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SaintLouieWoman
10-28-2012, 05:10 PM
SR and two of our friends were at brunch at a pleasant little open air restaurant (I guess you could call it that) by the water off Casey Key, the Casey Key Fish House. We were talking about the upcoming election and our exalted leader. They both are Dems, but said that they have changed their mind with everything that is being revealed. He's ex law enforcement.

The wife asked if we thought that the military generally would back the existing president as he is their CIC, or if they would support a Republican. I told her that most of the members of the military that I've encountered through business almost overwhelmingly did not support the Dems, particularly Clinton and Obama. I said that I thought both of those presidents did not treat the military with the proper respect.

Some woman (my friend and I checked her as she left and we thought she had boobs) leaned across the aisle between tables and began grilling us. We weren't talking to her, but she kept up her socialist screed. She said that I probably only talked to officers, but that the non commissioned probably would support the dems. I was getting really aggravated at that point, because she started ranting about her wide travel experiences and how she knew everything.

I've been in a bad mood with all this crap about the handling of Libya by the administration and was in no mood to suffer fools. She just kept it up and kept it up. Our friend kept replying to her. The woman identified herself as retired military. Her partner seemed to be very embarassed. When I turned around to get a good look at who was with her, the woman cringed and said that she didn't like talking about this. Nothing deterred the socialist rant of the other woman. She liked Obama because he's going to give free stuff, which we of course all deserve.

Finally I had enough and did a quickie paragraph on how capitalism is, or was, the foundation of our country and a bunch of people sitting around waiting for their handout wouldn't turn us around. She kept it up about how wonderful Europe is.

Before I would totally blow up (and I just wanted a quiet, relaxing lunch by the water), I turned my back on her and said that I'd like to resume the conversation between the 4 friends. She kept it up with my friend and dragged out way too many personal facts from her.

Why is it that libs think that they can rudely listen to people's conversations and interject themselves into those talks? The woman was rude and deluded. They finally left, with the quiet one sort of slinking out of there. The aggressive, "male" partner led the way to their boat. Apparently, somewhere along the way, they acquired some cash to afford that boat.

Oh, well, rant over.

SarasotaRepub
10-28-2012, 05:41 PM
My dear SLW was getting a tad annoyed. :biggrin-new: And it was our turn to pick up the bill too.

RobJohnson
10-28-2012, 05:49 PM
My gosh. They know they might be in trouble in a few days.

I sorry this "woman" had to spoil your lunch. It sounds like it was very relaxing up to that point.

djones520
10-28-2012, 05:52 PM
Well you can tell her that this enlisted person knows exactly which candidate has his best interests in mind, and it sure ain't Obama.

SaintLouieWoman
10-28-2012, 06:03 PM
Well you can tell her that this enlisted person knows exactly which candidate has his best interests in mind, and it sure ain't Obama.

Thanks, knew she was wrong. It's a good thing she retired and is out of there.

I've worked in sales to the military for years and rarely dealt with the officers. Most of the enlisted tended to be more conservative and definitely patriotic.

If I haven't said it lately, thanks for your service, despite not getting the plum assignments. It's more of a tribute to you that you're still doing a good job despite the cr__.

AmPat
10-28-2012, 07:28 PM
She's obviously an ignorant idiot and I doubt she is or was military. If so, she was one that the military was proud of the day she left.

Elspeth
10-28-2012, 09:12 PM
SLW,

I'm so sorry to hear that a classless clod interfered with your lunch. You were in the right--I'm in San Diego and have yet to meet a marine who loves Obama.

I wish I could send you a nice glass of merlot and a bubblebath.

This is the best I can do:

http://www.makeupandbeyond.com/documents/Bubble-bath-brunette-soaking-wine-glass.jpg

Odysseus
10-28-2012, 11:15 PM
There are a few liberals in the military, and a few retirees, as well, especially among the Judge Advocates. She may have been retired military, but she was obviously a pain to her date, who you said seemed embarrassed by her. I'm sure that when she got back to her computer, she filled a bouncy, but if it's any consolation, her embellishments will make you out to be far more formidable, and your leap from the bushes will be absolutely terrifying. :friendly_wink:

NJCardFan
10-28-2012, 11:34 PM
No cop jumping out of the bushes?
http://joehurrycreations.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/bouncy-balls1.jpg

Apocalypse
10-29-2012, 12:19 AM
SLW, CBS poll;


The poll conducted by the Military Times showed that among the 3,100 people surveyed, 66 percent support Romney compared to 26 percent for Obama.

Just 2 weeks ago.

Far as Europe being better, you should have turn around that and asked why is every European nation then switching to a more privatized healthcare system and getting away from the government run style? And if its so great, why are all but one bankrupt? Not to forget one last question. Why doesn't she live there now?

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 01:55 AM
SLW, CBS poll;



Just 2 weeks ago.

Far as Europe being better, you should have turn around that and asked why is every European nation then switching to a more privatized healthcare system and getting away from the government run style? And if its so great, why are all but one bankrupt? Not to forget one last question. Why doesn't she live there now?

http://votifi.tumblr.com/post/24628011593/who-will-win-the-presidential-vote-among-veterans

txradioguy
10-29-2012, 05:41 AM
http://votifi.tumblr.com/post/24628011593/who-will-win-the-presidential-vote-among-veterans

Military Times (run by Gannett News) has pretty much the same results as the CBS poll.

Reuters is smoking crack with that poll of theirs.

SarasotaRepub
10-29-2012, 08:29 AM
And, I forgot about this, I saw a report on CNN or MSNBC can't remember, that a TON of people in France
buy additional health policies. Now if their "free" system is so good, why are these selling??

I missed this encounter as I had joined the other husband at the docks to look at some boats that
were for sale and he wanted a cig break. I had a feeling the "encounter" might happen as before
we got up the aggressive dyke was watching & listening to us. I guess she felt the need to
educate us like a good widdle ObamaBot...

djones520
10-29-2012, 08:43 AM
And, I forgot about this, I saw a report on CNN or MSNBC can't remember, that a TON of people in France
buy additional health policies. Now if their "free" system is so good, why are these selling??

I missed this encounter as I had joined the other husband at the docks to look at some boats that
were for sale and he wanted a cig break. I had a feeling the "encounter" might happen as before
we got up the aggressive dyke was watching & listening to us. I guess she felt the need to
educate us like a good widdle ObamaBot...

Canada is like that as well. My dad's girlfriend was thrilled when she landed a job that offered private insurance.

SaintLouieWoman
10-29-2012, 11:09 AM
No cop jumping out of the bushes?
http://joehurrycreations.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/bouncy-balls1.jpg

Her girlfriend/date was supposedly a cop in Pinellas County, Florida. She seemed extremely embarassed at the rudeness of her companion.

Probably what bothered her the most was turning my back on her, not willing to waste any more time. I admit to listening to conversations once in a while in a crowded restaurant, but would never butt into their discussions or comment, other than to say to the next table that they had cute little kids as we left (to the parents or grandparents).

djones520
10-29-2012, 11:19 AM
Her girlfriend/date was supposedly a cop in Pinellas County, Florida. She seemed extremely embarassed at the rudeness of her companion.

Probably what bothered her the most was turning my back on her, not willing to waste any more time. I admit to listening to conversations once in a while in a crowded restaurant, but would never butt into their discussions or comment, other than to say to the next table that they had cute little kids as we left (to the parents or grandparents).

Yeah, it's certainly the epitome of rudeness.

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 11:33 AM
Military Times (run by Gannett News) has pretty much the same results as the CBS poll.

Reuters is smoking crack with that poll of theirs.

It would help if the polls were more clinical and less POV. For example:


Although there is little or no data distinguishing active duty military personnel and veterans, there is a contrast in political views among officers and enlisted personnel. Jason Dempsey, a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army and Bob Shapiro have done a fair amount of ground-breaking research into attitudes and trends in the military and offer some of the following analysis:
· 2/3rds of majors and other high-ranking officers describe themselves as conservative
· 32% of enlisted personnel are conservative
· 23% are liberal
· 45% are moderates


This actually is pretty close to national representation, howbeit the demographics are a bit skewed. The nation is more closely divided into thirds conservative, liberal, "moderate (whatever the hell that means)".

I would expect the military to skew a little towards the conservative for a variety of reasons, not inconsequential that the demographics of those who enter the military skew conservative in civilian life. Then you have the deliberate efforts within the military to promote evangelical religion and Republican politics. http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/08/air-force-robert-f-dorr-column-religion-083112/

djones520
10-29-2012, 11:39 AM
Nova, in 11 years I've never once seen anyone promote their religion on me in a conversion attempt. There is hardly anything widespread about any activities like that.

And I like that you assert that there are "deliberate efforts" and then link an article that clearly states that such cases are isolated, and there is clear policy against it.

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 11:39 AM
Her girlfriend/date was supposedly a cop in Pinellas County, Florida. She seemed extremely embarassed at the rudeness of her companion.

Probably what bothered her the most was turning my back on her, not willing to waste any more time. I admit to listening to conversations once in a while in a crowded restaurant, but would never butt into their discussions or comment, other than to say to the next table that they had cute little kids as we left (to the parents or grandparents).

I have been known to say to my companion, "Oh for God's sake, can you hear this garbage this person is going on?" I do reserve that for the most extremes of falsehood or offensiveness, rarely if ever commenting on a matter of opinion.

I can't wait to move back to California. My best friend and I are looking forward to calling a lot of people on their bullshit and offending as many as possible.

Waiter: Do you have any questions?

Nova : Yes. Is the tofu grilled or fried?

W: It's grilled.

N: And are the avocados Haas?

W: Yes.

N: Are the kitchen workers illegal aliens?

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 11:48 AM
Nova, in 11 years I've never once seen anyone promote their religion on me in a conversion attempt. There is hardly anything widespread about any activities like that.

I don't doubt you, but at the same time the MRFF has a lot of source material on its website, justifying its mission and showing the issues and events which have gotten traction or initiated change. Is it possible that there is some reason you were excused from the "illegal command pressure" that Weinstein refers to?

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 11:54 AM
And I like that you assert that there are "deliberate efforts" and then link an article that clearly states that such cases are isolated, and there is clear policy against it.

I said deliberate efforts because I have been following the issues at the Air Force Academy for some time. Academics actually call it "a culture of disregard" and that is why that "clear policy against it" came into being.


From 2005

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/29/Columns/The_Air_Force_Academy.shtml

Capt. MeLinda Morton is a prime example. A chaplain at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Morton has been trying her mightiest to end the force-fed evangelism that is rampant on campus. Rather than thanks, her outspoken defense of the Constitution has gotten her booted from her job and a one-way ticket to exile in Japan - known as "reassignment" in military speak.

Her fight against proselytizing is taking place in Colorado Springs - control central for the most radical elements of the Christian Right. James "tolerance is a homosexual plot" Dobson's Focus on the Family is based there - a concern so large that there is no need to use a street address on a letter. Also nearby is the Officers' Christian Fellowship, an organization whose express purpose is to create "ambassadors for Christ in uniform." Its slogan is: "Christian Officers Exercising Biblical Leadership to Raise up a Godly Military." (That's funny, the Taliban say something very similar.)

There is significant cross-pollination between the local evangelical groups and the Academy, to a point where cadets are reportedly cajoled, harangued and even bullied into being "saved."

Mikey Weinstein, an attorney in Albuquerque, N.M., has been collecting complaints of this nature for more than a year and says he has about 150 of them. Weinstein is a graduate of the Academy, as is his elder son. But when his youngest son, who is a member of the class of 2007, was called a "f--- Jew" and taunted as a Christ killer, Weinstein got involved.

"The Air Force Academy is suffering from a constitutional disease," Weinstein said. "They are trying to tell people whose God is best." He said his complaints have received little more than lip-service.

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 11:56 AM
Nova, in 11 years I've never once seen anyone promote their religion on me in a conversion attempt. There is hardly anything widespread about any activities like that.

And I like that you assert that there are "deliberate efforts" and then link an article that clearly states that such cases are isolated, and there is clear policy against it.

Still — as officials confirmed for me — it was mostly because of Weinstein’s in-your-face activism that Air Force Instruction 1-1, Section 2.11, came into existence Aug. 7.

It’s titled “Government Neutrality Regarding Religion.” It cautions leaders to “avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion.”

This instruction shouldn’t have been necessary.

But now that we have it, everyone should heed it.

It’s only right.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/08/air-force-robert-f-dorr-column-religion-083112/

djones520
10-29-2012, 11:58 AM
I don't doubt you, but at the same time the MRFF has a lot of source material on its website, justifying its mission and showing the issues and events which have gotten traction or initiated change. Is it possible that there is some reason you were excused from the "illegal command pressure" that Weinstein refers to?

Illegal command pressure? Where the hell are these terms coming from? From what that story says, it sounds like the commander was practicing his constitutionally gauranteed right to religion, and was making an event open to the entire unit if they so wanted to come along. Some folks got butthurt because for some reason people can't adults about things like religion, and decided to bitch about it.

I've been stationed a wide variety of units, ranging from small base weather shops to MAJCOM Headquarters, and several things in between. I've worked directly under everything from Captains to 2 Star Generals. I've been involved with Fighter units, Cargo units, and units not directly associated with a flying mission.

The widest extent of any religious expression that i've seen in my career is invocations offered by the Chaplain at the opening of ceremonies, such as Balls, Dining In's, Retirements, etc... There is no pressure to accept the words said in those and us atheists suffer no stigma at all for not saying "Amen" at the end of it.

My supervisor is a devoute Catholic, and he's about as hardcore Air Force as you can get. We've had the occasional discussion about religion, but there has never been any attempt at all resembling conversion. I've had commanders as well who've made their faith known, when getting to know their troops a bit better, but there was never any "command pressure" from any of it.

As many like to state, the military is a reflection of American society in general, and as America has a bunch of loud mouth assholes who feel that someone simply believing in god somehow means their trying to push their values on you, so does the military have to suffer those fools as well.

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 12:27 PM
Illegal command pressure? Where the hell are these terms coming from?

Mikey Weinstein, graduate of the Air Force Academy and father of a graduate of the Air Force Academy.

djones520
10-29-2012, 12:31 PM
Mikey Weinstein, graduate of the Air Force Academy and father of a graduate of the Air Force Academy.

And a douchebag.

You want to talk about fraud waste and abuse, how much money do you think that guy has wasted because he's butt hurt about people believing something differant then him?

Starbuck
10-29-2012, 12:38 PM
Back to the original post:

We have a sister in law who retired from the State Department as a nurse practitioner. And she knows "all about it", too. When pressed, she always reverts to the, "I work for The State Department; I know", position. Yes, Europe is wonderful, we still haven't recovered from the damage Bush did, Republicans lie, Muslims are misunderstood, we get to hear all of it.

But from an unwanted stranger? That's why God gave us ten fingers; so we could give people like her one.:smile-new:

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 12:41 PM
From what that story says, it sounds like the commander was practicing his constitutionally gauranteed right to religion, and was making an event open to the entire unit if they so wanted to come along. Some folks got butthurt because for some reason people can't adults about things like religion, and decided to bitch about it.

While it's surprising that you dismiss the issue, apparently Gen. Schwartz (ret 10-1-2012) did not.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/docs/gen_schwartz_letter_religion_neutralilty.pdf


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/22/13397843-air-force-rules-limit-size-of-tattoos-role-of-gospel?lite
In Aug. 2011, in a victory for trying to extricate religion from military business, the Air Force suspended a course called “Christian Just War Theory” — which had been required for missile officers at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The PowerPoint for the class drew heavily upon Bible passages and Christian imagery to teach morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons. In the class students were taught based on a passage in the Book of Revelations that Jesus Christ is a "mighty warrior" who believed some wars to be just, according to Truthout.com which broke the story.

djones520
10-29-2012, 12:44 PM
While it's surprising that you dismiss the issue, apparently Gen. Schwartz (ret 10-1-2012) did not.

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/docs/gen_schwartz_letter_religion_neutralilty.pdf


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/22/13397843-air-force-rules-limit-size-of-tattoos-role-of-gospel?lite
In Aug. 2011, in a victory for trying to extricate religion from military business, the Air Force suspended a course called “Christian Just War Theory” — which had been required for missile officers at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The PowerPoint for the class drew heavily upon Bible passages and Christian imagery to teach morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons. In the class students were taught based on a passage in the Book of Revelations that Jesus Christ is a "mighty warrior" who believed some wars to be just, according to Truthout.com which broke the story.

Where do you think the pressure came for that, above him, from a guy in a suit, not a uniform. Do you think he would have given two shits about it when he had real things, like bombing the shit out of Al Qaeda, 10% budget cuts, and other real issues to worry about?

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 12:48 PM
And a douchebag.

You want to talk about fraud waste and abuse, how much money do you think that guy has wasted because he's butt hurt about people believing something differant then him?

Interesting that you so casually and caustically dismiss the concerns about the military being used to promote religion. What if your superior promotes a religion which forbids miscegenation? You gonna be "butt hurt" or a "whiny titty baby" (included because both of those terms are faves on DU).

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 12:50 PM
Where do you think the pressure came for that, above him, from a guy in a suit, not a uniform. Do you think he would have given two shits about it when he had real things, like bombing the shit out of Al Qaeda, 10% budget cuts, and other real issues to worry about?

The military is civilian controlled. Your other comments are deflection. Just because you don't mind being evangelized, subtly or not so subtly, doesn't mean that it's supposed to be happening.

djones520
10-29-2012, 12:56 PM
The military is civilian controlled. Your other comments are deflection. Just because you don't mind being evangelized, subtly or not so subtly, doesn't mean that it's supposed to be happening.

What deflection? There is no evangelicalization occuring within the military. We have an administration that is socially engineering the military, as we've seen repeatedly, and you have your standard atheist asshat leading the charge.

It's a non-issue, people making mountains out of mole hills, putting our resources towards things other then our real mission, and it's all bullshit.

When you've got real insight on how it's going in the military I'll take your word for it, but in the mean time blow off on it. I am an atheist, i'm not defending the home team on this one. While I'm acceptent of peoples rights to practice religion, I'm vehemently opposed to efforts to convert. I wouldn't be defending anything were this something that was truly happening.

Novaheart
10-29-2012, 02:07 PM
What deflection? There is no evangelicalization occuring within the military. We have an administration that is socially engineering the military, as we've seen repeatedly, and you have your standard atheist asshat leading the charge.



Define socially engineering the military and when you think it began.

txradioguy
10-29-2012, 02:11 PM
Define socially engineering the military and when you think it began.

Social engineering = Enforcing political correctness...special rights for protected classes forcing the military to accept certain behaviors and policies that are detrimental to good order and discipline and fly in the face of what is needed to be done to engage the enemy and win in combat.

It began in earnest right after the inauguration in 1993.

Retread
10-29-2012, 08:28 PM
[I]Blah, blah, blah.

Q. How can anyone make more posts to try to cloud the issue than novatwit?

A. They can't.


All those posts and not a single shred of meaningful info......

Rockntractor
10-29-2012, 08:41 PM
All those posts and not a single shred of meaningful info......

A 100% perfect record as usual.

Retread
10-29-2012, 09:02 PM
Social engineering = Enforcing political correctness...special rights for protected classes forcing the military to accept certain behaviors and policies that are detrimental to good order and discipline and fly in the face of what is needed to be done to engage the enemy and win in combat.

It began in earnest right after the inauguration in 1993.

It goes like this:

First - it was just illegal.

Next - It was "don't ask, don't tell".

Now - It's not only legal, it's celebrated.

I suggest most of you guys currently in the services get out before they make it mandatory.

Lager
10-29-2012, 09:44 PM
Then you have the deliberate efforts within the military to promote evangelical religion and Republican politics. http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/08/air-force-robert-f-dorr-column-religion-083112/

That's a ridiculous statement, even from you. Whatever may or may not have been going on at the Academy, it is not indicative of the whole Air Force. In over 25 years of both active and reserve service, I have not witnessed anything resembling pressure or heavy handed promotion of any religious beliefs. Weinstein's "crusade" is well known here in Colorado, and since it first surfaced, I've asked enlisted and officers alike if they've experienced anything close to what he is alluding to. Nada. I've read some of the claims Weinstein makes, and although I wouldn't call him an outright liar, I feel comfortable saying he's quite prone to hyperbole. There may be isolated cases that he's cherry picking and blowing up, but they are not rampant, as he would like his audience to believe. It fits right in with the liberal mindset though, similar to the argument that having Rush Limbaugh on AFN is "brainwashing" the troops.

I've run across evangelicals in the military who've attempted to persuade me to their cause, but with no more aggressiveness or in no larger numbers than I've encountered in the civilian world. And if self-reliance, a sense of duty and personal responsibility are also associated with "republican politics", then it's by accident and not by design. I'd get one or two more sources than Mikey before I'd cement my opinion on this.