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Elspeth
10-31-2014, 10:07 PM
Post-birth abortion? Isn't that just plain murder--even if you're pro-abortion?

TRENDING: More college students support post-birth abortion
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/19896/

A trend seen by prolife activists that frequently engage college students on campuses nationwide is the growing acceptance of post-birth abortion, or killing the infant after he or she is born, campus prolife outreach leaders tell The College Fix.

Anecdotal evidence by leaders of prolife groups such as Created Equal and Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust said in interviews that not only do they see more college students willing to say they support post-birth abortion, but some students even suggest children up to 4 or 5-years-old can also be killed, because they are not yet “self aware.”

“We encounter people who think it is morally acceptable to kill babies after birth on a regular basis at almost every campus we visit,” said Mark Harrington, director of Created Equal. “While this viewpoint is still seen as shocking by most people, it is becoming increasingly popular.”

Campuses where the high school, college students, local activists and staff members of Created Equal have encountered this opinion include Purdue, University of Minnesota, and University of Central Florida. And at Ohio State earlier this year, the group captured a debate on video between one of its members and an older woman on campus who defended infanticide.

“This is the whole problem with devaluing human life at any stage—it will naturally grow to include other groups of humans; in this case, born humans as well as preborn humans,” Harrington said. “[I] talked with one young man at the University of Minnesota who thought it was alright to kill children if they were under the age of 5 years old, as he did not consider them persons until that age.”

Kristina Garza, spokeswoman for Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, a prolife organization that often sets up anti-abortion displays on campuses along the West Coast, said her group also frequently encounters college students who accept infanticide.

“For those who are firmly for abortion, because they understand it kills a human being, it’s very easy for them to accept killing a human being after birth,” Garza said. “There is this notion that is common on campus, that it’s OK to kill babies because somehow we don’t become human until we are self aware.”

“A common number that is going around is 4 years old,” she adds.

As for the trend, Garza said there’s an explanation for it. For one, the arguments put forth by Peter Singer and other philosophers who support infanticide are given as reading assignments to college students.

Singer wrote in 1979 that “human babies are not born self-aware, or capable of grasping that they exist over time. They are not persons … [therefore] the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee.”

“He has been saying things like this since the 70s, but I think it has been more recently that this type of ideology is being promoted on college campuses,” Garza said. “When he said this stuff, there was a very select few who accepted it. But nowadays, we have become so desensitized, and college students lacking in a moral fiber easily accept this kind of strange ideology.”....

jediab
11-02-2014, 08:24 PM
When you let someone decide who is worthy of living, you invite genocide. Most of these despicable pissants share the same political and ideological beliefs with many of the mass murderers from the past 100 years.

Lanie
11-02-2014, 10:17 PM
This is one of the many reasons that I had to stop supporting abortion rights. It's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons. People are getting to where they don't know where to draw the line. Maybe the line should just be drawn at the beginning?

Where do people get the idea that little kids aren't people yet or not self-aware? I was very self-aware by the time I was three years old. I even have flashbacks to being in my high chair and of wearing a dress in which at the oldest, I was one year old. I think the "experts" say one's memories can't go back that far, but mine do. Kids are adorable when they're showing self-awareness, curiosity about how something works, and other things. They're all traits that show they are people. Actually, having a body full of organs show they're people. This is absurd.

Elspeth
11-03-2014, 01:19 PM
When you let someone decide who is worthy of living, you invite genocide. Most of these despicable pissants share the same political and ideological beliefs with many of the mass murderers from the past 100 years.

Exactly. You said it in a nutshell.

noonwitch
11-03-2014, 02:35 PM
My mom had two handicapped younger brothers. One is deaf, the other had cp and was developmentally disabled (but he had a career at Ford-first in groundskeeping, later in packaging).


One of her former coworkers once told her that if she had been the mother, she would have left the one with CP to the wolves, like the ancients did.

Hawkgirl
11-03-2014, 09:40 PM
These college kids are adopting the ideology of their professors...it's so important to choose the right education for your kids...

Articulate_Ape
11-04-2014, 03:51 AM
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that the women (couples) who have abortions are perhaps the ones we would rather didn't reproduce anyway? Would we rather they be passing their political views on to the next generation? I know that sounds cold, but from what I have seen of the way God operates, cold is not outside the realm of possibilties.

I'm just sayin'

Articulate_Ape
11-04-2014, 04:03 AM
BTW, regarding the article in the OP, all I can say is that "anecdotal evidence" is a polite way to say "no evidence" based on my experience. It seems to me that in this age of video phones, that to make such an assertion without video or at least audio to back it up really should set off anyone's Bullshit Meter. I think we are talking about a story that, at best, is based on exaggeration and at worst is outright false.

Hard to say without any evidence, dontcha think?

linda22003
11-04-2014, 10:52 AM
Ape's got it right in that last post. As usual.

DumbAss Tanker
11-04-2014, 11:07 AM
If we legitimize killing people who aren't self-aware, then the Democrats are in real trouble.

Seriously, though, this is exactly how the Nazi eugenicists sold wholesale state-selected euthanasia of 'Defectives' as a legitimate social program, and once it was accepted, it was a relatively short trip to genocide for them by just moving the goalposts on what was considered 'Genetically defective.'

Rockntractor
11-04-2014, 11:19 AM
Ape's got it right in that last post. As usual.

This one is a matter of trick wording to idiot kids, like when they asked if the pollutant dihydrogen monoxide should be curbed, no one actually thinks water should be eliminated and there are very few that would think a baby should be killed.

Sent from the barnyard using Tapatalk

Lanie
11-04-2014, 11:24 AM
These college kids are adopting the ideology of their professors...it's so important to choose the right education for your kids...

The professors aren't the only problem. There are activist groups, usually your worst kind on college campuses.

Lanie
11-04-2014, 11:26 AM
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that the women (couples) who have abortions are perhaps the ones we would rather didn't reproduce anyway? Would we rather they be passing their political views on to the next generation? I know that sounds cold, but from what I have seen of the way God operates, cold is not outside the realm of possibilties.

I'm just sayin'

But if conservatives support abortion for that reason, then you can't say any of them are pro-life anymore.

BTW, being liberal doesn't equal not promoting child birth. I read a book once in college from a former black panther who said that they were encouraged to have children to pass the ideology of the revolution to.

Dan D. Doty
11-06-2014, 03:30 PM
If we legitimize killing people who aren't self-aware, then the Democrats are in real trouble.

Seriously, though, this is exactly how the Nazi eugenicists sold wholesale state-selected euthanasia of 'Defectives' as a legitimate social program, and once it was accepted, it was a relatively short trip to genocide for them by just moving the goalposts on what was considered 'Genetically defective.'

You're right Tanker.

The Nazis started with the disabled ( both mental and physical) , telling students at the time that these people didn't have a life worth living and their existence was a burden on the State and Society. The Nazis used the disabled to find ways to kill large groups of people in the cheapest , quickest way possible ( gassing, starvation, exposer to the elements, brutal forced labor) and like Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and Political Prisoners; Many people who were forced to wear the black triangle.

Elspeth
01-12-2015, 02:59 PM
BTW, regarding the article in the OP, all I can say is that "anecdotal evidence" is a polite way to say "no evidence" based on my experience. It seems to me that in this age of video phones, that to make such an assertion without video or at least audio to back it up really should set off anyone's Bullshit Meter. I think we are talking about a story that, at best, is based on exaggeration and at worst is outright false.

Hard to say without any evidence, dontcha think?

That was a common criticism of the article. Here is a follow-up:


UPDATE: More proof that more college students support post-birth abortion
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/20748/

...Although no official study or poll has been conducted on this issue, Mark Harrington, director of Created Equal, and Kristina Garza, director of campus outreach for Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, speak with college students about abortion on a regular basis and find that more young people than ever before are willing to admit they support post-birth abortion.

In response to those who questioned the experiences of these pro-life campus advocates, The College Fix returned to the groups’ leaders to get their take on the notion that it was all too outlandish to believe.

In recent interviews, they not only stood behind their assessment, but provided further details to their original claims to help prove it....

...Partial transcripts (http://www.survivors.la/blog/2015/1/3/so-youre-ok-with-killing-children) from conversations between Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust team members and college students in recent months reveal the mindset can be found in young people.

On Dec. 3, 2014, at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Survivor team member Sam Riley talked with a student who said he supported the “choice of the intellectual human.”

He said that “an intellectual human is a 5-, 6- or 7-year-old. They don’t know anything until 5, 6 or 7 years old.” When asked whether it was permissible to kill 2, 3, and 4-year-olds, he said: “Yes, under that criteria, I guess it would be ok.”

On Oct. 15, 2014, at Golden West College in Huntington Beach, Calif., a student admitted to Survivor team member Josh Cummings that a fetus is a human fetus. When asked when it was okay to kill a defenseless human life, the student said, “many times.” Cummings then asked the student whether a mother could drown her 2-year-old in the bathtub if she couldn’t afford to take care of it. “Yes, absolutely,” the student responded.

On Dec. 10, 2014, at Pomona College in Claremont, Calif., Survivor team member Lizzy Riley talked to a student who called himself a “utilitarian.” He said that if abortion were legal in India then people would not be forced to kill or abandon their baby girls. The situation now, he said, makes it necessary to kill these girls.

On Oct. 13 and 14, 2014, at UC San Diego, Lizzy Riley talked to three or four people who exhibited this utilitarian mindset, saying they had no problem with killing a 1- or 2-month-old. They admitted this after being shown there is no substantial biological difference between a 7-month fetus and a 2-month-old.

“Students wouldn’t be able to articulate where they learned it, but the ideology is so ingrained in them that they don’t even question it,” Lizzy Riley told The College Fix. “Look at where the slippery slope leads. If you’re casually pro-choice, at some point, you’re going to have to defend killing children after birth.”

After The College Fix published its original article, titled “Trending: More college students support post-birth abortion,” InfoWars reporter Joe Biggs got a number of students at the University of Texas in Austin to sign a petition for “post-birth abortion” that would allow killing children up to five years old. His efforts were captured on video.

But long before Biggs posted his man-on-the-street campus poll, Created Equal posted a video showing in a shocking manner the mentality of some modern college students.

“If you kill a baby fetus, it’s the same thing as killing any old inanimate object,” one college student told Created Equal in a 2011 conversation captured on video. “Like a rock, a tree – whatever. It’s not self aware. So what’s the point of holding on to its life?”

When a Created Equal member asked this college student when a young person becomes self aware, he replied: “Um, I am not a scientist, I am not a doctor, but if I recall from taking classes and stuff like that, like after a certain amount of months and years like, after a child is growing, like they begin to understand. I think it’s somewhere around the time of like, speech.”

....More people are taking a more extreme position on abortion rights.

For example, in 2013, students from the University of New Mexico were bussed to the Albuquerque polls to vote down the late-term abortion referendum that would have banned abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy.

And a fall 2013 philosophy syllabus from UC San Diego even includes a piece by Peter Singer, the moral philosopher who supported infanticide. Although most professors are not necessarily teaching that infanticide is acceptable, it is not clear that they are condemning it, either.

One student told Survivors that, a few years ago at one university in Southern California, a graduate school professor who taught “virtue ethics” once gave a lecture in which he used the case of Terri Schiavo to argue along the lines of: “If we could do it in her case (i.e. kill her), why can’t we do it with other people?”

Schiavo was a 26-year-old woman who inexplicably collapsed into a permanent vegetative state and was kept on life support for years before her feeding tube was removed and she died.

The scholar continued to say that he and his partner had a surprise baby, 2 years old at the time. He said, “I absolutely love my son, but I wouldn’t call him a person because he doesn’t have the reasoning capabilities, the personality that I would say is necessary for someone to be called a person.” During that class, none of the graduate students challenged him....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOraCSKcRUw&list=PLA53D75F230787DE6

Dori
01-12-2015, 04:26 PM
These college kids are adopting the ideology of their professors...it's so important to choose the right education for your kids...

Colleges don't hire conservative professors.

This article is ten years old, so you can be sure it's even worse today.

College Faculties A Most Liberal Lot, Study Finds

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

noonwitch
01-12-2015, 05:07 PM
It's college students. I wouldn't put it past many of them to be thinking that they are making fun of the pollsters. I remember how we used to shout down Michael Warneki and his followers when they came on our campus in the 80s-especially on Fridays or when they would hang out in front of the stadium on game days. Intoxicated college students usually think they are the funniest people on earth, even when they are making what the rest of us would consider really sick jokes.

MrsSmith
01-12-2015, 09:20 PM
This is one of the many reasons that I had to stop supporting abortion rights. It's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons. People are getting to where they don't know where to draw the line. Maybe the line should just be drawn at the beginning?

Where do people get the idea that little kids aren't people yet or not self-aware? I was very self-aware by the time I was three years old. I even have flashbacks to being in my high chair and of wearing a dress in which at the oldest, I was one year old. I think the "experts" say one's memories can't go back that far, but mine do. Kids are adorable when they're showing self-awareness, curiosity about how something works, and other things. They're all traits that show they are people. Actually, having a body full of organs show they're people. This is absurd.
I have memories of walking into a room when I was less than 18 months old, and I know I was younger than that because that was when my great-grandfather was in the hospital before he died. It's the only memory I have of him, in his hospital bed.
I also have many, many memories of the house my grandparents sold when I was 3. My parents were shocked when I could describe the layout of the house, the colors of the rooms, the view from the upstairs bedroom, the barn, the windbreak, the time I left my crayons on the picnic table and they melted.

It is the height of pride and hubris to believe that any human has the right to decide life and death for another human...unless that other human has made the choice to forfeit his or her life by committing murder. Self-awareness has absolutely nothing to do with the humanity of the life in question. The entire issue of self-awareness is a false argument.

onlinebiker
01-13-2015, 09:15 AM
BTW, regarding the article in the OP, all I can say is that "anecdotal evidence" is a polite way to say "no evidence" based on my experience. It seems to me that in this age of video phones, that to make such an assertion without video or at least audio to back it up really should set off anyone's Bullshit Meter. I think we are talking about a story that, at best, is based on exaggeration and at worst is outright false.

Hard to say without any evidence, dontcha think?


It's easy to SAY -- but just spewing forth, does not truth make...

Then all you need is people who believe it, to "spread the truth"....

SVPete
01-13-2015, 09:54 AM
BTW, regarding the article in the OP, all I can say is that "anecdotal evidence" is a polite way to say "no evidence" based on my experience. It seems to me that in this age of video phones, that to make such an assertion without video or at least audio to back it up really should set off anyone's Bullshit Meter. I think we are talking about a story that, at best, is based on exaggeration and at worst is outright false.

Hard to say without any evidence, dontcha think?

So, are you saying that the people groups like Survivors meet do not in fact exist? Or was "anecdotal evidence" just the convenient pretext for dismissing what you don't want to consider.

How does "anecdotal evidence" differ from "experimental results"? Or "eyewitness testimony"? All three are personal experiences.

SVPete
01-13-2015, 09:57 AM
If we legitimize killing people who aren't self-aware, then the Democrats are in real trouble.

Seriously, though, this is exactly how the Nazi eugenicists sold wholesale state-selected euthanasia of 'Defectives' as a legitimate social program, and once it was accepted, it was a relatively short trip to genocide for them by just moving the goalposts on what was considered 'Genetically defective.'

More to the point, on what basis can those college students who believe infanticide and paedo-cide are OK prove they are "self-aware"?

txradioguy
01-13-2015, 09:58 AM
So, are you saying that the people groups like Survivors meet do not in fact exist? Or was "anecdotal evidence" just the convenient pretext for dismissing what you don't want to consider.

How does "anecdotal evidence" differ from "experimental results"? Or "eyewitness testimony"? All three are personal experiences.

Because AA said so...haven't you learned that by now? LOL!

onlinebiker
01-13-2015, 03:38 PM
This one is a matter of trick wording to idiot kids, like when they asked if the pollutant dihydrogen monoxide should be curbed, no one actually thinks water should be eliminated and there are very few that would think a baby should be killed.

Sent from the barnyard using Tapatalk

Ding ding ding... We have a winner......

So, all of you who got riled up - stand down........

It's just showing how inattentive kids are......."Post birth abortion".....

geeesshhh .....

Don't ya feel silly????

Retread
01-13-2015, 04:46 PM
.....

Don't ya feel silly????

Not really.


On Dec. 3, 2014, at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Survivor team member Sam Riley talked with a student who said he supported the “choice of the intellectual human.”

He said that “an intellectual human is a 5-, 6- or 7-year-old. They don’t know anything until 5, 6 or 7 years old.” When asked whether it was permissible to kill 2, 3, and 4-year-olds, he said: “Yes, under that criteria, I guess it would be ok.”

On Oct. 15, 2014, at Golden West College in Huntington Beach, Calif., a student admitted to Survivor team member Josh Cummings that a fetus is a human fetus. When asked when it was okay to kill a defenseless human life, the student said, “many times.” Cummings then asked the student whether a mother could drown her 2-year-old in the bathtub if she couldn’t afford to take care of it. “Yes, absolutely,” the student responded.

On Dec. 10, 2014, at Pomona College in Claremont, Calif., Survivor team member Lizzy Riley talked to a student who called himself a “utilitarian.” He said that if abortion were legal in India then people would not be forced to kill or abandon their baby girls. The situation now, he said, makes it necessary to kill these girls.

On Oct. 13 and 14, 2014, at UC San Diego, Lizzy Riley talked to three or four people who exhibited this utilitarian mindset, saying they had no problem with killing a 1- or 2-month-old. They admitted this after being shown there is no substantial biological difference between a 7-month fetus and a 2-month-old.


Now just where is the trick wording here?

Elspeth
01-13-2015, 04:55 PM
Ding ding ding... We have a winner......

So, all of you who got riled up - stand down........

It's just showing how inattentive kids are......."Post birth abortion".....

geeesshhh .....

Don't ya feel silly????

Sorry, biker, it's not that simple. If I thought that this small but growing belief was just a matter of poor wording or trick questions, I would not have posted either the article or its follow-up.

There is a real movement to bring in the legalized killing of people at the edges of life, even without their consent. The work of "ethicist" Peter Singer is being taught to college students. Singer supports both infanticide under certain conditions and euthanasia. We have the words of one Obamacare architect, Ezekiel Emmanuel, touting the idea that 75 should be the end of life.

If you look at follow up article I published on this thread yesterday (a few posts back on the previous page), you will find that other professors are also touting the idea that life can be destroyed as long as it is "not self aware".

You don't need a lot of students to believe these ideas, only a critical mass. This reminds me a lot of homosexual "marriage"--an idea that was inconceivable 40 or 50 years ago. Most people would not have supported it back in the 1970s if polled. However, a militant activist movement plus a critical mass of tomorrow's leaders (in college)--plus time--and you've got a mainstream view of marriage that stands in opposition to over 2500 years of recorded history.

No matter how wacky this pro-life group in the OP seems, keep this on the back burner. I guarantee that before I leave this moral coil, certain types of infanticide will have been legalized and for the "best" utilitarian reasons.

thundley4
01-13-2015, 05:05 PM
But this also contradicts some polls that are finding abortion is becoming less popular with younger kids.

Elspeth
01-13-2015, 05:29 PM
But this also contradicts some polls that are finding abortion is becoming less popular with younger kids.

Both things are actually happening. If you read the follow-up article I posted on the previous page of this thread, it seems that both sides are playing for the murky middle--those who are technically "pro-choice" but haven't thought much about it. The pro-life side is having success with some of these "moderate" students, but so is the other side, which can only be called pro-killing, since that is what it advocates.

The pro-life side has gained a lot of momentum (hence the concern of Planned Parenthood) but, from what I have seen, much of it is an emotional reaction. These students don't necessarily have the moral and religious underpinnings to understand and support a sustained argument, especially if "life" gets redefined by the intelligensia. The killing side, Peter Singer and his ilk, are presented in philosophy and medical ethics classes and are seen as more "logical" or intellectual. They have been working for years on logical arguments that support the right to kill certain living humans under certain principles like "self awareness" or "usefulness to society".

My fear is that the pro-life group, grounded either in a specific religious tradition or in an emotional/gut reaction will not be able to effectively argue against them.

Elspeth
01-13-2015, 05:40 PM
An interesting New York bill. The abortion plank failed this time but it will certainly return again:

New York Senate passes Women’s Equality bills – without abortion expansion act
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/new-york-senate-passes-womens-equality-bill-without-abortion-expansion-law

The New York Senate opened its legislative session today by passing eight of the 10 planks of the Women's Equality Act (WEA) – but not the controversial measure to expand late-term abortion statewide....

...But the abortion expansion plank would allow abortions to be performed up to the moment of birth, clear nurse practitioners or midwives to perform abortions, and extend abortions after 24 weeks for the mother's “health” – an intentionally imprecise term that in practice allows abortion under any circumstances.

The measure would have forced all hospitals in the state to refer patients for abortion or lose taxpayer funding. Cardinal Timothy Dolan warned that the bill could open the door to forced abortions...

..

onlinebiker
01-13-2015, 06:05 PM
There's also a group called "The Flat Earth Society" that thinks the world is flat.

I wouldn't worry about a nutjob who thinks it's OK to perform "way late term abortions" getting in charge and making new rules....

It might be a good idea to keep them away from kids though.....

Dori
01-13-2015, 08:52 PM
I wouldn't worry about a nutjob who thinks it's OK to perform "way late term abortions" getting in charge and making new rules....

Rahm Emanuel's brother Ezekiel is a physician and so called expert in health policy.

He believes in a "Complete Lives System". It's a theory, that advocates such things as allocating health care, by placing value on a persons life according to age, and their ability to contribute to society. 15 to 40 year olds would get the most.

Obama's Health Rationer-in-Chief

White House health-care adviser Ezekiel Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the 'overuse' of medical care.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203706604574374463280098676

As far as murdering babies goes, the Netherlands are already doing this, so no, it's not that far fetched.

Elspeth
01-14-2015, 02:29 AM
There's also a group called "The Flat Earth Society" that thinks the world is flat.

I wouldn't worry about a nutjob who thinks it's OK to perform "way late term abortions" getting in charge and making new rules....

It might be a good idea to keep them away from kids though.....

The Flat Earth Society didn't have a major voice in Obamacare (Zeke Emmanuel) or on university campuses (Peter Singer.) It's not the absurdity of the belief or its existence on the ideological margins that is the issue: it's the access to power that the holders of a belief have.

RobJohnson
01-14-2015, 12:31 PM
But this also contradicts some polls that are finding abortion is becoming less popular with younger kids.

I agree. College professors have always created creative discussion topics, the majority of the professors we read about are liberal and the topics are controversial. If you disagree with the professor, it might harm your grade.

I don't suspect the murder of anyone will ever be legal-with the exception of capital punishment & war, even if it's "only a child" in the United States.

The last time I checked, the abuse of a child that is 3 years old is still illegal, I doubt the murder of the same child becomes legal anytime soon.

Articulate_Ape
01-30-2015, 10:16 AM
So, are you saying that the people groups like Survivors meet do not in fact exist? Or was "anecdotal evidence" just the convenient pretext for dismissing what you don't want to consider.

How does "anecdotal evidence" differ from "experimental results"? Or "eyewitness testimony"? All three are personal experiences.

My friend, experimental results, assuming the experiment follows standard scientific discipline, will include copious records and data with which to support or debunk a hypothesis or theory. Anecdotal evidence is in no way as reliable as scientific experimentation.

As for eyewitness testimony, you have a valid point of comparison, but neither eye witness nor anecdotal evidence is enough to convict someone unless there are multiple accounts.

I am not interested in debating semantics any further than that and my only point is that in this media age people are more skeptical. You know the old "Pics or it didn't happen" meme? I was the first person to say that, but you'll have to take my word for it. My phone was dead. [emoji328] [emoji327] [emoji336] [emoji111]️

Rockntractor
01-30-2015, 05:58 PM
My phone was dead. [emoji328] [emoji327] [emoji336] [emoji111]️
Can you prove this somehow, phone records etc....?