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  1. #1 A Woman's Right to Choose 
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Here is something you don't read everyday from Hollywood. For once something out of Tinseltown I'm in agreement with.

    “What the hell is Graham on about now?? What momentous, screeching rant is he conjuring up now; can somebody put him on a stupid TV show so he’d shut up already??” – Your name here.

    No. I’m going to say it. I’m going to say what millions know in the front of their brains, and many, many more millions know in the depths of their hearts…but won’t allow themselves to think it, much less feel it. And believe me, I know I’ll be hated for saying it, I’ll be hated by people who don’t know me, have never worked with me, have never golfed with me, had a drink with me, shot the shit with me. They’ve never met me, don’t want to meet me…but they will hate me. I’m going to say it anyway: Abortion is murder.

    Screams, bomb blasts, machine-gun rounds rip through plaster, I duck, but the copper-tip spears tear into meat, I run, the fire sears flesh, more screams, are they coming from me, or are they my head being torn from…my…

    In the sixties and seventies I was a proud part of the peace generation. Long-haired hippies, rocker-lovers, lover-rockers, music festivals, drug explorations, peace not war, and there’s this cute piece right next to me, I’ve got a sleeping bag, would you like to get warm, and there’s a little hash left, you’re so pretty… Hey don’t laugh, we thought we were changing the world. Free love, baby, do it if it feels good, don’t look back, power to the peeps, and do your own thing. Wow, really? You mean you can be cool, have a lot of sex…and save the world all at the same time? Damn this is so f*cking bitchen! Ooh, my hair’s getting really good in the back… (Brown shoes… don’t make it! — F.Zappa)

    But wait – I’m in college. I’m on a fast track to jump into the business world. I’m going to be some stick-up-the-butt loser in some establishment straight-ass job, when I really just want to party. Oops, I mean… I want to help save the world! Through drugs, sex and rock and roll. All right, we don’t really have a solid business plan made up yet…but we’re working on it. Of course I’m a Democrat! Duh!

    End of flashback.

    I have been on all sides of this issue for most of my life, and I can simply not escape the logic. That fetus a pregnant woman is carrying inside of her, regardless of the gestation stage, is a living, breathing human being. Yes, breathing – the amniotic sac forms 12 days after conception, and in the second trimester the baby is actually breathing the amniotic fluid. It’s not an ‘unviable tissue mass.’ Not a wart, a mole, a skin outcropping, a boil, or a bundle of uncoordinated cells. It’s not just a ‘fetus’.

    It’s a baby. Not fully developed, true. Like an infant is not a fully developed and mature adult. But it’s a baby.
    Read it all here

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  2. #2  
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    Not to resurrect this stuff again... but..

    I’m telling you, once you draw that line and say this is the moment it’s a human being…you’ve lost the argument. Because it’s arbitrary. On this date it’s a baby, but yesterday it was just a bunch of cells…this blob of a nothing and you can do anything you want with it, it’s okay.
    The point this guy misses (well, he misses a lot... but I digress) is that pretty much any position on when life begins is mostly arbitrary. We all make certain value judgements regarding exactly what is valuable about the human experience, about life--in many respects, probably heavily guided by intuitions and feelings--and then look for the point in development where those values come into existence. It's those value judgements are mostly arbitrary.

    Obviously, I believe they are less-so on the pro-choice side.

    Note: If anyone responds to this by saying: "But... but... life begins at conception!! etc etc etc!!"..... they will have demonstrated they completely missed the point
    Last edited by wilbur; 01-28-2009 at 04:43 PM.
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  3. #3  
    I am just loving that site so far. :)
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  4. #4  
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    Wilbur, I just had to ask what drives you so much in your defense of abortion? Especially considering -- assuming from your posting name -- that you are male? I've noticed one of these threads draws you out quicker than ants to a picnic. If I had to guess, than I would assume it's because you associate any attack or critique on the practice of abortion as simultaneously being a defense of religion or religious values. Am I close in my assumption?
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    If this is true- not all the pro-lifers I know are from the "big 3" of religions-I know Pro-life Pagans...they're against it because it harms a living thing with potential, violates some pagan rules/redes.

    ~QC
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  6. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Not to resurrect this stuff again... but..



    The point this guy misses (well, he misses a lot... but I digress) is that pretty much any position on when life begins is mostly arbitrary. We all make certain value judgements regarding exactly what is valuable about the human experience, about life--in many respects, probably heavily guided by intuitions and feelings--and then look for the point in development where those values come into existence. It's those value judgements are mostly arbitrary.

    Obviously, I believe they are less-so on the pro-choice side.

    Note: If anyone responds to this by saying: "But... but... life begins at conception!! etc etc etc!!"..... they will have demonstrated they completely missed the point
    Wilbur, you can produce no scientific evidence to dispute the fact that a human is a human no matter what state that human is in as long as the human is living. Common sense alone lets rational people know that the fetus is a human. Tell yourself whatever it takes to allow you to sleep through the night. Convince yourself that abortion is not murder in order to justify whatever guilt you may be trying to ease but if you think you can convince people that wrong is right and bad is good then you are probably going to be disappointed. For you to admit the truth would be for you to admit that you advocate the murder of a human whose only crime is to be conceived by parents who are more concerned for their own convenience than they are for the child they kill.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  7. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Wilbur, you can produce no scientific evidence to dispute the fact that a human is a human no matter what state that human is in as long as the human is living. Common sense alone lets rational people know that the fetus is a human. Tell yourself whatever it takes to allow you to sleep through the night.
    Well, all this has been covered in the other thread.... suffice to say you miss the point. Never disputed a fetus is human... it would be silly to debate the point.. and I never have.

    Your value judgement of the stuff you refer to as human is as arbitrary (or moreso) than my value judgement of the qualities I refer to as personhood.

    As an aside, I saw a video the other day of some people asking pro-life protesters what a womans punishment should be if abortion were illegal... and the woman had an illegal abortion. Most were confused and really absolutely stumped as if it never occured to them to think about this.... nearly all of them said there really shouldnt be any legal repurcussions. This sentiment was also illustrated by Odysseus (I think) in the other thread when I posed the same question. It is really a curious phenomenon.. the movement spends its time doing its best to convince us that abortion, no matter at what stage, is absolutely, unequivically murder.. but its clear they actually DO make a distinction between an embryo and a living human being because they are not willing to convict a woman of homicide for getting an illegal abortion. Curious indeed.
    Last edited by wilbur; 01-29-2009 at 12:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    Wilbur, I just had to ask what drives you so much in your defense of abortion? Especially considering -- assuming from your posting name -- that you are male? I've noticed one of these threads draws you out quicker than ants to a picnic. If I had to guess, than I would assume it's because you associate any attack or critique on the practice of abortion as simultaneously being a defense of religion or religious values. Am I close in my assumption?
    I post in abortion threads because its such a defining issue.... it seriously effects elections, and should pro-lifers ever get their way, a devastating effect on real honest human beings. It's important.... and I like exploring these types of philosophical topics. Plus the other threads OP article was so stupidly inflammatory, idiotic..... so unbelievably stupid that it was comical... yet lo and behold most of CU was cheering it on. If CU is a reflection at all of the majority of the republican party, we are fucked.... even if we "win".
    Last edited by wilbur; 01-29-2009 at 01:02 AM.
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Well, all this has been covered in the other thread.... suffice to say you miss the point. Never disputed a fetus is human... it would be silly to debate the point.. and I never have.

    Your value judgement of the stuff you refer to as human is as arbitrary (or moreso) than my value judgement of the qualities I refer to as personhood.

    As an aside, I saw a video the other day of some people asking pro-life protesters what a womans punishment should be if abortion were illegal... and the woman had an illegal abortion. Most were confused and really absolutely stumped as if it never occured to them to think about this.... nearly all of them said there really shouldnt be any legal repurcussions. This sentiment was also illustrated by Odysseus (I think) in the other thread when I posed the same question. It is really a curious phenomenon.. the movement spends its time doing its best to convince us that abortion, no matter at what stage, is absolutely, unequivically murder.. but its clear they actually DO make a distinction between an embryo and a living human being because they are not willing to convict a woman of homicide for getting an illegal abortion. Curious indeed.

    Actually it’s not curious at all. It's called compassion.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  10. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Actually it’s not curious at all. It's called compassion.
    If the rhetoric of pro-life is to be taken at face value, then we absolutely should not have any more compassion for a woman who had an abortion than we would a woman who hired a hit man to kill her child. Just like the article in the OP, just like every pro-life post on this board... they all go to extraordinary lengths to drive home the point that it is murder... equivalent to murdering a child... infanticide.... butchering babies.... chopping up a living person in a torturous procedure and sucking out their brains, etc.. Refusing to man up and not punish the woman and doctor like the murders that pro-lifers claim they are, however regrettable it may be, reveals that even many pro-lifers don't believe their own rhetoric.
    Last edited by wilbur; 01-29-2009 at 09:52 AM.
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