In Colorado, a bunch of white people were killed so there has to be some other underlying reason.

txradioguy
07-23-2012, 03:52 PM
You do know they're hypocrites, right? Everyone over there wanted to hang George Zimmerman by his bootstraps within hours of his shooting. The difference is, in Zimmerman's case, a black person was killed therefore it was an act of racism. In Colorado, a bunch of white people were killed so there has to be some other underlying reason.

Zimmerman

The Pentagon Metro Shooter

The idiot that flew his plane into the IRS office in Austin

Jared Laughner

The Times Square car bomber


Every single instance the DUmp...Liberals and the MSM all rushed to falsely claim the person committing the act was done by a Conservative and/or TEA Party member.

Each time they've been wrong.

This Holmes kid won't be the last one they swing and miss on either. Their lust to brand Conservatives as domestic terrorists blinds them to reality and common sense.

michaelsean
07-23-2012, 05:00 PM
I like how they throw around terms like they are interchangable. Psychopaths are not sociopaths are not psychotics. Psychotics don't even belong in the conversation as it is extremely rare for a psychotic to be violent.

Adam Wood
07-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Zimmerman

The Pentagon Metro Shooter

The idiot that flew his plane into the IRS office in Austin

Jared Laughner

The Times Square car bomber


Every single instance the DUmp...Liberals and the MSM all rushed to falsely claim the person committing the act was done by a Conservative and/or TEA Party member.

Each time they've been wrong.

This Holmes kid won't be the last one they swing and miss on either. Their lust to brand Conservatives as domestic terrorists blinds them to reality and common sense.To toss a few more on the evidence pile:


Lee Harvey Oswald, called a right-wing kook literally within minutes of the Kennedy shooting, who was an avid "Marxist-Leninist."

James Earl Ray, lifelong Democrat, worked on campaigns for Democrats, called a right-wing extremist by the media to this very day.

The Democrat who shot up the Holocaust Museum in DC.

Lanie
07-23-2012, 11:03 PM
You do know they're hypocrites, right? Everyone over there wanted to hang George Zimmerman by his bootstraps within hours of his shooting. The difference is, in Zimmerman's case, a black person was killed therefore it was an act of racism. In Colorado, a bunch of white people were killed so there has to be some other underlying reason.

I would agree that Zimmerman is also innocent until proven guilty and I sometimes think the courts have made things harder on him at times. I do agree that people should be more open minded in regards to innocent until proven guilty with Zimmerman.

The thing about Holmes is that what he did was just so freakin insane. People have trouble believing that people do that just because they're evil. Personally, I think we should give him the help he needs whether that be counseling, beatings, etc.

Lanie
07-23-2012, 11:07 PM
I like how they throw around terms like they are interchangable. Psychopaths are not sociopaths are not psychotics. Psychotics don't even belong in the conversation as it is extremely rare for a psychotic to be violent.

The way it was explained in my Sociology class years ago is that psychopath and sociopath can be interchangeable depending on the reason you find behind why somebody is a certain way. If it's because they're hearing voices and actually listening to the bad ones, then they're a psychopath. If the problem is that they don't fit in with society and take it to a level of violence, then they're a sociopath. People reading my posts over the years have probably found me using the term sociopath more often than psychopath. I'm usually careful not to use the word psychopath because I really don't know anything about their actual brain.

NJCardFan
07-23-2012, 11:51 PM
The way it was explained in my Sociology class years ago is that psychopath and sociopath can be interchangeable depending on the reason you find behind why somebody is a certain way. If it's because they're hearing voices and actually listening to the bad ones, then they're a psychopath. If the problem is that they don't fit in with society and take it to a level of violence, then they're a sociopath. People reading my posts over the years have probably found me using the term sociopath more often than psychopath. I'm usually careful not to use the word psychopath because I really don't know anything about their actual brain.

Pardon the pun but let me put it in Batman terms. Two-Face is a sociopath. The Joker is a psychopath. The 2 are very different. The Joker kills, well, because he thinks it's funny. Two-Face kills because someone pissed him off...well, half of him off.

Lanie
07-24-2012, 07:46 AM
Pardon the pun but let me put it in Batman terms. Two-Face is a sociopath. The Joker is a psychopath. The 2 are very different. The Joker kills, well, because he thinks it's funny. Two-Face kills because someone pissed him off...well, half of him off.

But isn't a psychopath somebody who hears voices? If the joker kills because it's funny, then he's a sociopath. Harvey is closer to a psychopath with his multiple personality disorder. It's like...

Two-face: Harvey, let's murder Batman. He's a jerk.

Harvey: I don't wanna.

Two-face: Let's flip a coin.

Harvey: Okey dokie.

Batman: Crap! Sure am glad I switched his coin to a coin that always lands on its side.

Harvey isn't really a psychopath, but I think he's closer than the Joker. Maybe I'm wrong.

noonwitch
07-24-2012, 08:41 AM
This is what I was taught in social work and criminal justice classes.

A sociopath is someone who is diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association. An easy way to sum it up is that a sociopath lacks a conscience. Some sociopaths never really cause any trouble in life because they learn at an early age about rules and the punishments for breaking rules. But a sociopath who kills someone generally did it because that person or people got in his or her way of achieving whatever goal is in mind. Or one can be a sociopath and not be a malicious person, so that person breaks a lot of little rules, but never crosses the line into violence. Charles Manson is a sociopath-he manipulates others to do his crimes for him by spinning an elaborate fantasy world in which they were the heroes by committing horrible crimes. Manson never believed all that Helter Skelter crap himself. A lot of serial killers are sociopaths-their real motive is to rape or molest their victims, but then they have to kill the victims to prevent having witnesses to their crimes.


A psychopath is first a sociopath, with no conscience. Additionally, that person has some type of psychotic or delusional disorder that motivates the crime. They are very rare, sociopaths are much more common. I'm not sure what specifically was Jeffrey Dahmer's reasons for his crimes, but he obviously was deluded into thinking cannibalism was somehow a good thing for him to do. That makes him a psychopath.

I don't know the Batman characters outside of the movies, so I'll use a soap opera reference. Helena Cassadine and Sonny Corinthos on General Hospital are sociopaths. Ceasar Faison and Heather Webber are psychopaths.

Adam Wood
07-24-2012, 09:27 AM
The way it was explained in my Sociology class years ago is that psychopath and sociopath can be interchangeable depending on the reason you find behind why somebody is a certain way. If it's because they're hearing voices and actually listening to the bad ones, then they're a psychopath. If the problem is that they don't fit in with society and take it to a level of violence, then they're a sociopath. People reading my posts over the years have probably found me using the term sociopath more often than psychopath. I'm usually careful not to use the word psychopath because I really don't know anything about their actual brain.And this is yet another reason why sociology is such a bullshit pseudo-science. Yes, I was "taught" this same idiocy in my sociology class, much to the chagrin of pretty much the entire psychology department. As usual, so-called sociologists don't know their asses from holes in the ground. The entire "science" of "sociology" should be more accurately labeled "make shit up to sound like you know what your're talking about," because that's exactly what it is.


Lanie, do yourself a favor and forget everything that you ever "learned" in any class that had anything to do with "sociology." You'd have more accurate information if you took a course in phrenology.

noonwitch
07-24-2012, 10:38 AM
And this is yet another reason why sociology is such a bullshit pseudo-science. Yes, I was "taught" this same idiocy in my sociology class, much to the chagrin of pretty much the entire psychology department. As usual, so-called sociologists don't know their asses from holes in the ground. The entire "science" of "sociology" should be more accurately labeled "make shit up to sound like you know what your're talking about," because that's exactly what it is.


Lanie, do yourself a favor and forget everything that you ever "learned" in any class that had anything to do with "sociology." You'd have more accurate information if you took a course in phrenology.


Sociology is a legitimate field, but diagnosis of psychological disorders falls mainly in the field of psychology. Sociology is more about how groups of people function and there is some crossover, but not to the degree of making a diagnosis of an individual.
I didn't major in sociology, I majored in social work, which is the application of both sociology and psychology to people's situations. Basically, it's about helping people function better within society, where psychology and psychiatry are about treating underlying mental health conditions. The two work together, that's why most community mental health programs have psychiatrists to diagnose and to prescribe treatment, and social workers to help the clients with day to day living.

Eupher
07-24-2012, 11:18 AM
Given the amount of protection Holmes afforded himself (body armor up and down, not just the torso) and the amount of preparation he afforded himself (purchased at least two weapons and 6,000 rounds of ammo), along with the booby-trapped apartment business using accelerants and other nasty stuff, I think his defense attorney is going to be hard-pressed to show that his client doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.

Those of you who know more about sociology and psychology than I do, and perhaps any attorneys (DAT) can weigh in on the idea of what constitutes insanity.

I had thought that the fundamental precept was an inability for the supposed insane perp to distinguish right versus wrong.

Adam Wood
07-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Sociology is a legitimate field, but diagnosis of psychological disorders falls mainly in the field of psychology. Sociology is more about how groups of people function and there is some crossover, but not to the degree of making a diagnosis of an individual.
I didn't major in sociology, I majored in social work, which is the application of both sociology and psychology to people's situations. Basically, it's about helping people function better within society, where psychology and psychiatry are about treating underlying mental health conditions. The two work together, that's why most community mental health programs have psychiatrists to diagnose and to prescribe treatment, and social workers to help the clients with day to day living.I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with the bolded. Sociology is a self-fulfilling prophecy "science" in which a bunch of pointy-headed academics who have not left campus in the last 25 years sit around and "legitimize" one another to each other and therefore ensure the continuation of grant money to continue their "studies." Any field that rejects common sense as not existing because it rejects the notion that people can look around themselves and observe their environment is automatically full of shit, without question.

Social work, while not something that I would personally endeavor to, is certainly a noble field, actually engaging in very real, tangible efforts to help those who are less fortunate and/or have fallen on hard times. While you may personally engage in "sociology" during your work as a social worker, I guarantee you that it's not a necessary function of social work. We already know the causes of poverty, and how to cure them. We just, as a society, don't really want to apply those cures because they're "cruel."

michaelsean
07-24-2012, 11:28 AM
Given the amount of protection Holmes afforded himself (body armor up and down, not just the torso) and the amount of preparation he afforded himself (purchased at least two weapons and 6,000 rounds of ammo), along with the booby-trapped apartment business using accelerants and other nasty stuff, I think his defense attorney is going to be hard-pressed to show that his client doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.

Those of you who know more about sociology and psychology than I do, and perhaps any attorneys (DAT) can weigh in on the idea of what constitutes insanity.

I had thought that the fundamental precept was an inability for the supposed insane perp to distinguish right versus wrong.

I was thinking the fact that he made no attempt to get away or to cover up his crime would help him in his insanity defense. Protecting yourself doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are doing is wrong, it just means you think it could be dangerous.

That being said, it is a very rare person that can't distinguish between right and wrong. They may not have a conscience, but they still know the rules.

michaelsean
07-24-2012, 11:31 AM
The way it was explained in my Sociology class years ago is that psychopath and sociopath can be interchangeable depending on the reason you find behind why somebody is a certain way. If it's because they're hearing voices and actually listening to the bad ones, then they're a psychopath. If the problem is that they don't fit in with society and take it to a level of violence, then they're a sociopath. People reading my posts over the years have probably found me using the term sociopath more often than psychopath. I'm usually careful not to use the word psychopath because I really don't know anything about their actual brain.

A sociopath doesn't have to commit violent acts to be labeled a sociopath. Also they may be anti-social in their heads, but they are very adept at fitting in. Psychopaths can give you clues, but sociopaths can go their whole lives without anyone realizing it.

NJCardFan
07-24-2012, 11:43 AM
Given the amount of protection Holmes afforded himself (body armor up and down, not just the torso) and the amount of preparation he afforded himself (purchased at least two weapons and 6,000 rounds of ammo), along with the booby-trapped apartment business using accelerants and other nasty stuff, I think his defense attorney is going to be hard-pressed to show that his client doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.

Those of you who know more about sociology and psychology than I do, and perhaps any attorneys (DAT) can weigh in on the idea of what constitutes insanity.

I had thought that the fundamental precept was an inability for the supposed insane perp to distinguish right versus wrong.

The right and wrong thing, IIRC, pertains to competency. And yeah, they're going to have a tough time trying to convince a judge that Holmes isn't competent to stand trial based on known evidence. As for insanity, I think that's going to be a tough road too. The more I think about it, the more this incident is going to turn out to be politically motivated.

Eupher
07-24-2012, 11:50 AM
The right and wrong thing, IIRC, pertains to competency. And yeah, they're going to have a tough time trying to convince a judge that Holmes isn't competent to stand trial based on known evidence. As for insanity, I think that's going to be a tough road too. The more I think about it, the more this incident is going to turn out to be politically motivated.

Thanks. :thumbsup:

Adam Wood
07-24-2012, 01:51 PM
I was thinking the fact that he made no attempt to get away or to cover up his crime would help him in his insanity defense. Protecting yourself doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are doing is wrong, it just means you think it could be dangerous.

That being said, it is a very rare person that can't distinguish between right and wrong. They may not have a conscience, but they still know the rules.In the eyes of the law, it does, because that's proof of premeditation, and premeditation is de facto proof of both mal intent and a mind capable of differentiating between right and wrong.

Generation Why?
07-24-2012, 01:59 PM
Well, technically.... that is true. Technically.

Eupher
07-24-2012, 03:11 PM
I was thinking the fact that he made no attempt to get away or to cover up his crime would help him in his insanity defense. Protecting yourself doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are doing is wrong, it just means you think it could be dangerous.

That being said, it is a very rare person that can't distinguish between right and wrong. They may not have a conscience, but they still know the rules.

I believe he left the theatre and the cops arrested him in a nearby parking lot. He didn't resist.

And I think it's reasonable to assume that he knew he was going to be arrested. Ergo the booby-traps in his apartment.

Anyway, the legal beagles will sort it out. He could very well be certifiably insane, but I had hoped and prayed that somebody would have taken this punk out and saved the taxpayers of Colorado another expensive, senseless, useless trial.

txradioguy
07-24-2012, 03:26 PM
I believe he left the theatre and the cops arrested him in a nearby parking lot. He didn't resist.




He was arrested without any struggle that I've heard of...next to his car in back of the theater in the parking lot. He never even left the grounds of the theater.

michaelsean
07-24-2012, 03:56 PM
In the eyes of the law, it does, because that's proof of premeditation, and premeditation is de facto proof of both mal intent and a mind capable of differentiating between right and wrong.

I've never heard that. What would premeditation have to do with knowledge of right and wrong? Attempting to cover up the crime or evade arrest.

Someone pointed out the wiring of the apartment, and that's a good point. If you know the police are going to be there then you know you are doing something that will involve the police. I wonder why he told them though. I guess he could say he could tell them because it was never meant for them because he didn't anticipate they would have any reason to enter his apartment.

It's all a crock of shit, I'm just guessing at what they will try.

Gina
07-24-2012, 04:31 PM
He left his music blaring and the door ajar from what I've read. If that's true, he meant for his neighbors to get blown up I'd say.

Maybe he wanted to be assumed blown up in his apartment and thought he'd walk away from the shooting?

Adam Wood
07-24-2012, 05:13 PM
I've never heard that. What would premeditation have to do with knowledge of right and wrong? Attempting to cover up the crime or evade arrest.

Someone pointed out the wiring of the apartment, and that's a good point. If you know the police are going to be there then you know you are doing something that will involve the police. I wonder why he told them though. I guess he could say he could tell them because it was never meant for them because he didn't anticipate they would have any reason to enter his apartment.

It's all a crock of shit, I'm just guessing at what they will try.Well, I'm reaching back twenty years into my memory from some basic law classes from college; I'm not an attorney or anything like a similar facsimile, but these were some fairly interesting classes and as I recall, the idea went basically like this:

If you are insane, the law says, you are by definition unable to control your actions. IOW, if you have, say, Parkinson's disease, you cannot be legally responsible for damage done in a china shop because your arm flies out and knocks over that Ming vase. Now, Parkinson's isn't insanity, but the same idea applies: one isn't capable of controlling oneself. As such, the act of an insane person is, therefore, an insane act. Logic dictates that the opposite is true: if one can control one's actions, then, one isn't insane. And if you are able to plan something, then it is obviously an action that you can control, and that is evidence of control of one's actions. And therefore, if you can control your actions, then you are, by definition, not insane.

I know, it sounds rather circular, sort of a catch-22, and maybe I have it all wrong. That's just what I remember from that class, taught by someone who had been both a criminal prosecutor and a criminal defense attorney, and I'm pretty sure I was sober at the time.

Two pennies and all of that.