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View Full Version : Cardinal: Abortion Undermines Common Good



Phillygirl
11-10-2008, 02:21 PM
BALTIMORE (AP) -- The head of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, opening a national church meeting Monday, said that continued support for abortion rights will undermine any advances in social justice that come from a new president and Congress.

Chicago Cardinal Francis George said ''we must all rejoice'' that an African-American will be in the White House for the first time in a country that ''once enshrined slavery'' in law.

But he said the nation still violates what he called universal human rights by keeping abortion legal. ''The common good can never be adequately incarnated in any society when those waiting to be born can be legally killed at choice,'' George said.

In his speech, George did not directly address the policies of President-elect Obama, who is Protestant, and Vice President-elect Biden, who is Roman Catholic. Both men support abortion rights and take other stands that differ from Catholic teaching.

However, in a later news conference, George, the conference president, said bishops' are preparing to lobby the Obama administration on any policies that diverge from Catholic teaching on marriage, abortion and other issues.

Link to NYT piece (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-REL-Catholic-Bishops.html)

wilbur
11-10-2008, 02:28 PM
Still, Obama received a majority of the Catholic vote over Republican John McCain, according to exit polls. Obama won more Catholic support than John Kerry, who is Catholic, and was the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee.


It's encouraging that Catholic voters would do this.... I'm not talking about choosing Obama... but simply the act of defying the church's views on the governmental role in abortion.

Personally, I think it would be worse for the 'common good' for a minority to force their own philosophical opinion on others by force. Especially when there are plenty of good arguments in favor of the opposition and by no means could it be considered a settled matter.

Phillygirl
11-10-2008, 02:31 PM
It's encouraging that Catholic voters would do this.... I'm not talking about choosing Obama... but simply the act of defying the church's views on the governmental role in abortion.

Personally, I think it would be worse for the 'common good' for a minority to force their own philosophical opinion on others by force. Especially when there are plenty of good arguments in favor of the opposition and by no means could it be considered a settled matter.

Yeah, kind of like slavery.

M21
11-10-2008, 03:30 PM
It's encouraging that Catholic voters would do this.... I'm not talking about choosing Obama... but simply the act of defying the church's views on the governmental role in abortion.


Then you'll have no problem when Joe Biden is excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Seperation of Church and State and all.

wilbur
11-10-2008, 03:39 PM
Then you'll have no problem when Joe Biden is excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Seperation of Church and State and all.

Well, look at the voting numbers that I quoted. They won't excommunicate anyone... it would cause a mass exodus from Catholicism. They have been threatening excommunication/communion refusal for years on this issue, and they simply don't have the stones to actually go through with it... because it would be bad for the church.

noonwitch
11-10-2008, 03:50 PM
The problem is not legalized abortion, it is that too many women are getting into circumstances in which they feel abortion is their best option. I'm pro-choice in a legal sense, but I also am for reducing the number of abortions.

With the election of Obama, abortion rights are pretty much guaranteed at this point, for the next decade at least. So the abortion opponents can continue to gather money from the faithful to fight a legal battle that they will never win, or they can put their money into programs that offer assistance to women who are in crisis pregnancy situations.

M21
11-10-2008, 04:01 PM
The problem is not legalized abortion, it is that too many women are getting into circumstances in which they feel abortion is their best option. You mean they are selfish? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what we have become are “self” worshippers.


I'm pro-choice in a legal sense, but I also am for reducing the number of abortions. How specifically would you do that? Hasn't abortion now become an extension of other birth control methods for the lazy? What other plausible reason is there for a late term abortion?



With the election of Obama, abortion rights are pretty much guaranteed at this point, for the next decade at least. So the abortion opponents can continue to gather money from the faithful to fight a legal battle that they will never win, or they can put their money into programs that offer assistance to women who are in crisis pregnancy situations.What programs do you suggest? I submit that we can do both.

Gingersnap
11-10-2008, 04:02 PM
... or they can put their money into programs that offer assistance to women who are in crisis pregnancy situations.

"They" already do this. Women who wish to keep their children but need help financially can already get it. Women who wish to give their children into a wide variety of adoption situations can already do so with zero financial impacts.

The problem is in convincing women that there is nothing wrong with admitting that they aren't prepared to be a parent or even interested in it. In our society at the moment, you can be a fanatical 'baby mama' or you can kill your child but everyone you know will hate and vilify you if you choose to give your child up. In some circles, it's just about the only irredeemable crime a woman or girl can commit.

:(

LogansPapa
11-10-2008, 05:51 PM
In as much as it cuts down the size of the flock (to be sheared), I can see Cardinal Francis’ economic point.;)

FlaGator
11-10-2008, 06:05 PM
It's sad that women find the need to murder their children or consider that murder is an viable option. There were choices that could have been made long before the choice to kill is considered. Unfortunately we live in a world where responsibility and consequences are becoming theoretical concepts because everyone has been given an excuse to justify their behavior. Unfortunately we are headed for post-delivery terminations based on genetic malformations not discovered until after birth.


Of course, this government adviser, John Harris, a member of the Human Genetics Commission, came to a slightly different conclusion. He believes it might be acceptable to destroy children with "defects" soon after they are born because we do it now before they are born.

You tell me you don't believe in slippery slopes?

The entire Western world is now embracing ideas that sickened them when practiced by Adolf Hitler.

The reasons for this advice from Harris are the most interesting part of the story.


More here (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36789)

It is scary but when one immoral act becomes acceptable someone has to take things to the next level. I'm not normally one to accept the slippery slope philosophy but I have to wonder as I see things that were once taboo become everyday occurrences.

FlaGator
11-10-2008, 06:19 PM
It's encouraging that Catholic voters would do this.... I'm not talking about choosing Obama... but simply the act of defying the church's views on the governmental role in abortion.

Personally, I think it would be worse for the 'common good' for a minority to force their own philosophical opinion on others by force. Especially when there are plenty of good arguments in favor of the opposition and by no means could it be considered a settled matter.

How do you figure that a minority is forcing their opinions on others? There are far more Christians in this country than their are other beliefs and atheists. Even combined the non Christian contingency is less than than that of people of faith. I suppose that you have no issues with Prop 8 in California and Amendment 2 in Florida. After all the majority forced their opinion on others but I guess that is ok.

wilbur
11-10-2008, 07:40 PM
How do you figure that a minority is forcing their opinions on others? There are far more Christians in this country than their are other beliefs and atheists. Even combined the non Christian contingency is less than than that of people of faith. I suppose that you have no issues with Prop 8 in California and Amendment 2 in Florida. After all the majority forced their opinion on others but I guess that is ok.

Well, the relevant quoted bit of the article shows that a slim majority of catholics at least feel that abortion isnt the primary issue in elections, and are willing to vote for pro-choice candidates.

Last time I looked at the stats, it was about 66% of the population who believed that some form of abortion should be legal.

zBoots
11-10-2008, 08:51 PM
There is no thinning of the heard, the weak survive. Hence the expansion of liberals.

Mostly liberals are slaughtering their young.

Ergo, let em.

When you raise rats, you quickly learn which are the good breeder rats and which rats eat their babies.

wilbur
11-10-2008, 11:21 PM
Mostly liberals are slaughtering their young.


I'll bet if you look into it, you'll find that isn't true... not one bit.

You'll also find the vast majority who "slaughter their young" so-to-speak.... are Christian.

FlaGator
11-10-2008, 11:26 PM
Well, the relevant quoted bit of the article shows that a slim majority of catholics at least feel that abortion isnt the primary issue in elections, and are willing to vote for pro-choice candidates.

Last time I looked at the stats, it was about 66% of the population who believed that some form of abortion should be legal.

I would be part of the 66% I think that abortion in the case of incest and to save the mother's life are valid options. But I also feel that abortion as birth control should not be allowed. I believe that many people of faith can accept abortion in exteme cases. Unfortunately most abortions are to correct a bad choice so that a person is free to make another bad choice later on down the line.

wilbur
11-10-2008, 11:42 PM
I would be part of the 66% I think that abortion in the case of incest and to save the mother's life are valid options. But I also feel that abortion as birth control should not be allowed. I believe that many people of faith can accept abortion in exteme cases. Unfortunately most abortions are to correct a bad choice so that a person is free to make another bad choice later on down the line.

Just curious... you fall into the life begins at conception camp no? In that case, how is it justifiable that in the case of rape there should be exceptions allowed for abortion?

The degree of the trauma and suffering surrounding the unwanted pregnancy, even though a healthy baby could be brought to term, merits taking the life of a child?

Given that people experience trauma and pain with different tolerance levels, does that not make abortion equally justifiable for someone who may be experiencing similar emotional distress to that of a rape victim, yet have more normal, less violent circumstances surrounding their pregnancy? Would that be acceptable to you?

zBoots
11-10-2008, 11:52 PM
Just curious... you fall into the life begins at conception camp no? In that case, how is it justifiable that in the case of rape there should be exceptions allowed for abortion?

The degree of the trauma and suffering surrounding the unwanted pregnancy, even though a healthy baby could be brought to term, merits taking the life of a child?

Given that people experience trauma and pain with different tolerance levels, does that not make abortion equally justifiable for someone who may be experiencing similar emotional distress to that of a rape victim, yet have more normal, less violent circumstances surrounding their pregnancy? Would that be acceptable to you?

There are enough 7 toed inbred cockeyed waterbrained retards at DU, so we've determined to go ahead and keep em on the zap list.

noonwitch
11-12-2008, 08:29 AM
I would be part of the 66% I think that abortion in the case of incest and to save the mother's life are valid options. But I also feel that abortion as birth control should not be allowed. I believe that many people of faith can accept abortion in exteme cases. Unfortunately most abortions are to correct a bad choice so that a person is free to make another bad choice later on down the line.


It's either legal or it's not. There is no way to make exceptions-who will determine whether a woman is a victim of rape? Does she have to wait for someone to be prosecuted? Does she have to have bruises or other physical proof that she was raped?

The reality is that abortion is legal, and it looks as if it is going to stay that way. If it's legal for a rape victim, it's legal for the irresponsible. There is no logical or practical standard that can be used to determine who is appropriate under such laws and who isn't.

Phillygirl
11-12-2008, 08:39 AM
It's either legal or it's not.
That's not quite true. Currently it is legal in some cases, and illegal in other.


There is no way to make exceptions-who will determine whether a woman is a victim of rape? Does she have to wait for someone to be prosecuted? Does she have to have bruises or other physical proof that she was raped?

There are exceptions currently. But I agree the rape exception is a difficult one. I would not want a formal accusation to be necessary in order to obtain an abortion. That will lead, imo, to false charges of rape in order to obtain an abortion. If that is to be an exception I'd rather it just be based on the word of the woman that she was raped. No further proof necessary.


The reality is that abortion is legal, and it looks as if it is going to stay that way. If it's legal for a rape victim, it's legal for the irresponsible. There is no logical or practical standard that can be used to determine who is appropriate under such laws and who isn't.

While I agree there is no logical or practical standard, and I am opposed to abortion in all cases except where the mother's life is at stake, I would concede the rape exception merely because it would still reduce the number of abortions considerably.

linda22003
11-12-2008, 03:06 PM
I would not want a formal accusation to be necessary in order to obtain an abortion. That will lead, imo, to false charges of rape in order to obtain an abortion. If that is to be an exception I'd rather it just be based on the word of the woman that she was raped. No further proof necessary.

That's kind of meaningless, then, isn't it? Just askin'.

Right-On
11-12-2008, 03:17 PM
Personally, I think it would be worse for the 'common good' for a minority to force their own philosophical opinion on others by force.

I can't believe i agree with you. :eek: May not be for the same reason but i agree. The fringe left has pushed this upon the majority of the population for too long and now it may be possible for minors to have an abortion without their parents consent. Oh, and to our tax money goes to pay for it is repulsive. These pro-choice (my a$$) people are truly lost.

As for these Christians and Catholics that voted 0bama are like Rinos, ONLY IN NAME and NOT IN PRACTICE.

Phillygirl
11-12-2008, 04:12 PM
That's kind of meaningless, then, isn't it? Just askin'.

To a certain extent, yes. But I think the alternative is worst. If a woman can commit perjury in order to have an abortion, I'd rather that that perjury end there, rather than at the point where yet another innocent victim is affected by her lie.

YupItsMe
11-12-2008, 04:17 PM
The problem is not legalized abortion, it is that too many women are getting into circumstances in which they feel abortion is their best option. I'm pro-choice in a legal sense, but I also am for reducing the number of abortions.

With the election of Obama, abortion rights are pretty much guaranteed at this point, for the next decade at least. So the abortion opponents can continue to gather money from the faithful to fight a legal battle that they will never win, or they can put their money into programs that offer assistance to women who are in crisis pregnancy situations.


Who do you think supports Crisis Pregnancy Centers. Hint: it's not the rabid lesbian feminist pro-choicer screaming ina mike somewhere. It's the quiet little hurches like ours that can barely keep the heat on that are sending them money every year.

YupItsMe
11-12-2008, 04:22 PM
I'll bet if you look into it, you'll find that isn't true... not one bit.

You'll also find the vast majority who "slaughter their young" so-to-speak.... are Christian.

Wow, you must have a really big ass to pull crap like that out of there. I thought we we're the baby machines, get your memes straight at least.

linda22003
11-12-2008, 04:44 PM
To a certain extent, yes. But I think the alternative is worst. If a woman can commit perjury in order to have an abortion, I'd rather that that perjury end there, rather than at the point where yet another innocent victim is affected by her lie.

That logic trail is making my head hurt.

noonwitch
11-12-2008, 04:44 PM
Who do you think supports Crisis Pregnancy Centers. Hint: it's not the rabid lesbian feminist pro-choicer screaming ina mike somewhere. It's the quiet little hurches like ours that can barely keep the heat on that are sending them money every year.


And that's a good thing that your church does.

I'm pro-choice, but I am hardly a rabid lesbian screaming in a mike somewhere. Talk about stereotypes. The majority of the american population is pro-choice.

Liberals send money to Planned Parenthood. They don't just do abortions, you know. They provide prenatal care for poor and low-income women and they provide birth control assistance on a sliding scale. In Grand Rapids, MI, where I grew up, PP was about birth control and prenatal care. They sent women wanting abortions to Lansing or Kalamazoo, because they did not perform them at the GR office.
Liberals send money to other charities that benefit low income pregnant women, too, but are probably not going to support a Crisis Pregnancy Center, mainly because most are supported by churches that liberals do not attend.
Lots of liberals and conservatives support Focus: Hope in Detroit, a program that offers job training, food distribution and child care services to low income people in general, for example.

Phillygirl
11-12-2008, 05:23 PM
That logic trail is making my head hurt.

That's unfortunate.

FlaGator
11-12-2008, 05:39 PM
Just curious... you fall into the life begins at conception camp no? In that case, how is it justifiable that in the case of rape there should be exceptions allowed for abortion?

The degree of the trauma and suffering surrounding the unwanted pregnancy, even though a healthy baby could be brought to term, merits taking the life of a child?

Given that people experience trauma and pain with different tolerance levels, does that not make abortion equally justifiable for someone who may be experiencing similar emotional distress to that of a rape victim, yet have more normal, less violent circumstances surrounding their pregnancy? Would that be acceptable to you?

I don't recall citing rape as a reason for abortion. I stated incest and to save the mother's life. I do believe that life begins at conception.

FlaGator
11-12-2008, 05:42 PM
It's either legal or it's not. There is no way to make exceptions-who will determine whether a woman is a victim of rape? Does she have to wait for someone to be prosecuted? Does she have to have bruises or other physical proof that she was raped?

The reality is that abortion is legal, and it looks as if it is going to stay that way. If it's legal for a rape victim, it's legal for the irresponsible. There is no logical or practical standard that can be used to determine who is appropriate under such laws and who isn't.


I never mentioned rape. It's amazing how many people have read my post and saw the word rape when I never thought it was a valid excuse for abortion. I mentioned incest and to save the life of the mother. Please show me where I mentioned rape.

FlaGator
11-12-2008, 05:46 PM
I'll bet if you look into it, you'll find that isn't true... not one bit.

You'll also find the vast majority who "slaughter their young" so-to-speak.... are Christian.

I'll be willing to bet that you can't back up that statistic. In fact I bet that is one of those "It has to be true regardless of the evidence so I'm going to quote it" facts. Please produce your source.

wilbur
11-12-2008, 08:01 PM
I'll be willing to bet that you can't back up that statistic. In fact I bet that is one of those "It has to be true regardless of the evidence so I'm going to quote it" facts. Please produce your source.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html



Who's having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".


As one would expect, I think these stats line up rather normally with the general population demographics.

http://religions.pewforum.org/img/major_religious_traditions.gif

The Guttmacher Institute has similar stats as well (a wealth of abortion information there... stats, studies etc.. for those interested).

http://www.guttmacher.org/

wilbur
11-12-2008, 08:12 PM
I don't recall citing rape as a reason for abortion. I stated incest and to save the mother's life. I do believe that life begins at conception.

Oops, upon more careful reading, you are right. Guess I am so used to seeing them together as a phrase, I made a mistake.

FlaGator
11-13-2008, 08:07 AM
Oops, upon more careful reading, you are right. Guess I am so used to seeing them together as a phrase, I made a mistake.

You weren't the only one. BTW, thanks for the stats. I find them interesting and informative. I'm not disputing them but I wonder how many of the Catholics are really lapsed Catholics that no longer attend Mass or how many had abortions before becoming converted to the faith.