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View Full Version : Remember when the Israelites went against God's Law?



Hubie
07-25-2012, 12:25 AM
God handed them over to their enemies. I can't help but think of that example when I read this:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/first-military-base-same-sex-wedding-held/?fb_ref=abc-fb-recs


Two men became the first same-sex couple to marry on a military base when they held their wedding ceremony last month at Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst in New Jersey.

Tech Sgt. Erwynn Umali and his partner, Will Behrens, married June 23 on the base where Umali, an active member of the Air Force, had been stationed. It was a decision that would have been unthinkable just nine months ago, before the law requiring them to keep their relationship a secret was repealed.

Rockntractor
07-25-2012, 12:29 AM
Linda Numbers might remember that far back.http://gfxlovers.com/smilies/imgs/confused/confused007.gif (http://gfxlovers.com/smilies)

Bondai
07-25-2012, 12:54 AM
Not the same Air Force I was a part of for 20 years that's for sure.:blue:

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 12:19 PM
And yet here we are. Unscathed.

FlaGator
07-25-2012, 12:39 PM
And yet here we are. Unscathed.

Are we really unscathed?

m00
07-25-2012, 12:40 PM
Sexual harassment policy just got a lot more interesting.

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 12:51 PM
Are we really unscathed?

Well that Tech Sergeant getting married didn't affect me any. Did it change something in your life?

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 12:52 PM
Sexual harassment policy just got a lot more interesting.

I was reading Article 120 after DADT was repealed. It seems to be pretty clear cut and unisex. We haven't had any issues in my battalion.

FlaGator
07-25-2012, 01:00 PM
Well that Tech Sergeant getting married didn't affect me any. Did it change something in your life?

I wasn't talking about me personally. I was talking about America as a society and the original reference to God forsaken Israel when they turned away from Him.

m00
07-25-2012, 01:04 PM
I was reading Article 120 after DADT was repealed. It seems to be pretty clear cut and unisex. We haven't had any issues in my battalion.

Well, I was thinking about the little things. In my office, I can't point to a female co-worker and say "nice tits" under any circumstances. I could probably get away with saying it to a male co-worker (assuming we were friends, etc). The underlying presumption of sexual harassment is that there has to actually be a sexual element, and that all interactions between men and women have the possibility for sexual subtext. We don't have any gay men at the office, but there are at least two transgender individuals. I'm socially friendly with one of them (was on my team), but lets just say I stepped very carefully around personal conversations where pronouns were involved. The lesbians at the office are a lot easier to talk to without feeling like you have watch what you say. Thing about the office is, you leave at 6pm and turn off your work brain. I can't imagine having to navigate social protocol 24/7 because I'm living/working with the same people, and then being placed under stressful conditions.

When it's all straight men it's not a problem. Saying a straight dude has a "fat ass" can bring a few chuckles. Saying a gay dude has a "fat ass"... is that sexual harassment or isn't it? Thing about the military is that (I presume) all of this has to be codified and written down, instead of the informal "don't be a dick/be respectful & tolerant" policy of where I work.

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 01:05 PM
I wasn't talking about me personally. I was talking about America as a society and the original reference to God forsaken Israel when they turned away from Him.

So gay marriage will be the down fall of American society and dominance? Because you have faith.

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 01:11 PM
Well, I was thinking about the little things. In my office, I can't point to a female co-worker and say "nice tits" under any circumstances. I could probably get away with saying it to a male co-worker (assuming we were friends, etc). The underlying presumption of sexual harassment is that there has to actually be a sexual element, and that all interactions between men and women have the possibility for sexual subtext. We don't have any gay men at the office, but there are at least two transgender individuals. I'm socially friendly with one of them (was on my team), but lets just say I stepped very carefully around personal conversations where pronouns were involved. The lesbians at the office are a lot easier to talk to without feeling like you have watch what you say. Thing about the office is, you leave at 6pm and turn off your work brain. I can't imagine having to navigate social protocol 24/7 because I'm living/working with the same people, and then being placed under stressful conditions.

When it's all straight men it's not a problem. Saying a straight dude has a "fat ass" can bring a few chuckles. Saying a gay dude has a "fat ass"... is that sexual harassment or isn't it? Thing about the military is that (I presume) all of this has to be codified and written down, instead of the informal "don't be a dick/be respectful & tolerant" policy of where I work.

I see what you're saying. How well you know someone matters too. I work with a gay guy and we know what is acceptable and what isn't. He hasn't grabbed my ass so I'm winning.

Benjamin Parish
07-25-2012, 01:33 PM
This is actually kind of funny to me. I mean, we have people who dont follow 'Gods' law when it comes to something like


'when brothers live together and one of them dies without having a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother must marry her and sleep with her. He must do his duty as her brother-in-law.' ~ 'Gods Word' Deuteronomy 25:5
or why is it that we don't allow people to sell their daughters into slavery, anymore? I mean.. its sanctioned by 'God':


'When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.' ~ Exodus 21:7

and lets not forget that we must, for the sake of 'Gods' law (so that 'God' does not turn 'his' back on us), not do any work on Sunday; for if we do, we have gone against 'Gods' law... and must be put to death:


'You may work for six days, but the seventh day is a holy day of worship, a day when you don't work. It is dedicated to the LORD. Whoever does any work on this day should be put to death.'

...but two people getting married on a military base would have 'God' turn us over to our 'enemies'.

...Or is it just because it is convenient.. since, you know... you aint gay.


(And there is soo much more where that came from, by the way).

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Eh, I like to keep it legal and less Biblical when I present an argument.

Janice
07-25-2012, 01:40 PM
Are we really unscathed?

Good luck proving spiritual principles on any scale to leftists or secularists.

FlaGator
07-25-2012, 01:41 PM
So gay marriage will be the down fall of American society and dominance? Because you have faith.

Same sex marriage in and of itself isn't the downfall, just one small item among a huge number of them.

You can call it my faith, you can also look at the decline of American society over the last 40 years or so. I don't need my faith to tell me that America is on progressive slide to junk pile that history keeps for failed societies.

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 01:44 PM
Good luck proving spiritual principles on any scale to leftists or secularists.

I was raised Southern Baptist, I understand spiritual principles. And I may be a secularists but I am still a person with principles.

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 01:47 PM
Same sex marriage in and of itself isn't the downfall, just one small item among a huge number of them.

You can call it my faith, you can also look at the decline of American society over the last 40 years or so. I don't need my faith to tell me that America is on progressive slide to junk pile that history keeps for failed societies.

I completely see what you are saying. And let me clarify that I am not attacking your faith. I respect everyone's right to practice whatever religion they wish to. I don't think the slide in American society is due to letting men marry men and women marry women. I think it is a combination of the far left and far right. The whole transgender stuff still confuses me. That I think is a bigger question mark than marriage. Also you have to look at the failed entitlement programs we have in this country, along with an overspread defense system. All of these are a factor.

Benjamin Parish
07-25-2012, 01:48 PM
Good luck proving spiritual principles on any scale to leftists or secularists.

Or those that are spiritual, and believe in GOD.. just not that 'The God of the Old Testament' is GOD.

After all.. what kind of a GOD would sanction ones father to sell their daughter into slavery at all (especially for the entirety of their lives... (but the boys can only be sold for 6 years?)

Thats your GOD? Thats who you worship?

Yea.. not for me.

[..and that is just one example of why 'The God of the Old Testament' is not GOD (according to my belief)].

Benjamin Parish
07-25-2012, 01:51 PM
I was raised Southern Baptist, I understand spiritual principles. And I may be a secularists but I am still a person with principles.

I hear you. I was raised a protestant, and most of my family still are (or are another sect of Christianity)...

I just started to question stuff one day and start to think for myself.

Thank GOD! :woot:

FlaGator
07-25-2012, 02:47 PM
Eh, I like to keep it legal and less Biblical when I present an argument.

First of all I wasn't basing an argument on something biblical. I base my view on what I see around me. I explain it by pointing out that America's moral decline is comparable to the moral decline of Israel and that I think God may be operating in the same manager in His dealings with America.

Putting the Bible aside, let's look at the history of nations and empires who have experienced a break down in their moral and ethical foundations. Great societies are never conquered. They fall a part from the inside and all another society has to do is pick up the pieces. Babylonia, The Greeks, The Romans, etc all jettisoned their foundational beliefs and ethics before their fall. With the exception of Babylonia, none fell quickly. They decayed over time until a good strong wind arose and blew them away.

I see this happening in America. The family structure is breaking down and it is the basis of our culture. We sacrifice our unborn children to the god of personal convenience. We have children raised in single parent homes. Our society is fragmenting. We are no long just Americans, we are hyphenated Americans. Personal liberty needs to be balanced by duty to society and when the balance is broken for one side or the other a culture cannot stand.

As I see it, same sex marriage plays in to this. Same sex marriage does no harm to me directly but I feel that it is just another notch made by the axe that is chopping America down. I could make a biblical argument againt same sex marriage, I can also make a evolutionary one but the real argument is how it tears at the traditional family. Now heterosexuals have done a good job of trashing the traditional family but it is a silly argument to make that since heterosexuals have already damaged the family structure then the door is now open to new types of family arrangements. Because John shot Paul in the chest then that makes it ok for me to finish Paul off? I think not.

From a personal perspective I could careless if Gays get married as long as the Church isn't forced to compromise it's values and participate. If churches are free to say no then let secular society do what it will. My responsibility as a member of society, however, dictates that I must do what I can to protect society in the best way I can. I can use my words to sway opinion and my vote to elect people who support my opinion. Beyond that I can do nothing else.

FlaGator
07-25-2012, 02:53 PM
Or those that are spiritual, and believe in GOD.. just not that 'The God of the Old Testament' is GOD.

After all.. what kind of a GOD would sanction ones father to sell their daughter into slavery at all (especially for the entirety of their lives... (but the boys can only be sold for 6 years?)

Thats your GOD? Thats who you worship?

Yea.. not for me.

[..and that is just one example of why 'The God of the Old Testament' is not GOD (according to my belief)].

Show me where the God of the Old Testament sanctioned a father to sell his daughter in to slavery. No one according to Hebrew laws was every sold in to slavery for ever. They could choose to remain in slavery after seven years and then it was permenant.

God has prohibitions against forced slavery. He never even sanctioned indentured servitude, He just acknowledged it as an amoral societal construct.

MountainMan
07-25-2012, 03:33 PM
Not the same Air Force I was a part of for 20 years that's for sure.:blue:

But did they exchange coffee cups? If they did, then at least some things never change. :evil-grin:

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 04:12 PM
First of all I wasn't basing an argument on something biblical. I base my view on what I see around me. I explain it by pointing out that America's moral decline is comparable to the moral decline of Israel and that I think God may be operating in the same manager in His dealings with America.

Putting the Bible aside, let's look at the history of nations and empires who have experienced a break down in their moral and ethical foundations. Great societies are never conquered. They fall a part from the inside and all another society has to do is pick up the pieces. Babylonia, The Greeks, The Romans, etc all jettisoned their foundational beliefs and ethics before their fall. With the exception of Babylonia, none fell quickly. They decayed over time until a good strong wind arose and blew them away.

I see this happening in America. The family structure is breaking down and it is the basis of our culture. We sacrifice our unborn children to the god of personal convenience. We have children raised in single parent homes. Our society is fragmenting. We are no long just Americans, we are hyphenated Americans. Personal liberty needs to be balanced by duty to society and when the balance is broken for one side or the other a culture cannot stand.

As I see it, same sex marriage plays in to this. Same sex marriage does no harm to me directly but I feel that it is just another notch made by the axe that is chopping America down. I could make a biblical argument againt same sex marriage, I can also make a evolutionary one but the real argument is how it tears at the traditional family. Now heterosexuals have done a good job of trashing the traditional family but it is a silly argument to make that since heterosexuals have already damaged the family structure then the door is now open to new types of family arrangements. Because John shot Paul in the chest then that makes it ok for me to finish Paul off? I think not.

From a personal perspective I could careless if Gays get married as long as the Church isn't forced to compromise it's values and participate. If churches are free to say no then let secular society do what it will. My responsibility as a member of society, however, dictates that I must do what I can to protect society in the best way I can. I can use my words to sway opinion and my vote to elect people who support my opinion. Beyond that I can do nothing else.

I was talking to Parish.

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 04:15 PM
From a personal perspective I could careless if Gays get married as long as the Church isn't forced to compromise it's values and participate. If churches are free to say no then let secular society do what it will. My responsibility as a member of society, however, dictates that I must do what I can to protect society in the best way I can. I can use my words to sway opinion and my vote to elect people who support my opinion. Beyond that I can do nothing else.

I believe so long as there is a Justice of the Peace then the Church does not have to get involved. And I completely agree that religious institutions should not be forced to compromise their values and participate.

FlaGator
07-25-2012, 04:27 PM
I was talking to Parish.

Sorry... my mistake

Generation Why?
07-25-2012, 05:13 PM
Sorry... my mistake

No worries

Benjamin Parish
07-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Show me where the God of the Old Testament sanctioned a father to sell his daughter in to slavery. No one according to Hebrew laws was every sold in to slavery for ever. They could choose to remain in slavery after seven years and then it was permenant.

God has prohibitions against forced slavery. He never even sanctioned indentured servitude, He just acknowledged it as an amoral societal construct.


Yea.


'When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.' ~ Exodus 21:7

FlaGator
07-26-2012, 09:20 AM
Yea.

You really should put that quote in context


Exo 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
Exo 21:8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.
Exo 21:9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter.
Exo 21:10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights.
Exo 21:11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

You are correct to a point, the Lord, however, is not sanctioning this, he is putting limits on the cultural behavior at that time.

They are discussing a form of indentured servitude that leads to an either an arranged marriage or the women becoming a concubine. This seems an abhorrent to us today but it was common 3000 years ago. Also if the woman refused to have sex (If she does not please her master) she was to be set free (redeemed). In this case she didn't have to wait the full seven years.

Women had a lot more to say about their captivity than you would realize. We can discuss that more if you would like.

In the Bible the Lord specifically forbids forced slavery.


Exo 21:16 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Novaheart
07-26-2012, 09:25 AM
Remember when the Israelites went against God's Law?

No, and neither do you or anyone else. Try to stay in the real and now.

Novaheart
07-26-2012, 09:36 AM
When it's all straight men it's not a problem. Saying a straight dude has a "fat ass" can bring a few chuckles. Saying a gay dude has a "fat ass"... is that sexual harassment or isn't it? Thing about the military is that (I presume) all of this has to be codified and written down, instead of the informal "don't be a dick/be respectful & tolerant" policy of where I work.

Gay men have been suffering fools with grace, especially in the armed forces, for a very long time. Not too many people have accused us of being thin skinned. Yes, there are nasty, bitchy, emotional queens in some workplaces but I can't imagine such people being common (or even present) in the military workplace/living space.

I expect that there will be some new lines to be drawn. The word "faggot" is equivalent to nword for blacks or kword for Jews or cword for women.... and yes some of us do use it affectionately towards each other. That's life. If there is no straight counterpart to that, then one starts to grasp the nature of majority privilege. It's very much like the nword: there is no corresponding word for whites because as a rule we don't give a shit what epithet a black person might use for us because we don't give a shit what black people as a group might think about white people as a group. That's a sign of privilege.