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  1. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    If the rhetoric of pro-life is to be taken at face value, then we absolutely should not have any more compassion for a woman who had an abortion than we would a woman who hired a hit man to kill her child. Even the article in the OP goes to great lengths to drive home the point that it is murder. Refusing to man up and not punish the woman and doctor like murders, however regrettable it may be, reveals that even many pro-lifers don't believe their own rhetoric.
    No, it reveals that we have a fundamentally different worldview from you. We aren't bound to make this kind of determination strictly according to case law while you have no other tools to use but a legal quid pro quo.

    Our concern is to save the life of the child, offer the mothers dignified options, and turn the culture away from the idea that human beings who have done no wrong are expendable. We don't actually operate under the 'tooth for a tooth' standard of OT law. We don't see the issues around pregnancy and motherhood in the same light as you do.

    And that's just fine, it makes us all "diverse" and "multicultural". ;)
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    No, it reveals that we have a fundamentally different worldview from you. We aren't bound to make this kind of determination strictly according to case law while you have no other tools to use but a legal quid pro quo.

    Our concern is to save the life of the child, offer the mothers dignified options, and turn the culture away from the idea that human beings who have done no wrong are expendable. We don't actually operate under the 'tooth for a tooth' standard of OT law. We don't see the issues around pregnancy and motherhood in the same light as you do.
    It reveals pro-lifers do actually make a distinction between an fetus and a living human being... something that never will be admitted honestly and without misdirection. Which reveals that the rhetoric is false, and misleading. Which also reveals the arbitrariness of pro-life positions. If you are going to suddenly say that aborting an embryo isnt the same as murdering a child, or that we should treat the situations differently... then you simply loose all right to use the typical pro-life rhetoric about murder... if you care about maintaining honesty.
    Last edited by wilbur; 01-29-2009 at 10:17 AM.
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  3. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    It reveals pro-lifers do actually make a distinction between an fetus and a living human being... something that never will be admitted honestly and without misdirection. Which reveals that the rhetoric is false, and misleading. Which also reveals the arbitrariness of pro-life positions. If you are going to suddenly say that aborting an embryo isnt the same as murdering a child, or that we should treat the situations differently... then you simply loose all right to use the typical pro-life rhetoric about murder... if you care about maintaining honesty.
    No, we don't lose anything. You and I have a completely different manner of viewing and framing this issue. Pro-life people haven't "suddenly" said anything new. This is not a matter of rhetoric for us, neither is it an exercise in debate. This is the part you don't understand.

    We simply aren't limited by your framework in defining the terms. The fact that the majority of us bring more to the table when we consider the case of a woman who electively aborts doesn't mean that we have stepped into any kind of "gotcha" trap. We have the ability to consider this issue within the light of our own faith and that is more complex than any secular legal code.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    The point this guy misses (well, he misses a lot... but I digress) is that pretty much any position on when life begins is mostly arbitrary. We all make certain value judgements [sic] regarding exactly what is valuable about the human experience, about life--in many respects, probably heavily guided by intuitions and feelings--and then look for the point in development where those values come into existence. It's those value judgements [sic] are mostly arbitrary.
    If all value judgments are arbitrary, and you argue against the idea of basing law on arbitrary judgments, then on what do you base your pro-choice position?

    Isn't the idea that life is worth protecting only once the child is fully removed from the mother, and not a moment sooner, just as arbitrary and capricious as the idea that life should be protected at the moment of conception?
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    If the rhetoric of pro-life is to be taken at face value, then we absolutely should not have any more compassion for a woman who had an abortion than we would a woman who hired a hit man to kill her child. Just like the article in the OP, just like every pro-life post on this board... they all go to extraordinary lengths to drive home the point that it is murder... equivalent to murdering a child... infanticide.... butchering babies.... chopping up a living person in a torturous procedure and sucking out their brains, etc.. Refusing to man up and not punish the woman and doctor like the murders that pro-lifers claim they are, however regrettable it may be, reveals that even many pro-lifers don't believe their own rhetoric.
    Once again you demonstrate that your understanding of the Christian point of view is severely lacking and once again you are trying to compare apples with oranges. You set up a strawman and then claim that my position makes to sense because your false strawman makes no sense.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  6. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    I post in abortion threads because its such a defining issue....
    It is a defining issue, but not quite for the reasons you cite. I like to ponder things philosophically as well, and this is what strikes me as the main question of abortion: Why is it such a big issue in a society where we have the widest variety and easiest access to birth control in history? We also have the internet, and young adults have access to more information than any earlier society. So why doesn't the practice of abortion slowly fade away? I have my opinions on the reason it doesn't but never the less, that's what we should be discussing.
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    If all value judgments are arbitrary, and you argue against the idea of basing law on arbitrary judgments, then on what do you base your pro-choice position?

    Isn't the idea that life is worth protecting only once the child is fully removed from the mother, and not a moment sooner, just as arbitrary and capricious as the idea that life should be protected at the moment of conception?
    You've made a good point. I don't believe proponents of abortion could ever agree to a definitive time during a pregnancy in which it is determined or declared that from this moment on, it is now immoral to abort the child. Mainly because they look at the issue solely from what is convienent for the mother. The human, fetus, organism is secondary.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    You've made a good point. I don't believe proponents of abortion could ever agree to a definitive time during a pregnancy in which it is determined or declared that from this moment on, it is now immoral to abort the child.
    I don't really think that's true. I think many pro-choice people would be willing to accept limitations on abortion after the first trimester, when viability begins to become an issue. No one seems to want to compromise on that, though, since first trimester accounts for about 90%+ of all abortions.
    "Today, [the American voter] chooses his rulers as he buys bootleg whiskey, never knowing precisely what he is getting, only certain that it is not what it pretends to be." - H.L. Mencken
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  9. #19  
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    Perhaps I did generalize a little broadly. I was thinking of the opinions and statements of those farther on the left, or those along the lines of the du. What do you think accounts for those on the left, in politics mainly, who seem reluctant to speak out or legislate against the procedure known as "partial birth abortion" for example?
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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    Perhaps I did generalize a little broadly. I was thinking of the opinions and statements of those farther on the left, or those along the lines of the du. What do you think accounts for those on the left, in politics mainly, who seem reluctant to speak out or legislate against the procedure known as "partial birth abortion" for example?
    I can't speak for them, but I would imagine it's because they would see it as a "thin edge of the wedge" that would somehow lead to an overall ban. I don't know. I don't think it will ever be illegal again, so I don't share that outlook.
    "Today, [the American voter] chooses his rulers as he buys bootleg whiskey, never knowing precisely what he is getting, only certain that it is not what it pretends to be." - H.L. Mencken
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