Poll question: Is pepper spray torture?

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11-21-2011, 02:30 PM
Odysseus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

You are using a defense that lost all of it's credibility decades ago. "Just following orders" isn't good enough anymore.

Comparing the cops at an Occupy event to the SS is despicable, even for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

Sometimes the rules themselves are wrong, or the people giving orders, and going along with that when you have a conscience makes you just as guilty.

Also, "they were breaking the law" doesn't justify any use of force that the police deem okay, I already gave an example of Bull Conner. He used excessive tactics against people who were breaking the law, and the excuse given was just that - "they are breaking the law".

Sitting peacefully against the orders of a police officer may be against the law, but it doesn't warrant the use of force. They can simply be arrested and dragged away. That's what ended up happening anyway.

An arrest is the use of force. Dragging them away is using force. Any physical contact is force. The cop was going through a standard escalation of force, from the least physically severe to the most. If the protesters had moved when ordered, they would not have been sprayed. If they had moved after being sprayed, they would not have been manhandled. If they had moved without being physically forced to move, then they would not have been arrested. You don't get to decide what laws and police instructions you feel like obeying, just because you're a malcontent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaruH5wZwDI

Here is a 3-tour Iraq war veteran being beaten by the police. He doesn't attack them, assault them, or pose any danger to the police, himself, or anyone else. He even continues backing up, following police orders.

I'd like to see more on this guy's service record before I accept your word that he's a vet, and even if he is, the minute that he breaks the law, he abrogates any consideration for his veterans' status. Our uniform isn't a license to break the law, in fact, it demands that we follow it. Using his status to justify his behavior simply makes the rest of us look bad, which, of course, isn't an issue for you so much as a perk, but we don't care to be associated with him, thank you very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

There seems to be a brief moment, where he ignores a police order, which results in a severe beating that got him hospitalized.

They ended up, again, using multiple police to hold him down and a circle of police to keep people away, so why didn't they just use 2 police to arrest him? This is more than excessive.

You obviously didn't watch the same video. I saw him facing off against a single cop who was in advance of the line, repeatedly disobeying the hand gestures to move aside. No audio, so we don't know what he said in response, but we can see him shouting. As for why they didn't just use 2 cops to arrest him, they don't do that because using too little force is dangerous for the cops, as well as the perp. A larger group is more likely to overcome resistance quickly, while a pair of cops is more likely to get injured or have to cause injury in subduing the perp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

I guess they used their fancy computer imaging apps to edit out when the veteran pulled a weapon on the police officer :rolleyes:

It's on video. Maybe pieces were edited out, but you can see what happens right before the beating occurs.

I saw an individual facing off with a police officer who repeatedly gestured to him to move aside. The stance was belligerent and aggressive, and he continued to face the cop and, at several points, crouched into fighting stances. Also, I didn't get any audio, so we don't know what he said to the cop in response to the lawful order to move, which means that any provocations or threats are conveniently left out. Given what we know about the violence of the protesters, their despicable and vile conduct towards the police and the overall level of anarchy that they have fostered, you're going to have to do better than this.
11-21-2011, 02:47 PM
txradioguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odysseus

I'd like to see more on this guy's service record before I accept your word that he's a vet, and even if he is, the minute that he breaks the law, he abrogates any consideration for his veterans' status. Our uniform isn't a license to break the law, in fact, it demands that we follow it. Using his status to justify his behavior simply makes the rest of us look bad, which, of course, isn't an issue for you so much as a perk, but we don't care to be associated with him, thank you very much.

Wee Wee is wrong from the start...big surprise. This Olsen idiot served two tours in Iraq.

And it goes down hill from there.

Quote:

But he soured on military life. He started a website, now defunct, called "I hate the Marine Corps" that served as a forum for disgruntled servicemen.

Olsen received an "administrative discharge" from the service in late 2009, according to his uncle George Nygaard, though the precise reasons for it could not be confirmed. Such a discharge can result from any number of behavioral or disciplinary issues.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7A17TB20111102

This translates into the kid got an Article 15 (Office Hours in the USMC) and was shown the door. Most likely for what's called "failure to adapt". Depending on how much you pissed off your chain of command the discharge for that ranges from General Under Honorable Conditions to a normal Honorable discharge.

He's also a big fan of WikiLeaks and was a member of IVAW...favorite group of fake vets and Cindy Sheehan.

This guy might be popular in Obamaville Oakland...but he's severely deficient in the credibility department much less the soldiering department.

No wonder Wee Wee gets moist over him.
11-21-2011, 03:59 PM
AmPat

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaruH5wZwDI

Here is a stupid protester baiting the police and failing to disperse and subsequently resisting arrest being beaten by the police. He doesn't submit to the police officer, thus, once he took his much deserved @$$ whipping, he no longer posed any danger to the police, himself, or anyone else. He in fact continues backing up,resisting arrest by pulling away from and failing to follow police orders.

This is clearly a video where he ignores a police order, which results in a severe beating that got him hospitalized.

Quote:

They ended up, again, using multiple police to hold him down and a circle of police to keep people away, so why didn't they just use 2 police to arrest him? This is more than excessive.

You don't write police procedures, you don't get to call the shots from the cheap seats, and you don't get to criticize what you have NO experience in. The police will ALWAYS use superior force when arresting a threat, that is the way things are done. If they used one, two, or three to arrest this law breaking citizen, they ultimately did it right if none of them were injured.
11-21-2011, 06:18 PM
Teetop

Wee Wee Woo, if you disobey a LEO's orders, you can face physical force, sometimes even deadly force.

Why ya bitchin about pepper spray??? It is from a vegetable, FOR THE VEGANS!

:D
11-22-2011, 12:33 AM
NJCardFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaruH5wZwDI

Here is a 3-tour Iraq war veteran being beaten by the police. He doesn't attack them, assault them, or pose any danger to the police, himself, or anyone else. He even continues backing up, following police orders.

There seems to be a brief moment, where he ignores a police order, which results in a severe beating that got him hospitalized.

They ended up, again, using multiple police to hold him down and a circle of police to keep people away, so why didn't they just use 2 police to arrest him? This is more than excessive.

Hey wee, did you share the same kind of outrage over the treatment of Randy Schugart and Gary Gordon?
11-22-2011, 05:21 AM
txradioguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJCardFan

Hey wee, did you share the same kind of outrage over the treatment of Randy Schugart and Gary Gordon?

My guess is he believes they got what they deserved.
11-22-2011, 07:23 AM
Constitutionally Speaking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tipsycatlover

Drama queens. A hangnail is torture.

Pack them up and send them to Somalia. They would get a dose of real world.

Don't forget these are the SAME people who (along with others in high places) define placing a CATERPILLAR in a BOX in the SAME ROOM as a terrorist is also torture.

(No I am NOT kidding)
11-22-2011, 09:22 AM
Tipsycatlover

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constitutionally Speaking

Don't forget these are the SAME people who (along with others in high places) define placing a CATERPILLAR in a BOX in the SAME ROOM as a terrorist is also torture.

(No I am NOT kidding)

I remember that! Yes, they surely did.
11-22-2011, 09:49 AM
AmPat

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJCardFan

Hey wee, did you share the same kind of outrage over the treatment of Randy Schugart and Gary Gordon?

I haven't heard those names in a long time. Although I didn't personally know Randy or Gary, we had mutual friends. :(
11-22-2011, 12:23 PM
Odysseus

Something else occurs to me from watching the spraying. People can get used to being pepper sprayed. Get it often enough, and it barely registers. We used to run CS chambers for training, and after a few days of working around it, I didn't notice it, and tear gas is a lot nastier than capsicum. These habitual protesters have demonstrated that they have built up a tolerance, that can only come from having been repeatedly sprayed at protests or on dates, which, given the incidence of sexual assault at the Occupy camps, is highly likely.

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