Dear Occupiers...

My God you are an idiot. But I'll play along:

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I want the unemployment benefits structure to be reformed, even though I have a job.

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So, in other words, people should be paid what, $1000 a week just for sitting on their asses and not even looking for a job? UI is only supposed to help cover the basics until you can find another job. But you and your ilk want to be able to use UI to keep funding those toys we're talking about. In NJ, UI is very good but it isn't free. You help pay for it. I've been paying into the NJ UI pool, with the exception of the time between 9/98-7/03, since 1981. That's 25 years(taking away the 5 I lived out of state) and yet I've collected exactly 6 months of UI in all that time. However, I know of people who collect off and on every year. They get jobs, dilly for a while, then allow themselves to be fired, usually by just not showing up after a while. So, is the system flawed or are the abusers destroying the system?

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I want housing assistance for homeless families to be expanded, even though I have a home.

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Fine. No one is stopping you from making donations to homeless shelters. But don't force me to pay for them if I don't want to. Also, many homeless people are homeless because of choices they have made. Is it fair to force me to pay for their mistakes?

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I want greater access to higher education, even though I'm already educated.

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So this should be "free" also? (I put free in quotes because the only way to fund this would for your ilk to seize from the producers to pay for it) Not to mention that EVERYONE...let me repeat that, EVERYONE has ample opportunity to continue their education. But noooo, you and your ilk think that I should pay for someone to go to some high end university which is idiocy. There is nothing wrong with going to a community college to start. In fact, most community colleges are not only affordable but they also partner with 4 year colleges which allow you to work toward your degree easier. If you choose to go to a high end college and take loans to do so, it is your choice hence your responsibility to pay it back. It's really this easy.

No wee wee, your idiotic ilk wants the world on a platter and want everyone else to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

I want greater access to higher education, even though I'm already educated.

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There is absolutely no empirical evidence to support that last part.

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Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

I wouldn't call myself a "marxist". I have tried to critically read and analyze Marx's analysis of capitalism as a conceptual tool to make sense of world. I'm not claiming that Marx = Truth, but that in some contexts, a critical analysis of Marxian concepts is useful. It's about utility.

Anyway, insulting someone who is having a calm civil discussion doesn't do anything. It doesn't take a very strong or confident mind to stick one's fingers into one's ears and shout insults.

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Why is it that Marxists never admit to being Marxists? It's not like it will cost you your job, and you couldn't be any lower in our opinion, so just admit it.

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Originally Posted by Articulate_Ape

There is absolutely no empirical evidence to support that last part.

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Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

A few things to start, not that this matters too much, but: I don't own a smartphone.

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This is a good thing. People should be smarter than their prossessions. A simple phone is perfect for you.

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Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

What I am seeing is non-stop attempts to get people to stop thinking about what OWS protesters are saying, elaborate ways to ignore these people, or ways to discredit the entire movement without putting any thought into it. These are thought-terminating exercises and nothing more.

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Bull. We're all in favor of getting people to listen to what OWS protesters are saying. We want the general public to see what kinds of idiots these dilletantes are. We constantly post video interviews, audio clips, transcripts of statements, because we are perfectly happy talking about the content of their ideas. It's you who keeps trying to pretend that they are something other than what they are, which is ignorant, bigoted, infantile tools. By all means, let's talk about their message, about their hatred of the rich, their demand for violent revolution, their inability to articulate a simple statement of ideals or even an understanding of what an ideal is. Then we can discuss the desire to substitute rote drumming for conscious thought. Let's also go into how they tolerate vile, extremist attacks on Jews, and then discuss the support that they received from the American Nazi Party, not to mention the Revolutionary Communist Party, the various violent fringe groups from the left, and the Democratic Party. Then we can go into detail on how the ideologies of these various, seemingly disparate groups meet at the junction of anti-capitalism, dorm-room Marxism, histoirical illiteracy and hatred of their nation and home.

By all means, let's talk about their views and ideas.

Any time, any place.

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Originally Posted by Odysseus

Why is it that Marxists never admit to being Marxists? It's not like it will cost you your job, and you couldn't be any lower in our opinion, so just admit it.



This is a good thing. People should be smarter than their prossessions. A simple phone is perfect for you.


Bull. We're all in favor of getting people to listen to what OWS protesters are saying. We want the general public to see what kinds of idiots these dilletantes are. We constantly post video interviews, audio clips, transcripts of statements, because we are perfectly happy talking about the content of their ideas. It's you who keeps trying to pretend that they are something other than what they are, which is ignorant, bigoted, infantile tools. By all means, let's talk about their message, about their hatred of the rich, their demand for violent revolution, their inability to articulate a simple statement of ideals or even an understanding of what an ideal is. Then we can discuss the desire to substitute rote drumming for conscious thought. Let's also go into how they tolerate vile, extremist attacks on Jews, and then discuss the support that they received from the American Nazi Party, not to mention the Revolutionary Communist Party, the various violent fringe groups from the left, and the Democratic Party. Then we can go into detail on how the ideologies of these various, seemingly disparate groups meet at the junction of anti-capitalism, dorm-room Marxism, histoirical illiteracy and hatred of their nation and home.

By all means, let's talk about their views and ideas.

Any time, any place.

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We we is done once he gets his ass handed to him (like in this thread) he goes in hides.

I've come to realise that the more Wee Wee post about a subject the less I care about it because of the stupidity of his arguments.

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Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

I want the unemployment benefits structure to be reformed, even though I have a job.
I want housing assistance for homeless families to be expanded, even though I have a home.
I want greater access to higher education, even though I'm already educated.

If someone is complaining that they can't afford their rent while paying $200+ a month for a glorified toy, then yes I agree they should shut up, stop crying, and learn how to prioritize and budget. However, the health care and health insurance systems are still a major issue, even if stupid kids are stupid.

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Wanna help?

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I want the unemployment benefits structure to be reformed, even though I have a job.

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Hire somebody.

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I want housing assistance for homeless families to be expanded, even though I have a home.

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Give a homeless man a room in your house.

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I want greater access to higher education, even though I'm already educated.

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Sponsor a student to college.

You liberals need to stop demanding more and more money from everybody and put your money (snort) where your mouth is.

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Originally Posted by NJCardFan

My God you are an idiot. But I'll play along:


So, in other words, people should be paid what, $1000 a week just for sitting on their asses and not even looking for a job? UI is only supposed to help cover the basics until you can find another job. But you and your ilk want to be able to use UI to keep funding those toys we're talking about. In NJ, UI is very good but it isn't free. You help pay for it. I've been paying into the NJ UI pool, with the exception of the time between 9/98-7/03, since 1981. That's 25 years(taking away the 5 I lived out of state) and yet I've collected exactly 6 months of UI in all that time. However, I know of people who collect off and on every year. They get jobs, dilly for a while, then allow themselves to be fired, usually by just not showing up after a while. So, is the system flawed or are the abusers destroying the system?

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You are assuming a lot about what I supposedly want to change about the system.

Firstly, I don't think unemployment benefits should be totally free. I think anyone who is getting government assistance, whether it's unemployment benefits or welfare, should be required to do some community service activities. It fosters work ethic, keeps people from becoming stagnant and losing skills, contributes to community spirit, makes people aware of the needs of their fellow community members, and gives them a sense of dignity rather than simple dependency. I see exceptions to this as well, people who disabled for example, or people who are working part time or going to school, but still don't make enough to keep their heads above water.

Also, I think part of these programs should be mandatory workshops that teach skills, guide people to educational opportunities, provide subsidized trade school education, teach basic skills like how to looks and speak professionally, how to do well in an interview, how to read and right properly, ect. If people want to collect benefits for their unfortunate position, they should be required to take positive steps towards improving their situation. However, it's important to make sure that these resources are readily available, and we should work hard on helping people overcome obstacles and become more productive members of society, not simply giving handouts or being heartless.

These are the types of changes I see as being needed in these programs. Yes these programs should be available.

It takes money to do it effectively, we need to hire professionals who know how to train people to be more marketable to employers, who can educate them, who can guide people to better resources, who can run these workshops, who can properly evaluate them and assess what their needs are. Simply giving them a check and asking "are you looking for work? ok here you go" is not enough.

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Fine. No one is stopping you from making donations to homeless shelters. But don't force me to pay for them if I don't want to. Also, many homeless people are homeless because of choices they have made. Is it fair to force me to pay for their mistakes?

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Many homeless people are homeless because of circumstances outside of their control as well. Many homeless people are homeless because of a combination of their environment, their blind luck, and their choices.

Sure, a healthy, educated man who decides to tell every employer he has to fuck off will most likely end up without a job. If he keeps this up, he may end up unemployable and homeless. However, this has nothing to do with a hard-working single parent who cannot pay their bills and ends up living out of a motel.

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So this should be "free" also? (I put free in quotes because the only way to fund this would for your ilk to seize from the producers to pay for it) Not to mention that EVERYONE...let me repeat that, EVERYONE has ample opportunity to continue their education. But noooo, you and your ilk think that I should pay for someone to go to some high end university which is idiocy. There is nothing wrong with going to a community college to start. In fact, most community colleges are not only affordable but they also partner with 4 year colleges which allow you to work toward your degree easier. If you choose to go to a high end college and take loans to do so, it is your choice hence your responsibility to pay it back. It's really this easy.

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It should be subsidized.

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Originally Posted by Odysseus

Why is it that Marxists never admit to being Marxists? It's not like it will cost you your job, and you couldn't be any lower in our opinion, so just admit it.

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I simply don't consider myself a Marxist. If it is necessary for you to force narrow labels on people in order to keep your paranoid ideology stable, then go ahead and do that. I'm just letting you know I don't see myself like that. If you categorize anyone who doesn't uncritically absorb Fox News to be a Marxist, then okay. If you think anyone who doesn't vote Republican is a Marxist, then have fun with that.
If you think a Marxist is someone who uncritically accepts Marx's writings as gospel, then that's fine, but that's not what I am.

I consider theories to be conceptual tools which are useful for modelling and making sense of phenomenon. Different theories have different levels of utility depending on the subject and circumstance. Theories are limited in their scope and all have limitations.

It's not about truth or dogma. Marx was a brilliant thinker but also a flawed person like anyone else. He was limited by his place in history, and his theories reflect the world that he lived in. I find some of Marx's concepts and to be useful for forming a framework to talk about certain systems or events. If you equate that to Red Dawn, then you are beyond discussion.

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This is a good thing. People should be smarter than their prossessions. A simple phone is perfect for you.

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I try not to identify with my stuff, that's all.

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Bull. We're all in favor of getting people to listen to what OWS protesters are saying. We want the general public to see what kinds of idiots these dilletantes are. We constantly post video interviews, audio clips, transcripts of statements, because we are perfectly happy talking about the content of their ideas.

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Oh come on, don't try to play this game. You know exactly what is going on here. You post videos that make people look bad, and pretend that it represents everyone who is protesting or everyone who supports the protests.

If you want to discuss stuff that would be great, but you only ever show defensiveness. You never acknowledge that anyone who disagrees with you might have a good point, about anything, ever. You resort to insults and name-calling in nearly every post.

That's all fine and well, no one's feelings are being hurt, those are simply just not the actions of someone who is interested in listening or discussing. Those are the actions of a defensive person. I don't know exactly what you are trying to prove or who you are trying to prove it to, but I don't think anyone is watching or cares. Ask me about good points that Republicans have made, ask me about what I can agree about with conservatives, ask me about good points I've seen from people on this site, ask me about issues that conservatives have made me rethink.

I've long thought that you are an intelligent guy but I think your ego games get in the way of discussion, if that's even what you are here for.

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It's you who keeps trying to pretend that they are something other than what they are, which is ignorant, bigoted, infantile tools. By all means, let's talk about their message, about their hatred of the rich, their demand for violent revolution, their inability to articulate a simple statement of ideals or even an understanding of what an ideal is. Then we can discuss the desire to substitute rote drumming for conscious thought. Let's also go into how they tolerate vile, extremist attacks on Jews, and then discuss the support that they received from the American Nazi Party, not to mention the Revolutionary Communist Party, the various violent fringe groups from the left, and the Democratic Party. Then we can go into detail on how the ideologies of these various, seemingly disparate groups meet at the junction of anti-capitalism, dorm-room Marxism, histoirical illiteracy and hatred of their nation and home.

By all means, let's talk about their views and ideas.

Any time, any place.

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ok cool, well these people are not a single entity, and there is no actual thing called "the left" which some people seem to believe is a large homogenous group that encompasses everything conservatives are opposed to. Many people who are considered to be on the "left" have different ideas and different criticisms and often disagree, it isn't a single mass.

So, I can tell you my ideas about each of these issues, one person's perspective, and I can share what I've heard from friends about their perspectives, but that's about it. Don't trick yourself into thinking you are taking on some giant entity called "leftism" when you post at a single guy on a forum.

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By the logic you are using, wealthy people should not complain about higher taxes as long as they have luxury cars, yachts, a 8-figure homes, right?

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Wei, there is a HUGE difference between someone complaining about the amount of money that is taken from them without a choice (taxes), and someone who is complaining that they should get what someone else has earned or shouldn't have to be responsible for decisions they have made (student loans, taking out a mortgage, having kids before marriage and education, etc.).

One is saying that they should be able to keep more of the money THEY made, the other is complaining about things not being "fair" because they don't have the same as someone else who has worked for it.

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Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

By the logic you are using, wealthy people should not complain about higher taxes as long as they have luxury cars, yachts, a 8-figure homes, right?

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No, because the economic arguments for tax cuts and against tax increases are not based on selfish motives.

The are based on the FACT, with VERY few exceptions, that taking money out of the private economy and putting it into the federal coffers HARMS the overall economy and job creation.