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Sonnabend
10-03-2008, 07:08 AM
14 lies. (http://minx.cc/?post=274757)

Biden's 14 Lies

Fresh from the McCain people.

JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

PoliCon
10-03-2008, 09:57 AM
And the press is covering this where?

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 10:24 AM
The number that he threw out several times that baffled me was.....

Employers pay an average of $12,000 per year for each employees health insurance. An individual health policy doesn't cost that much. There is no way that group coverage is that expensive.

We had a good time watching the debate. Me working in insurance and her in banking. My wife said she didn't see where Obama was that bad before the debate. Then Biden opened his trap saying that under Obama's plan that bankruptcy court would be able to not only adjust your interest rate but also your principle. I told her welcome to socialist Obamastan.

Cold Warrior
10-03-2008, 10:35 AM
The number that he threw out several times that baffled me was.....

Employers pay an average of $12,000 per year for each employees health insurance. An individual health policy doesn't cost that much. There is no way that group coverage is that expensive.

We had a good time watching the debate. Me working in insurance and her in banking. My wife said she didn't see where Obama was that bad before the debate. Then Biden opened his trap saying that under Obama's plan that bankruptcy court would be able to not only adjust your interest rate but also your principle. I told her welcome to socialist Obamastan.

I'm not sure either. In 2005 the cost was $2.59 per employee hour (http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm030808oth.cfm). At 2080 hours per year (the number includes all holidays and vacation days) that would be an employer cost of $5387. Assuming it's risen to even $3.25 per employee hour, the annual cost, $6760, would still be well short of Biden's $12000 number.

enslaved1
10-03-2008, 10:38 AM
And the press is covering this where?

You're funny.

I wondered how far spun all those statements were. Do we have any links to the votes and the bills though?

LibraryLady
10-03-2008, 10:43 AM
Sonnabend, good minds run together
I posted this last night http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=5851&highlight=lies

I think it originates from John McCain.com

http://www.johnmccain.com/McCainReport/Read.aspx?guid=343ba934-6417-4b65-ac9e-92348acb5e97

Phillygirl
10-03-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm not sure either. In 2005 the cost was $2.59 per employee hour (http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm030808oth.cfm). At 2080 hours per year (the number includes all holidays and vacation days) that would be an employer cost of $5387. Assuming it's risen to even $3.25 per employee hour, the annual cost, $6760, would still be well short of Biden's $12000 number.

I just checked ours and the annual cost for family, plus dental, is $7984.80.

Cold Warrior
10-03-2008, 11:17 AM
I just checked ours and the annual cost for family, plus dental, is $7984.80.

Yikes! :eek: I hadn't realized it was that much. Although, when I COBRA'd in 2001 I ended up paying around $600 per month for individual medical and dental.

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 11:18 AM
I just checked ours and the annual cost for family, plus dental, is $7984.80.

Is that under a group plan or individual?

LibraryLady
10-03-2008, 11:20 AM
Biden's not so hot on the Constitution

Biden gets veep role wrong (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/03/biden-gets-veep-role-wrong/)



Democratic vice presidential nominee Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. appeared to incorrectly outline the constitutional role of the job he's seeking in Thursday's debate.

In attacking Vice President Dick Cheney, Mr. Biden said the vice president's only role is to support the president and to preside over the Senate "only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit."

The Constitution, though, actually says the vice president is always president of the Senate and legal scholars say he has the right to preside at any time. Early vice presidents, such as Thomas Jefferson, actively exercised that role, the vice president still keeps offices at the Capitol, and scholars say it wasn't until the middle of the 20th century that the vice president had an office at the executive office building.

The president pro tempore, usually the senior senator from the majority party, takes over only when the vice president is absent. In recent practice, as the vice president has taken a bigger role in the executive, that's meant the Senate operates almost all of the time without the vice president in the chair.

The Obama campaign didn't return a message for comment left late Thursday, after the debate.

For her part Republican vice presidential nominee Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin said she plans to take the vice president's role of president of the Senate seriously.

"I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are," she said.

Mr. Biden, who's been in the Senate for three decades, also mistakenly stated that the executive branch is defined in Article I of the Constitution. In fact, Article I describes the legislature, while Article II lays out the executive.

LibraryLady
10-03-2008, 11:24 AM
The number that he threw out several times that baffled me was.....

Employers pay an average of $12,000 per year for each employees health insurance. An individual health policy doesn't cost that much. There is no way that group coverage is that expensive.


I really don't understand any of this. I have been spoiled with military health insurance for 35 years


(CBS) It's one of the most explosive and important political charges of the election: "He wants to tax your health benefits," Barack Obama said.

Obama's charge was that that John McCain wants to tax the health insurance benefits Americans buy through employers, CBS News correspondent Wyatt Andrews reports.

"That's a $3.6 trillion tax potentially increase on middle class families," Obama said. "That will eventually leave tens of millions of you paying higher taxes."

John McCain wants a multi-trillion dollar tax on the middle class? Here are the facts.

Obama has the tax part correct, but the impact on the middle class is exaggerated - most people will see tax cuts.

McCain has proposed to end one of the largest tax breaks in the entire economy. Some 60 million Americans buy health insurance thru employers tax-free, and McCain would indeed begin to tax the value of the benefit.

However McCain also proposes to give the money back as a tax credit, $2,500 for individuals, $5,000 for families.

"Let's give them a $5,000 refundable tax credit to go out and get the health insurance of their choice," McCain said.

"It's mostly a tax break," said Len Burman of the Tax Policy Center.

The non-partisan tax policy center says except for the very richest Americans, most people buying insurance will see a tax cut.


"Families at all income levels would pay lower taxes, at least on average," said Burman. "On average, is about a $1,200 tax cut in 2009."

LibraryLady
10-03-2008, 11:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FseX_3mT4

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 11:35 AM
I really don't understand any of this. I have been spoiled with military health insurance for 35 years

Let's just say nobody pays $1000 a month for group coverage. If anyone pays $1000 a month for an individual plan, they're either old and in bad health or just plain stupid.

Phillygirl
10-03-2008, 11:39 AM
Is that under a group plan or individual?

Group. The cost for the individuals is $364 a month, for family it is $665 a month. It's a pretty decent plan as far as I can tell, although I don't use it much. We only have 1 person on the family plan here though, everyone else is individual.

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 11:51 AM
Group. The cost for the individuals is $364 a month, for family it is $665 a month. It's a pretty decent plan as far as I can tell, although I don't use it much. We only have 1 person on the family plan here though, everyone else is individual.

That's a long way from $12,000 per year.

Cold Warrior
10-03-2008, 11:57 AM
That's a long way from $12,000 per year.

That's the employee cost. If you add in the employer costs that Philly noted, $7984.80 per annum, you begin to get to the $12000 per year number. As I noted, in 2001 the COBRA cost, which I believe is supposed to be the employer cost plus the employee costs for the existing group policy, was $7200 per year.

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 12:01 PM
That's the employee cost. If you add in the employer costs that Philly noted, $7984.80 per annum, you begin to get to the $12000 per year number. As I noted, in 2001 the COBRA cost, which I believe is supposed to be the employer cost plus the employee costs for the existing group policy, was $7200 per year.

There is no way health insurance on a relaively healthy person, much less under a group plan, costs $12,000 per person per year.

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 12:08 PM
Quote Summary





State, ZIP: GA , 31790 Effective Date: 10/04/2008 Primary: Male , 43 , Preferred Smoker




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Plan Details
Plan: OneDeductible PPO
Network: GWH
Deductible: $1,100
Dental: Plus
Coinsurance Percentage: 80%
Coinsurance Out-of-Pocket: $2,000
Lifetime Maximum: $8,000,000
Office Copay: None
Initial Rate Guarantee: 12months
Dental-Vision Discount Plan: Yes
Maternity Coverage No Coverage
Premium Details
Primary: $434.56
Lifetime Maximum: $7.00
SuiteSolutions (Secure: $2,500) $22.95
Dental: $47.10
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HAA Membership Fee (monthly):2 $4.00
Monthly Premium:1 $525.56
One-Time Processing Fee: $20.00
Initial Payment: $545.5

Cold Warrior
10-03-2008, 12:08 PM
There is no way health insurance on a relaively healthy person, much less under a group plan, costs $12,000 per person per year.

I don't know. Those are the numbers. If you look at the link in my original post, you'll note it goes to a major insurance company's own study. I was a bit surprised at Philly's employer numbers, but given the dramatic rise in health care costs, they're certainly possible. Using her numbers, if you add in the employee contribution, you get $12,352 (364*12 + 7984).

Phillygirl
10-03-2008, 12:10 PM
That's the employee cost. If you add in the employer costs that Philly noted, $7984.80 per annum, you begin to get to the $12000 per year number. As I noted, in 2001 the COBRA cost, which I believe is supposed to be the employer cost plus the employee costs for the existing group policy, was $7200 per year.

The costs I noted were total employer costs. The $7980 is a far cry from the $12,000 per year. Under McCain's plan, those costs would be taxable to the employee. Assuming that the employee is in a 20% tax bracket, that would cost the employee $1596. McCain's plan would give a $5,000 tax credit to be used towards this, so obviously there would be no net out of pocket for the employee that continues to have employer coverage.

The employer, on the other hand, would now have to pay payroll taxes on this amount, thereby theoretically increasing the SS benefit for that employee.

Odysseus
10-03-2008, 12:11 PM
Fresh from the McCain people. (http://community.mccainspace.com/kickapps/_Joe-Bidens-14-Lies-in-the-Debate/BLOG/112487/41158.html)

JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

Posted by: Ace at 10:45 PM

LibraryLady
10-03-2008, 12:13 PM
sorry but you're the third one to find this!:D

Cold Warrior
10-03-2008, 12:14 PM
The costs I noted were total employer costs. The $7980 is a far cry from the $12,000 per year. Under McCain's plan, those costs would be taxable to the employee. Assuming that the employee is in a 20% tax bracket, that would cost the employee $1596. McCain's plan would give a $5,000 tax credit to be used towards this, so obviously there would be no net out of pocket for the employee that continues to have employer coverage.

The employer, on the other hand, would now have to pay payroll taxes on this amount, thereby theoretically increasing the SS benefit for that employee.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood the series of posts.

Zathras
10-03-2008, 12:14 PM
Dupe (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=5863)

Damn minimum character rule...there, happy now? :)

PoliCon
10-03-2008, 12:28 PM
The costs I noted were total employer costs. The $7980 is a far cry from the $12,000 per year. Under McCain's plan, those costs would be taxable to the employee. Assuming that the employee is in a 20% tax bracket, that would cost the employee $1596. McCain's plan would give a $5,000 tax credit to be used towards this, so obviously there would be no net out of pocket for the employee that continues to have employer coverage.

The employer, on the other hand, would now have to pay payroll taxes on this amount, thereby theoretically increasing the SS benefit for that employee.DON'T YOU DARE CONFUSE THE ISSUE WITH FACTS!!:mad:

Phillygirl
10-03-2008, 12:50 PM
Ah, sorry I misunderstood the series of posts.

Probably a bit unclear. We pay 100% of the employee costs for an individual. The employee pays 100% of any coverage beyond that.

Zeus
10-03-2008, 12:52 PM
Company pays about $850/Mo, Employee for family coverage pays about $225/Mo. Thats no deductable and a $40 copay. Employee only pays Nada.

Odysseus
10-03-2008, 01:46 PM
sorry but you're the third one to find this!:D

Mea Culpa. :o

SaintLouieWoman
10-03-2008, 02:23 PM
I just checked ours and the annual cost for family, plus dental, is $7984.80.

All these rates are going to vary widely, depending on the size of the company. My company has approximately 500 employees in 4 states. The employees supposedly pay half. I just computed that I pay $1225 a year for my health insurance and dental. The rates are higher for families, but don't have those numbers.

$12,000 is way high, unless it's for a small firm with high risk employees that never shops their insurance plan and gets it from a relative who's trying to get maximum commission. :rolleyes:

LibraryLady
10-03-2008, 02:54 PM
Trivial but there's more;


BIDEN: Can I respond? Look, all you have to do is go down Union Street with me in Wilmington or go to Katie’s Restaurant or walk into Home Depot with me where I spend a lot of time

Katie's restaurant went out of business — during the Clinton Administration

Rebel Yell
10-03-2008, 03:43 PM
Trivial but there's more;


Katie's restaurant went out of business — during the Clinton Administration

Perhaps he's talking to the street people who sleep there at night?:confused:

BadCat
10-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Where is the big surprise in this?

He's a Dimocrat.

If his mouth is open, he's lying.

Zathras
10-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Where is the big surprise in this?

He's a Dimocrat.

If his mouth is open, he's lying.

Hell, if his mouth is closed it's a good bet he's lying too.

MrsSmith
10-04-2008, 05:29 PM
Perhaps Biden only checked with BCBS. The last year Mr Smith's college had their group health insurance, total cost was just over $1000 a month for family coverage. It was nothing great, either, $1000 deductible, no prescription coverage, no co-pay for doctor's visits, nothing more than standard insurance. I don't recall all the figures, but I was completely unimpressed. Mr Smith stayed on my PPO, with lower deductible, $25 co-pay for doctor's visits, and a total cost of about $600 a month. (Total, mine and my employer, at least according to the info sheet I get every year.)

PoliCon
10-05-2008, 09:51 PM
Mea Culpa. :odamn straight it's your fault!! ;) Yes I know a LITTLE latin :)

Zeus
10-05-2008, 10:38 PM
Ya'lls figures are skewed low because you aren't factoring in deductables & copay figures. Sure deductables and copay are moot if you don't use your insurance but still need to be expensed to get true costs.

PoliCon
10-05-2008, 10:43 PM
You know what my insurance and medical expenses are each year? ZERO - aside from allergy medicine that I now have to sign for since here in America - you have to prove you're not running a meth lab before you can buy anything with Pseudoephedrine in it.

LibraryLady
10-06-2008, 12:44 AM
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c12/dtharman/Obama/mrz100608dAPR.jpg