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onlinebiker
12-09-2014, 09:30 AM
This will probably raise more than a few hackles - so I'd ask you think about it for a bit before posting a reply.

This is something I've had to confront as a spectator -- that is - I knew the people involved.

A large percentage of people will probably agree - that a minor as young as 13 can get life in prison - or even the death penalty -- for 1st degree murder.

This implies that a young person can be responsible for their own actions even as a minor.

Agree??

So -how come..

The same minor cannot consent to sex?

I personally watched an older guy go to prison - for having sex with a 13 year old. He got 12-15 years for it.

And -- the girl - by her own testimony - initiated the sex. The guy was asleep - and she crawled into bed with him.

Under the law - she cannot give consent, as she is seen as unable to make such decisions.

Do you see the disparity?

....

Incidentally - the guy plead guilty. I was at the "trial" -- which was simply a sentencing hearing - it lasted 10 minutes. The guy lost everything he had.

Did he screw up?? Sure.... He should have done a bit of time a year or two -- but I still have problems with the excess of time he did over what was questionably consensual (albeit twisted) sex.

DumbAss Tanker
12-09-2014, 11:37 AM
The whole thing is pretty arbitrary, there is nothing magic about 18 that suddenly makes a person more competent on the day after that birthday than he or she was on the day before. It's a legal fiction, and could just as logically have been set at 21. Thirteen is a little tough to explain in any plausible way, though, if he was conscious during the act and assuming he had some idea of her age (And that she wasn't some freak of nature who looked many years older than her real age), it's not surprising he went down for that one.

The whole current structure where most states make it 18, unless the people having sex were within three years of each other's age (Why three, and not four or five? Just an arbitrary number again, really) is of pretty recent origin, until the last decade or two, it was sixteen with no further qualifications in about half the states. It is to some extent a reflection of our societal trend to prolong childhood and dependency, which is evident in many things from ACA's age 26 rule to the re-elevation of the drinking age, to courts being more and more willing to extend child support obligations through the college years...a trend with certain political effects on the electorate, as well.

There's a tough balance between wanting to protect the innocent or vulnerable, and just spitting in the face of the reality that a huge number of people, including women, are sexually active well before age 18. Our society deals with it by imposing an ironclad and arbitrary number rather than looking at the actual people and their individual capacities, and so there are occasionally some stupid and unjust results.

On the con side, it is a presumption that is contrary to the way criminal intent is interpreted in any other traditional felony or misdemeanor, in these particular cases all the prosecutor has to show is that the accused intended to have sex with a partner, actually had sex with the partner, and the partner was underage (Even if the accused had no idea, was deceived, or even good collateral reason to believe otherwise), and nothing more. This approach applied to a crime like trespass would go like this: You obtain a landowner's permission to cut across his unposted lawn, then he calls the law to have you ticketed, you go to court and he says 'I lied to him about the permission,' and the judge finds you guilty. On the pro side, having an arbitrary number does protect the participants who are actually victimized from being painted as gutter sluts in order for the accused to get off scot free with no regard for the damage the process does to the victim.

One of the stupider thing that happens when the victim is a teenager who can physically pass for an adult, and people start screaming that the older participant as a 'Pedophile.' Pedophilia is a whole different and much worse thing than having sex with someone who has adult sexual attributes, but is under a legal age limit. It's a slander (Or libel if printed), and it shows the screamer's ignorance more than anything else. Could get the screamer sued, too, of course.

NJCardFan
12-09-2014, 12:53 PM
This will probably raise more than a few hackles - so I'd ask you think about it for a bit before posting a reply.

This is something I've had to confront as a spectator -- that is - I knew the people involved.

A large percentage of people will probably agree - that a minor as young as 13 can get life in prison - or even the death penalty -- for 1st degree murder.

This implies that a young person can be responsible for their own actions even as a minor.

Agree??

So -how come..

The same minor cannot consent to sex?

I personally watched an older guy go to prison - for having sex with a 13 year old. He got 12-15 years for it.

And -- the girl - by her own testimony - initiated the sex. The guy was asleep - and she crawled into bed with him.

Under the law - she cannot give consent, as she is seen as unable to make such decisions.

Do you see the disparity?

....

Incidentally - the guy plead guilty. I was at the "trial" -- which was simply a sentencing hearing - it lasted 10 minutes. The guy lost everything he had.

Did he screw up?? Sure.... He should have done a bit of time a year or two -- but I still have problems with the excess of time he did over what was questionably consensual (albeit twisted) sex.

You are comparing apples to oranges as well as creating a huge misnomer. While a minor cannot consent to sex with an adult, a minor CAN consent to sex with another minor. Also, the same minor is old enough to know right from wrong. Now, as for a 13 year old being able to commit 1st degree murder, allow me to introduce you to one Aaron Kean (http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/18-yrs-boy-killed-toddler-article-1.516624). When Aaron was 10 years old, he lured a 3 year old boy into the woods and proceeded to beat him to death with a bat. That said, we're led to believe that children can't make decisions on their own. These are the same children who used to do complex jobs in factories before child labor laws were enacted.

NJCardFan
12-09-2014, 01:06 PM
On the con side, it is a presumption that is contrary to the way criminal intent is interpreted in any other traditional felony or misdemeanor, in these particular cases all the prosecutor has to show is that the accused intended to have sex with a partner, actually had sex with the partner, and the partner was underage (Even if the accused had no idea, was deceived, or even good collateral reason to believe otherwise), and nothing more.

To put it this way, a girl* can have a very good fake ID to use to get into a bar(or simply look old enough to be let through by a lazy or gullible door person). A guy can see her and pick her up in said bar under the pretense that if she's in a bar she's an adult of legal drinking age. He takes her home and has sex with her. If the girl's father finds out what she did(and who she did), he can go down to the police department and press charges against the guy(incidentally so can she) and the guy will be guilty and will do time. This is what happens when you have leftist lawyers making the laws.


*-I said girl because a minor male rarely gets away with this.

onlinebiker
12-09-2014, 03:31 PM
To put it this way, a girl* can have a very good fake ID to use to get into a bar(or simply look old enough to be let through by a lazy or gullible door person). A guy can see her and pick her up in said bar under the pretense that if she's in a bar she's an adult of legal drinking age. He takes her home and has sex with her. If the girl's father finds out what she did(and who she did), he can go down to the police department and press charges against the guy(incidentally so can she) and the guy will be guilty and will do time. This is what happens when you have leftist lawyers making the laws.


*-I said girl because a minor male rarely gets away with this.

Not to mention the probability that if a male minor got picked up by a female of above legal age, he'd be less likely to press charges against her, than to post pics on Facebook and brag about it.