Yes, I'm fine with all that stuff you accuse me of. Yes, I'm fine with millions and millions of perfectly good babies getting slaughtered every year. I will sleep very well tonight, I might even sleep in late! The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.
But that is not the reason I've been active in this discussion thread. You started it by calling me out. I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.
People like you, people that judge without knowing any of the details make me think that you are nothing more than a lazy minded dolt. I actually feel sorry for people like you.
Before you judge, know you are talking about and then take a moment to maybe resconsider your hate and direct it towards understanding and compassion.
Oh, and by the way, I volunteer a huge amount of time to various social organizations here in my hometown. Not to toot my own horn but I haven't slept in on Christmas morning in 20 years. But seriously, I give quite a bit of time to my community.
In closing, I have never assisted in an abortion, Mrs. Smith.
They should have made that choice BEFORE having sex and not AFTER the baby had already started to develop.The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.
Oh, so it is all about the circumstances. Well say I know someone whom has been harassing me and doing terrible things to me and there is nothing I can do about it. Would that justify the killing of that person? No.I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.
People in the abortion industry are removing a developing human child from the mother. Essentially that means murdering the child before it has a chance to even fend for itself.
The fact that you have resorted to immature insults does not help further your cause; in fact it only degrades your ability to have an intelligent debate.
Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I've given birth to 5 kids, and miscarried 2. I've walked the pro-life road in every circumstance.
No family or other support...check.
I considered abortion, but could not committ murder...check.
I've held in my hand the body of an 11-week fetus...and he was perfect. He was a boy, perfectly formed, completely a human being...and he now lies in the cemetary with my great-grandparents and the son they lost at birth.
There are NO circumstances that make it OK to murder your child...at any age.
Just for the record, I hate no one. I feel great pity for those deluded enough to embrace murder, and great sorrow for those innocent lives sacrificed to the god of money or convenience.
Before I respond to you I want to tell you that I believe everything you say. I believe that you've had a difficult time and it's a testament to your character that you've been able to make the decisions that you have, and then actually act on them. Men that can't support their family and take off are scum and weak.
I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.
With that said, I'd like to add a new twist to our discussion. Imagine, if you will, a society where you don't have a choice. Imagine that you are only allowed, by your government, to have one and only one child.
As you know, for decades China has had a policy where if you have a child you will be forced to have an abortion if you get pregnant again. Imagine that, imagine that you are forced to have an abortion just because you get pregnant!
Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant. Am I correct that in your utopia abortion would be illegal?
So the way I see it, you're all for no choice. If a woman gets pregnant, no matter what the circumstance she has to bear the baby. But conversely, you're against forced abortion for all woman that get pregnant a second time. How can you be? If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies. Seems like quite a conundrum to me.
P.S. What about woman that will die if they take their baby to term? What if the baby's father is the father/brother/uncle of the mother and was raped? Does that woman get to murder the innocent baby or are you going to force her to carry to term?
Abortion=murder of innocent developing child.Originally Posted by Fergus
No Abortion=no murder of innocent developing child.
I see a difference in a place where murdering innocent children is illegal then a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.
The choice comes before not after sex. Once someone has made the choice to have sex the results must be accepted. People need to be responsible. If you don't want to have a child, dont put yourself in situations, or as you would coin it circumstances, that will cause you to have sex and become pregnant. In the case of rape, that is only 1% of pregnancies. I still do not see how it would be justified to have an abortion because of the fault of the raper. The woman will go through emotional struggles and physical pain during birth, but the child should not suffer because of the sin of the father. But again, many women who are raped had already put themselves in dangerous situations that could have been avoided beforehand.Originally Posted by Fergus
Strange you say that when you talk in a negative light about China. If you are so worried about overpopulation then maybe this country should stop focusing so much of its advertisement on sex. Preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place is what needs to be done.Originally Posted by Fergus
That was very noble of you, you gained my "respect" back (in terms of debatability ;))Originally Posted by Fergus
The only time I would ever consider allowing an abortion would be in the case of a mother who had no chance of living if the baby was born. Often times the baby will not be healthy either. A choice in this case will have to be made: Save the life of the mother or save the life of the child. A natural result of sex is pregnancy and if that mother did not want a child she should have been more careful. But death during pregnancy is not natural but an error.
Last edited by Mythic; 02-04-2009 at 01:31 AM.
If the mother will certainly die, as in the case of tubal pregnancy, then it is always best to save one life instead of losing both. As for a woman that will die if she carries to term, that is very seldom cut and dried, but still, if her actual life is at risk, a risk that a c-section cannot abate, then it is always better to save one. However, if her health condition is a risk of depression, her emotions are not more valuable than her child's life.
I think the biggest disconnect between the pro-choice and the pro-life view is the view of the child. That child is the same child whether he or she dies 11 weeks after conception, 11 years after conception, or 110 years after conception.
How many women do you know who had a child after considering abortion...and wish they'd gone ahead with the procedure? How many are endlessly grateful that they didn't?
The entire thesis of my thread here is this: I believe a woman should have a choice. Maybe she screwed up and go pregnant while having fun with her boyfriend, or maybe she got knocked up by her uncle, I believe she should have the choice to abort the pregnancy. I do not think abortion is murder.
Now with that said, what do you think should be the consequences for a woman that gets an abortion? You are very clear, abortion = murder. Therefore, all woman that get abortions are murderers. What is your solution to that? Should all women that get abortions be executed? Should they be hung, electrocuted, or shot in the head? How about gassed? Cyanide works, that kills. Should we as a society fill a room with woman that has had an abortion with cyanide and kill her?
I would love to know your solution to this problem of murdering babies.
If I can be presumptuous, I think you are making a mistake by thinking that everyone thinks like you do. Some of us aren't religious and some of us don't melt at the sight of a defenseless infant. Some of us don't get all gooey inside when we hold a baby and think they are cute and cuddly and adorable.
By all means I take no offense. I am just as prone to typos as anyone else. I meant to put "between" and "and" if that was confusing. But the rest of it is what I meant to say.Originally Posted by Fergus
I consider abortion the murder of innocent children.Originally Posted by Mythic
So in terms of plain old abortion, there is a difference between a place where abortion is illegal and a place where abortion is forced.
Place A: People are forced to murder innocent children (forced abortion)
Place B: People are forced not to murder innocent children (forced no abortion)
I was replying to your "choice" theory that the two are the same. The difference is that outlawing murder is a good thing, while forcing it is a bad thing.
Call it what you want, but abortion does end human life. My fundamental thesis would be: If a woman doesn't want a baby, she shouldn't have sex. If sex was forced upon a woman, the ending of the human life that has started the long process of development is in no way justified. The human life is innocent and has done no wrong.Originally Posted by Fergus
Currently there can be no punishment because abortion is legal. But if it were made illegal I do not see why the death penalty would be the option to chose. The mother did not want to kill the child out of a desire to accumulate wealth or out of anger or because she hated it...it would have been more likely that she had been raped or that she simply could not take care of a child and did not want to use the adoption option. Obviously the small amount of women who would go into an alley and get an illegal abortion would be smaller than those getting it legally today. The mother may fear giving birth. Death should not be punishment, that is far to extreme. I would say that a month in prison would suffice. Or maybe 9 months considering that is the amount of time the woman would have been pregnant. She killed the baby so instead she gets jailtime. Baby or jail? For those giving the abortions, a harsher punishment is fit. They just want the money. They provide the illegal service. The illegal abortion doctor would also be the one killing the child, not the mother (but the mother has equal blame because of her action to go to the doctor in the first place). I longer jail sentence and a fine should be given to illegal abortion doctors. Thats what I have to say for punishment.Originally Posted by Fergus
My point wasn't that the baby should be killed because it has no chance. I actually use that argument against abortion ironically. If the woman will die in childbirth, I see justice in allowing her to abort the pregnacny. This is where the choice comes in. Someone will die in either outcome.Originally Posted by Fergus
1. The woman chooses to save her life and abort her baby.
2. The woman chooses to give birth and in doing so loses her life.
Choice two sounds much more noble, but because in both cases a life (all lives are equal in worth) will be lost, somebody has to make the choice.
I have been constantly changing my position on this particular case.
Last edited by Mythic; 02-06-2009 at 12:18 AM.
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