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View Full Version : Is GM worth saving...... NO!!!



OwlMBA
11-16-2008, 03:22 PM
The head of the UAW refuses to make any concessions. The average GM worker makes $78 an hour including benefits doing a job an 18 yr old high-school dropout could do with two days of training and $10 an hour.

The designers make horrible cars that nobody wants.

And now they are suffering the consequences.

Let them fail.

But that won't happen. They will get some emergency cash to hold them off until January, when Obama and his gang of cronies will CERTAINLY pass them a bailout. The Dems are dependent on the Unions and they will keep GM in business in perpetuity. The Dems will never let a big Union business fail.


For months, General Motors had been telling everyone who would listen that bankruptcy was not an option. It had a $30 billion cash pile and plans to restructure the company as the economy rebounded and 2007 U.S. auto sales topped 16 million units.

Then came October. Sales plummeted an astounding 45% over the same period last year, a result of a slowing economy and a dearth of financing for would-be car buyers. Total U.S. car and light-truck sales this year could come in at 13.5 million, 2.6 million fewer than last year. "That's in nobody's business plan," says Kimberly Rodriguez, an automotive specialist with Grant Thornton. "The best planning in the world cannot survive that fluctuation." It's now clear that GM can't survive as an ongoing entity without massive federal assistance. The company is burning through more than $2 billion each month. It has $16 billion left. As if they were aboard a dirigible losing altitude, GM's bosses have been frantically throwing all manner of stuff overboard — retiree health-care benefits, people, assets, new car design — to conserve $5 billion. That will get it through the year. (See pictures of the 50 worst cars of all time.)

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1858702,00.html?cnn=yes


WASHINGTON — Top Republican senators said Sunday they will oppose a Democratic plan to bail out Detroit automakers, calling the U.S. industry a "dinosaur" whose "day of reckoning" is coming. Their opposition raises serious doubts about whether the plan will pass in this week's postelection session.

Democratic leaders want to use $25 billion of the $700 billion financial industry bailout to help General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC.

Sens. Richard Shelby of Alabama and Jon Kyl of Arizona said it would be a mistake to use any of the Wall Street rescue money to prop up the automakers. They said an auto bailout would only postpone the industry's demise.

"Companies fail every day and others take their place. I think this is a road we should not go down," said Shelby, the senior Republican on the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee.

"They're not building the right products," he said. "They've got good workers but I don't believe they've got good management. They don't innovate. They're a dinosaur in a sense."

Added Kyl, the Senate's second-ranking Republican: "Just giving them $25 billion doesn't change anything. It just puts off for six months or so the day of reckoning."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said over the weekend that the House would provide aid to the ailing industry, though she did not put a price on her plan.

"The House is ready to do it," said Democratic Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee. "There's no downside to trying."

Just $25 Billion in taxpayer money, thats all. But to Barney Frank, thats no big deal.

Zathras
11-16-2008, 04:06 PM
The designers make horrible cars that nobody wants.

This I have to disagree with on the one GM product I own. I have a 1997 Saturn SL2 that runs like a champ. Great little car, never any problems. Saturday morning I was driving home from the movies with a friend when some idiot blew through a red light and turned right in front of me. I couldn't avoid the collision and plowed into the side of his Toyota pick up truck at about 30 mph. After the collision I was surprised that the motor was still running as if nothing had happened. We pulled in to a parking lot to exchange info and inspect damage. The front body work on my car is mangled severely but there were no fluids leaking that I could see. After the police came and took a report I left the car there to be towed in the morning. When the tow truck got there the driver asked if I could start it up and back out so it would be easier to put on the truck. I was doubtful it would start but when I turned the key it fired up on the first try. Hopefully the insurance won't write the car off as totalled but I doubt it. I would recommed the Saturn with enthusiasm if anyone was looking for a car, new or used.

BadCat
11-16-2008, 04:45 PM
You guys ever heard the slogan "Look for the union label"?

I do. And if it has one, I put it back on the shelf.

Jumpy
11-16-2008, 04:47 PM
But arent you hoping that Obama bails GM out?

Bongo55
11-16-2008, 05:10 PM
Unions have destroyed every industry that they have gotten their grubby little hands on.

OwlMBA
11-16-2008, 07:22 PM
You guys ever heard the slogan "Look for the union label"?

I do. And if it has one, I put it back on the shelf.

Amen to that.

OwlMBA
11-16-2008, 07:23 PM
But arent you hoping that Obama bails GM out?

I know he will. and when he does, I will make a lot of money. Which will help offset my upcoming tax increase.

FlaGator
11-16-2008, 08:03 PM
I remember an event 5 or 6 years ago when UAW was asked to accept a small pay cut in order for the manufacture (I think it was GM) to avoid layoffs. UAW refused and a lot of people lost their jobs. That's really having a union take care of you isn't it? I'm sure the unemployed people would have been happy to sacrifice a few dollars an hour in order to keep eating and living indoors.

expat-pattaya
11-16-2008, 09:05 PM
I can't view this rationally.

On one side, I believe capatilism works. Some businessees fail and goverment should let it happen as in the long run this creates a vacuum for a better run business to fill.

On another side, GM employ sSO many people and losing that many jobs at once now might deepen the recession so badly we ALL suffer an additiona couple of years.

Lastly, I have serious money in GMAC and Ford bonds and don't want to lose that money :D

ginad3248
11-16-2008, 09:40 PM
As a airline employee, this is quite the sore spot for me.....
yes, following 9/11, the airline industry did get some goverment bailouts BUt, that was following a national tradgey that directly impacted the airline industry!
Since then however, with my airline alone I have seen not one but 2 bankruptcys! We, THE EMPLOYEES are the one who kept the airline aflot during all this! The flight attendant group alone gave 30% reduction in pay not including reduction in vacation and sick time( which is just the same as $$$$$). also we have given in to MANY changes in our work rules, which means we work much longer hours and days to get paid.
I can't even get into the worries we face on each flight wondering if one of our passengers could be the next muhamed atta or just your typical "i only think of myself, screw u !"I not turning my Blackberry off passenger!
my company came to it's employees when it needed help survivng NOT THE goverment!
AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON IT DID WEATHER the STORM! B/C of the ground employees the whole time when we watched multiple CEO"S and upper mgt walk away w/ bonus after bouns, golden parachutes and stock options!!!!SO, I DO NOT AGREE w/ THE BAILOUT!

sgrooms
11-16-2008, 10:40 PM
And yet in the end, it won't matter. The govt will change hands soon, and they will still be blaming President Bush when their system fails.

We are so screwed.

AmPat
11-16-2008, 11:58 PM
The bailouts will succeed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,In costing taxpayers money. Oh, and prolonging the deaths of these behemoth industries. The Japanese were able to start from essentially a clean slate when they tooled their factories and production methods. the companies need to go bankrupt and re-think their relationship with Unions. Non union labor can make these cars and as a result, the companies can sell them cheaper. If your'e a union guy, you will not like to hear this but it is obvious the unions evolved from help to hurt. The convicts are in charge of the prison.

PoliCon
11-17-2008, 12:03 AM
The only way to SAVE GM is to allow it to go bankrupt.

marinejcksn
11-17-2008, 01:14 AM
Just $25 Billion in taxpayer money, thats all. But to Barney Frank, thats no big deal.

I never really got why the French chopped off Marie Antoinette's head....now I f***ing get it.

Can we just shove off this carpetbagger Frank already? I doubt many would miss the loser.

OwlMBA
11-17-2008, 01:19 AM
I never really got why the French chopped off Marie Antoinette's head....now I f***ing get it.

Can we just shove off this carpetbagger Frank already? I doubt many would miss the loser.

No argument there.

It's time for term limits for these goons. They spend too much time on the Hill and they lose all sense of reality.

marinejcksn
11-17-2008, 01:34 AM
No argument there.

It's time for term limits for these goons. They spend too much time on the Hill and they lose all sense of reality.

I did some research on this dork, because I'd never heard of Barney Frank before all this bailout crap (I just got into politics 2 years ago). He's been in Congress since '81.....who the bleep voted this douche nozzle into office 14 times?

Term limits are sorely needed. Serving in Government is supposed a DUTY, not an effing CAREER. Even I know that.

RobJohnson
11-17-2008, 03:18 AM
The only way to SAVE GM is to allow it to go bankrupt.

Good point.

One problem is all the union parts plant pieceworkers. For years they have bragged about their "kitty" of parts...so many shop workers have told me how they would come in, have their daily quota made by noon and then would sit around for three hours, often having extra parts to bank, so some days they just punch in and read the paper all day....(for overtime pay)

Gosh, even if I have waited on 400 customers by noon, that does not mean I am able to go sit down until 10 pm....I have to keep working....even though 400 is an average day....

I have heard many displaced shop workers tell me these same stories over and over, yet the light bulb never seems to go on for them....maybe the good old days are over, simply because they were fucking the system? :D

I've seen it first hand, not only have I been a union member in the past, I have also worked for unions and served as an elected union rep. I seen both the good and bad, and mostly it's bad. I seen many plants close, this has included International Harvester, Case, CAT, and John Deere locations....

Now, there is nothing easy about assembly line work, and most time studies are pretty tight...it's also hard on the body. So I do think in alot of cases, they earn the pay. But I know many that use union membership or leadership positions to simply take care of themselves. I have seen this hundreds of times...

linda22003
11-17-2008, 07:02 AM
This I have to disagree with on the one GM product I own. I have a 1997 Saturn SL2 that runs like a champ. Great little car, never any problems. ...I would recommed the Saturn with enthusiasm if anyone was looking for a car, new or used.

Me too. My husband and I have had several Saturns between us, and mine is about to turn nine years old with no expensive repairs, just regular maintenance.

jeskibuff
11-17-2008, 08:11 AM
The designers make horrible cars that nobody wants.I partially agree. The bulk of GM cars are horrible...not at all fun to drive in comparison with imports and they're a blight on the roads. I was kind of happy to see Oldsmobile go under because they were such incompetent cars on the road, seemingly only purchased by geriatrics who couldn't pass a driving test or understand a "merge" sign. They bought them because they were like a living room sofa on wheels. I'd love to see Buick and Crappillac take the Oldsmobile route, just to get those obamanations off the road so that traffic would flow better. Saturns are just as incompetent, about on par with a Toyota Echo. The only bad thing to see GM go under would be the effect on jobs and the economy, and that's a rather big downside.

As far as cars that "nobody wants", I have to disagree. There are still too many of them on the road, so somebody obviously wants them or they wouldn't have bought them. But, I understand your use of "nobody" is just an exaggeration.

linda22003
11-17-2008, 08:18 AM
Saturns are just as incompetent, about on par with a Toyota Echo.

Sorry the aesthetics of my car offend you. :rolleyes: It's been a perfect commuting car, since I go about nine miles each way every day.

Constitutionally Speaking
11-17-2008, 08:33 AM
I have owned 4 Oldsmobile Intrigues and LOVED them. :o

biccat
11-17-2008, 08:37 AM
While I've never had a good American car myself, I personally have to support the bailout because my FIL retired from GM, and I really don't want my inlaws to move in with us. Not that I don't like them, it's just that our bedroom shares a wall with the spare bedroom, and I wouldn't want to keep them up all night. :D

Lars1701a
11-17-2008, 08:39 AM
While I've never had a good American car myself, I personally have to support the bailout because my FIL retired from GM, and I really don't want my inlaws to move in with us. Not that I don't like them, it's just that our bedroom shares a wall with the spare bedroom, and I wouldn't want to keep them up all night. :D


OR they keep you up all night :eek::eek::eek:

biccat
11-17-2008, 08:41 AM
OR they keep you up all night :eek::eek::eek:
Eew.

As far as I'm concerned, her parents only had sex once. With my two sisters, mine had sex three times.

This does discount the possibility of divine intervention, so I am willing to consider my parents only having had sex twice.

noonwitch
11-17-2008, 08:55 AM
I would like to see some kind of incentive package to help the auto companies help themselves-not necessarily a bailout, but some kind of incentive to make cars that people want to buy. I drive a Ford Focus, and it's a good car that gets decent mileage. I also got an X plan from my uncle, a retired Ford engineer. I think Mullaley will eventually save Ford, at a price, most likely. Ford should never have let William Clay Ford run the company. He couldn't even run a football team, why give him the big job? He's more of a PR guy, not a CEO type.

My state, Michigan, will be devastated by GM going bankrupt. It's not just the car company that will suffer-suppliers, dealerships, and so on will be impacted. I don't know if things could get worse in this state, but I don't really want to find out.

PoliCon
11-17-2008, 04:47 PM
No argument there.

It's time for term limits for these goons. They spend too much time on the Hill and they lose all sense of reality.
I've been saying that for YEARS. Add to that - the fact that the Founding Fathers were against and desperately did not want a political class because they knew how it would turn out. The FF wanted citizen legislators. But we have not had that in at least 100 years.

jeskibuff
11-17-2008, 05:52 PM
Sorry the aesthetics of my car offend you. :rolleyes: It's been a perfect commuting car, since I go about nine miles each way every day.
Strange.

I don't recall uttering a peep about aesthetics. Where'd THAT come from? :confused:

I think some recent Saturns are pretty decent looking: the Aura, Outlook and Sky.

But looks don't make a great car. GM just can't seem to build a car without lousy steering feel and overly soft suspensions. That combination alone makes for a very incompetent car, unable to get out of its own way. The manner in which people drive them attests to that incompetence. Certain laws ought to apply to incompetent cars, like they should only be allowed to be driven in the slow lane (which is to the right, by the way).

Goldwater
11-17-2008, 06:38 PM
A bailout would only delay GM's demise by about 5 years.

OwlMBA
11-17-2008, 07:02 PM
A bailout would only delay GM's demise by about 5 years.

5 months is more like it. they would burn through that first bailout in much less than a year, and need another one. And another one. And another one.

Unless they can figure out how to plug their cash leak, why would we give them money? I fail to see the logic behind pumping money into GM unless they can figure out how to return to some version of profitability someday. And without throwing out the Union, that will never happen. It is not financially possible outside of Toyota and Honda and VW suddenly falling off of the planet.

I mean this in all seriousness - the US automative industry is doomed. Period. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY chance at survival is the elimination of the Union. As long as they have to pay button-pushers $100k per year plus benefits to build poor-quality vehicles, they have no chance at competing against the imports. So we really only have three options:

- Taxpayer-funded bailouts in perpetuity. In other words, Nationalize them.
- Throw out the Unions and allow GM to pay its workers the market rate for their skills (probably about $10 an hour with minimal benefits)
- Let them go bankrupt

PoliCon
11-17-2008, 10:51 PM
A bailout would only delay GM's demise by about 5 years.and stick the us tax payers with paying the UAW assholes their golden medical coverage.

Ree
11-17-2008, 11:34 PM
This I have to disagree with on the one GM product I own. I have a 1997 Saturn SL2 that runs like a champ. Great little car, never any problems. Saturday morning I was driving home from the movies with a friend when some idiot blew through a red light and turned right in front of me. I couldn't avoid the collision and plowed into the side of his Toyota pick up truck at about 30 mph. After the collision I was surprised that the motor was still running as if nothing had happened. We pulled in to a parking lot to exchange info and inspect damage. The front body work on my car is mangled severely but there were no fluids leaking that I could see. After the police came and took a report I left the car there to be towed in the morning. When the tow truck got there the driver asked if I could start it up and back out so it would be easier to put on the truck. I was doubtful it would start but when I turned the key it fired up on the first try. Hopefully the insurance won't write the car off as totalled but I doubt it. I would recommed the Saturn with enthusiasm if anyone was looking for a car, new or used.
Which was prolly made in Lafayette IN, in what was a non union plant at the time.....

marinejcksn
11-17-2008, 11:44 PM
Eew.

As far as I'm concerned, her parents only had sex once. With my two sisters, mine had sex three times.

This does discount the possibility of divine intervention, so I am willing to consider my parents only having had sex twice.

Thats pretty funny. I think everyone thinks of their parents the same way, only did it to have the kids and never again. Icky.

Ree
11-17-2008, 11:45 PM
Thats pretty funny. I think everyone thinks of their parents the same way, only did it to have the kids and never again. Icky.
I don't...My parents were like rabbits....I am the oldest of 6...:eek:

marinejcksn
11-17-2008, 11:47 PM
5 months is more like it. they would burn through that first bailout in much less than a year, and need another one. And another one. And another one.

Unless they can figure out how to plug their cash leak, why would we give them money? I fail to see the logic behind pumping money into GM unless they can figure out how to return to some version of profitability someday. And without throwing out the Union, that will never happen. It is not financially possible outside of Toyota and Honda and VW suddenly falling off of the planet.

I mean this in all seriousness - the US automative industry is doomed. Period. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY chance at survival is the elimination of the Union. As long as they have to pay button-pushers $100k per year plus benefits to build poor-quality vehicles, they have no chance at competing against the imports. So we really only have three options:

- Taxpayer-funded bailouts in perpetuity. In other words, Nationalize them.
- Throw out the Unions and allow GM to pay its workers the market rate for their skills (probably about $10 an hour with minimal benefits)
- Let them go bankrupt

Bankruptcy is the answer. GM, Ford, Crystler will enter bankruptcy protection, be forced to re-organize and re-tool and in the end put out a much greater product at a better price. Big companies like these don't stay down because of bankruptcy, they come back better then ever. Congress needs to grow a pair (or borrow Pelousy's; her rocks are bigger then mine) and stop cowering in fear over the B word.

PoliCon
11-17-2008, 11:49 PM
Thats pretty funny. I think everyone thinks of their parents the same way, only did it to have the kids and never again. Icky.
My parents didn't have sex. We all came from the cabbage patch. :cool:

linda22003
11-18-2008, 06:07 AM
Strange.

I don't recall uttering a peep about aesthetics. Where'd THAT come from? :confused:

It was the only thing I could think of that you'd object to; I have no problem handling the car or its steering. Big "dad" cars may have soft suspensions, but the Saturn doesn't.

jeskibuff
11-18-2008, 05:52 PM
I think some recent Saturns are pretty decent looking: the Aura, Outlook and Sky.I retract my statement on the Aura. I took a closer look at two of them on the road today. They don't look bad from the side, but the back end is quite homely.

jeskibuff
11-18-2008, 05:55 PM
It was the only thing I could think of that you'd object to; I have no problem handling the car or its steering. Big "dad" cars may have soft suspensions, but the Saturn doesn't.The Saturns I've driven have all had that vague, imprecise GM steering. Let's revise that to say that the GM products I've driven have all had that vague, imprecise GM steering. If you haven't driven anything better, I guess you'd think there's nothing wrong with it. Take a BMW out for a test drive sometime...hey, even a Honda or Toyota (but not the Echo, please)!

KeepAmericaFree
11-18-2008, 06:19 PM
I know I will sound crazyfor saying this. But here goes....

The USW is being backed by the Democratic Socialists of America. The are a spin off of The New Party, both out of Chicago. The UAW V.P is a member. The DSA has been backing the union for many years now.
This is the same group that William Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dohrn belong to. It is also a group that has been backing Obama since his senate race. They also have several members in the congress.

BadCat
11-18-2008, 06:31 PM
You all remember a car called the Chevy Monza?

Had an upside down V6 in it believe. Was supposed to be "revolutionary" because of the upside down engine.
They didn't think about having to REMOVE the engine to replace the spark plugs.

Geniuses.

PoliCon
11-18-2008, 07:31 PM
I've always been fond of the attempt to market the chevy NOVA in south America - no one bothers to check to see what NOVA meant in spanish. NO VA means it doesn't Go. Andy they just couldn't figure out why they wouldn't sell.

linda22003
11-19-2008, 09:49 AM
If you haven't driven anything better, I guess you'd think there's nothing wrong with it.

Of course I've driven "better", but believe it or not, some of us don't care at all about cars, and just want to get to work and back in them. We save our large expenditures for things that aren't as boring as transportation. I've never understood the "love affair" some people have with what they drive. It's fine if you do, I have just never cared about cars.

Full-Auto
11-19-2008, 10:40 AM
The head of the UAW refuses to make any concessions. The average GM worker makes $78 an hour including benefits doing a job an 18 yr old high-school dropout could do with two days of training and $10 an hour.

The designers make horrible cars that nobody wants.

And now they are suffering the consequences.

Let them fail.

Let's be realistic here. GM makes some very good cars, like the Corvette. We must keep them alive so Corvettes continue to roll off the assembly line.

Now Ford, who cares? Let them sink.

I would gladly spend $25 billion in tax payer money to keep Chevy alive.

:D

marinejcksn
11-19-2008, 05:08 PM
Let's be realistic here. GM makes some very good cars, like the Corvette. We must keep them alive so Corvettes continue to roll off the assembly line.

Now Ford, who cares? Let them sink.

I would gladly spend $25 billion in tax payer money to keep Chevy alive.

:D

If they're getting a chunk of my tax bucks I better get a frickin ZR-1. :D