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View Full Version : FALLING ON PRINCIPLE



Bailey
11-05-2012, 05:31 PM
http://youtu.be/wPjBXufufUU

Retread
11-05-2012, 07:32 PM
Thanks for that Bailey. It needs to ne played in every living room tonight.

m00
11-05-2012, 07:58 PM
"If what you love are the principles of limited government, personal freedom coupled with personal responsibility and a life where you can simply be left alone, then this election is not value neutral. Both Romney and Obama may in fact be both tax and spend liberals in your eyes, but only one of these two men, that will become president, has placed a marker by selecting a running mate with a realistic plan with entitlement reform that can return us to fiscal sanity..."

This is a quote from the video... I want everyone to read that. And then re-read it.

Yes, I love the principles of limited government, personal freedom, and a life where I can simply be left alone. Okay, I'm with him so far. So the argument is that I should vote for Romney because he has a running mate, and this running mate has a plan for entitlement reform, which could bring us back 1 of the 3 principles I love. Keep in mind the Vice Presidency has pretty much only one or two official duties, and neither of them are "implementing plans."

So I should vote for Romney because Ryan, his running mate, gets a 33% grade. Presumably Romney himself gets a 0% grade, because otherwise the dude in the video would have lead with this. Can anyone really tell me that's a compelling argument?

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:01 PM
"If what you love are the principles of limited government, personal freedom coupled with personal responsibility and a life where you can simply be left alone, then this election is not value neutral. Both Romney and Obama may in fact be both tax and spend liberals in your eyes, but only one of these two men, that will become president, has placed a marker by selecting a running mate with a realistic plan with entitlement reform that can return us to fiscal sanity..."

This is a quote from the video... I want everyone to read that. And then re-read it.

Yes, I love the principles of limited government, personal freedom, and a life where I can simply be left alone. Okay, I'm with him so far. So the argument is that I should vote for Romney because he has a running mate, and this running mate has a plan for entitlement reform, which could bring us back 1 of the 3 principles I love. Keep in mind the Vice Presidency has pretty much only one or two official duties, and neither of them are "implementing plans."

So I should vote for Romney because Ryan, running mate, gets a 33% grade. Can anyone really tell me that's a compelling argument?

Like the man said either one of those men will be prez, which one is more against your principles? I don't think Ryan is the type just to sit in the corner and do nothing, I am sure his ideas will be acted on.

m00
11-05-2012, 08:13 PM
Like the man said either one of those men will be prez, which one is more against your principles? I don't think Ryan is the type just to sit in the corner and do nothing, I am sure his ideas will be acted on.

Out of curiosity, did you read what I wrote? I mean, really. Think about what I said. I'm not a registered Republican by the way, I'm a free moral agent. I completely agree with many of the "planks" of the Republican platform, but I have rarely seen those planks adhered to, either in Congress or the White House. His crappy personal life aside, I think in my lifetime Gingrich was the only Republican leader who actually stuck to the entire platform.

So it's the job of the Romney campaign to convince me, a free moral agent, to vote for their candidate. Not to vote against "the other guy." I watched all the primary debates, and the debates with Obama, as well as the VP debates. I'm a bit of a political junkie here, and I closely followed the primaries in general. I'm simply not impressed by Romney. I don't think that's my fault. I think that's Romney's fault, and the fault of the RNC or whomever is giving him crappy advice. It's not like my desires in a candidate are unreasonable here.

I read on this board "even a ham sandwich would be better than Obama." If you want to vote for a ham sandwich, that's your businesses. All I ask is for a candidate who sounds serious on personal freedoms, fiscal responsibility, and isn't hell-bent on spending billions of dollars to spread our values to people who have no inclination or ability or adopt them. Oh, and isn't beholden to the captains of shady industries (banking industry, insurance industry, wall-street, for-profit prisons, etc).

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:19 PM
Out of curiosity, did you read what I wrote? I mean, really. Think about what I said. I'm not a registered Republican by the way, I'm a free moral agent. I completely agree with many of the "planks" of the Republican platform, but I have rarely seen those planks adhered to, either in Congress or the White House. His crappy personal life aside, I think in my lifetime Gingrich was the only Republican leader who actually stuck to the entire platform.

So it's the job of the Romney campaign to convince me, a free moral agent, to vote for their candidate. Not to vote against "the other guy." I watched all the primary debates, and the debates with Obama, as well as the VP debates. I'm a bit of a political junkie here, and I closely followed the primaries in general. I'm simply not impressed by Romney. I don't think that's my fault. I think that's Romney's fault, and the fault of the RNC or whomever is giving him crappy advice. It's not like my desires in a candidate are unreasonable here.

I read on this board "even a ham sandwich would be better than Obama." If you want to vote for a ham sandwich, that's your businesses. All I ask is for a candidate who sounds serious on personal freedoms, fiscal responsibility, and isn't hell-bent on spending billions of dollars to spread our values to people who have no inclination or ability or adopt them. Oh, and isn't beholden to the captains of shady industries (banking industry, insurance industry, wall-street, for-profit prisons, etc).

Fair enough but if obama wins and you had the power to kick him out I don't think you have a right to complain because of your inaction. We aren't talking about the lesser of two evils here, its ONE big evil vs a man who isn't 100% behind you. (btw Romney isn't the equivalent of a ham sandwich). Oh and its your fault not Romney's, it isn't his fault his name isn't Ron Paul.

Rockntractor
11-05-2012, 08:20 PM
Out of curiosity, did you read what I wrote? I mean, really. Think about what I said. I'm not a registered Republican by the way, I'm a free moral agent. I completely agree with many of the "planks" of the Republican platform, but I have rarely seen those planks adhered to, either in Congress or the White House. His crappy personal life aside, I think in my lifetime Gingrich was the only Republican leader who actually stuck to the entire platform.

So it's the job of the Romney campaign to convince me, a free moral agent, to vote for their candidate. Not to vote against "the other guy." I watched all the primary debates, and the debates with Obama, as well as the VP debates. I'm a bit of a political junkie here, and I closely followed the primaries in general. I'm simply not impressed by Romney. I don't think that's my fault. I think that's Romney's fault, and the fault of the RNC or whomever is giving him crappy advice. It's not like my desires in a candidate are unreasonable here.

I read on this board "even a ham sandwich would be better than Obama." If you want to vote for a ham sandwich, that's your businesses. All I ask is for a candidate who sounds serious on personal freedoms, fiscal responsibility, and isn't hell-bent on spending billions of dollars to spread our values to people who have no inclination or ability or adopt them. Oh, and isn't beholden to the captains of shady industries (banking industry, insurance industry, wall-street, for-profit prisons, etc).

I'm glad you live in Montreal, it is a perfect place for you and out of concern for others like you I think you should encourage as many of them as possible to move there with you.

m00
11-05-2012, 08:24 PM
Oh and its your fault not Romney's, it isn't his fault his name isn't Ron Paul.

Oh please this is such a straw man and you know it. Has Romney ever talked about personal freedom in a speech? I haven't seen it.

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:25 PM
What I really mean is that people like Melon lube and Moo won't vote for Romney because he isn't Ron Paul, plain and simple really. You see if Ron paul had won the nomination (no really stop laughing) I'd back him up 100% because he mostly believes in what I believe in. Not just because he has a R next to his name.

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:26 PM
Oh please this is such a straw man and you know it. Has Romney ever talked about personal freedom in a speech? I haven't seen it.

No because the number one thing to talk about is you know JOBS. I don't think Romney has backed any freedom taking lately.

m00
11-05-2012, 08:27 PM
I'm glad you live in Montreal, it is a perfect place for you and out of concern for others like you I think you should encourage as many of them as possible to move there with you.

Hey, I get to cast an absentee ballot in Georgia OR I get to walk into an embassy. Living abroad doesn't mean I can't vote. Actually if more Americans lived abroad, I think more people would realize how retarded American politics is. No, Obama is not a socialist... he's a corporatist. For example.

But seriously, the only people whose vote actually matters are people who live in Ohio, Florida, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and one or two others.

m00
11-05-2012, 08:30 PM
What I really mean is that people like Melon lube and Moo won't vote for Romney because he isn't Ron Paul, plain and simple really

I've refuted this a number of times. If you want to think that I engage in faith-based politics (like I'm in some sort of Paul cult) go right ahead, if it makes your world simpler.

And actually... let me flip this question around.


You see if Ron paul had won the nomination (no really stop laughing) I'd back him up 100% because he mostly believes in what I believe in.

If Romney cares about my vote, why hasn't he reached out to Ron Paul supporters (lets just say "voters that care a lot about personal freedoms").

It's simple.

Because he either doesn't care about my vote, or doesn't believe in things that I believe in.

So why should I vote for him?

Rockntractor
11-05-2012, 08:31 PM
What I really mean is that people like Melon lube and Moo won't vote for Romney because he isn't Ron Paul, plain and simple really. You see if Ron paul had won the nomination (no really stop laughing) I'd back him up 100% because he mostly believes in what I believe in. Not just because he has a R next to his name.

If Ron Paul got the nomination both Moo and Lube would immediately drop them because by their very popularity they would become suspect and could no longer be trusted.

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:31 PM
I've refuted this a number of times. If you want to think that I engage in faith-based politics (like I'm in some sort of Paul cult) go right ahead, if it makes your world simpler.

So if Ron Paul was on the Republican ticket you'd not vote for him?

JB
11-05-2012, 08:32 PM
All I ask is for a candidate who sounds serious on personal freedoms, fiscal responsibility, and isn't hell-bent on spending billions of dollars to spread our values to people who have no inclination or ability or adopt them. Oh, and isn't beholden to the captains of shady industries (banking industry, insurance industry, wall-street, for-profit prisons, etc).Was there someone running that met those conditions?

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:33 PM
Was there someone running that met those conditions?

Funny that sounds like someone who was in the primary, I wonder who?

Zeus
11-05-2012, 08:34 PM
It's rather simple.

Ron Paul , Gary Johnson , Newt Gingrich didn't make the cut. The election is between Romney & Obama and only 1 can/will win.

Self determination is one of the most sacred rights and as part of that determination is the right to choose our government Representatives.

self determination or self subrogation. A time to choose.

JB
11-05-2012, 08:37 PM
So why should I vote for him?Because Rand Paul, who is probably closest to what you're looking for, is backing and campaigning for Romney.

But like I told the other guy on here...I prefer that you don't vote for Romney.

m00
11-05-2012, 08:37 PM
No because the number one thing to talk about is you know JOBS.

I have a job.

I care about personal freedoms, so I can actually not feel like an assumed criminal walking around the United States as a US citizen.

I want government to leave me alone. I want government to leave my property alone. Unless it has a warrant, that it presents to me when it is served. Does this actually sound like a Romney administration to you?

m00
11-05-2012, 08:37 PM
Was there someone running that met those conditions?

3 or 4.

m00
11-05-2012, 08:40 PM
If Ron Paul got the nomination both Moo and Lube would immediately drop them because by their very popularity they would become suspect and could no longer be trusted.

I don't know why you keep repeating lies. Maybe it's fun for you. But I've been on threads where I told you a long list of Republicans that meant my requirements. Paul happens to be on this list, yes. So does Gingrich, Cain, and others.

Now you are going to tell me "but none of them got the nomination" and fair enough. But if Romney isn't going to at all speak to the values I hold dear (aka work in the language of other candidates into his stump speech) then he isn't serious about those ideals.

Bailey
11-05-2012, 08:45 PM
I have a job.

I care about personal freedoms, so I can actually not feel like an assumed criminal walking around the United States as a US citizen.

I want government to leave me alone. I want government to leave my property alone. Unless it has a warrant, that it presents to me when it is served. Does this actually sound like a Romney administration to you?

I never heard Romney (show me a video if i am wrong) say he was going to curtail freedoms. Matter of fact where do you feel like a criminal walking the streets? You live and work in Canada? Hell you have less freedom of speech there then here. Forget about gun ownership, freedoms for that have been raising for years.

m00
11-05-2012, 09:42 PM
I never heard Romney (show me a video if i am wrong) say he was going to curtail freedoms.

Nobody says this, but it's the default stance of all politicians. The only politicians who don't, are the ones who at least talk about the importance of civil liberty. Same with the constitution.


Matter of fact where do you feel like a criminal walking the streets?

Internal checkpoints miles from any border, drunk driving checkpoints, coming out of a bar (not going to my car), anywhere near a national monument, at an airport... the list goes on.


You live and work in Canada? Hell you have less freedom of speech there then here.

Of all the countries I've lived, and some of them are just blatantly socialist, I've felt in the US I've had the fewest civil liberties. Just my experience. Take it or leave it.