What do you think about Barack Obama requiring community service?Poll

[megimoo]

What do you think about Barack Obama requiring community service?Take a Poll
http://www.politicallore.com/category/featured
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Question :
What do you think about Barack Obama requiring community service?
.......................................votes so far

It is an outrage! How is this freedom? (93%, 679 Votes)

Finally, our country takes responsibility. (7%, 52 Votes)
Total Voters: 731

[megimoo]

Obama Requires Community Service and Removes his Agenda from Website After Scrutiny.
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There has been many arguments this past week over whether the president elect, Obama, will require students to do community service. Some are saying this is slave labor, some say because college discounts will be given it is worth it, some are saying it is for the better of the Country.

If you missed it, Obama has created change.gov, “The Official Web Site of the U.S. Presidential Transition.” On this website Obama lays out his agenda for what he is going to change in this country. Now since the conversation began about what the agenda section of the site actually contained, it looks like it has been removed due to scrutiny. It appears as if it was taken down to be reworded. Now all we have left is the text below:

“Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.”

Luckily, with the creation of the Internet, history cannot be changed so easily. This is the first quote on the site, which appears to have been removed as of last night:

“Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.”

Screen shot http://www.politicallore.com/images/change.jpg

This has obviously been changed due to public scrutiny, something presidents get a lot of. Obama will have plenty of time to get used to it before he is sworn in. Due to this scrutiny he took down his whole agenda section of the site…let’s see what he replaces it with. We finally had a glimpse of what the President-Elect wanted to accomplish, and now that glimpse is gone as soon as we started scrutinizing the specifics….

I do not like this ending as much as you do, but the story has not yet been finished. Obama has the next move. In the meantime, what do you think about Obama’s “change” and his plan? Is this forced labor, or is this better the American youth and Country? Does this say anything about Obama’s character and his ability to deal with criticism? How will this affect his presidency?

Your thoughts below.
http://www.politicallore.com/category/featured

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There Are 15 Responses So Far. »
Comment by LiveFreeOrDie on 9 November 2008:

There is no way in the world I would permit my children to participate in this socialist’s plan to enslave the country or to form an “Obama Youth Brigade” that bears a shocking similarity to the Hitler Youth that I thought we had consigned to the trash bin of history.

Comment by mike on 9 November 2008:

if you google change.gov and any of the agenda topics, you can still get to the cached items before they disappeared to be “changed”

Comment by Yo on 9 November 2008:

Obama’s requirement for community service from Jr. High School through High School will be a difficult thing to accomplish. Children have after school sports, dance, theater and other obligations that enhance their life learning. Although, it is only one hour a week, it should be considered that these obligations should be close to home; maybe cleaning up their own schools (conflict with janitorial unions)or planting and weeding the school’s landscape. Travel to do service will require parental involvement and most likely won’t work out with the people holding down two or more jobs in order to pay the Obama taxes.

Comment by Jules Hamil on 9 November 2008:

Well folks, it’s just the beginning. All the morons and zombies that voted for “The One” will wake up to find Amerika is changing. Isn’t that what they voted for? However, is this the “change” they thought it was going to be? I didn’t vote for him but my family will reap his tearing my Country apart. Stick around friends, it’s gonna be a wild, rough ride.

Comment by Janice on 9 November 2008:

I saw it myself on Friday night. I noticed that his new website said 100 hours community service required for college students (with no mention of college credit). About four hours later, his website was changed to back to how he wrote it originally. I thought the new language was odd and the switch was even stranger.

Comment by Johnny G on 9 November 2008:

What next for the Voying Brownshirts are we going to be subjected to having to listen to the likes of Malcolm X types telling us we have to name our children in traditional African names in honor of “THE ONE” and now with the senate and congress ran by Democrats we are surely going to see more jack booted thugs hitting the street forcing people to follow an agenda that is completely Anti-American and Anti-Freedom ….

My family will fight for Freedom and Honor our US Constitution not use it for a doormat like Democrats and liberal Brownshirts …

Comment by olyrover on 9 November 2008:

What better way to start the cultural revolution, alias “change”, that will take us “THERE” than with the help of millions of idealistic young “volunteers”? Seems to me it’s been done before.

Comment by kenth on 9 November 2008:

Here comes your change. My only solace is that it’s first going to affect the young fools who voted for Obama.

Comment by Jeremy on 9 November 2008:

I can’t believe all of you are complaining about kids doing community service. How is this a bad thing? It’s one hour a week? Most of my friends in college were required to do community service when we were in High School and we continue to do so now.

One hour a week won’t cut into their sports, drama, gymnastics, etc. It’s good for people to get out of the house and see how it really is.

BTW if 400 hours in HS gets you $4000 that’s $10 per hour, much more than most students make at shitty mall or fast food jobs.

Comment by olyrover on 9 November 2008:

Red Guard comes to mind after a bit thought. Mao’s little enforcers.

Comment by Janice on 9 November 2008:

Jeremy, you are not understanding - Obama stated on his site Friday that he would REQUIRE college students to complete service, without stating anything about credit. He has since changed his information back.

Also, you may want to check out Raham Emmanuel’s book called; The Plan: Big Ideas For America” in which he sees compulsory basic training for everyone age 18-25 which would consist of 3 months learning how to make “America safer and more united in common purpose”.

Raham Emmanuel is now BO COS. They have similar visions involving involving involuntarily servitide. Doesn’t matter if it is good or not, it is involuntary.

Comment by Ziv on 9 November 2008:

Jeremy, are you that drunk on Obama that you can’t see what this is? Voluntary service means just that. Not a requirement to graduate. This MUST be an individual’s choice in a free society. It is not the government’s job to limit your life based on what THEY decide they need you for.

Comment by world of war cranks on 9 November 2008:

Good idea,

Specially the more lazy students cant link up education with the wage slavery that awaits them.

School kids tend to live by the day (I did) but when you find there is no work for you the show is over.

Now they can chose not to have qualification while being aware of the consequences.

I passionately hate the military but the Draft did turn man-children into real men.


Can we say: out of touch with reality? 100 hours of cleaning toilets would do her good.

Comment by Johnny G on 9 November 2008:

SO Jeremy on 9 November 2008:

Being forced to do something against your will is acceptable if only for an hour a week huh ?

Thats not Freedom it’s Tyranny Volunteerism is a great thing but it’s not volunteering if you are required to do it !

And what does “the one ” promise in return “a better country ” is it supposed to make you “feel good” let me lay some history on you my friend….

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”-Samuel Adams …

This wasn’t an Election it was a Corination “The One” has been exhaulted as some great leader yet has just to prove alone that he is even a Citizen of the United States He has proven nothing more than to be a stalurt puppet of Socialist Globalism and i for one do not want to subject my children to such tyranny …

Comment by Centurion2000 on 9 November 2008:

Actually it looks like he has pulled ALL of his agenda. Is there a backup of it somewhere on the internet? Did the author take any more screenshots?

[Molon Labe]

We should serve our country because we wish to do so...not because we are required.

Just replace conscription for the military in this quote with Obama's community brigade.



Conscription rests on the assumption that your kids belong to the state. If we buy that assumption then it is for the state — not for parents, the community, the religious institutions or teachers — to decide who shall have what values and who shall do what work, when, where and how in our society. That assumption isn’t a new one. The Nazis thought it was a great idea.

America was founded on the principle of individual liberty — that the government exists to serve, not enslave, the people. Yet conscription is a form of slavery, a horrible and costly exception to America’s founding principle. It is morally repugnant to the ideals of a free society.

Without the draft, unpopular wars are very difficult to fight. The ability to use conscription actually encourages politicians to wage even more wars — the massive resources are a temptation that is hard for the war-lover to resist. When the draft was finally undermined in the 1970s, for example, the Vietnam War ended.

Ronald Reagan - Human Events 1979.

[zBoots]

I like it.


That would be fun to watch.

[JB]

If I have to do 100 hours and the guy next to me only has to do 50...I'm relieved that the policies of the new administration will give him about 20 of my hours.

[Space Gravy]

So long as he's not refering to me as one who has to do it.......I don't have a problem with it.

[zBoots]

So long as he's not refering to me as one who has to do it.......I don't have a problem with it.

I think thats what everyone says about everything he says.

[Space Gravy]

I think thats what everyone says about everything he says.

I'm busy. I play golf. I like to watch football. I don't have time for that foolishness.

[zBoots]

I'm busy. I play golf. I like to watch football. I don't have time for that foolishness.

You have to prioritize your schedule to fulfill the obamalaw.

1. Golf
2. Watch football
3. Make beds @ HIV clinic for 2.5 hours.

[quirites]

I applaud Obama on his marvellous new idea.

I have no doubt he will demonstrate his sincerity by doing this community service himself first - along with all of his administration and staff.

I know he wouldn't require others to do something he isn't willing to do himself.

If the President cleans my toilet I will have no choice but to support him wholeheartedly.

If I were a President I'd do the same thing. Yes I would.

Pure genius.

[BadCat]

Uh, why would I want to pay some stupid kid $10 an hour to do anything?

[Gingersnap]

There are a lot of things wrong with compulsory service but one of the worst and one that I doubt Obama has thought about much is that it necessarily engenders both contempt and distrust of the governing authority.

This happens everywhere the populace is required to fulfill compulsory service within a political framework. Now, you may think this is fine if it works against Obama's politics but it will also work against any body's politics, including ours. Much of the softening up and lack of resistance to cultural deconstruction that is going on in Israel and Switzerland is attributed to the mistrust of authority that has resulted from compulsory service.

The draft (in all wars, not just Vietnam) is famous for turning otherwise calm and reasoned people into paranoid authority-haters for decades after the end of the service term. The numerous attempts to avoid service or to cheat the system just degrade personal conduct and faith in fairness even more.

Instead of a JFK-style, starry-eyed crew of VISTA volunteers, we will get a cynical set of people who are reflexively antagonistic toward volunteerism, authority, and any sense of citizen duty. :mad:

[quirites]

The idea is to form their sturm abteilung.

For those of you not up on your inter/national socialism, that is SA.

I doubt they will wear brown shirts though.

They won't mess with anyone who laughs at them - they are looking to sweep up all the useless weenies and organize them.

Keep them off the streets - put them to work for the People! - kind of a Rooseveltian CCC working for the New Deal.

This will be their Street Army.

Seriously. Really.

[GrumpyOldLady]

Forced volunteering to serve the state = SLAVERY.

Pure and simple - slavery.

Communistic slavery.

America has died. :mad:

[Eldarwen Half-Elven]

This is one of the most infuriating things he could do...besides all the taxing and stuff. Liberty has died...

[lacarnut]

I applaud Obama on his marvellous new idea.

I have no doubt he will demonstrate his sincerity by doing this community service himself first - along with all of his administration and staff.

I know he wouldn't require others to do something he isn't willing to do himself.

If the President cleans my toilet I will have no choice but to support him wholeheartedly.

If I were a President I'd do the same thing. Yes I would.

Pure genius.

His wife and kids should be part of the mix also. On the idiotcy of National Health care for everyone, all Congressional critters should be placed on this system and their pensions should be paid thru social security. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I am all for this community service for every man woman and child. No exemptions though.

Students that get grants should have to work for their free education. That would save the taxpyers money. Plus, those that get free handouts on welfare should also have to participate. No free lunches anymore.

[Lars1701a]

Is it wrong for a college student that gets money from the Fed,local or state for said school do community service? HELL NO

[M21]

It will probably spawn a cottage industry of illegals who will perform your community service for you.

Never mind. Since the economy tanked they probably all went back to Mexico for the winter. They certainly will have no fear of a real border when they come back in the spring.

[FeebMaster]

Sadly, this sort of thing usually has plenty of support from the right, only instead of "do it for the good of the community" it has more of a "it'll make a man out of you, slacker" flavor to it. There have even been threads here with heavy support for mandatory service.

Hopefully the state lovers on the right will oppose it just because a Democrat is proposing it.




There are a lot of things wrong with compulsory service but one of the worst and one that I doubt Obama has thought about much is that it necessarily engenders both contempt and distrust of the governing authority.

You say that like it's a bad thing. It's about the only positive that I can see.

[JB]

There have even been threads here with heavy support for mandatory service.Condoning government mandated mandatory service threads on CU?

Refresh my memory.

[FeebMaster]

Condoning government mandated mandatory service threads on CU?

Refresh my memory.

How? I didn't take any screen shots.

[JB]

How? I didn't take any screen shots.I meant refresh my memory on the topic, not that it matters.

Mandatory military service vs. mandatory leaf raking or just mandatory service in general. I don't remember the threads that's all. It surprises me.

[FeebMaster]

I meant refresh my memory on the topic, not that it matters.

Mandatory military service vs. mandatory leaf raking or just mandatory service in general. I don't remember the threads that's all. It surprises me.

Well, as I recall, the desire here was for a couple of years of military service with the option for some kind of civil service for those with a moral objection to that sort of thing. Lots of quoting of Starship Troopers and gnashing of teeth over the moral degeneration of today's youth.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Both parties have their state worshippers.

[JB]

Nothing surprises me anymore. Both parties have their state worshippers.Well I always thought welfare recipients should sweep streets but I'm not sure if that makes me a state worshiper or not.

[Lars1701a]

Well, as I recall, the desire here was for a couple of years of military service with the option for some kind of civil service for those with a moral objection to that sort of thing. Lots of quoting of Starship Troopers and gnashing of teeth over the moral degeneration of today's youth.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Both parties have their state worshippers.


I am a conservative and you should do community service if you receive one dollar in welfare or college tuition.

[FeebMaster]

I am a conservative and you should do community service if you receive one dollar in welfare or college tuition.

Some conservative.

There shouldn't be any welfare or college tuition provided by the government.

[Lars1701a]

Some conservative.

There shouldn't be any welfare or college tuition provided by the government.


I hear ya but there are as many or more stinking libs in this country so there will be some welfare and college assistance programs.

So should people who receive money from the afore mentioned programs be forced to do community service?

yes or no?

[FeebMaster]

I hear ya but there are as many or more stinking libs in this country so there will be some welfare and college assistance programs.

So should people who receive money from the afore mentioned programs be forced to do community service?

yes or no?

No. Two wrongs don't make a right. Hand outs are bad enough on their own. Forcing people to work isn't going to encourage most them not to take the handout. Basically you've just had the government employ them and the trend will be for them to vote for higher pay and more benefits.

Besides, why waste the energy fighting to get work requirements added when you could spend that energy fighting to get the programs removed entirely? Aim high! Sure you'll probably lose anyway, but if you start off aiming for a compromise, you're guaranteed a loss.

[Celtic Rose]

Well, as I recall, the desire here was for a couple of years of military service with the option for some kind of civil service for those with a moral objection to that sort of thing. Lots of quoting of Starship Troopers and gnashing of teeth over the moral degeneration of today's youth.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Both parties have their state worshippers.

As I recall the discussion, somebody suggested that military service, or at least some sort of service, should be a prerequisite for the right to vote.

[quirites]

Heinlein was a scary guy but he had mobocracy right.


Why have states if the central government makes economic and social regulations? Defeats the whole premise of a federal republic.

The Left has gotten control of the bridge for the first time and be sure that for every dollar they give from Washington they will take two away.

[wulfpaw]

The government ought to require ROTC, and maybe light national guard-type training.

[Sonnabend]

The government ought to require ROTC, and maybe light national guard-type training.

..and in the words of a Virginian I know, who has a daughter "They can go to hell and I will decide, thank you". No government anywhere has the right to force its citizens to serve.

[FeebMaster]

..and in the words of a Virginian I know, who has a daughter "They can go to hell and I will decide, thank you". No government anywhere has the right to force its citizens to serve.

Dear God, I agree with Sonnabend.

Sign of the end times?

[wulfpaw]

I disagree, just as we have the second amendment in order to be able to form a civilian militia if need be, we need some basic training behind that militia. Think of the movie 'Red Dawn', how far would the wolverines have gotten on the 'blood as thin as piss-gangsta mentality' that's so popular today?

[Sonnabend]

I disagree, just as we have the second amendment in order to be able to form a civilian militia if need be, we need some basic training behind that militia.

Which is why you have an all voluntary military.


Think of the movie 'Red Dawn', how far would the wolverines have gotten on the 'blood as thin as piss-gangsta mentality' that's so popular today?

1. Red Dawn was a movie.
2. Aside from two that fled to the free zone, they all died.The idea is to survive the war.
3. It is against the Constitution.

[wulfpaw]

So you're saying that movies can't inspire, can't reflect real life, can't be used as examples of how things can or should be? The point of a war for warriors is to inflict more damage than you take. Winning/losing is the concern of the generals. Against the constitution? Heh, what part of 'provide for the common defense' do you not understand? I'm not talking 'draft 'em to a twenty year stretch' here. I'm talking about maybe the last two summers of high school in a boot camp-type situation, learning the basics of weapons, hand-to-hand, basic tactics in field situations and survival techniques. Think of how prepared new orleans would have been with everybody there having had basic survival training. Ah, but with gun training people would be more comfortable in keeping guns; with survival training we wouldn't need FEMA as much or at all, etc. Slowly but surely we're being weaned away from self-reliance.

[Sonnabend]

So you're saying that movies can't inspire, can't reflect real life, can't be used as examples of how things can or should be?

The only thing Red Dawn inspired was "That was a good movie..but I liked Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade more"


The point of a war for warriors is to inflict more damage than you take. Winning/losing is the concern of the generals.

Staying alive is kinda a priority for most people these days...soldiers as well.


Against the constitution? Heh, what part of 'provide for the common defense' do you not understand?

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

What part of this don't you understand?


I'm not talking 'draft 'em to a twenty year stretch' here.

This is a draft, hence unConstitutional.


I'm talking about maybe the last two summers of high school in a boot camp-type situation, learning the basics of weapons, hand-to-hand, basic tactics in field situations and survival techniques.

Involuntary military service = draft.

Answer me this question..what will you do to the following reply. "I refuse"


Think of how prepared new orleans would have been with everybody there having had basic survival training.

Jack and shit based on the above training materials.

NO was a job for a highly trained and qualified rescue team, trained in disaster management, catastrophics, communications, flood management, reconnaissance and recovery on a city wide level.


Ah, but with gun training people would be more comfortable in keeping guns; with survival training we wouldn't need FEMA as much or at all, etc.

Speaking as a fifteen year veteran of volunteer emergency services, I am more than happy to tell you that that statement is so much builshit.

[Eldarwen Half-Elven]

I totally agree with Sonnabend, too. It should always stay VOLUNTARY.

[wulfpaw]

I'd answer, but you can't punch holes in holes..

[noonwitch]

I think schools requiring a little public service out of kids is not such a bad thing. How many of us had fundraisers in school where we donated the proceeds to a charity? I cleaned up city parks for Young Life, visited old people in nursing homes for church youth group and Girl Scouts, and, in a memorable experience, played a concert at the local mental hospital with an ensemble from my high school orchestra.

I think if that is what Obama wants to require of kids in school districts that aren't already doing that kind of thing, there's no problem. It's good for kids to help other people, it helps them understand that other people are as real as them and have needs that they can help with. Especially visiting old folks in the nursing home-the residents love it when kids come to visit, and it is not stressful for the kids.

[Sonnabend]

I think schools requiring a little public service out of kids is not such a bad thing. How many of us had fundraisers in school where we donated the proceeds to a charity?

Which they did voluntarily. I was a volunteer emergency officer for fifteen years...had anyone ever told me I had no choice in the matter, my immediate reply would be" And if I say NO?.."

This is government indentured involuntary labour..in other words...SLAVERY.


I cleaned up city parks for Young Life, visited old people in nursing homes for church youth group and Girl Scouts, and, in a memorable experience, played a concert at the local mental hospital with an ensemble from my high school orchestra.

Good for you.You did it because you wanted to..not beacause someone forced you into it. What if you have other plans? What if you just dont want to for your own damned reasons? Who the hell is the government to order free children into indentured labour against their wishes?

And what if the parents dont want them to either? What'll you do then..arrest the parents?

If it is not done voluntarily and out of a wish to do it then it is slavery and it is servitude.

It is also unconstitutional.

I think if that is what Obama wants to require of kids in school districts that aren't already doing that kind of thing, there's no problem.

I see...so children are the property of the State now?


It's good for kids to help other people, it helps them understand that other people are as real as them and have needs that they can help with

And if they refuse?


Especially visiting old folks in the nursing home-the residents love it when kids come to visit, and it is not stressful for the kids.

The last thing an elderly man or woman wants as company is an EXTREMLY PISSED OFF ten or eleven year old who has been shanghaied, their freedoms erased, their parents authority and role usurped by the Dear Leader's Youth Corps.

[FlaGator]

I don't have a problem with it... but then again I already do volunteer stuff.

[Sonnabend]

I don't have a problem with it... but then again I already do volunteer stuff.

How would you feel if you were told to do it, and no matter what other plans you had made...you were told to be there or else.

[PoliCon]

and of course once they can foce you to do community service - they can easily take the next step and dictate where you do your community service. After all - the soup kitchen has enough help while PETA needs more.

[Sonnabend]

1. Who looks after then whilst they do this service?
2. Who feeds them?
3. Who ensures their medical needs are cared for?
4. If they get hurt who is responsible?
5. Who pays for their transport there and back?
6. Who will run this?
7. What guarantee will there be that the kids wont be subjected to ideological harassment?
8.. Nursing homes are breeding grounds for infections,what happens if a kid gets sick?
9. Will they be trained in OHAS as well? They will have to be.
10. Will the places that have these kids guarantee that they will not be exposed to sexual predators?

And the kicker: what will they do if the kid / parents just stand there and says NO?.

Whatya gonna do..arrest them?

What if the kid decides he wants to go ride his bike instead? Lay one hand on that child for any reason and all hell breaks loose.

Penalise him for "not serving"....and I smell a massive lawsuit.

[FlaGator]

How would you feel if you were told to do it, and no matter what other plans you had made...you were told to be there or else.

I guess that depends on what they asked me to do. If they are telling me that I must sacrifice some of my free time to help clean parks or feed the homeless I don't think that I'd have issues. Now if they told me that I was going to be mowing the grass at the governor's mansion I'd probably get a little bent out of shape over it. I have been court ordered to do community service in the past. They didn't tell me when I had to do it, just when I needed to have all the hours completed. They also let me pick the job I wanted so I select to work the information desk at local hospital.

[Celtic Rose]

I don't have a problem with it... but then again I already do volunteer stuff.

However, you are doing it willingly. I am all for volunteering, but what about 14 year old who has to do, doesn't want to do, and has a really bad attitude about it. What will his effect be on the other volunteers, or the people he is supposed to be helping?

[megimoo]

I guess that depends on what they asked me to do. If they are telling me that I must sacrifice some of my free time to help clean parks or feed the homeless I don't think that I'd have issues. Now if they told me that I was going to be mowing the grass at the governor's mansion I'd probably get a little bent out of shape over it. I have been court ordered to do community service in the past. They didn't tell me when I had to do it, just when I needed to have all the hours completed. They also let me pick the job I wanted so I select to work the information desk at local hospital.
You must have been a 'wild one' as a younger man !Did you find GOD in the slammer ?

[PoliCon]

the problem I see with this right off the bat is that certain groups/organizations will get a mass influx of help while others will get nothing. Now given the lefts propensity towards redistribution of wealth - what's to stop them from taking volunteers from the church and sending them to work at the mosque? Or from saying the Boy Scouts doesn't count because they won't let gays be molesters - I mean leaders . . . .

[Living in La]

My middle daughter is a 4-year JROTC cadet and I encouraged her, but my oldest daughter was not the type to fit in to that program. She, at 19, is active in dance and theater and has been very active in local political races. All three of my daughters (the youngest is almost 8) are active in charity events through a fraternal organization my husband and I belong to and have participated in Veterans Day, Flag Day and Memorial Day remembrances. These girls learned early to give back to their community and get involved. And they all learned to shoot and clean their weapons. Yes, ROTC is a great program, my daughter has benefitted many times over, but it can only do so much.

[noonwitch]

Which they did voluntarily. I was a volunteer emergency officer for fifteen years...had anyone ever told me I had no choice in the matter, my immediate reply would be" And if I say NO?.."

This is government indentured involuntary labour..in other words...SLAVERY.



Good for you.You did it because you wanted to..not beacause someone forced you into it. What if you have other plans? What if you just dont want to for your own damned reasons? Who the hell is the government to order free children into indentured labour against their wishes?

And what if the parents dont want them to either? What'll you do then..arrest the parents?

If it is not done voluntarily and out of a wish to do it then it is slavery and it is servitude.

It is also unconstitutional.


I see...so children are the property of the State now?



And if they refuse?



The last thing an elderly man or woman wants as company is an EXTREMLY PISSED OFF ten or eleven year old who has been shanghaied, their freedoms erased, their parents authority and role usurped by the Dear Leader's Youth Corps.



Kids don't have rights until they are 18, except at the discretion of their parents or guardian. If their parents agree with the schools about the service work, it is not slavery or involuntary labor. It's called character building. Most of the examples I gave were voluntary on my part, but the concert at the county mental hospital was not. My grade would have suffered had I opted out of it. I enjoyed it, though, and my teacher appreciated me being there because unlike the other kids, I was not intimidated by the patients.

If parents don't like the requirements, they can always enroll their kids in private school.

[PoliCon]

If parents don't like the requirements, they can always enroll their kids in private school.:mad: no. if they don't like it - they need to get involved. We need to stop letting the left push us around.

[M21]

It's called character building. That's what the Judge said. :D

[M21]

:mad: no. if they don't like it - they need to get involved. We need to stop letting the left push us around.Amen. Those parents are the bill payers and the public schools are our schools.

[PoliCon]

Amen. Those parents are the bill payers and the public schools are our schools.they're supposed to be our schools . . . .and it's time we take them back. When was the last time anyone here went to their local school board meeting?

[Living in La]

they're supposed to be our schools . . . .and it's time we take them back. When was the last time anyone here went to their local school board meeting?

I was at one last week!!!!! I had to get involved early because my oldest daughter had health issues (juvenile diabetic and the school had no protocol for dealing with it). Even though she has graduated, it has become a habit and I still have children in school.

[PoliCon]

I was at one last week!!!!! I had to get involved early because my oldest daughter had health issues (juvenile diabetic and the school had no protocol for dealing with it). Even though she has graduated, it has become a habit and I still have children in school.Okay that makes 2 of us. How many others? And if you don't - why the hell not?? :mad:

[Sonnabend]

Kids don't have rights until they are 18, except at the discretion of their parents or guardian.

Uh, yes they do. The Constitution does not have an age limit on it.


If their parents agree with the schools about the service work, it is not slavery or involuntary labor.

And as I said...if the child refuses? What will you do then? Force them?? Lay ONE hand on them and it's assault.

The police cannot get involved, and even if they do, there is no law that says they can force any citizen to do a damned thing. Have they broken any law? No? Then there is no jurisdiction.

Get a court involved? You'll have a civil rights issue on your hands.


It's called character building.

It's called conscription, and as a 14 year old, I know what my reply was.

"Make me"


If parents don't like the requirements, they can always enroll their kids in private school.

[Sonnabend]

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.Show me where that says that there is an age limit or an age specific category for this right.

This is involuntary servitude as defined by the Constitution.

[noonwitch]

And as I said...if the child refuses? What will you do then? Force them?? Lay ONE hand on them and it's assault.]


As in my orchestra class, the kid can choose not to participate and if he chooses not to, the consequence will be a lower grade. No one can physically make a kid do anything in a school setting, the kid has to have a motivation factor of some type.

But I agree with everyone who says to attend school board meetings and participate in them, whenever possible. You'll be shocked by some of the crap that goes on, for one thing. My dad used to go, when we were in school. He started because he did business with them and had to put in bids in person (he sold janitor supplies). He kept going because of what he found out-in our district, they were spending too much money on athletics at the expense of things like new textbooks.

Then, if there is some kind of mandate about kids performing community service, you can help decide what the parameters will be for your kid. Will they count stuff they do with their church groups or scouts, or does it have to be service through the school?

[Sonnabend]

No one can physically make a kid do anything in a school setting, the kid has to have a motivation factor of some type.

Precisely.


But I agree with everyone who says to attend school board meetings and participate in them, whenever possible.

Children do not attend board meetings. Parents do.


Then, if there is some kind of mandate about kids performing community service, you ca help decide what the parameters will be for your kid. Will they count stuff they do with their church groups or scouts, or does it have to be service through the school?

"Mandate"?

Or will the parent say they didnt vote for this bozo, no one is telling their kids to do anythng, and anyone that gives that order can go pound sand.

Noonwitch, will you please go back and show me in the 13th Amendment where it says this does not apply to children?

1. Who looks after then whilst they do this service?
2. Who feeds them?
3. Who ensures their medical needs are cared for?
4. If they get hurt who is responsible?
5. Who pays for their transport there and back?
6. Who will run this?
7. What guarantee will there be that the kids wont be subjected to ideological harassment?
8.. Nursing homes are breeding grounds for infections,what happens if a kid gets sick?
9. Will they be trained in OHAS as well? They will have to be.
10. Will the places that have these kids guarantee that they will not be exposed to sexual predators?
11. Do the parents have a choice as to where their children will go?
12. Do the children?

[PoliCon]

Children do not attend board meetings. Parents do. actually - kids can go too - but it's the parents who have the voices that will get results more often than not.

[lawolverine]

ha, ha, ha! sure is pure genius! Americans are not going to let that happen, at least i hope they wouldn't.

JINDAL/PALIN 2012!!!

[lawolverine]

obama has some scary thoughts running through that liberal mind. he used people who are used to handouts to get elected. he led everyone to believe that he would change everything. he would change that fact that you have to work to earn your keep. he would change the fact that poor people can't make other poor people rich"things will trickle from the bottom up". i am a poor person in the sense of money, so i'm not putting anybody down i'm just stating fact. i am poor, but i have pride. i know i didn't make the right choices which puts me where i am today. i work, i have a home, i support my kids, i pay taxes. i may not have much else but my freedom, but thats enough for me. i'm not on food stamps and welfare, and i don't complain that my government doesn't do enough. if community service is so important to obama why didn't he or joe biden donate more than they have. i think they donated something like 3,500.00 last year. where does he think its right to tell people they have to give. Americans give every day everywhere. we give our time, money, and love to people across the world every day. my 7 yr. old gives to good causes. if we go to wal mart and the Shriner guy is out there she gives to him, we also give money to the homeless when we can, but to demand or make law of this is a violation of our right to choose and be independent in our thoughts. we broke free of the British because of issues like this.our fore fathers are turning in their graves right now. they are asking what was all that for? the fighting for freedom for people to just let it slip away. Americans got to careless and gave our government too much power and we need to take it back. i won't say before its too late, because its never too late to fight back.

[noonwitch]

"Mandate"

Or will the parent say they didnt vote for this bozo, no one is telling their kids to do anythng, and anyone that gives that order can go pound sand.

Noonwitch, will you please go back and show me in the 13th Amendment where it says this does not apply to children?

I tried that 13th Amendment argument on my 8th grade gym teacher (and my parents after parent-teacher conferences) when I refused to participate in any gymnastic activity in which I could break my neck (uneven bars, certain moves on the trampoline, and so on-I'm a klutz, and I could foresee injury). I got a C (an F in that unit of the class), and was willing to take the C and save my vertebrae. My parents told me that's what happens to you when you don't cooperate-sometimes you save your neck, but it's at a price. Kids are required to be educated, whether it's at a school or by their parents, and the schools and the parents set the parameters of what is taught and how it is taught. The schools require kids to participate in gym classes, to complete homework, to attend many special activities if they are involved in music classes (I single out music classes because students get credit-sports are extra-curricular).

You are implying that this service work will require serious, physical labor beyond what school already requires of kids. I highly doubt that. Many schools already require that high school students perform a certain number of hours of community service before they get their diploma. Its in-school activities-gathering canned goods to donate to local charities, having a fundraiser to donate money to a homeless shelter, preparing and sending care packages to the troops overseas- these are the kinds of activities that my coworkers say that the schools are asking of their kids.

[Speedy]

Lots of quoting of Starship Troopers and gnashing of teeth over the moral degeneration of today's youth.

Nothing surprises me anymore. Both parties have their state worshippers.

Federal Service in Starship Troopers was not mandatory or compulsory. It was strictly voluntary. The object being was that it was left up to the individual to decide if the priviledges of full citizenship were worth fighting for or not.

[FeebMaster]

Federal Service in Starship Troopers was not mandatory or compulsory. It was strictly voluntary. The object being was that it was left up to the individual to decide if the priviledges of full citizenship were worth fighting for or not.

That's true, but I don't recall if anyone brought it up. I'm not sure how many of them actually read the book.

Besides, since we get the full privileges of citizenship automatically, it would only be fair if the government required us to serve the state in return.

It will build character, or something.

[megimoo]

Federal Service in Starship Troopers was not mandatory or compulsory. It was strictly voluntary. The object being was that it was left up to the individual to decide if the priviledges of full citizenship were worth fighting for or not.I always thought that was a great idea.If you chose not to defend your country you couldn't vote and were considered a second class citizen,a Dunsel.

It certainly makes sense and guarantees that your motives in voting are honest and patriotic.Star Trek also had a term for someone that didn't 'pull their own weight' ?

"Dunsel is a term used by mid-shipmen in the 23rd century to describe a part which serves no useful purpose.

[Speedy]

That's true, but I don't recall if anyone brought it up. I'm not sure how many of them actually read the book.

Besides, since we get the full privileges of citizenship automatically, it would only be fair if the government required us to serve the state in return.

It will build character, or something.

There in lies the problem. We are given our freedoms and priviledges for nothing and it is the lives of efforts of other (veterans excluded) that protect them and safeguard them for us. That is why so many are so willing to trade them away so cheaply for "healthcare" and "benefits."

The only association that most people who mention Starship Troopers is the movie. While I do like the movie, it pales in comparison with the book. People who are familiar with the book lament the exclusion of the "power suits" the Mobile Infantry wore but were not used in the movie. What I wish had been included and would have been very cool were the genetically engineered dogs that had human level intelligence and could talk, called "Calebs." Inclusion of those and their relationship with their K-9 Trooper handlers would have made the movie much more interesting.

[Speedy]

I always thought that was a great idea.If you chose not to defend your country you couldn't vote and were considered a second class citizen,a Dunsel.

It certainly makes sense and guarantees that your motives in voting are honest and patriotic.Star Trek also had a term for someone that didn't 'pull their own weight' ?

"Dunsel is a term used by mid-shipmen in the 23rd century to describe a part which serves no useful purpose.

People always think of the government in Starship Troopers as a fascist society. It was not. The society in Starship Troopers honored the rights and freedoms of the individual and those who coveted them enough to risk their lives for them or in times of peace, serve honorably for them.

The Federation government in Starship Troopers came about as a result of an "Emergency Measure" taken by war veterans in forming a militia Scotland to fight crime when a corrupt local government in Aberdeen could or would not. They would not allow anyone but war veterans to join. When they ousted the local government they found themselves in charge and brought in other war veterans to help govern. This spread throughout Britain then Europe then the World.

[FeebMaster]

There in lies the problem. We are given our freedoms and priviledges for nothing and it is the lives of efforts of other (veterans excluded) that protect them and safeguard them for us. That is why so many are so willing to trade them away so cheaply for "healthcare" and "benefits."

But you aren't given freedom for nothing. If you want it, you have to take it. Odds are if you do, you'll die for it.


The only association that most people who mention Starship Troopers is the movie. While I do like the movie, it pales in comparison with the book. People who are familiar with the book lament the exclusion of the "power suits" the Mobile Infantry wore but were not used in the movie. What I wish had been included and would have been very cool were the genetically engineered dogs that had human level intelligence and could talk, called "Calebs." Inclusion of those and their relationship with their K-9 Trooper handlers would have made the movie much more interesting.

Pricier in the special effects department too.

Besides, it's the military aspect and service guarantees citizenship thing that seems to attract conservatives. Personally, I think Heinlein had plenty of other better ideas to base a society on in his other books. He burns through six or seven I think in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress alone.

My favorite has always been that one line from The Puppet Masters: "The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time, and with utter recklessness."

[Sonnabend]

Besides, since we get the full privileges of citizenship automatically, it would only be fair if the government required us to serve the state in return.

It will build character, or something.

There's a hole in that theory

In Troopers, you volunteered, even if you didn't measure up to 100% physical perfection, you were admitted to serve. I was physically disqualified from serving, I volunteered after I turned 18 and was turned down three times.

That would disqualify me from voting over an issue i could not control...you cannot make citizenship or voting concomitant to serving, when the person in question volunteers to serve and is told NO.

I could have been a programmer, a researcher, a computer officer a radar officer, Supply, Logistics, Intel..any one of a hundred roles that did not require perfect physical health.

[Speedy]

There's a hole in that theory

In Troopers, you volunteered, even if you didn't measure up to 100% physical perfection, you were admitted to serve. I was physically disqualified from serving, I volunteered after I turned 18 and was turned down three times.

That would disqualify me from voting over an issue i could not control...you cannot make citizenship or voting concomitant to serving, when the person in question volunteers to serve and is told NO.

I could have been a programmer, a researcher, a computer officer a radar officer, Supply, Logistics, Intel..any one of a hundred roles that did not require perfect physical health.

In Starship Troopers Federal Service was a RIGHT. They could not deny you entry into the Federal Service. The Federation was bound and obligated to find every civilian a place within the Federal Service to serve. They had to provide every single person the opportunity to gain full citizenship if that person so desired it by volunteering for Federal Service.

One other thing about Federal Service was that one could resign at anytime except during actual combat and have suffer no penalty except forfeiting the right to become a citizen for ever. If you left Federal Service "unofficially" (desertion) in non-combat operations you were not even hunted down though punishment by flogging was the penalty if you chose to return to finish out your term of service.

By being able to quit at anytime the person serving could decide if citizenship was truly worth staying in or leaving. I guess it would become more precious if you imposed hardships on yourself that you could have avoided at anytime they became to great.

On of the characters in the book that was briefly shown in the movie was Fleet Seargent Ho. The one who in the movie processes the recruits when they were given their assignments. He is the NCO at the desk who greets them and is a triple amputee, missing both legs and an arm. In the book he wears prosthetics when not on duty but when he is on duty, the Federation required him to be his true self so the recruits could see the price their service could cost them.

[Sonnabend]

In Starship Troopers Federal Service was a RIGHT. They could not deny you entry into the Federal Service. The Federation was bound and obligated to find every civilian a place within the Federal Service to serve.

Exactly. That was my point to Feeb...the US military would have to admit everybody.

[Speedy]

Exactly. That was my point to Feeb...the US military would have to admit everybody.


They would at that. In some capacity. But the Federal also had standards and drummed people who did not meet them. Even if you were physically unable to be a pilot or Infantryman, you would be given a position where you could work within whatever limitations you had. Of course you would know this going in and it was well known that Federal Service was not for slackers.

[FeebMaster]

Exactly. That was my point to Feeb...the US military would have to admit everybody.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for it. I was just making the point that in the Starship Troopers universe, service guaranteed citizenship while the people who like to bring it up in these mandatory service conversations seem to feel that citizenship should guarantee service as if the two situations are somehow equivalent.

[Mythic]

I think that everyone should help the community. But community service is not community service when everyone is forced to do it.