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Chuck58
08-18-2012, 12:13 AM
http://www.investigativeproject.org/3711/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks

Last week in Egypt, when Muslim Brotherhood supporters terrorized the secular media, several Arabic websites—including Arab News, Al Khabar News, Dostor Watany, and Egypt Now—reported that people were being "crucified." The relevant excerpt follows in translation:

A Sky News Arabic correspondent in Cairo confirmed that protestors belonging to the Muslim Brotherhood crucified those opposing Egyptian President Muhammad Morsi naked on trees in front of the presidential palace while abusing others. Likewise, Muslim Brotherhood supporters locked the doors of the media production facilities of 6-October [a major media region in Cairo], where they proceeded to attack several popular journalists.

That there were attacks and violence—both in front of Egypt's presidential palace and at major media facilities, is well-documented. An August 9 report by El Balad, a widely read Egyptian website, gives the details:

Last Wednesday, August 8, "thousands of the Muslim Brotherhood's supporters" attacked 6-October's media facilities, beat Khaled Salah—chief editor of the privately-owned and secular Youm 7 newspaper—prevented Yusif al-Hassani, an On TV broadcaster, from entering the building, and generally "terrorized the employees."

El Balad adds that the supporters of Tawfik Okasha, another vocal critic of President Morsi—the one who widely disseminated the graphic video of a Muslim apostate being slaughtered to cries of "Allahu Akbar"—gathered around the presidential palace, only to be surrounded by Brotherhood supporters, who "attacked them with sticks, knives, and Molotov cocktails, crucifying some of them on trees, leading to the deaths of two and the wounding of dozens."

Far from condemning these terrorists, Al Azhar, Egypt's most authoritative Islamic institution, has just issued a fatwa calling for more violence and oppression, saying that "fighting participants in anti-Muslim Brotherhood demonstrations planned for 24 August is a religious obligation."

Most of the aforementioned Arabic sites point out that these attacks are part of the Muslim Brotherhood's campaign to intimidate and thus censor Egypt's secular media from exposing the group's Islamist agenda, which Youm 7, On TV, and Okasha do daily. [Note: the latter's channel was recently shut down, despite Morsi's previous reassurances that "no station or media will be shut down in my era."]

These threats are not new; back in April, an organization called the "Jihad Group to Cleanse the Country" threatened these media with "painful and severe punishments." Apparently now that Morsi has become master of Egypt, threats are becoming reality, just as promises are being broken.

And the threats are taking their toll. Sky News, which was first to report about the crucifixions, has taken down its original article (though the URL still appears in the address box with the Arabic words "protesters-crucified-in front of-egypt's-presidential-palace").

While one may argue that Sky News removed the article because it was found false, one can equally argue that it censored itself for fear that it would be next in the terror campaign against the media.

In reality, there is little reason to doubt this crucifixion story. Militant Muslims crucifying their opponents is a regular feature of the Islamic world—recent cases coming from the Ivory Coast, where two Christian brothers were crucified, similarly by supporters of a Muslim president who ousted a Christian; Indonesia, where Islamic separatists crucified a fellow Muslim for being a military informant; and in Iraq, where Muslim militants crucified Christian children.

Moreover, those alleged to have been crucified in Egypt certainly fit the Koran's description of who deserves to be crucified. According to Allah, "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this: that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off…" (Koran 5:33).

"Making mischief in the land" is precisely what the secular media is being accused of, by constantly exposing the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamist agenda. Even the Jihad Group to Cleanse the Country, which threatens to "liquidate" many secular media, accuses them of "creating chaos to implement the American and Zionist agenda."

Finally, it is telling that only a few months ago, and for the first time in Egypt's modern history, an Egyptian MP proposed to institutionalize Sharia's most draconian punishments—including crucifixion.

In short, under the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the bottle has been uncorked and the Islamic Genie set loose. Expect much worse to come.

SaintLouieWoman
08-18-2012, 12:46 AM
OMG, going back to the days of Christ. Who didn't see this coming? But I'm sure no one thought it would be this brutal.

LukeEDay
08-18-2012, 01:45 AM
And these are the people that Captain Zero praised. And also the people that Captain Zero wants to give aid to! Tell me again that he isn't a Muslim.

Zathras
08-18-2012, 02:42 AM
I really hope Israel is keeping an eye on their southern border. This will evolve into a shooting war with Egypt if the Muslim Brotherhood continues down the road they are on. And what makes it worse is we've armed the Egyptian armed forces with some really good equipment. Whether or not they can use it to its full effect is yet to be seen however.

Janice
08-18-2012, 12:11 PM
Welcome to 0bamaland.

Janice
08-18-2012, 12:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFzlh0QxnxY

June 6, 2012

Odysseus
08-18-2012, 12:29 PM
OMG, going back to the days of Christ. Who didn't see this coming? But I'm sure no one thought it would be this brutal.

Obama didn't see it coming, but anyone who has experience with Islam saw this coming a mile away. We just weren't believed.

Bondai
08-18-2012, 01:28 PM
The purge begins.

Rockntractor
08-18-2012, 01:29 PM
Obama didn't see it coming, but anyone who has experience with Islam saw this coming a mile away. We just weren't believed.

He supports The Brotherhood wherever they are active regardless of who is in power.

Gina
08-18-2012, 01:42 PM
Were the elections rigged? Did the Egyptian people want this? It makes me sick to my stomach..

Rockntractor
08-18-2012, 01:47 PM
Were the elections rigged? Did the Egyptian people want this? It makes me sick to my stomach..

Islam is demon possession plain and simple.

txradioguy
08-18-2012, 02:50 PM
Obama didn't see it coming, but anyone who has experience with Islam saw this coming a mile away. We just weren't believed.

Yeah no shit...suddenly you and I don't seem as hysterical about our warnings to people do we?

txradioguy
08-18-2012, 02:52 PM
Islam is demon possession plain and simple.

Well in that case...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/Sam_and_dean_winchester.jpg

Maybe we should get these two guys to kill the demon. :cool:

LukeEDay
08-18-2012, 03:27 PM
Didn't the Muslim Brotherhood say that Christians will not be harmed before they got elected? Anyone with a brain would know that they were lying.

That video above was done during the Arab Spring. Something else that Captain Zero praised.

Chuck58
08-18-2012, 03:59 PM
Didn't the Muslim Brotherhood say that Christians will not be harmed before they got elected? Anyone with a brain would know that they were lying.

That video above was done during the Arab Spring. Something else that Captain Zero praised.

There's this little thing I found in a different article about the violence. Didn't bookmark or save the url.

Ibrahim said extra brutality is reserved for Christians, but the crucifixions are because of Islamic doctrine and are required by the Quran.

Rockntractor
08-18-2012, 04:13 PM
There's this little thing I found in a different article about the violence. Didn't bookmark or save the url.

Ibrahim said extra brutality is reserved for Christians, but the crucifixions are because of Islamic doctrine and are required by the Quran.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/arab-spring-run-amok-brotherhood-starts-crucifixions/

Lanie
08-18-2012, 06:13 PM
These Muslim Brotherhood people need to die YESTERDAY.

SarasotaRepub
08-18-2012, 06:21 PM
Hey, hey!!! No being critical of the Religion of Pieces....I mean Peace!!!! :nono:

Lanie
08-18-2012, 06:29 PM
I really hope Israel is keeping an eye on their southern border. This will evolve into a shooting war with Egypt if the Muslim Brotherhood continues down the road they are on. And what makes it worse is we've armed the Egyptian armed forces with some really good equipment. Whether or not they can use it to its full effect is yet to be seen however.

All I can say is Israel kick some ass!


Were the elections rigged? Did the Egyptian people want this? It makes me sick to my stomach..

Keep in mind the original Egyptian government (also persecutive) was more secular. The Imam I spoke to last year said he believed that Islam (as it was supposed to be) would be a more peaceful and fair form of government. If his view reflected the views of the majority of Egyptians, then I would think they probably did vote this in.


Yeah no shit...suddenly you and I don't seem as hysterical about our warnings to people do we?

I notice this is the Muslim Brotherhood behind this. Same group that attacks Israel. I also notice that Iraq, who also voted for an Islamic government isn't having this problem. What are your thoughts about that?

What about the fact that Egypt has a long history of persecution. Know that pic of the pyramids somebody presented in another thread where Obama said "You didn't build that?" First thing I wanted to say to that was "No, they didn't build that. Jewish slaves probably did." So what was the reason for their behavior then? It just seems like no matter what government they have, it's bad.


Well in that case...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/Sam_and_dean_winchester.jpg

Maybe we should get these two guys to kill the demon. :cool:

In that case, I'll visit a mosque very soon. I want Sam. lol.

ABC in Georgia
08-18-2012, 06:37 PM
Yeah no shit...suddenly you and I don't seem as hysterical about our warnings to people do we?

Hi Tex ...

Is no surprise to me either.

Anyone that knows the name Robert Spenser and Pamela Geller, know very well which end is up. I too have been telling my friends for some time now, and lending out my Robert Spenser books for them to read.

Here is a great site, in case anyone in here has missed out on it. The comments are well worth reading as well.

www.jihadwatch.org

~ ABC

LukeEDay
08-18-2012, 06:55 PM
There's this little thing I found in a different article about the violence. Didn't bookmark or save the url.

Ibrahim said extra brutality is reserved for Christians, but the crucifixions are because of Islamic doctrine and are required by the Quran.

Anyone who tries to tell me that Islam is a religion of peace will be kicked. Someone needs to slap those uneducated morons into reality.

Odysseus
08-19-2012, 12:50 AM
Yeah no shit...suddenly you and I don't seem as hysterical about our warnings to people do we?
Funny thing about that. Churchill warned the world about the Nazis throughout the 1930s, and was made Prime Minister after the people who had refused to listen to him were discredited. Then, after he had guided Britain through WWII, the Brits voted him out and replaced him with Clement Atlee, who had been one of the worst appeasers and peaceniks prior to the war.



All I can say is Israel kick some ass!

Keep in mind the original Egyptian government (also persecutive) was more secular. The Imam I spoke to last year said he believed that Islam (as it was supposed to be) would be a more peaceful and fair form of government. If his view reflected the views of the majority of Egyptians, then I would think they probably did vote this in.

The Imam that you spoke to probably believes that crucifixion of infidels is fair. He also lied about the peaceful part. Islam isn't simply a religion. It's a totalitarian political structure that uses religion as a means of expansion. Mohammed got nowhere as a preacher, but when he began killing his opponents, stealing their property and dividing up their women among his followers, his cult became a major force. The lesson that subsequent generations of caliphs gleaned from this is that war is lucrative and infidels exist to be plundered and enslaved, and those who spread confusion (i.e., refuse to be plundered and enslaved) must be made an example of.


I notice this is the Muslim Brotherhood behind this. Same group that attacks Israel. I also notice that Iraq, who also voted for an Islamic government isn't having this problem. What are your thoughts about that?

Iraq is having his problem. Iraqi Christians have been fleeing the country en masse.

Christians fleeing Iraq
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 14, 2012
Sectarian violence targeting Christians in Iraq has caused hundreds of thousands of them to flee their homes and homeland since 2003, when the U.S.-led invasion ousted Saddam Hussein. According to international estimates, Iraq’s prewar Christian population of between 800,000 and 1.4 million has dwindled to fewer than 500,000. Their numbers continue to decline: frightened by assassinations and bombings, Christians are fleeing safe havens where they once sought refuge in the Kurdistan region of northern Iraq.
Christian-owned liquor stores have been the target of arson attacks, a Christian businessman was kidnapped in the Kurdistan capital of Erbil and several others gunned down in another village, the New York Times reported.
Many of Kurdistan’s Christian population gave up homes and possessions to seek safety there after an October 2010 suicide attack on a Christian church in Baghdad killed more than 50 people. Yet they face intimidation, bombings and threats in the north. The International Organization for Migration has been tracking 1,350 displaced Christian families in northern Iraq. In January, it said that 850 of them had left in the prior year.
The Kurdish government offers assistance such as land and free fuel, and Christians are allotted seats on local governing councils as well as in parliament in Kurdistan and Baghdad. But that is not enough for those such as Walid Shamoon, who gave up a $1,500-a-month job at the Australian Embassy to flee Baghdad in January 1011 after an attempt on his life. “This is not a life. There is no improvement. There is no work,” he said. He wants to emigrate to Arizona.
The withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq has also removed some of the protection for religious minorities. Security, though, is not the only reason for the exodus: it is driven also by a lack of work and poor living conditions.
In a recent report, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom said, “The consequence of this flight may be the end of Christianity in Iraq.” As Christians flee, Iraq is losing part of its spiritual and cultural heritage
.


This is typical of Islamic governance. In every country where Sharia law has been adopted, religious minorities end up persecuted out of existence.


What about the fact that Egypt has a long history of persecution. Know that pic of the pyramids somebody presented in another thread where Obama said "You didn't build that?" First thing I wanted to say to that was "No, they didn't build that. Jewish slaves probably did." So what was the reason for their behavior then? It just seems like no matter what government they have, it's bad.

In that case, I'll visit a mosque very soon. I want Sam. lol.

Egypt wasn't always a backward hellhole. After the rise of Christianity, Alexandria became one of the great centers of knowledge in the world. The Muslim conquest destroyed that heritage (deliberately) and subjected Egypt to centuries of stagnation and violence.

Again, this was completely predictable to anyone who knew the history of Islam and its interactions with any other culture. The sad thing is that anyone in the State Department who would have been willing to say this would have been fired on the spot.

Chuck58
08-19-2012, 01:28 AM
That's right. It's happening in Iraq as well. There's a Dutch report of Christians being crucified. Tied to trees with ropes, then nailed and the ropes set afire. The report I saw mentioned the poster seeing one victim who survived and viewing the nail holes in his wrists.

If this is the Arab Spring, I wonder what the Arab Winter will bring?

Kramer
08-19-2012, 08:51 AM
It truly amazes me that in this day & age, in the 21st century, that human beings still act this way, that they decide to make every one else's lives a living hell because of something some goddam books says. Bunch of fucking unenlightened, unevolved, barbaric neanderthals.

Meanwhile in America, we like to bitch about tax returns and chicken sandwiches.

AmPat
08-19-2012, 12:23 PM
Wow! O Blow Hard must be pleased. He actually had a hand in bridging Christianity and izlam.

txradioguy
08-19-2012, 01:16 PM
I notice this is the Muslim Brotherhood behind this. Same group that attacks Israel. I also notice that Iraq, who also voted for an Islamic government isn't having this problem. What are your thoughts about that?

My thoughts? That again you're tragically misinformed...but then that's par for the course.

Iraq is having violence problems. Have you not read the papers lately?


Wave of attacks rumbles across Iraq, killing 59

BAGHDAD—Insurgents in Iraq unleashed a relentless wave of attacks from before dawn until late at night Thursday, killing 59 people and wounding many more in a deadly show of force aimed at undermining the government's authority.

The bomb and shooting attacks made for the country's deadliest day in more than three weeks, rattling nerves as families prepared to gather for a holiday weekend. More than 150 people have been killed in violence across the country since the start of August, showing that insurgents led by al-Qaida's Iraqi franchise remain a lethal force eight months after the last U.S. troops left the country.

Five of the attacks accounted for more than half of the casualties.

A morning car bomb in Baghdad's northeastern and mostly Shiite neighborhood of Husseiniyah killed seven people and wounded 31.


http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_21325547/attacks-northern-iraq-kill-2-injure-25-others

That's just the most recent...from two days ago. But you keep thinking that there's no problem in Iraq.

Not to mention that the Caledonian Christians have been persecuted almost into extinction in Baghdad.


8/16/2012 Iraq (Opposing Views) – Mosul is now one of the most violent cities in Iraq with Christians and other minorities often targets of the violence.

As a result, thousands of Christians have left the Iraqi city since 2003 when U.S. forces deposed Saddam Hussein. The war triggered a wave of continuous violence in the second largest city in Iraq.

Before 2003, Mosul was home to 75,000 Christians. Approximately 70 percent belonged to the Chaldean Church, while the rest were Syriac Orthodox and Catholic. Now approximately 25,000 Christians live in Mosul, which has a population of 2 million. Many more Christians live in the surrounding Nineveh province.

Dr. Carl Moeller, Open Doors USA President/CEO, labels the attacks against Christians in Mosul and all of Iraq as "religicide." He states: "Christians in cities like Baghdad and Mosul are gripped by terrorism. They are fleeing in droves. Today it was reported that at least 20 people died in blasts and shootings across the country.

"With the spotlight currently on Syria, Nigeria and Afghanistan and the pullout of U.S. troops from Iraq last December, Iraq has been placed on the back-burner. But we as Christians in the West must continue to pray for our brothers and sisters in Iraq, who face extinction if we don't pray and advocate for them."

http://www.persecution.org/2012/08/18/thousands-of-christians-flee-iraqi-city-due-to-violence/




What about the fact that Egypt has a long history of persecution. Know that pic of the pyramids somebody presented in another thread where Obama said "You didn't build that?" First thing I wanted to say to that was "No, they didn't build that. Jewish slaves probably did." So what was the reason for their behavior then?

Why is it that you Libs always insist on going back 200-300 years to justify your misguided point? Why can't you deal in the here and now?



It just seems like no matter what government they have, it's bad.

That totally ignores the peace and stability Egypt helped bring to the region since the mid 70's. Anwar Sadat was killed by Muslim extremists because he made peace with Israel. His successor Hosni Mubarak continued what Sadat started. With Obama turning a blind eye to what was happening in Egypt...he's managed to destabilize the region and bring us that much closer to confrontation with a unified radical alliance in the Muslim world against anyone that's not Muslim.

Gina
08-19-2012, 02:14 PM
To be fair to Lanie, the MSM doesn't cover Iraq death by death like they did when Dubya was in charge. I'm surprised Afghanistan is getting any ink at all.

Just saw breaking news (AP) that another US troop was killed in Afghanistan by an Afghan trainee. It's happening a lot.

Us leaving Iraq gave way to the freedom to kill non-muslims unfettered.

Lanie
08-19-2012, 07:25 PM
The Imam that you spoke to probably believes that crucifixion of infidels is fair. He also lied about the peaceful part. Islam isn't simply a religion. It's a totalitarian political structure that uses religion as a means of expansion. Mohammed got nowhere as a preacher, but when he began killing his opponents, stealing their property and dividing up their women among his followers, his cult became a major force. The lesson that subsequent generations of caliphs gleaned from this is that war is lucrative and infidels exist to be plundered and enslaved, and those who spread confusion (i.e., refuse to be plundered and enslaved) must be made an example of.

Sigh. So any Muslim who says that murder is wrong and that we should live in peace with other religions is lying? Give me a break.

This guy told me about how things started going bad when they took prayer out of schools. I reminded him it was Christian prayers that got taken out. He suggested that schools have students divide up into groups according to religion so they could pray and study. It was all a lie? Really? Why do extremists like the Muslim Brotherhood get to speak for all Muslims?




Iraq is having his problem. Iraqi Christians have been fleeing the country en masse.

Christians fleeing Iraq
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 14, 2012
Sectarian violence targeting Christians in Iraq has caused hundreds of thousands of them to flee their homes and homeland since 2003, when the U.S.-led invasion ousted Saddam Hussein. According to international estimates, Iraq’s prewar Christian population of between 800,000 and 1.4 million has dwindled to fewer than 500,000. Their numbers continue to decline: frightened by assassinations and bombings, Christians are fleeing safe havens where they once sought refuge in the Kurdistan region of northern Iraq.
Christian-owned liquor stores have been the target of arson attacks, a Christian businessman was kidnapped in the Kurdistan capital of Erbil and several others gunned down in another village, the New York Times reported.
Many of Kurdistan’s Christian population gave up homes and possessions to seek safety there after an October 2010 suicide attack on a Christian church in Baghdad killed more than 50 people. Yet they face intimidation, bombings and threats in the north. The International Organization for Migration has been tracking 1,350 displaced Christian families in northern Iraq. In January, it said that 850 of them had left in the prior year.
The Kurdish government offers assistance such as land and free fuel, and Christians are allotted seats on local governing councils as well as in parliament in Kurdistan and Baghdad. But that is not enough for those such as Walid Shamoon, who gave up a $1,500-a-month job at the Australian Embassy to flee Baghdad in January 1011 after an attempt on his life. “This is not a life. There is no improvement. There is no work,” he said. He wants to emigrate to Arizona.
The withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq has also removed some of the protection for religious minorities. Security, though, is not the only reason for the exodus: it is driven also by a lack of work and poor living conditions.
In a recent report, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom said, “The consequence of this flight may be the end of Christianity in Iraq.” As Christians flee, Iraq is losing part of its spiritual and cultural heritage
.


This is typical of Islamic governance. In every country where Sharia law has been adopted, religious minorities end up persecuted out of existence.

Thanks for the link. It looks like terrorists, not the Iraqi government is doing this. Kurdish government? I must be missing something. I do think it's possible that those in the Iraqi government might be turning a blind eye, but we don't know that for certain.




Egypt wasn't always a backward hellhole. After the rise of Christianity, Alexandria became one of the great centers of knowledge in the world. The Muslim conquest destroyed that heritage (deliberately) and subjected Egypt to centuries of stagnation and violence.

Again, this was completely predictable to anyone who knew the history of Islam and its interactions with any other culture. The sad thing is that anyone in the State Department who would have been willing to say this would have been fired on the spot.

Islam was enlightened for its day. Unlike Christian countries, they allowed other monotheists to live there. They were second class citizens though. Everybody seems to forget that Christian countries didn't allow other religions at all or even denominations at times. If you were Protestant in a Catholic country, then you better convert, get out, or die. That's a fact.

Muslims started getting violent after the rise of Islam because people had it in their head to kill the Muslims in the area. I would have fought back too.

Lanie
08-19-2012, 07:53 PM
My thoughts? That again you're tragically misinformed...but then that's par for the course.

This isn't the Iraqi government. This is a bunch of terrorists. These same people kill Muslims of a different sect. I have a fantastic idea since we can't kill all of the Muslim world (millions of people and all). Let's go in and kill all of the terrorists and their leaders. We'll get Israel to help us with the Muslim Brotherhood since they're bombing Israel anyway. We bomb every single place associated with their group. We get the help of the people in the areas. We make examples out of them.




Why is it that you Libs always insist on going back 200-300 years to justify your misguided point? Why can't you deal in the here and now?

Because it matters. I didn't go back 200-300 years. I went back five or six thousand years. This country has always had problems right up to the last regime. The last regime was persecuting people. That's why people in Egypt wanted a revolution so badly. They thought an Islamic government would be the answer since that's what they had before. They were wrong. Just because they were wrong doesn't mean they shouldn't keep trying for a truly free government. People seem to think that just because they're not us means they have to have a "lesser of the two evils" in regards to which tyrant runs their country. That's not true. They can have freedom. Not sure how yet though. They weren't wrong to want revolution. They chose their new leaders poorly.

Not to mention Ody's claiming Islam was always evil and that Christianity somehow made Egypt better. My gosh, any country Christians ruled way back when was persecutive. You realize neither one of us would have survived a Christian middle aged country, right? There's no way. Most of us would be dead. By contrast, Muslims did allow other monotheistic religions so long as they didn't try to rise up to get power. Not enlightened by our standards, but back then it meant something.





That totally ignores the peace and stability Egypt helped bring to the region since the mid 70's. Anwar Sadat was killed by Muslim extremists because he made peace with Israel. His successor Hosni Mubarak continued what Sadat started. With Obama turning a blind eye to what was happening in Egypt...he's managed to destabilize the region and bring us that much closer to confrontation with a unified radical alliance in the Muslim world against anyone that's not Muslim.

I admire Sadat's williness to make peace with Israel. How did Egypt treat its actual citizens? Horribly. They got tired of it. Just because Mubarak was more secular doesn't mean he was any less crooked. The guy ruled for thirty years. Thirty years. That's not freedom. And it's been argued that elections got rigged. He was known for killing demonstrators. Having Mubarak out of power leaves Christians in danger. People in general were already in danger though. Neither Mubarak nor the Muslim Brotherhood was the answer.

m00
08-19-2012, 08:32 PM
Were the elections rigged? Did the Egyptian people want this? It makes me sick to my stomach..

No. The elections weren't rigged. The election came down to between someone associated with the Mubarak regime, and the MB. So the MB won as a "lesser of two evils." It's unfortunate, because a very well-meaning and liberal/intellectual (not in the bad way) peaceful revolution became hijacked after it succeeded.

Basically it's Iran 1979 all over again.

txradioguy
08-20-2012, 01:45 AM
This isn't the Iraqi government. This is a bunch of terrorists. These same people kill Muslims of a different sect. I have a fantastic idea since we can't kill all of the Muslim world (millions of people and all). Let's go in and kill all of the terrorists and their leaders. We'll get Israel to help us with the Muslim Brotherhood since they're bombing Israel anyway. We bomb every single place associated with their group. We get the help of the people in the areas. We make examples out of them.

Jus one problem with that...the guy you voted for doesn't want to.





Because it matters. I didn't go back 200-300 years. I went back five or six thousand years. This country has always had problems right up to the last regime. The last regime was persecuting people. That's why people in Egypt wanted a revolution so badly. They thought an Islamic government would be the answer since that's what they had before. They were wrong. Just because they were wrong doesn't mean they shouldn't keep trying for a truly free government. People seem to think that just because they're not us means they have to have a "lesser of the two evils" in regards to which tyrant runs their country. That's not true. They can have freedom. Not sure how yet though. They weren't wrong to want revolution. They chose their new leaders poorly.

It ONLY matters when you whiny Libs want to make some stupid moreal equivalency argument. You do it so you can say "see they do it too".

Amazing how you Libs are willing to do the reach back in hostory on everything except our own Constitution and anything having to do with the Founding Fathers.

When they get brought up it's all about the here and now.

What you want us to buy into is blaming Moses for what's happening in Egypt today because the Jews rose up agaisnt the Pharoh. Anyone with a brain can see that and isn't going to buy into that kind of simplistic bullshit.,

Except for you of course.


Not to mention Ody's claiming Islam was always evil and that Christianity somehow made Egypt better. My gosh, any country Christians ruled way back when was persecutive.

No...he's right. See that's the difference between Ody myself and you. We've seen Islam up close and personal. We've studied it...not allegedly been given some sanitized version for non believers like you CLAIM you have in supposedly talking with that Imam. It is evil it has always been evil and for the purveyors of Islam that seeks to destroy anything that isn't Islam it will always be evil. And it must be stopped.



You realize neither one of us would have survived a Christian middle aged country, right? There's no way. Most of us would be dead.

Speak for yourself. I'd have done just fine. But then again I'm not a squishy Lib like you.


By contrast, Muslims did allow other monotheistic religions so long as they didn't try to rise up to get power. Not enlightened by our standards, but back then it meant something.

That is such crap I don't know where to begin. Again this is where your attempt to reach back in hostory to justify your misguided perceptions fails you. Was ALL religion at some time brutal? Yes. Hell the Pope had his own army.

But what seperates Christianity from Islam is the fact that Christians moved away from the "convert or die" mentality...there was a great evolution of what it meant to be a Christian and believe in God and the bible. Thus the reason it is the peaceful religion it is today.

Islam didn't evolve. It stayed right where it was 500 years ago. It hasn't evolved and neither has it's followers.




I admire Sadat's williness to make peace with Israel. How did Egypt treat its actual citizens? Horribly. They got tired of it. Just because Mubarak was more secular doesn't mean he was any less crooked.

You don't know that either one of them was crooked. How do you know the citizens were treated horribly/ Were you there? No. What happened is that the Muslim Brotherhood...a radical group that had been banned from the country for decades because of their attempts to overthrow the Government staged a coup because our government had sent signals that we wouldn't step in and stop it or support Egypt. This was hammered home by things said by Obama after the protests started in Tahari Square. The brotherhood was given the green light...by us.

Now look what's happening. The blood from these crucifixions is partially on Obama's hands.



The guy ruled for thirty years. Thirty years. That's not freedom.

Says who?



And it's been argued that elections got rigged. He was known for killing demonstrators.

I suppose you have links right?


Having Mubarak out of power leaves Christians in danger

Mubarak or his successor out of power leaves the ENTIRE REGION in danger. It has severly destabilized the region.

Did you see the little news piece over the weekend that the thug-in-chief in Egypt is going to visit his Iranian counterpart? First time that's happened since the early
70's.



People in general were already in danger though.

How do you figure? Because your misguided naive Liberal feelings told you that if we supported Mubarak it must be wrong? That because the Egyptian government suppressed a radical islamic terrorist group intent on implementing Sharia law across the land if given the chance that somehow made them dangerous?



Neither Mubarak nor the Muslim Brotherhood was the answer.

Except that with Mubarak we were not only guarenteed a stable reliable ally in that area along with Israel. Now we have another enemy in the making.

Odysseus
08-20-2012, 08:52 AM
Sigh. So any Muslim who says that murder is wrong and that we should live in peace with other religions is lying? Give me a break.

This guy told me about how things started going bad when they took prayer out of schools. I reminded him it was Christian prayers that got taken out. He suggested that schools have students divide up into groups according to religion so they could pray and study. It was all a lie? Really? Why do extremists like the Muslim Brotherhood get to speak for all Muslims?
The Muslim Brotherhood gets to speak for them because they are the best-organized, best-armed and most fanatical faction, and everybody else is cowed. Do you rhink that Egyptians who oppose the Brotherhood will stand up to them when they are crucifying anyone who disagrees with their agenda? The Brotherhood is about Islamic supremacy. Think about what you are hearing. He proposed separating kids by religion in public schools, and Muslim kids would be praying five times per day. That means that they would be separated five times per day. Do you agree with that? Does that seem reasonable to you?


Thanks for the link. It looks like terrorists, not the Iraqi government is doing this. Kurdish government? I must be missing something. I do think it's possible that those in the Iraqi government might be turning a blind eye, but we don't know that for certain.

Then listen to those of us who do know for certain, i.e., those of us who have been there. The Iraqi constitution enshrined Sharia law into Iraqi law. Do you really think that the government of Iraq didn't know what it was doing when it decided to impose Sharia? That's like arguing that Kristalnacht was only a mob action, not a policy of the German government. What you don't get is that the mob and the government are the same. Sharia compels believers to impose humiliation and death on infidels. That means that the Iraqi constitution, which states that no law in Iraq can be in conflict with Sharia, tacitly supports this.


Islam was enlightened for its day. Unlike Christian countries, they allowed other monotheists to live there. They were second class citizens though. Everybody seems to forget that Christian countries didn't allow other religions at all or even denominations at times. If you were Protestant in a Catholic country, then you better convert, get out, or die. That's a fact.

Remember who you're talking to, Lanie. I am inimately familiar with the history of Christianity and other religions. And no, Islam was not enlightened in its day. It compelled the subjugation, humiliation or death of all unbelievers, and while Christians and Jews were offered the option of dhimmitude (a horrifically degrading and insulting status), others were simply slaughtered or enslaved. Look at the history of Hindus and Sikhs in India for an example. And, dhimmitude wasn't a requirement for Muslim rulers, it was an option, which many chose not to exercise. For every caliph who protected the "people of the book", there were others who sought to expel or slaughter them. The Armenian Genocide was an example of this.


Muslims started getting violent after the rise of Islam because people had it in their head to kill the Muslims in the area. I would have fought back too.

This is patently false. Mohammed established a violent empire based on conquest. His colony in Medina supported itself by raiding caravans from Mecca and enslaved anyone who survived the raids. Eventually, the Meccans had enough and tried to fight Mohammed, who violated every pact that he made with them. His philosophy was violent and duplicitous from the beginning.

txradioguy
08-20-2012, 01:25 PM
A Christian girl with Down syndrome could be punished by death in Pakistan after she was spotted holding burned pages of Islamic text in public, activists and police say.

The girl, identified by police as Rimsha, was arrested on blasphemy charges and is being detained in Islamabad ahead of a court appearance before the end of the month, AFP reports.

Defaming Islam, the Koran or the Prophet Muhammed is a capital offense in Pakistan.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/08/20/christian-girl-with-down-syndrome-faces-death-penalty-for-allegedly-burning/


Tell me Bridget...does that sound like a religion that at any time in history was "enlightened"?

Lanie
08-22-2012, 06:50 PM
Jus one problem with that...the guy you voted for doesn't want to.

True. :blue:



What you want us to buy into is blaming Moses for what's happening in Egypt today because the Jews rose up agaisnt the Pharoh. Anyone with a brain can see that and isn't going to buy into that kind of simplistic bullshit.,

Except for you of course.

What the crap? Where did I say I was blaming Moses? Did you seriously type that with a straight face? I blame Egypt for always have a problem with tolerance.



No...he's right. See that's the difference between Ody myself and you. We've seen Islam up close and personal. We've studied it...not allegedly been given some sanitized version for non believers like you CLAIM you have in supposedly talking with that Imam. It is evil it has always been evil and for the purveyors of Islam that seeks to destroy anything that isn't Islam it will always be evil. And it must be stopped.

It hurts that you think I lied about speaking to an Imam. That only makes me question more the accusation that Muslims are lying. It shows me that you accuse somebody of lying who is not.

If you truly believe that Islam is evil and that the people practicing it are evil, then what would you like to do with the countries full of Muslims? Keep in mind they are Muslims. They may or may not support the Muslim brotherhood, but they're Muslims. I know you do not believe they're all evil.



Speak for yourself. I'd have done just fine. But then again I'm not a squishy Lib like you.

Have you ever taken an herb for anything? If so, then you're a witch. Ever date divorced women? That's a no-no. Have you ever become unequally yoked by dating a woman who wasn't your religion or denomination? You may be a Christian, but you aren't a saint.



That is such crap I don't know where to begin. Again this is where your attempt to reach back in hostory to justify your misguided perceptions fails you. Was ALL religion at some time brutal? Yes. Hell the Pope had his own army.

But what seperates Christianity from Islam is the fact that Christians moved away from the "convert or die" mentality...there was a great evolution of what it meant to be a Christian and believe in God and the bible. Thus the reason it is the peaceful religion it is today.

Islam didn't evolve. It stayed right where it was 500 years ago. It hasn't evolved and neither has it's followers.

It's been argued that they need more time like we got. Problem is we don't have it in a world with nuclear weapons. What about the millions of Muslims over here? They appear to be "evolved." I don't think you believe all Muslims are evil.



You don't know that either one of them was crooked. How do you know the citizens were treated horribly/ Were you there? No. What happened is that the Muslim Brotherhood...a radical group that had been banned from the country for decades because of their attempts to overthrow the Government staged a coup because our government had sent signals that we wouldn't step in and stop it or support Egypt. This was hammered home by things said by Obama after the protests started in Tahari Square. The brotherhood was given the green light...by us.

They never should have been forced to have the same leader for thirty years. That's being a tyrant. Do you really believe Egypt had to be in a situation of either accepting the same tyrant guy for thirty years or be subjected to the Muslim Brotherhood? Why did it have to be one or the other?


Now look what's happening. The blood from these crucifixions is partially on Obama's hands.

The people responsible for this are the Muslim Brotherhood, and I say we destroy them once and for all.



Links for rigged elections

Not that it will matter.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-12-13/egyptians-protest-against-rigged-elections/2372042


Human rights groups there and abroad have alleged widespread fraud, from ballot box stuffing to removing candidates' names from the list, intimidation and outright violence by party thugs and security forces.

How does a guy *honestly* stay in power for thirty years? You have kept track of Putin haven't you? (Another country that has never known freedom). He makes sure that people don't know much about his opposition, meaning he'll always be voted back in. Do you really think the last leader of Egypt was honest?

Lanie
08-22-2012, 06:58 PM
The Muslim Brotherhood gets to speak for them because they are the best-organized, best-armed and most fanatical faction, and everybody else is cowed. Do you rhink that Egyptians who oppose the Brotherhood will stand up to them when they are crucifying anyone who disagrees with their agenda? The Brotherhood is about Islamic supremacy. Think about what you are hearing. He proposed separating kids by religion in public schools, and Muslim kids would be praying five times per day. That means that they would be separated five times per day. Do you agree with that? Does that seem reasonable to you?

Muslim kids do get to be separated in schools to pray. From what I could tell, it was only at lunch, but it didn't seem to cause any harm. You pray, and then go back to class.

I don't think Egyptians will want to fight back right now. That doesn't mean they won't. People from Iran have been standing up to their theocracy government years after the Shah was taken out. Egypt will get to that point as well.



Then listen to those of us who do know for certain, i.e., those of us who have been there. The Iraqi constitution enshrined Sharia law into Iraqi law. Do you really think that the government of Iraq didn't know what it was doing when it decided to impose Sharia? That's like arguing that Kristalnacht was only a mob action, not a policy of the German government. What you don't get is that the mob and the government are the same. Sharia compels believers to impose humiliation and death on infidels. That means that the Iraqi constitution, which states that no law in Iraq can be in conflict with Sharia, tacitly supports this.

Ody, the problem is by demonizing Islam, you're demonizing every last person who practices it. If they're all evil, shouldn't they all die? Do you believe that? If you don't believe that, then why not? That's the problem here. I don't have a problem with condemning theocracy. I have a problem with declaring every last Muslim to be evil. It opens the door to some dangerous ideas.



Remember who you're talking to, Lanie. I am inimately familiar with the history of Christianity and other religions. And no, Islam was not enlightened in its day. It compelled the subjugation, humiliation or death of all unbelievers, and while Christians and Jews were offered the option of dhimmitude (a horrifically degrading and insulting status), others were simply slaughtered or enslaved. Look at the history of Hindus and Sikhs in India for an example. And, dhimmitude wasn't a requirement for Muslim rulers, it was an option, which many chose not to exercise. For every caliph who protected the "people of the book", there were others who sought to expel or slaughter them. The Armenian Genocide was an example of this.

Ok.

Rockntractor
08-22-2012, 07:49 PM
Lanie the longer I know you the more naive you become, how is that possible?

Lanie
08-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Lanie the longer I know you the more naive you become, how is that possible?

Which part?

Rockntractor
08-22-2012, 08:15 PM
Which part?

Islam wants you dead Lanie, all of Islam.

Lanie
08-22-2012, 08:18 PM
Islam wants you dead Lanie, all of Islam.

So, every last Muslim wants me dead? Should we kill them all first? How do we know they're not told the same thing about us? They're human beings.

And you want to know why I can't be conservative. It doesn't even feel natural to me. Every time I consider it, I feel like I'm going to the dark side and that the cookies are stale. There's no compromising, no middle ground, no acknowledging the humanity of those different from you.

Rockntractor
08-22-2012, 08:21 PM
So, every last Muslim wants me dead? Should we kill them all first? How do we know they're not told the same thing about us? They're human beings.

And you want to know why I can't be conservative. It doesn't even feel natural to me. Every time I consider it, I feel like I'm going to the dark side and that the cookies are stale. There's no compromising, no middle ground, no acknowledging the humanity of those different from you.

No need to kill all of them for several hundred years we just made sure they stayed there.

Lanie
08-22-2012, 10:00 PM
No need to kill all of them for several hundred years we just made sure they stayed there.

Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

Rockntractor
08-22-2012, 10:22 PM
Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

Our cultures mix like oil and water.

txradioguy
08-23-2012, 12:49 AM
Lanie the longer I know you the more naive you become, how is that possible?

She's not naive Rock. She knows what she's doing and saying. Any hint of her being naive is an act.

Lanie
08-23-2012, 09:20 AM
She's not naive Rock. She knows what she's doing and saying. Any hint of her being naive is an act.

Nice dodge.

Odysseus
08-23-2012, 09:43 AM
Muslim kids do get to be separated in schools to pray. From what I could tell, it was only at lunch, but it didn't seem to cause any harm. You pray, and then go back to class.

This happens in public schools? Seriously? If Christian or Jewish kids tried to do that, the ACLU would represent the school system that suspended them.

And, "from what [you] can tell" is hardly the standard. The whole point of Sharia is to establish Muslim superiority. In the example that you just cited, Muslim kids are getting a privilege that other religious don't get. That leaves three courses of action: The other religions can try to demand the same privilege, in which case we end up Balkanizing the schools; they can ignore it, and accept that the Muslims get a special dispensation, which will lead to more demands (footbaths will have to be installed, permanent markings towards Mecca will be emplaced, and additional prayers will be scheduled in order to ensure that they don't miss a session) or, they can object and demand that no kids pray during school hours, in which case they will be accused of racism. No matter what the Christians and Jews do, the end result will be polarization and enmity between the Muslims and everybody else, which further insulates the Muslim community and diminishes assimilation. Eventually, you get the kind of Muslim-only enclaves that you already have throughout Europe.


I don't think Egyptians will want to fight back right now. That doesn't mean they won't. People from Iran have been standing up to their theocracy government years after the Shah was taken out. Egypt will get to that point as well.

Some of them already are. There have been protests against the Muslim Brotherhood's reimposition of censorship after the press published some criticisms of Mursi, and the protest against Hillary Clinton's convoy was done because she was perceived to have been working to get the Muslim Brotherhood into power. However, these are isolated acts by a minority. The majority supported the Muslim Brotherhood, which is why they are in power, and now that they have that power, they will not voluntarily relinquish it. By the time that they are forced out, it may be too late for the rest of the world.


Ody, the problem is by demonizing Islam, you're demonizing every last person who practices it. If they're all evil, shouldn't they all die? Do you believe that? If you don't believe that, then why not? That's the problem here. I don't have a problem with condemning theocracy. I have a problem with declaring every last Muslim to be evil. It opens the door to some dangerous ideas.

The problem here is that you are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that all Muslims are evil, just as I have never said that all persons living in Russia were evil when the Soviet Union was exporting an evil doctrine. Islam, as a political doctrine, is horrifically destructive and intolerant. It is a totalitarian system which incorporates religious fanaticism into political imperialism, with the end result being societies that rot and decay from within, but not before they have conquered and subjugated those around them. Those who wish to live under it in their own lands should be allowed to do so, but they should not be permitted to forcibly export it, either by conquest or stealth. The jihad has to end at their borders, or we will truly live in Dar al Harb, the House of War.


Ok.

Ok? That's your answer to the history of Islamic imperialism and violence? Really?


Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

Yes, we are aware of that. And we're also aware of the implications of millions of people who subscribe to a totalitarian theocratic order coming to America, refusing to assimilate and gradually undermining our institutions.


I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

The mistake that was made in Iraq wasn't staying, it was leaving. We should have introduced the institutions of a trust society before we introduced democracy, but unfortunately, our politicians didn't figure that out Democracy without capitalism is a violent zero-sum game. Introducing Without secure property rights, democracy is simply factional infighting over government largess. it into a tribal society simply guarantees that the largest tribe wins and dominates the others, whose objections are met with violent reprisals.


You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

None of us want to kill Muslims. We just don't want to live under Sharia, convert or become dhimmis. We don't want our daughters to be chattel. We want liberty, which is not compatible with Islam.

Christianity and Judaism began and flourished under hostile regimes. Both religions had to survive through assimilation and subordination to the state. Islam was started and flourished under a regime of expansion through conquest. It has never had to deal with modernity, except to rebel against it. There has never been an Islamic Renaissance or Enlightenment, and the only attempt at it was cut short by the rise of the Asharite school of Islamic thought and the destruction of the Avicenian approach, which was based on empiricism and free inquiry. The Asharites were the ones who stated that all science was simply the will of Allah, and that cause and effect were illusions. It is the source of the fatalism that permeates Islam and strangles any attempts at reform. Until Islam faces its history honestly and reforms, it will continue to be a threat to the rest of the world.

Lanie
08-23-2012, 09:55 PM
The problem here is that you are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that all Muslims are evil, just as I have never said that all persons living in Russia were evil when the Soviet Union was exporting an evil doctrine. Islam, as a political doctrine, is horrifically destructive and intolerant. It is a totalitarian system which incorporates religious fanaticism into political imperialism, with the end result being societies that rot and decay from within, but not before they have conquered and subjugated those around them. Those who wish to live under it in their own lands should be allowed to do so, but they should not be permitted to forcibly export it, either by conquest or stealth. The jihad has to end at their borders, or we will truly live in Dar al Harb, the House of War.



Okay, that's all I really needed to hear since probably 99% of my arguments with you and others about Islam is about my concern about the blanket judgment. Please understand that my background is very very literal. I was raised to take the bible literally. If somebody said that something was green, it was green. It wasn't that a piece of it was green; it was green. I've never re-wired my brain to think differently. Any differing had to be clarified to me. So honestly, that's all I needed to hear. Thank you.

txradioguy
08-24-2012, 06:29 AM
Nice dodge.

Not a dodge Lanie it's the truth. I've seen your act for over 5 years now.

You ACT like you want to learn...to see things differently...and then you come right back with the same old Liberal bullshit.

Just like with religion in general...abortion and now radical Islam...you claim you want to learn to understand why we believe the way we do...but six months form now we'll be explaining the same damn thing to you again.

Lanie
08-24-2012, 09:18 AM
Not a dodge Lanie it's the truth. I've seen your act for over 5 years now.

You ACT like you want to learn...to see things differently...and then you come right back with the same old Liberal bullshit.

Just like with religion in general...abortion and now radical Islam...you claim you want to learn to understand why we believe the way we do...but six months form now we'll be explaining the same damn thing to you again.

I don't think I said in the other thread about abortion that I wanted to learn from you all. I said I wanted to know if there were resources on if the pro-life platform would have exceptions. Nothing to learn there. Either they will or they won't.

Now, Ody has said he doesn't think every last Muslim is evil, so I probably won't ask him about this again. He'll go through eternity without ever having to hear my question. You on the other hand....

Actually, you're right. I do know. I just want to hear you say it straight out. And others. Now, just because I've admitted what I wanted, I'll probably get the opposite out of spite.

Also, I think you confuse wanting to learn more about something with a willingness to convert. I asked my JW friend a couple of years ago more about her faith. She and her mother confused things and said I'd be a good candidate. Uh, no.

Lanie
08-24-2012, 09:53 AM
I was speaking with somebody else about this thread in private, and this poster suggested I say what I said in private here. I know I tend to be prideful in public with people with people who don't know me well, not allowing them to see what I really think, so here it goes.



I'm sorry if I've taken things too far with the Islam argument. I've just been wanting to get to the bottom of things once and for all because people talk about how Islam is evil and destroy it. I tend to argue because I fear stuff like mass retaliation against an entire group of people. I knew you, Tx, and Rock didn't believe in that stuff, and I wanted to hear it straight out with my own ears so to speak.

And as a Christian, I am very upset about the crucifixions in Egypt. I really do want to go down there and kill some terrorists myself. I'm not lying. I want them dead.

But I'm sorry if I took it too far.



Okay, there it was. I'll come back tonight or tomorrow night depending if I do stuff.

m00
08-24-2012, 10:21 AM
I don't know if Islam is somehow inherently evil... any more so than Judaism (my religion). But see, I belong to the "Reform" branch of Judaism, which grew out of a platform of modernity and a de-emphasis on ritual, written in 1885. And yeah, I live near a Hasidic Jewish community, and I think they are pretty backwards (and do some pretty awful stuff to women). But all religious texts have some pretty weird and awful stuff in them, and part of being a morally free agent is that we all get to make up our own minds.

Another difference is that the mainline practising Jew lives in the modern world (Reform or Conservative), and it's the fringe that's stuck in the 16th century.

Problem with Islam is that there is no mainline equivalent. They're all stuck in the 7th century. There is no "modern" Islam that is sanctioned and accepted... I know there are "partially practising" Muslims who effectively live in relation to their religion like I do to mine. But the difference is I can be a practising Jew and live a modern lifestyle within the framework of my religion. Whereas if you try to live a modern lifestyle within the framework of Islam, you are de facto a "bad Muslim." And what is evil is that backwards tribal practices and rituals have seriously taken over Islam.

That's one religion that really just needs a reformation.

txradioguy
08-24-2012, 03:01 PM
I don't know if Islam is somehow inherently evil... any more so than Judaism (my religion). But see, I belong to the "Reform" branch of Judaism, which grew out of a platform of modernity and a de-emphasis on ritual, written in 1885. And yeah, I live near a Hasidic Jewish community, and I think they are pretty backwards (and do some pretty awful stuff to women). But all religious texts have some pretty weird and awful stuff in them, and part of being a morally free agent is that we all get to make up our own minds.

Another difference is that the mainline practising Jew lives in the modern world (Reform or Conservative), and it's the fringe that's stuck in the 16th century.

Problem with Islam is that there is no mainline equivalent. They're all stuck in the 7th century. There is no "modern" Islam that is sanctioned and accepted... I know there are "partially practising" Muslims who effectively live in relation to their religion like I do to mine. But the difference is I can be a practising Jew and live a modern lifestyle within the framework of my religion. Whereas if you try to live a modern lifestyle within the framework of Islam, you are de facto a "bad Muslim." And what is evil is that backwards tribal practices and rituals have seriously taken over Islam.

That's one religion that really just needs a reformation.

Rock was right.

http://www.americansweets.co.uk/ekmps/shops/statesidecandy/images/velveeta-cheese-8oz-stick-3484-p.jpg

m00
08-24-2012, 03:06 PM
Rock was right.

http://www.americansweets.co.uk/ekmps/shops/statesidecandy/images/velveeta-cheese-8oz-stick-3484-p.jpg

Thank you for your useful contribution to the thread. :smile-new:

Odysseus
08-24-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't know if Islam is somehow inherently evil... any more so than Judaism (my religion). But see, I belong to the "Reform" branch of Judaism, which grew out of a platform of modernity and a de-emphasis on ritual, written in 1885. And yeah, I live near a Hasidic Jewish community, and I think they are pretty backwards (and do some pretty awful stuff to women). But all religious texts have some pretty weird and awful stuff in them, and part of being a morally free agent is that we all get to make up our own minds.

Another difference is that the mainline practising Jew lives in the modern world (Reform or Conservative), and it's the fringe that's stuck in the 16th century.

Growing up in Conservative Judaism, I was taught that Reform Judaism is basically the Democratic Party with holidays. The Orthodox have always struck me as backward, but committed, and much more tolerant that Muslims, but that's because no branch of Judaism pretends that the Laws of Moses apply to Goyim. That's the fundamental difference between Islam and other religions. Sharia not only governs the conduct of Muslims, it governs the conduct of non-Muslims, and imposes obligations on them (and some pretty vile obligations, too).


Problem with Islam is that there is no mainline equivalent. They're all stuck in the 7th century. There is no "modern" Islam that is sanctioned and accepted... I know there are "partially practising" Muslims who effectively live in relation to their religion like I do to mine. But the difference is I can be a practising Jew and live a modern lifestyle within the framework of my religion. Whereas if you try to live a modern lifestyle within the framework of Islam, you are de facto a "bad Muslim." And what is evil is that backwards tribal practices and rituals have seriously taken over Islam.

That's one religion that really just needs a reformation.

Yes, but it's going to be a vicious and bloody reformation. The Protestant Reformation was the result of two trends colliding. The first was the rise of secular powers that were strong enough to counter the church, and the second was the decline of church authority due to the accumulated baggage of over a millenium of infighting, corruption and temptation. The Catholic Church of the Renaissance was a shadow of its former self in terms of power and moral authority, while the advent of Kings with centralized power and control of whole nations created a counterweight. Even with that, the subsequent religious wars were the bloodiest and most vicious conflicts ever seen in Europe. Imagine what happens when the mullahs lose control of their flocks.

Also, both Christianity and Judaism have traditional separations of temporal and spiritual power. Ancient Judea had kings as well as rabbis, and both had their spheres of authority. Even at the height of its powers, the Catholic Church never tried to usurp the authority of princes in the secular realm, and the princes respected the authority of Rome in the spiritual. It was only when the Protestants broke from the church that the Catholic monarchs tried to force them back into the fold through force of arms.


I was speaking with somebody else about this thread in private, and this poster suggested I say what I said in private here. I know I tend to be prideful in public with people with people who don't know me well, not allowing them to see what I really think, so here it goes.






Okay, there it was. I'll come back tonight or tomorrow night depending if I do stuff.

Gutsy move, kiddo.

wasp69
08-24-2012, 04:26 PM
And you want to know why I can't be conservative. It doesn't even feel natural to me. Every time I consider it, I feel like I'm going to the dark side and that the cookies are stale. There's no compromising, no middle ground, no acknowledging the humanity of those different from you.

You refuse to live in reality and to learn from those who have a clue as to the things about which they speak. The fact that you would argue with people who have been there/done that/managed to live through it shows the depth of your emotional and intellectual immaturity, Bridget/Lanie/Jade.

TX is right, you know. You have pulled this same act since, what, '04? '05? Ask a question under the auspices of "learning" only to turn and argue with those whom you were asking for wisdom. That is something spoiled teenagers do, not rational adults. How is it, when the evidence of what has been said for years, hits you in the face and you whine about why you can't be a conservative? Some things are the way they are, dear, and we have to deal with them.

Islam has never been about "peace", it is about submission of non believers. If you cannot see the threat around you, how can you possibly hope to stop it when it seeks to consume the world? The islamists make no bones about what they want and what they are prepared to do to obtain it. They put it out there for all to see.

Where is your sense of reality, girl? Where is the adult sense of knowing when you are threatened and there is no negotiating with insane idealogues? For the love of all that is, wake up, little girl! Nobody here hates you, we're sick and tired of trying to make you see what is plainly in front of your eyes.

AmPat
08-26-2012, 12:07 PM
Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.
Iz-lamb is evil. "You will know them by their fruit."
It is based upon borrowed beliefs and practices from Judaism, Christianity and all the pagan religions from the pedophile prophet. He completely screwed up those beliefs due to his syphilitic brain and epilepsy, and spent the rest of his deranged life trying to justify and qualify those earlier writings full of contradictory statements with "new" revelations (fevered brain visions), by saying the newest revelations were the "real" revelations.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
He "married" his older aunt and his 8 year old cousin. Sick doesn't begin to cover this disgusting pervert "Prophet."

As for the other moose-limbs you mention, they may proceed at any time at their cost to visit Iraq. How precious that they have no problem suggesting our troops go to their beloved homeland to die for something they are not willing to do themselves.

TVDOC
08-26-2012, 12:48 PM
Iz-lamb is evil. "You will know them by their fruit."
It is based upon borrowed beliefs and practices from Judaism, Christianity and all the pagan religions from the pedophile prophet. He completely screwed up those beliefs due to his syphilitic brain and epilepsy, and spent the rest of his deranged life trying to justify and qualify those earlier writings full of contradictory statements with "new" revelations (fevered brain visions), by saying the newest revelations were the "real" revelations.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
He "married" his older aunt and his 8 year old cousin. Sick doesn't begin to cover this disgusting pervert "Prophet."

As for the other moose-limbs you mention, they may proceed at any time at their cost to visit Iraq. How precious that they have no problem suggesting our troops go to their beloved homeland to die for something they are not willing to do themselves.

You DO know that Mohammad was illiterate, right? He could neither read nor write........


Gerd R. Puin's initial study of ancient Qur'an manuscripts found in Yemen led him to conclude that the Qur'an is a "cocktail of texts", some of which may have been existent a hundred years before Muhammad. He later stated that "these Yemeni Qur'anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled." Puin has stated that he believes the Qur'an was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.

Karl-Heinz Ohlig comes to the conclusion that the person of Muhammed was not central to early Islam at all, and that at this very early stage Islam was in fact an Arabic Christian sect (likely Ebionite, Arian and/or Nestorian, based on the recorded Ebionite faith of Khadija, Muhammad's first wife, and the Arianism and/or Nestorianism of her cousin, the monk Bahira, recorded by John of Damascus in the early 8th century) which had objections to the concept of the trinity, and that the later hadith and biographies are in large part legends, instrumental in severing Islam from its Christian roots and building a full-blown new religion.

John Wansbrough believes that the Qu’ran is a redaction in part of other sacred scriptures, in particular the Judaeo-Christian scriptures. Prof. Herbert Berg writes that "Despite John Wansbrough's very cautious and careful inclusion of qualifications such as "conjectural," and "tentative and emphatically provisional", his work is condemned by some. Some of negative reaction is undoubtedly due to its radicalness...Wansbrough's work has been embraced wholeheartedly by a significant number of Islamic scholars and has been employed in a piecemeal fashion by many more. Many praise his insights and methods, if not all of his conclusions."

Source: Islamic History Revisited, Walter Bern, Harvard Press, originally published October, 1985 (out of print), pp. 129-130

In short.....according to these scholars, Islam is a fraud, nothing more, nothing less......

doc

wasp69
08-27-2012, 04:17 PM
In short.....according to these scholars, Islam is a fraud, nothing more, nothing less......

doc


Think Bridget/Lanie/Jade will bother to come back and respond? I'm betting she'll avoid this post like the plague so she can claim ignorance and moral superiority over the rest of us knuckle-draggers at some future point.

Gina
08-28-2012, 12:28 AM
Lanie's explanation why she'd never be conservative is pretty much how I feel about never being a liberal. "Middle ground" though is a slippery slope, because imo liberals will compromise, meaning "agree with me or forget it".

Rockntractor
08-28-2012, 12:49 AM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/muslim-brotherhood-1.jpg

txradioguy
08-28-2012, 09:06 AM
Think Bridget/Lanie/Jade will bother to come back and respond? I'm betting she'll avoid this post like the plague so she can claim ignorance and moral superiority over the rest of us knuckle-draggers at some future point.

She'll get back to this one in about three months when everyone has forgotten about it.

She's a pro at necro-posting

txradioguy
08-28-2012, 09:06 AM
Lanie's explanation why she'd never be conservative is pretty much how I feel about never being a liberal. "Middle ground" though is a slippery slope, because imo liberals will compromise, meaning "agree with me or forget it".

Middle ground to a Lib is "STFU and do what WE say".

Every time Republicans try to reach across the aisle...all we get back is a bloody stump.

TVDOC
08-28-2012, 11:12 AM
Think Bridget/Lanie/Jade will bother to come back and respond? I'm betting she'll avoid this post like the plague so she can claim ignorance and moral superiority over the rest of us knuckle-draggers at some future point.

My guess is that you (and TRG) are right.......

My take is that she asks the same questions, over time, repeatedly, in the hope that she will get different answers. In a strange way this type of behavior is considered insanity......

doc..

wasp69
08-28-2012, 11:52 AM
My guess is that you (and TRG) are right.......

My take is that she asks the same questions, over time, repeatedly, in the hope that she will get different answers. In a strange way this type of behavior is considered insanity......

doc..

It's more the mark of someone who really doesn't want to learn and someone who does not want to face the fact that they are wrong. I have a 22 year old numbskull that calls me "dad" who does real well up until you tell him he's wrong.

Ah, well, sometimes the most important lessons we learn are the ones that hurt us the most.