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GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 07:39 AM
Someone explain this to me.

Some Christian fundamentalists are now claiming that gold dust and gemstones fall upon them during prayer. They claim to get covered in gold dust and they claim the gemstones are heaven sent. Some claim that fillings are turned gold in their teeth as well.

Other Christian fundamentalists say that it's bunk - that no one has submitted dental xrays to prove the change - that the gold dust that has been tested has turned out to be plastic dust - etc etc

This is a new happening amongst the fundamentalists.

You tube #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WYDsnSeCVw)

You Tube #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaw-yJTDGa0)

Gemstones from heaven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyrjHIVlhc0)

I have heard (and seen) religious phenomenon such as rosaries turning gold (mine did) and I have seen a statue cry. Those things have been happening for hundreds of years and are rather well documented. So I understand that supernatural things happen and I am not against them happening - I'm not a mind-closed skeptic. However, this gold dust thing is rather new and is rather controversial.

Anyone out there know anything about this gold dust/gemstone thing?
Can you explain it to me? Thanks.

linda22003
12-08-2008, 07:54 AM
This is a new happening amongst the fundamentalists.


Yet another excellent reason not to be one.
I've never heard of this before.

GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 08:10 AM
I'm not a fundamentalist Linda. Not even close. And I don't intend on switching over.

But this new thing has cropped up and it's got me curious.

I'd like to understand what is ALLEGEDLY happening and why this new thing is going on.

If it turns out to be real - and I doubt it is - I wouldn't be changing my religious beliefs.

i just want to understand it ....

biccat
12-08-2008, 08:18 AM
Yet another excellent reason not to be one.
Agreed.

Who on earth would want gemstones and gold dust falling on them when they pray! :rolleyes:

linda22003
12-08-2008, 08:23 AM
Agreed.

Who on earth would want gemstones and gold dust falling on them when they pray! :rolleyes:

I'm Episcopalian, and we have plenty of access to gold and gems through jewelry stores, not to mention all the pieces we inherit.

jinxmchue
12-08-2008, 09:10 AM
Fundamentalists are probably the most skeptical Christian group when it comes to things like this.

GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Fundamentalists are probably the most skeptical Christian group when it comes to things like this.

From what I am reading, there is a big controversy with this amongst fundamentalists.
Some Fundamentalists believe this is real. Others think it's very fake.

I know fundamentalists in general are quick to point at crying statues and say 'fake' or 'diabolical'.

Just the fact that some of them think this gold dust and gemstone thing is real ... that's a 180 degree
turn from their anti-catholic statements of the past. Or perhaps, because it's them and not Catholics
then they are okay with it (anti-Catholic bias coming through).

I'm just trying to understand this thing.
It's something new and I've never heard of it before.

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Once again the fundamentalist term is being misused and misunderstood. A true fundamentalist would not buy in to the idea that gold dust and gems are raining down from heaven with out solid proof. Fundamentalist by and large believe that the age of large scale miracles passed with the apostolic age. Some of the fringe groups believe all sorts of strange things (snake handling and the drinking of poison) but this is not true of the large majority of orthodox fundamentalist (of which I am one). I am also an Episcopalian and there are fundamentalists in the Episcopal Church as well, although most of them are leaving due to church heresy and aligning themselves with the more fundamentalist providences of the Anglican Communion.

I guess I can consider all the conservatives here to be neo-cons become some conservatives are neo-cons.

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 09:17 AM
From what I am reading, there is a big controversy with this amongst fundamentalists.
Some Fundamentalists believe this is real. Others think it's very fake.

I know fundamentalists in general are quick to point at crying statues and say 'fake' or 'diabolical'.

Just the fact that some of them think this gold dust and gemstone thing is real ... that's a 180 degree
turn from their anti-catholic statements of the past. Or perhaps, because it's them and not Catholics
then they are okay with it (anti-Catholic bias coming through).

I'm just trying to understand this thing.
It's something new and I've never heard of it before.

It can't be too big of a controversy since I haven't heard of this before now and I keep myself pretty well informed on the goings on within the Christian religion.

Do you have other examples other than youtube which is not known to be a bastion of reality concerning this subject?

GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 09:18 AM
Once again the fundamentalist term is being misused and misunderstood.

I definately don't understand the word 'fundamentalist' then.
I'm going by what I'm reading.
The info is all over the place and I don't understand it at all.
That's why I'm asking.

GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 09:22 AM
It can't be too big of a controversy since I haven't heard of this before now and I keep myself pretty well informed on the goings on within the Christian religion.

Then this one must have snuck by you.

Binny Hinn and other tele-evangelist types are into this.

Some group called 'the Toronto group' - a bunch of folks into something called 'the Toronto Blessing' (I think) are into it as well. Not just that laugh 'blessing' thing - but the gold dust and gemstones. There are pockets of these things springing up here and there.

Since you don't think the term 'fundamentalist' should be used with this ... give me one that I can use because I have no idea what to label this bunch that is claiming gold dust and gemstones. They SEEM to be fundamentalists to me - but I'll go by whatever label you want me to use.

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 09:24 AM
I definately don't understand the word 'fundamentalist' then.
I'm going by what I'm reading.
The info is all over the place and I don't understand it at all.
That's why I'm asking.

Fundamentalists believe in a basic literal reading of the Bible. They do, however, try to differentiate between when the Bible is speaking literally and when it is speaking allegorically. For example when Jesus says things like plucking out an eye if you lust, he is speaking allegorically and is trying to stress how bad lust is. However when he says that one must repent of one sins and be baptized in the Holy Spirit he is speaking literally. Both of these are fundamentalist view points. Since Christ never said that any thing like gold and gems would rain down on our heads during prayer then we can pretty much assume that fundamentalist won't accept it.

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 09:30 AM
Then this one must have snuck by you.

Binny Hinn and other tele-evangelist types are into this.

Some group called 'the Toronto group' - a bunch of folks into something called 'the Toronto Blessing' (I think) are into it as well. Not just that laugh 'blessing' thing - but the gold dust and gemstones. There are pockets of these things springing up here and there.

Since you don't think the term 'fundamentalist' should be used with this ... give me one that I can use because I have no idea what to label this bunch that is claiming gold dust and gemstones. They SEEM to be fundamentalists to me - but I'll go by whatever label you want me to use.

All you needed to say was Benny Hinn and I would have known to file this as rubbish. Benny Hinn also said that God told him that before the end of the 90's all the gays would be either dead or converted to Christianity and become heterosexuals. That little prediction didn't exactly work out. The bible tells us how to recognize a false prophet. Benny Hinn is a false prophet and a false teacher.

GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 09:39 AM
So then these folks are christians but have broken off from the traditional fundamentalist christian groups and are sort of on their own? THAT I can understand. Some are claiming to be 'baptist' or 'assemblies of god' but they have veered from the traditional teachings of those churches?

Kinda like when Catholics in the Pacific island crucify themselves on Good Friday - that's not Catholic teaching and they are off doing their own thing???

If so - you have answered one of my questions. I was wondering if this is a new teaching or a new thing that is accepted and pushed by a generally known denomination.

These are some of the names that are associated with 'gold dust' - Rodney Howard-Browne, Randy Clark, John Arnott, John Kilpatrick, Steve Hill, Colin Dye, Sandy Millar, Gerald Coates, David Pytches, Terry Virgo, Benny Hinn, David Yonggi Cho, Kenneth Copeland, and Morris Cerullo. (I only recognize the Benny Hinn name).

There are other small churches scattered throughout America and Canada that are claiming this dusting thing. I've seen the videos and read accounts. It's not isolated.

It seems to be 'up and coming' - or perhaps it's just going to be a fad that will come and go.

I was just wondering if anyone had heard of this - or experienced this - and what the story is.

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 09:51 AM
So then these folks are christians but have broken off from the traditional fundamentalist christian groups and are sort of on their own? THAT I can understand. Some are claiming to be 'baptist' or 'assemblies of god' but they have veered from the traditional teachings of those churches?

Kinda like when Catholics in the Pacific island crucify themselves on Good Friday - that's not Catholic teaching and they are off doing their own thing???

If so - you have answered one of my questions. I was wondering if this is a new teaching or a new thing that is accepted and pushed by a generally known denomination.

These are some of the names that are associated with 'gold dust' - Rodney Howard-Browne, Randy Clark, John Arnott, John Kilpatrick, Steve Hill, Colin Dye, Sandy Millar, Gerald Coates, David Pytches, Terry Virgo, Benny Hinn, David Yonggi Cho, Kenneth Copeland, and Morris Cerullo. (I only recognize the Benny Hinn name).

There are other small churches scattered throughout America and Canada that are claiming this dusting thing. I've seen the videos and read accounts. It's not isolated.

It seems to be 'up and coming' - or perhaps it's just going to be a fad that will come and go.

I was just wondering if anyone had heard of this - or experienced this - and what the story is.

I am not sure if they are charlotans or not. They may seriously believe what they are experiencing. Belief is a funny thing sometimes. Benny Hinn on the otherhand is a false prophet and anyone who associates too closely to him is suspect in my mind. I try to judge the message by the individual but warning flags are raised by association. If someone is hanging out with Osama Bin Laden it is safe to conclude that he doesn't have your best interests at heart.

linda22003
12-08-2008, 09:53 AM
All you needed to say was Benny Hinn and I would have known to file this as rubbish. .... Benny Hinn is a false prophet and a false teacher.

And his fashion sense is appalling.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/03/02/bennyhinn_narrowweb__300x387,0.jpg

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 09:59 AM
And his fashion sense is appalling.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/03/02/bennyhinn_narrowweb__300x387,0.jpg

He looks like he should be instructing rock stars and actors in yoga and meditation.

noonwitch
12-08-2008, 01:37 PM
I think it's interesting from a group behavior observation level, but I also think that the woman in the first video and her friend are faking it somehow. I don't know who she is, but she comes across to me as a charlatan-like Benny Hinn.

I wouldn't ever say that this phenomenon was beyond God's abilities or powers- I have heard of rosaries being dipped into holy water at certain sites (like Lourdes) and changing from glass to gold or silver. The people involved in those situations were also healed of physical ailments, and believed that the changed rosaries were confirmation of those healings. I believe that the Holy Spirit heals people, I've witnessed it and have participated in laying hands on people. But I'd never be able to convince a skeptic that it happened.

The Night Owl
12-08-2008, 01:49 PM
Anyone out there know anything about this gold dust/gemstone thing?
Can you explain it to me? Thanks.

In my opinion, claims of gold dust and gemstones appearing as a result of prayer are a natural extension of prosperity theology...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

...and are unsubstantiated. Making substances or small objects seem to appear out of thin air is the kind of thing even amateur magicians can accomplish.

My advice to you: If your preacher starts making claims about gold dust or gemstones appearing out of thin air, walk away while keeping a firm grip on your wallet or purse.

M21
12-08-2008, 01:50 PM
More appropriately known as the "Word of Faith" Movement rather than Fundamentalists.

Many of the nations most well known fundamentalist Preachers and Teachers denounce Word-Faith theology as aberrant and contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

The Night Owl
12-08-2008, 02:15 PM
Monday, November 10, 2008
Sylvania Machado: "Gold Dust" exposed as a Plastic Glitter Parlor Trick.

Source; http://www.voici-les-miracles.com/article-2190975.html

I have met Sylvania Machado, and have friends that host her when she comes to the US. I have seen the “gold dust” and the “oil”

The gold dust is not gold dust, but plastic glitter. It is all done by sleight of hand.

She never praises Jesus, Worships, or declares that Jesus Christ is her Saviour.

The oil is a homemade concoction of essential oils in olive oil.

...

http://riverforum.blogspot.com/2008/11/sylvania-machado-gold-dust-exposed-as.html

Molon Labe
12-08-2008, 02:33 PM
All you needed to say was Benny Hinn and I would have known to file this as rubbish. Benny Hinn also said that God told him that before the end of the 90's all the gays would be either dead or converted to Christianity and become heterosexuals. That little prediction didn't exactly work out. The bible tells us how to recognize a false prophet. Benny Hinn is a false prophet and a false teacher.

Agreed. Hinn is horrible and a disgrace to Christianity.

As far as this gold dust phenomena:
In my experience, if it wasn't something Jesus was overly concerned with or taught...then you might want to check out if it's scriptural.

I can't remember too many passages about gold dust.

GrumpyOldLady
12-08-2008, 04:03 PM
More appropriately known as the "Word of Faith" Movement rather than Fundamentalists. .

Excellent! Thank you for the clarification. My apologies to any fundamentalists out there.
That's why I asked. I have no idea.

Okay - the "Word of Faith" movement is into this gold dust and gemstone thing.

The Night Owl
12-08-2008, 04:10 PM
More appropriately known as the "Word of Faith" Movement rather than Fundamentalists.

Many of the nations most well known fundamentalist Preachers and Teachers denounce Word-Faith theology as aberrant and contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Word of Faith churches are what I would describe as fundamentalist churches.

noonwitch
12-08-2008, 04:19 PM
Agreed. Hinn is horrible and a disgrace to Christianity.

As far as this gold dust phenomena:
In my experience, if it wasn't something Jesus was overly concerned with or taught...then you might want to check out if it's scriptural.

I can't remember too many passages about gold dust.


But plenty that condemn placing the value of things over people. Why would God shower someone with gold dust, unless it was a way of accomplishing a greater goal, like healing that person?


Zeus showered Danae with gold, but that was just his fun way of fathering Perseus, sort of like how he turned himself into a swan to seduce Leda (and father Helen of Troy and Clymentestra). But the God of Jesus and Judiaism is not that kind of randy God, except for the one occasion. Even then, he sent his angel to do it for him, or to announce that it was already done-I've never been real clear on the process of the conception of Jesus, and really never was all that concerned about the specifics.

Gingersnap
12-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Let's clarify a few things for the sake of discussion. Fundamentalism in the Christian context springs from a movement at the beginning of the last century to define core Christian doctrines that all "normative" Christians share to one degree or another.


Inerrancy of the Scriptures
The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14)
The doctrine of substitutionary atonement by God's grace and through human faith (Hebrews 9)
The bodily resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 28)
The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming)*
(swiped from Wiki)

Inerrancy is not the same a literal view. Usually, it means that a believer cannot be deceived by scripture in terms of faith and morals although some portions of scripture are more metaphorical than journalistic.

All traditional Christians share these views. The Orthodox church believes in these, the Roman Catholics, all the liturgical Protestants, and most of the Baptists and Bible-believing churches. In short, all Christians aside from "progressive" Christians and few small denominations.

The phenomena you describe isn't new and it isn't much thought about outside the churches promoting it.

Before fillings, people had their eyeglasses or rosaries or whatever turn to "gold".

The recent phenomena is a part of the whole slain-in-the-spirit movement that started in Toronto in the late 80s/early 90s. That movement has undergone intensely negative criticism with Christianity. It's not representative of ordinary Christian thought, it isn't widespread, and we think it's just about as hinkey as you do. It doesn't have anything to do with Christian fundamentalism.

Molon Labe
12-08-2008, 04:39 PM
But plenty that condemn placing the value of things over people. Why would God shower someone with gold dust, unless it was a way of accomplishing a greater goal, like healing that person?


Zeus showered Danae with gold, but that was just his fun way of fathering Perseus, sort of like how he turned himself into a swan to seduce Leda (and father Helen of Troy and Clymentestra). But the God of Jesus and Judiaism is not that kind of randy God, except for the one occasion. Even then, he sent his angel to do it for him, or to announce that it was already done-I've never been real clear on the process of the conception of Jesus, and really never was all that concerned about the specifics.

I'm not sure I follow. Could you clarify?

FlaGator
12-08-2008, 08:00 PM
Word of Faith churches are what I would describe as fundamentalist churches.

That you because you have an incorrect view of what fundamentalism. Think of the word fundamental in mind. With no religious slant what does fundamental mean?

GrumpyOldLady
12-09-2008, 09:20 AM
Before fillings, people had their eyeglasses or rosaries or whatever turn to "gold".

Yes. My rosary turned gold. So did my husbands.
I am not opposed to miracles and God using different means to direct people.
I am open to 'gold dust' etc falling on those in deep prayer.
I believe it COULD happen. God can do anything He wants to.

I just doubt these are authentic.

This gold dust and gemstone thing is new. Rosaries turning gold is very old.

I just wanted to know more about it. I'm trying to figure it out.

And I wasn't meaning to be critical or snooty about 'fundamentalists'.

I'm just trying to understand. This stuff isn't in my universe of worship or understanding.

Gingersnap
12-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Yes. My rosary turned gold. So did my husbands.
I am not opposed to miracles and God using different means to direct people.
I am open to 'gold dust' etc falling on those in deep prayer.
I believe it COULD happen. God can do anything He wants to.

I just doubt these are authentic.

This gold dust and gemstone thing is new. Rosaries turning gold is very old.

I just wanted to know more about it. I'm trying to figure it out.

And I wasn't meaning to be critical or snooty about 'fundamentalists'.

I'm just trying to understand. This stuff isn't in my universe of worship or understanding.

The gold phenomena is not new. That was my point. It goes back for centuries. The only new part is that Protestants are involved and even that isn't very new. Only the gilded objects change - the gold and gemstones remain constant.

I don't know or care if this phenomenon is real. I know enough about the churches and pastors promoting it to know that they are marching off track in terms of theology. All these group rely heavily on contemporary prophecy, personal visions and "understandings", and in private revelation.

That alone is enough to make me wary. God's word isn't cloaked in some kind of arcane code that is known to a handful of prophets. It's clear and blunt. Anyone can access it at any time without the experience of being slain in the spirit or having that word interpreted through private revelation.