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gator
06-20-2008, 09:07 AM
If that moron Obama wins the General Election and has both houses of Congress all kinds of bad things are going to happen. One of them is that the military is going to be destroyed. It was hurt bad enough with Carter and Clinton but you ainít seen nuttin yet until you see what Obama will do.

Not only will be cut and run in Iraq but I suspect Obama will raid the defense budget to pay off his sleazy special interest groups. I suspect many defense program will be cut back or eliminated. Training will suffer.

The biggest problem I can see is that American middle class kids wonít join the service in this all volunteer military. I suspect troop morale will decline significantly and the enlistment rate will drop. Fewer people will reenlist. Everybody will be trying to get out.

Like with Clinton brave men and women who served our country honorable will not even hang their Honorable Discharge papers on the wall because they will be ashamed to have Obamaís name on it.

I think he will pretty well destroy the military. Of course being the dishonest Liberals that he is he will blame it on Bush, or something.

Phillygirl
06-20-2008, 09:14 AM
While I agree with you, I'm surprised to see that you believe leaving Iraq is cutting and running. I would think that is the one positive you can find from Obama's potential presidency.

gator
06-20-2008, 09:19 AM
While I agree with you, I'm surprised to see that you believe leaving Iraq is cutting and running. I would think that is the one positive you can find from Obama's potential presidency.

I have said many times recently that I don't have a clue why we invaded Iraq but since we are there we need to complete the mission then extract ourselves from Middle East politics.

lacarnut
06-20-2008, 09:39 AM
If that moron Obama wins the General Election and has both houses of Congress all kinds of bad things are going to happen. One of them is that the military is going to be destroyed. It was hurt bad enough with Carter and Clinton but you ainít seen nuttin yet until you see what Obama will do.

I think he will pretty well destroy the military. Of course being the dishonest Liberals that he is he will blame it on Bush, or something.

I agree with that plus he will socialize every aspect of our society.

dixierat
06-20-2008, 09:56 AM
I have said many times recently that I don't have a clue why we invaded Iraq but since we are there we need to complete the mission then extract ourselves from Middle East politics.


I agree with all you say, but the problems associated with a complete political extarction are huge. Especially since we'll have a strong ally in Iraq, once the mission is complete.

I was in the Army under Nixon, Ford, and Carter while on AD. The minimum I expect fom and Obama administration would be cuts in training and weapons development. The quality of the force will be reduced because anyone who can retire will retire. Many NCOs and offciers with less than 10 years service will probably get out as well since they won't see a bright future in tehir chosen field.

I see no good for the country in general iof Obama is elected.

:cool:

Phillygirl
06-20-2008, 10:04 AM
I have said many times recently that I don't have a clue why we invaded Iraq but since we are there we need to complete the mission then extract ourselves from Middle East politics.

We will never be able to completely extract ourselves from Middle East politics.

gator
06-20-2008, 10:23 AM
We will never be able to completely extract ourselves from Middle East politics.

Not if we continue like we are now and make the security of Israel the cornerstone of American foreign policy.

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 10:50 AM
Obama will make Clintonís dismemberment of our Armed Forces seem like childís play. If heí allowed to become Commander in Chief the US Marines will be deployed with flowers in their hair.:rolleyes:

AmPat
06-20-2008, 11:02 AM
Obama will make Clintonís dismemberment of our Armed Forces seem like childís play. If heí allowed to become Commander in Chief the US Marines will be deployed with flowers in their hair.:rolleyes:

Their is no doubt in my mind. He will be the next liberal chink in the armor of the shield of the U.S.A. Liberals in the USA have succeeded in defeating only one armed force, our own. We were decimated under the Klintoon regime. Half our Navy, Half our Airforce, and half our Army in less than 8 years.

No other force is more destructive to the United States military than a Liberal President.

22 years AD and counting. I will not tolerate service under anoher anti-American/anti-military Liberal. I am not alone either. many of my peers will follow suit. Then lets see those limp wristed types crap their pants when the real men no longer man the walls in their defense.:cool:

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 11:09 AM
With the asshole Chinese coming on line with some supposedly respectable submarine hardware - this timing could be the worst in decades for the United States Navy.

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 11:34 AM
The boats that Wal-Mart buys:

First of all, with two 094 SSBNs Ė nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines Ė entering service, the overall combat strength of the No. 1 Nuclear Submarine Flotilla based in Qingdao, on the eastern Shandong Peninsula, has been greatly improved. As a consequence, there is a legitimate need to reinforce air defense and aerial interception capability in this region.

http://upiasiaonline.com/Security/2008/06/20/chinas_military_build-up_opposite_korea/7969/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/type_94-line.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/images/type-094-pic1.jpg

Molon Labe
06-20-2008, 11:53 AM
The biggest problem I can see is that American middle class kids wonít join the service in this all volunteer military. I suspect troop morale will decline significantly and the enlistment rate will drop. Fewer people will reenlist. Everybody will be trying to get out.

The military has already lessened standards in order to meet demands for it's current missions.
I'm not totally against a leaner more efficient force...especially our overseas prescence, but what Obama will do is reduce the size of the military in the wrong areas. Liberals don't tend to listen to the military leadership when it comes to military matters.

biccat
06-20-2008, 01:42 PM
Not if we continue like we are now and make the security of Israel the cornerstone of American foreign policy.
Israel aside, there is still the issues of dealing with OPEC, the geography of the ME with respect to shipping lanes, and particularly the fact that the three major world religions have their seats in the region, with Islam having the strongest presence.

The Middle East is going to be a headache unless we can finally convince the theocracies of the region to accept modern concepts of democracy and equality.

LogansPapa
06-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Screw the Strait of Hormuz and everything that comes through it.

That is where our military, in convoys of Iraqi oil, etc. - is most vulnerable - not because of our lack of self defense for our ship and planes, but busting one of those fat crude cows open might lead to a large sea of fire.

The key to this problem is cutting off the dependence on the oil that comes through that choke point. Geography has always been key to every military campaign and not having to go there negates that issue. There are other sources, domestic and other foreign countries - that can be tapped.

If every major coastal town did their part like the one I reside in - problem solved.;)

CLibertarian
06-20-2008, 03:38 PM
It's been a pattern. The last two Democrat Presidents gutted the military and their Republican successors had to rebuild it at a much higher cost than it would have to maintain it as it was.

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 06:19 PM
It's been a pattern. The last two Democrat Presidents gutted the military and their Republican successors had to rebuild it at a much higher cost than it would have to maintain it as it was.

It's worse than that. Obama is unable to even grasp that we face a fundamental threat, much less its nature. The basic structure of warfare is changing, as non-state actors (terrorists, criminal cartels, tribal chieftains, warlords, etc.) fill in the vacuums in those parts of the world where established states are incapable of enforcing their will, or in collusion with those who would prey upon them. The conventional states that oppose us do so through surrogates that can act in the interests of their patrons while providing them with plausible deniability. China, for example, is all over the global Jihadi movement. China subsidizes the North Korean weapons that flow to Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda through Iran. China also provided nuclear instruction to Pakistan, which was spread to Iran. But that's just one example. The entire world is riddled with small, deadly groups of losers who are subsidized by monstrous states for their own ends. North Korea supplies rockets to Hezbollah, nuclear tech to Iran and provides arms and equipment to Hamas and anyone else who is willing to shoot at Americans or Israelis. Narcotraficantes in Colombia are supplied by Hugo Chavez, who also provides them with safe havens, while they, in turn, work with Islamist terror groups and communist terrorists such as the Sendero Luminoso.

Imagine that a terrorist wants to enter the US through the southern border. He will be recruited from a tribe in Afghanistan or Pakistan, train in Syria or Lebanon, then travel to Venezuela, where he is received by the Iranian embassy staff. He is housed by the Venezuelans until he can be escorted by Colombian drug smugglers to the Mexican border, where he is greeted by Zapatista rebels who place him with human traffickers for the border crossing. The ideological differences between these groups are not so great that they will not form alliances in order to attack their common enemy, namely us, because each of them gets something for their efforts. The smugglers get money, the terrorists get to strike a blow to advance the global jihad, the tribal chieftains gain weapons with which they can dominate their enclaves, the communists disrupt the west and the traffickers get to indulge their darkest impulses with the people who have been turned over to them (except, of course, for our terrorist). Each group works with, and protects, the others, sharing information and facilities and providing each other with critical support.

BTW, this is not new. We've fought warlords, international criminal cartels and Islamist insurgents before, but the things that make this a more deadly time are that most governments are incapable of marshalling the will to address the threat, and those that do are routinely subjected to the opprobrium of those who won't. Thus, when Hamas and Hezbollah fling rockets at Israeli cities, it is Israel that is attacked for defending itself. When 3,000 Americans are murdered in one day by terrorists, the major powers of the world are more frightened by what we might do in response than they are by the fact of the initial carnage. Also, the networks of criminal, terrorist or tribal organizations are far better organized and capable of exploiting the weaknesses of the lumbering governments that they seek to undermine, as well as being far more capable of playing the media.

Second, the emergence of the internet and globalization has taken regional conflicts and expanded their scope in ways that no one could have anticipated. Non-state actors can communicate over borders, oceans, mountains and any other barriers that nations can build, and follow up that communication with action. Grievances (real or imagined) against the west result in terror within formerly safe enclaves. Arabs who lived in Afghan mountain caves were able to bring down skyscrapers in Manhattan. Hate crosses borders more easily than goods.

Finally, the assumption by western liberals that these groups want to live in peace is fatally wrong. Peace does nothing for these kinds of men. Violence provides them with the means to satisfy their deepest, darkest cravings for power, money, women or just more violence. An Abu Musab Al Zarqawi was a petty sadistic thug, rotting in jail after jail in Jordan, until Al Qaeda turned his propensity for beheading innocents into a recruiting tool. Pablo Escobar was an impoverished peasant until he learned that decadent westerners will pay through their noses to have powder to put up them. Mahmoud Ahmedinejad was just another dopey college student until the US Embassy takeover, which made him into a romantic revolutionary and absolute ruler of Iran, just as Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Robespierre, Hugo Chavez, Che Guevara and a host of other losers were transformed by revolutionary violence into dictators whose power allowed them to indulge their worst impulses, and for every one of them, there are hundreds of thousands of wannabes who seek the same power (Bill Ayers, anyone?). These men came to power and glory through violence, and they will not willingly relinquish the means of their glory, no matter what you offer them.

That's what Obama doesn't get, and that's why he is the wrong answer.

gator
06-20-2008, 06:56 PM
Thus, when Hamas and Hezbollah fling rockets at Israeli cities, it is Israel that is attacked for defending itself.

Yea, right. These goddamn Israelis kill Palestinians and other Arab women and children, take land away, institute an apartheid government, brutalize the people and then claim they are the victims when the people fight back.

You have a very distorted view of morality.

The Palestinians are the oppressed people not the fucking Israeli, you imbecile.

If you were any kind of a man at all you would fight back yourself if you were a Palestinian and were oppressed by the likes of the Israelis. Or maybe you would just accept them being your masters.

You have really been drinking that NeoCon pro Israel Kool Aid, haven’t you?

cclanofirish
06-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Yea, right. 1.) These goddamn Israelis kill Palestinians and other Arab women and children.



2.) They take land away

The land is rightfully Israel's...Genesis 15:18 says:

"On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates. A giant landmass encompassing parts of Egypt as well as significant portions of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq was promised to Abraham's descendants. Abraham had two sons - Ishmael and Isaac (he had other sons from his wife after Sarah) and I will focus on those two sons. Clearly the descendants of Abraham that will possess and own this land would be from Isaac. Genesis 17:19 says: Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. More than 2,500 years later Islam made a stark revelation that the beneficiary of this covenant is Ishmael and not Isaac. The Palestinians have a bizarre claim that they are owners of Israel and that they should have their own nation - Palestine."

This assertion by "Palestinians" is crap.



3.) Institute an apartheid government

That is a point worthy of true debate, whereas your other assertions are do not even closely resemble logical thought.



4.) Brutalize the people and then claim they are the victims when the people fight back.

Again I ask....who started the fight, and why is Israel held to a different standard by you as related to self defense of their land?



5.) You have really been drinking that NeoCon pro Israel Kool Aid, havenít you?

Absolutely!

Odysseus
06-20-2008, 11:29 PM
Yea, right. These goddamn Israelis kill Palestinians and other Arab women and children, take land away, institute an apartheid government, brutalize the people and then claim they are the victims when the people fight back.
You have a very distorted view of morality.
The Palestinians are the oppressed people not the fucking Israeli, you imbecile.
If you were any kind of a man at all you would fight back yourself if you were a Palestinian and were oppressed by the likes of the Israelis. Or maybe you would just accept them being your masters.
You have really been drinking that NeoCon pro Israel Kool Aid, havenít you?

Out of five paragraphs of analysis of the changing nature of warfare in the face of new technological, social and demographic trends, you fixated on one line about Israel to the exclusion of everything else, and that's your response?
What the hell is wrong with you?

Are you so consumed with hate that any mention of Israel must trigger a tirade that would embarass a Tourette's Syndrome patient? Get some help. Seriously.

And for the love of God, find a new catchphrase. "NeoCon Kool Aid" wasn't particularly clever the first hundred times that you used it, and it's not getting any better with repetition.

gator
06-20-2008, 11:48 PM
Out of five paragraphs of analysis of the changing nature of warfare in the face of new technological, social and demographic trends, you fixated on one line about Israel to the exclusion of everything else, and that's your response?
What the hell is wrong with you?

Are you so consumed with hate that any mention of Israel must trigger a tirade that would embarass a Tourette's Syndrome patient? Get some help. Seriously.

And for the love of God, find a new catchphrase. "NeoCon Kool Aid" wasn't particularly clever the first hundred times that you used it, and it's not getting any better with repetition.

By the way, look at the post above. We already have the kid invoking religion as an reason to support Israel. It happens in almost every thread.

If you are going to say dumb things about Israel then I will respond appropriately.

Odysseus
06-21-2008, 12:11 AM
By the way, look at the post above. We already have the kid invoking religion as an reason to support Israel. It happens in almost every thread.
If you are going to say dumb things about Israel then I will respond appropriately.

If you consider your responses appropriate, then I'd like to have a long talk with whoever it is who feeds you your medications. They need to up the dose.

gator
06-21-2008, 09:03 AM
If you consider your responses appropriate, then I'd like to have a long talk with whoever it is who feeds you your medications. They need to up the dose.

Just because my responses don't vomit back the pro Israel Kool Aid that you drink don't mean they are not appropriate.

How about supporting the best interest of your country for a change and not some brutal scumbag Middle East country that has done great harm to America?

Goldwater
06-21-2008, 09:26 AM
Anyone see Obama's speech to AIPAC? Talk about a pander.

ReaganForRus
06-21-2008, 09:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl32Y7wDVDs&feature=related

enough said

ReaganForRus
06-21-2008, 09:42 AM
It's worse than that. Obama is unable to even grasp that we face a fundamental threat, much less its nature. The basic structure of warfare is changing, as non-state actors (terrorists, criminal cartels, tribal chieftains, warlords, etc.) fill in the vacuums in those parts of the world where established states are incapable of enforcing their will, or in collusion with those who would prey upon them. The conventional states that oppose us do so through surrogates that can act in the interests of their patrons while providing them with plausible deniability. China, for example, is all over the global Jihadi movement. China subsidizes the North Korean weapons that flow to Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda through Iran. China also provided nuclear instruction to Pakistan, which was spread to Iran. But that's just one example. The entire world is riddled with small, deadly groups of losers who are subsidized by monstrous states for their own ends. North Korea supplies rockets to Hezbollah, nuclear tech to Iran and provides arms and equipment to Hamas and anyone else who is willing to shoot at Americans or Israelis. Narcotraficantes in Colombia are supplied by Hugo Chavez, who also provides them with safe havens, while they, in turn, work with Islamist terror groups and communist terrorists such as the Sendero Luminoso.

Imagine that a terrorist wants to enter the US through the southern border. He will be recruited from a tribe in Afghanistan or Pakistan, train in Syria or Lebanon, then travel to Venezuela, where he is received by the Iranian embassy staff. He is housed by the Venezuelans until he can be escorted by Colombian drug smugglers to the Mexican border, where he is greeted by Zapatista rebels who place him with human traffickers for the border crossing. The ideological differences between these groups are not so great that they will not form alliances in order to attack their common enemy, namely us, because each of them gets something for their efforts. The smugglers get money, the terrorists get to strike a blow to advance the global jihad, the tribal chieftains gain weapons with which they can dominate their enclaves, the communists disrupt the west and the traffickers get to indulge their darkest impulses with the people who have been turned over to them (except, of course, for our terrorist). Each group works with, and protects, the others, sharing information and facilities and providing each other with critical support.

BTW, this is not new. We've fought warlords, international criminal cartels and Islamist insurgents before, but the things that make this a more deadly time are that most governments are incapable of marshalling the will to address the threat, and those that do are routinely subjected to the opprobrium of those who won't. Thus, when Hamas and Hezbollah fling rockets at Israeli cities, it is Israel that is attacked for defending itself. When 3,000 Americans are murdered in one day by terrorists, the major powers of the world are more frightened by what we might do in response than they are by the fact of the initial carnage. Also, the networks of criminal, terrorist or tribal organizations are far better organized and capable of exploiting the weaknesses of the lumbering governments that they seek to undermine, as well as being far more capable of playing the media.

Second, the emergence of the internet and globalization has taken regional conflicts and expanded their scope in ways that no one could have anticipated. Non-state actors can communicate over borders, oceans, mountains and any other barriers that nations can build, and follow up that communication with action. Grievances (real or imagined) against the west result in terror within formerly safe enclaves. Arabs who lived in Afghan mountain caves were able to bring down skyscrapers in Manhattan. Hate crosses borders more easily than goods.

Finally, the assumption by western liberals that these groups want to live in peace is fatally wrong. Peace does nothing for these kinds of men. Violence provides them with the means to satisfy their deepest, darkest cravings for power, money, women or just more violence. An Abu Musab Al Zarqawi was a petty sadistic thug, rotting in jail after jail in Jordan, until Al Qaeda turned his propensity for beheading innocents into a recruiting tool. Pablo Escobar was an impoverished peasant until he learned that decadent westerners will pay through their noses to have powder to put up them. Mahmoud Ahmedinejad was just another dopey college student until the US Embassy takeover, which made him into a romantic revolutionary and absolute ruler of Iran, just as Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Robespierre, Hugo Chavez, Che Guevara and a host of other losers were transformed by revolutionary violence into dictators whose power allowed them to indulge their worst impulses, and for every one of them, there are hundreds of thousands of wannabes who seek the same power (Bill Ayers, anyone?). These men came to power and glory through violence, and they will not willingly relinquish the means of their glory, no matter what you offer them.

That's what Obama doesn't get, and that's why he is the wrong answer.

very well said

namvet
06-21-2008, 12:18 PM
if Osama wins i hope our entire military cuts and runs................

gator
06-21-2008, 12:24 PM
Anyone see Obama's speech to AIPAC? Talk about a pander.

All three of the candidates got on the pro Israel bandwagon. There is a lot of money in that lobby and no politician is going to upset that honey wagon. That is the main reason we will never do the moral thing and get out of the business of supporting a brutal Middle East apartheid government.

It was funny to see Hillary Clinton back when she was running for Senator. She had said a few things critical of Israel while First Lady. As soon as she started running for office in New York she changed her tune big time. All of a sudden she was Israel's biggest supporter along side Chuck Shumer. All politicians are like that.

gator
06-21-2008, 12:27 PM
if Osama wins i hope our entire military cuts and runs................

I am almost inclined to agree with you. We need to send a message to the Left Wingers that we are not going to use the military for a UN "Meals on Wheels" mission.

If the Left wants a military then they should join.

namvet
06-21-2008, 12:33 PM
I am almost inclined to agree with you. We need to send a message to the Left Wingers that we are not going to use the military for a UN "Meals on Wheels" mission.

If the Left wants a military then they should join.

Osama's military is at the UN. like Klinton he will rely on the UN for our national security. and another even bigger 9-11

gator
06-21-2008, 12:38 PM
Osama's military is at the UN. like Klinton he will rely on the UN for our national security. and another even bigger 9-11

If Obama gets elected then the Left Wingers can defend America. We will see how that works out. Maybe that would be a good lesson.

namvet
06-21-2008, 12:44 PM
If Obama gets elected then the Left Wingers can defend America. We will see how that works out. Maybe that would be a good lesson.

I just found out that Obama has said if bin laden is captured alive he will be tried here in the US. should we allow a high profile terrorist into this country for trial ????

riverwalker
06-21-2008, 01:33 PM
obama will inspire the military like he inspires the rest of the country. all your wingnut fears will prove unfounded, just like your belief that the Iraq war would bring democracy and oil to all.

how many times do you have t be proven wrong before you get out of the prediction bizness?

gator
06-21-2008, 01:54 PM
obama will inspire the military like he inspires the rest of the country. all your wingnut fears will prove unfounded, just like your belief that the Iraq war would bring democracy and oil to all.

how many times do you have t be proven wrong before you get out of the prediction bizness?

The military is full of middle class white kids. The ones that voted 85% - 15% against Obama in the Heartland America Democrat Primaries. That is not even including the Republicans. They will bail on the commie in an instant. Obama will have a tremendous problem on his hands with the military.

You do know that the military will not function with only Black cooks, don't you?

Odysseus
06-21-2008, 02:03 PM
Just because my responses don't vomit back the pro Israel Kool Aid that you drink don't mean they are not appropriate.
How about supporting the best interest of your country for a change and not some brutal scumbag Middle East country that has done great harm to America?

I do support the best interest of my country. I'm a Soldier. What are you doing for America, besides attacking her allies and insulting those who don't share your bigoted worldview?

Zathras
06-21-2008, 02:17 PM
obama will inspire the military like he inspires the rest of the country. all your wingnut fears will prove unfounded, just like your belief that the Iraq war would bring democracy and oil to all.

how many times do you have t be proven wrong before you get out of the prediction bizness?


Ooooh, a new chew toy.

gator
06-21-2008, 02:23 PM
I do support the best interest of my country. I'm a Soldier. What are you doing for America, besides attacking her allies and insulting those who don't share your bigoted worldview?

Don't give any of your little lectures. I was serving my country probably before you were in grade school.

You really need to think about the harm our so called "ally" is doing to this country. Everything from bribing our politicians so they can have money to pulling us into a perpetual war for their own security. Let us not forget spying and then selling the information to our enemies so they can get a little more money..

Donít they teach officers to think a little bit nowadays or do you have a problem dong that?

It is one thing for a politician to be on the side of the Israelis when the Israelis give them money but I would hope that at least one person in the military could see through that bullshit.

lacarnut
06-21-2008, 03:55 PM
obama will inspire the military like he inspires the rest of the country. all your wingnut fears will prove unfounded, just like your belief that the Iraq war would bring democracy and oil to all.

how many times do you have t be proven wrong before you get out of the prediction bizness?

How many times have you fallen off a turnip truck on your head because your prediction of Obama even getting to the W.H. is a theoretical dream. McCain is going to wind your wing-nut Magic Negro, spin him around, and send his ass packing because it is going to be a slaughter.

LogansPapa
06-21-2008, 08:55 PM
McCain is going to wind your wing-nut Magic Negro, spin him around, and send his ass packing because it is going to be a slaughter.

No, in reality a platform, a blunt force trauma device from the Republican Party will do that - explaining to the American voter, in a grammar school kid's intellect, the folly of Obama's giveaway programs - equating him with said policies of the LBJ administration and the disaster that bumbling, old fool unleashed on the American taxpayer. John's going to have to focus every bit of his energy on remaining erect and keeping his balance at rallies.

Odysseus
06-22-2008, 12:27 AM
Don't give any of your little lectures. I was serving my country probably before you were in grade school.
You really need to think about the harm our so called "ally" is doing to this country. Everything from bribing our politicians so they can have money to pulling us into a perpetual war for their own security. Let us not forget spying and then selling the information to our enemies so they can get a little more money..
Donít they teach officers to think a little bit nowadays or do you have a problem dong that?
It is one thing for a politician to be on the side of the Israelis when the Israelis give them money but I would hope that at least one person in the military could see through that bullshit.

I have no problem thinking for myself. What I do have a problem with is someone who repeats CAIR's propaganda without anything resembling critical thought, then has the nerve to impugn the patriotism and manhood of anyone who disagrees with his paranoid, bigoted conspiratorial blather. Get help. Seriously.

ConJinx
06-22-2008, 12:45 AM
AhHCCHCCHCHmen. I mean Amen Major.

ConJinx
06-22-2008, 12:47 AM
eAST SIDE WITH THE HELOS, OR WESTSIDE and the class 6

SaintLouieWoman
06-22-2008, 12:58 PM
I agree with all you say, but the problems associated with a complete political extarction are huge. Especially since we'll have a strong ally in Iraq, once the mission is complete.

I was in the Army under Nixon, Ford, and Carter while on AD. The minimum I expect fom and Obama administration would be cuts in training and weapons development. The quality of the force will be reduced because anyone who can retire will retire. Many NCOs and offciers with less than 10 years service will probably get out as well since they won't see a bright future in tehir chosen field.

I see no good for the country in general iof Obama is elected.

:cool:
I saw that when Clinton was elected. Many good folks in the military opted out. One major told he (after he left the military and kept a position as a civilian at the same facility) that he "won't salue that man". This will happen even more with Obama.

gator
06-22-2008, 01:47 PM
What these stupid Left Wingers don't understand is that military service is voluntary and that many Patriotic Americans will opt not to serve a Socialist government.

They remember American troops being used to kill Christians in Europe and being used to do worthless things like going after the warlords in Somalia during the administration of the last Socialist president.

LogansPapa
06-22-2008, 02:59 PM
A draft in this country ended as a viable reality back in the 70's. A volunteer manned armed services is the only option - less WWIII and/or revolution. Unemployment in suburban towns fuels the recruiters logs and the further away you get from wealth - the better your prospects.

gator
06-22-2008, 03:22 PM
Unemployment in suburban towns fuels the recruiters logs and the further away you get from wealth - the better your prospects.

That is bullshit.

We have met recruitment goals for the last few years with only 5% unemployment, which means anybody that wants a job can have one. At least anybody that meets the recruitment standards.

Military people are better educated and come from wealthier families than those that don't serve.

There may be a time in the future when the military presents the only or best employment opportunity for someone but it hasnít been that way for a long time. Probably not in my lifetime.

Now some people will join for the benefits like college and some will join to get trained for a specific skill but these are the more educated recruits anyhow and could do well without the military.

Many young men and women join for the adventure and for not monetary reasons. Many join for the opportunity to do their duty. I have met several of them since my son joined the Army. I think these are the ones that will bail on Obama.

LogansPapa
06-22-2008, 03:32 PM
That is bullshit.

We have met recruitment goals for the last few years with only 5% unemployment, which means anybody that wants a job can have one. At least anybody that meets the recruitment standards.



Not according to the recruitment officer in Hemet - in yesterday's article in the LA Times on the 500th kid to be killed from California in Iraq/Afghanistan. But what does he know.

Odysseus
06-22-2008, 11:07 PM
Not according to the recruitment officer in Hemet - in yesterday's article in the LA Times on the 500th kid to be killed from California in Iraq/Afghanistan. But what does he know.

Gee, an article on another meaningless milestone from the LA Times, but nothing about how Al Qaeda is on the ropes, Iraqi oil production has surpassed prewar levels or the latest medal of honor recipient.

I wouldn't line our catbox with the LA Times.

SaintLouieWoman
06-22-2008, 11:14 PM
Gee, an article on another meaningless milestone from the LA Times, but nothing about how Al Qaeda is on the ropes, Iraqi oil production has surpassed prewar levels or the latest medal of honor recipient.

I wouldn't line our catbox with the LA Times.
I wouldn't let my son line his birds' cages with the STL Post Dispatch, that lib rag. I have to take another blood pressure med every time I read it. :rolleyes:

LogansPapa
06-23-2008, 12:43 AM
Hmmmm......a state that has more than 10% of the Union's war deaths is meaningless. How caring.

Odysseus
06-23-2008, 07:26 PM
Hmmmm......a state that has more than 10% of the Union's war deaths is meaningless. How caring.

When you've done as many Next of Kin notifications as I have, you can comment on my caring for the losses of my fellow Soldiers and their families. Until then, spare me your crocodile tears for our losses. Like the LA Times, you only pretend to care about dead GIs when you can use them for partisan gain. If you really gave a $#/+ about the men and women who died in this war, you'd stop trying to undo what they've accomplished, instead of using them as a cheap talking point to run down their mission.

AlmostThere
06-23-2008, 09:35 PM
We will never be able to completely extract ourselves from Middle East politics.
Not until we don't have to buy their oil.

Goldwater
06-23-2008, 09:49 PM
When you've done as many Next of Kin notifications as I have, you can comment on my caring for the losses of my fellow Soldiers and their families. Until then, spare me your crocodile tears for our losses. Like the LA Times, you only pretend to care about dead GIs when you can use them for partisan gain. If you really gave a $#/+ about the men and women who died in this war, you'd stop trying to undo what they've accomplished, instead of using them as a cheap talking point to run down their mission.

I'm sure the anti-war folks see it as trying to get the men and women out of danger's way for a cause they don't see as justifiable. Your spin on it was very impressive though.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 10:21 AM
When you've done as many Next of Kin notifications as I have, you can comment on my caring for the losses of my fellow Soldiers and their families. Until then, spare me your crocodile tears for our losses. Like the LA Times, you only pretend to care about dead GIs when you can use them for partisan gain. If you really gave a $#/+ about the men and women who died in this war, you'd stop trying to undo what they've accomplished, instead of using them as a cheap talking point to run down their mission.

Itís a simple fact that if you donít do an accounting of your losses every once and a while - you become an automaton and easily used for the gratification of various leaderís egos. Regarding my supposed running down of any military personnelís mission, thatís a lie and you know it. Not having direct military experience doesnít preclude anyone from actually thinking and having an opinion.

gator
06-24-2008, 10:51 AM
I'm sure the anti-war folks see it as trying to get the men and women out of danger's way for a cause they don't see as justifiable. Your spin on it was very impressive though.

I am not anti war. I just want to make that if we go to war it is for a damn good reason.

Going to war to kill Christians in order to protect Muslims is not a good reason.

Going to war to remove warlords in Somalia is not a good reason.

I have no idea why we have troops stationed in Germany and Poland nowadays.

I have no idea why we have troops stationed in Korea. I read the other day that the North Koreans have only about 30% of their military field equipment operational. South Korea has one of the best militaries in the world and can very well protect themselves.

I have no idea why we have military bases in almost 100 countries.

I have no idea why we invaded Iraq seeing that the people responsible for 911 were mostly Saudi Arabians who bosses lived in Afghanistan.

I donít want Americans to die for Taiwan, South Korea, Iraq, Israel, Bosnia, Somalia, Saudi Arabia or any other place where the security of America is not at stake.

I believe in non interventionism, which is kind of what our country was founded upon. At least our Founding Fathers thought so.

We should always have a strong military but we should only use it for our own security and not nation building or to protect the other 6.3 billion people on earth. We will go bankrupt and our finest young men and women will die for nothing.

The Liberals will screw everything up by having an Internationist outlook on things. The NeoCons are screwing it up by promoting perpetual war.

I say a pox on both their houses.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 11:30 AM
We will go bankrupt and our finest young men and women will die for nothing.

Well, some folks will have purple fingers.:cool:

dixierat
06-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Itís a simple fact that if you donít do an accounting of your losses every once and a while - you become an automaton and easily used for the gratification of various leaderís egos. Regarding my supposed running down of any military personnelís mission, thatís a lie and you know it. Not having direct military experience doesnít preclude anyone from actually thinking and having an opinion.

Even if it's wrong........


:cool:

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 02:29 PM
I'm sure the anti-war folks see it as trying to get the men and women out of danger's way for a cause they don't see as justifiable. Your spin on it was very impressive though.

It's not spin. The antiwar folks couldn't care less about us. John Kerry summed up their position quite eloquently when he implied that he thought that we were dim slackers who didn't make the grade. Unfortunately for him and his ilk, we aren't idiots, and we do know who our friends are. People who invoke the names of our casualties in order to discredit what they died for aren't doing it for us.


Itís a simple fact that if you donít do an accounting of your losses every once and a while - you become an automaton and easily used for the gratification of various leaderís egos. Regarding my supposed running down of any military personnelís mission, thatís a lie and you know it. Not having direct military experience doesnít preclude anyone from actually thinking and having an opinion.

Ah, so we're in danger of losing sight of what we've lost because the media hasn't reminded us about it, 24/7? Somehow, I don't think that those of us who served alongside of those casualties will ever lose sight of it. Besides, just telling us our losses out of context isn't an accounting, unless you only have a debit column in your ledger, but that's the point, isn't it? Your pals in the media are perfectly happy to tell us how many have died, but never tell us what they died for or what they've accomplished. It's all bad news, except when the news is good, in which case there isn't any. Where are the news reports about the defeat of Al Qaeda in Iraq? The Surge worked magnificently, but where are the stories about it? Why is it that media outlets that ran massive coverage of Haditha when the allegations surfaced can't be bothered to cover the acquittals and dismissals? Out of all of those stories about dead service members, why is it that those who received the Medal of Honor receive the least coverage? Why is Lyndie Englund almost a household name, but SFC Paul Smith is hardly known outside of the Army? Your "accounting" is simply a phony lament for people that the LA Times would just as soon spit on as report about.


Well, some folks will have purple fingers.
Those purple fingers were a badge of courage for millions of people who defied terrorists to vote for the first time in their lives. To someone who considers them less than human, like you or Gator, it's meaningless, but for those of us who have interacted with them and seek to better their lives, it was a proud moment.

Goldwater
06-24-2008, 02:42 PM
It's not spin. The antiwar folks couldn't care less about us. John Kerry summed up their position quite eloquently when he implied that he thought that we were dim slackers who didn't make the grade. Unfortunately for him and his ilk, we aren't idiots, and we do know who our friends are. People who invoke the names of our casualties in order to discredit what they died for aren't doing it for us.

Even as someone who hates John Kerry I can see that is not what he meant with that crappy joke.

gator
06-24-2008, 04:26 PM
We will go bankrupt and our finest young men and women will die for nothing.

Well, some folks will have purple fingers.:cool:

That is their business, not mine.

I would rather have the lives of the almost 4,000 young men and women back than to have one Iraqi with a purple finger. If they want freedom then let them fight for it. It is not my business to intervene.

The Soviet Union went bankrupted trying to make sure that everybody in the world wore red scarves. We can go bankrupt and lose many fine men and women with this purple finger bullshit.

Our business should be business not nation building. Nation building cost a lot of money and lives. It also gets people pretty pissed off at you. Our Founding Fathers warned us to not get involved in shit like that. We need to pay a little more attention to our Founding Fathers and a little less attention to those that profit and are made safe by the US fighting their wars for them.

We should kick ass when necessary and have the strongest military in the world but we shouldn’t be dumbshits.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 04:46 PM
We should kick ass when necessary and have the strongest military in the world but we shouldnít be dumbshits.

I have no problem with small forward bases placed strategically around the world - but the monsters that still hang on today are anachronisms. Quick strikes and withdrawal is the way I believe we should protect ourselves and leave the indoctrination to the Mormons. Call in as much death from above as required, using the technology that weíve perfected, but forget the coloring books and Crayons for the kids.

Things like the poppies in Afghanistan can be handled with cash and firing squads. Pay the farmers not to grow (shit, we still do that here) and execute the ones that continue to do so, until OBL found and strung up - then split. Gatorís quite correct about our country carrying an undue moral and financial burden thatís way beyond our job as a nation, and that time has certainly passed.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 09:00 PM
Even as someone who hates John Kerry I can see that is not what he meant with that crappy joke.

Now who's spinning?

Goldwater
06-25-2008, 12:28 AM
Now who's spinning?

Still you I think.

dixierat
06-25-2008, 07:49 AM
That is their business, not mine.

I would rather have the lives of the almost 4,000 young men and women back than to have one Iraqi with a purple finger. If they want freedom then let them fight for it. It is not my business to intervene.

The Soviet Union went bankrupted trying to make sure that everybody in the world wore red scarves. We can go bankrupt and lose many fine men and women with this purple finger bullshit.

Our business should be business not nation building. Nation building cost a lot of money and lives. It also gets people pretty pissed off at you. Our Founding Fathers warned us to not get involved in shit like that. We need to pay a little more attention to our Founding Fathers and a little less attention to those that profit and are made safe by the US fighting their wars for them.

We should kick ass when necessary and have the strongest military in the world but we shouldnít be dumbshits.

Agree with all of the above. We're led by dumbshits, thoough. And we're dumbshits for electing them.

:cool: