Thread: This Child Wasn't Aborted

Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 104
  1. #81  
    Senior Member MrsSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,387
    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    I'm not talking about blowing up abortion clinics or vigilante, eye for an eye justice... simply looking for consistency in regards to punishments for murder.... and when I don't find it, it makes the rest of your beliefs, and most especially your rhetoric, suspect.
    When did I ever say that it shouldn't be prosecuted as murder? It is, after all. What I said was that our laws are wrong, but I still can't take them into my own hands. That doesn't change the fact that it'll all come right in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    I'm sorry for murderers who participate in drive by shootings, and armed robberies on some level too... something in their life truly sent them on the wrong path... not only is it wasteful when they kill a person, but also ensure that they truly miss out on whats great about life... but in the end they are responsible, whether they fully comprehend their wrongs or were cast into such desperate situations unfairly.. in the end they still are accountable.. and as regrettable as it is (in some cases) we have to send them to prison to protect the rest of lawful living people.

    If an embryo is equivelant to a real live, lawful, innocent person, you MUST advocate similar justice for mothers and doctors who do such a thing. At the very least, you should be strongly behind sending them to prison.... so they don't harm anyone else (since an embryo is a person to you). Your arguments all rely on convincing us that an innocent being is MURDERED... your words, not mine... so what are we to think about your convictions when you say "weeelll.... we'll just have compassion for the mothers, her ordeal was punishment enough"? What about an unrepentant woman who had an abortion... and made it known that she would have another if she got pregnant again... and plans to be sexually active. Is that not equivelent to a death threat? Are you not obligated to lock her up? Why would we not treat it the same.... more importantly, how can we not treat it the same, yet still believe you when you call abortion the murder of an innocent human being?

    You guys have some explaining to do ;)
    Murder is murder. Those that murder deserve punishment. I think I've said that before. I do have compassion for those stupid enough to believe that "it's only a clump of cells," or "it's not a real person until x date." I'd even have enough compassion to start a prison ministry for them.
    -
    -
    -

    In actual dollars, President Obama’s $4.4 trillion in deficit spending in just three years is 37 percent higher than the previous record of $3.2 trillion (held by President George W. Bush) in deficit spending for an entire presidency. It’s no small feat to demolish an 8-year record in just 3 years.

    Under Obama’s own projections, interest payments on the debt are on course to triple from 2010 (his first budgetary year) to 2018, climbing from $196 billion to $685 billion annually.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #82  
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by MrsSmith View Post
    And given that belief, you feel justified in supporting the absolute end for millions of lives every year. We each have only one shot at it, then nothing...and you are fine with millions being deliberately murdered before they have any chance at all.

    Aside from the breathtaking selfishness of an attitude like that, you're also wrong about my perspective. I've only been a Christian for 6 years now. I've always been pro-life because I've never been able to lie to myself effectively enough to believe it was OK to murder a child.


    You're going to help! :D What will you volunteer to do, assist in a few abortions on your day off? :D

    The facts are that Christians donate more time and money than any other segment of society. Conservatives as a whole come next. Those bleeding-heart liberals donate less than every other segment of society. So, which one are you?? :D
    Mrs. Smith,

    Yes, I'm fine with all that stuff you accuse me of. Yes, I'm fine with millions and millions of perfectly good babies getting slaughtered every year. I will sleep very well tonight, I might even sleep in late! The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.

    But that is not the reason I've been active in this discussion thread. You started it by calling me out. I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.

    People like you, people that judge without knowing any of the details make me think that you are nothing more than a lazy minded dolt. I actually feel sorry for people like you.

    Before you judge, know you are talking about and then take a moment to maybe resconsider your hate and direct it towards understanding and compassion.

    Oh, and by the way, I volunteer a huge amount of time to various social organizations here in my hometown. Not to toot my own horn but I haven't slept in on Christmas morning in 20 years. But seriously, I give quite a bit of time to my community.

    In closing, I have never assisted in an abortion, Mrs. Smith.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #83  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    352
    The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.
    They should have made that choice BEFORE having sex and not AFTER the baby had already started to develop.
    I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.
    Oh, so it is all about the circumstances. Well say I know someone whom has been harassing me and doing terrible things to me and there is nothing I can do about it. Would that justify the killing of that person? No.
    People in the abortion industry are removing a developing human child from the mother. Essentially that means murdering the child before it has a chance to even fend for itself.
    The fact that you have resorted to immature insults does not help further your cause; in fact it only degrades your ability to have an intelligent debate.
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
    -Ronald Reagan

    Life is a story; if you stay on the same page forever you will never finish it.
    "There are days you are the pigeon and days you are the statue."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #84  
    Senior Member MrsSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Mrs. Smith,

    Yes, I'm fine with all that stuff you accuse me of. Yes, I'm fine with millions and millions of perfectly good babies getting slaughtered every year. I will sleep very well tonight, I might even sleep in late! The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.

    But that is not the reason I've been active in this discussion thread. You started it by calling me out. I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.

    People like you, people that judge without knowing any of the details make me think that you are nothing more than a lazy minded dolt. I actually feel sorry for people like you.

    Before you judge, know you are talking about and then take a moment to maybe resconsider your hate and direct it towards understanding and compassion.

    Oh, and by the way, I volunteer a huge amount of time to various social organizations here in my hometown. Not to toot my own horn but I haven't slept in on Christmas morning in 20 years. But seriously, I give quite a bit of time to my community.

    In closing, I have never assisted in an abortion, Mrs. Smith.
    Do you approve of women killing their children after birth because of their circumstances? Exactly which details would you need to know to approve of someone murdering a 2 year old? If the kid is really nasty and breaks a lot of stuff? If the kid is Downs Syndrome, or doesn't sleep at night, or Mom's new boyfriend doesn't like kids? Seriously, Fergy, what circumstances allow murder?

    Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I've given birth to 5 kids, and miscarried 2. I've walked the pro-life road in every circumstance.
    No money...check.
    Dad split...check.
    No job...check.
    No family or other support...check.
    I considered abortion, but could not committ murder...check.

    I've held in my hand the body of an 11-week fetus...and he was perfect. He was a boy, perfectly formed, completely a human being...and he now lies in the cemetary with my great-grandparents and the son they lost at birth.

    There are NO circumstances that make it OK to murder your child...at any age.

    Just for the record, I hate no one. I feel great pity for those deluded enough to embrace murder, and great sorrow for those innocent lives sacrificed to the god of money or convenience.
    -
    -
    -

    In actual dollars, President Obama’s $4.4 trillion in deficit spending in just three years is 37 percent higher than the previous record of $3.2 trillion (held by President George W. Bush) in deficit spending for an entire presidency. It’s no small feat to demolish an 8-year record in just 3 years.

    Under Obama’s own projections, interest payments on the debt are on course to triple from 2010 (his first budgetary year) to 2018, climbing from $196 billion to $685 billion annually.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #85  
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by MrsSmith View Post
    Do you approve of women killing their children after birth because of their circumstances? Exactly which details would you need to know to approve of someone murdering a 2 year old? If the kid is really nasty and breaks a lot of stuff? If the kid is Downs Syndrome, or doesn't sleep at night, or Mom's new boyfriend doesn't like kids? Seriously, Fergy, what circumstances allow murder?

    Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I've given birth to 5 kids, and miscarried 2. I've walked the pro-life road in every circumstance.
    No money...check.
    Dad split...check.
    No job...check.
    No family or other support...check.
    I considered abortion, but could not committ murder...check.

    I've held in my hand the body of an 11-week fetus...and he was perfect. He was a boy, perfectly formed, completely a human being...and he now lies in the cemetery with my great-grandparents and the son they lost at birth.

    There are NO circumstances that make it OK to murder your child...at any age.

    Just for the record, I hate no one. I feel great pity for those deluded enough to embrace murder, and great sorrow for those innocent lives sacrificed to the god of money or convenience.
    MrsSmith,

    Before I respond to you I want to tell you that I believe everything you say. I believe that you've had a difficult time and it's a testament to your character that you've been able to make the decisions that you have, and then actually act on them. Men that can't support their family and take off are scum and weak.

    I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.

    With that said, I'd like to add a new twist to our discussion. Imagine, if you will, a society where you don't have a choice. Imagine that you are only allowed, by your government, to have one and only one child.

    As you know, for decades China has had a policy where if you have a child you will be forced to have an abortion if you get pregnant again. Imagine that, imagine that you are forced to have an abortion just because you get pregnant!

    Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant. Am I correct that in your utopia abortion would be illegal?

    So the way I see it, you're all for no choice. If a woman gets pregnant, no matter what the circumstance she has to bear the baby. But conversely, you're against forced abortion for all woman that get pregnant a second time. How can you be? If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies. Seems like quite a conundrum to me.

    P.S. What about woman that will die if they take their baby to term? What if the baby's father is the father/brother/uncle of the mother and was raped? Does that woman get to murder the innocent baby or are you going to force her to carry to term?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #86  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant.
    Abortion=murder of innocent developing child.
    No Abortion=no murder of innocent developing child.

    I see a difference in a place where murdering innocent children is illegal then a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    So the way I see it, you're all for no choice.
    The choice comes before not after sex. Once someone has made the choice to have sex the results must be accepted. People need to be responsible. If you don't want to have a child, dont put yourself in situations, or as you would coin it circumstances, that will cause you to have sex and become pregnant. In the case of rape, that is only 1% of pregnancies. I still do not see how it would be justified to have an abortion because of the fault of the raper. The woman will go through emotional struggles and physical pain during birth, but the child should not suffer because of the sin of the father. But again, many women who are raped had already put themselves in dangerous situations that could have been avoided beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies.
    Strange you say that when you talk in a negative light about China. If you are so worried about overpopulation then maybe this country should stop focusing so much of its advertisement on sex. Preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place is what needs to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.
    That was very noble of you, you gained my "respect" back (in terms of debatability ;))

    The only time I would ever consider allowing an abortion would be in the case of a mother who had no chance of living if the baby was born. Often times the baby will not be healthy either. A choice in this case will have to be made: Save the life of the mother or save the life of the child. A natural result of sex is pregnancy and if that mother did not want a child she should have been more careful. But death during pregnancy is not natural but an error.
    Last edited by Mythic; 02-04-2009 at 01:31 AM.
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
    -Ronald Reagan

    Life is a story; if you stay on the same page forever you will never finish it.
    "There are days you are the pigeon and days you are the statue."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #87  
    Senior Member MrsSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    MrsSmith,

    Before I respond to you I want to tell you that I believe everything you say. I believe that you've had a difficult time and it's a testament to your character that you've been able to make the decisions that you have, and then actually act on them. Men that can't support their family and take off are scum and weak.

    I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.

    With that said, I'd like to add a new twist to our discussion. Imagine, if you will, a society where you don't have a choice. Imagine that you are only allowed, by your government, to have one and only one child.

    As you know, for decades China has had a policy where if you have a child you will be forced to have an abortion if you get pregnant again. Imagine that, imagine that you are forced to have an abortion just because you get pregnant!

    Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant. Am I correct that in your utopia abortion would be illegal?

    So the way I see it, you're all for no choice. If a woman gets pregnant, no matter what the circumstance she has to bear the baby. But conversely, you're against forced abortion for all woman that get pregnant a second time. How can you be? If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies. Seems like quite a conundrum to me.

    P.S. What about woman that will die if they take their baby to term? What if the baby's father is the father/brother/uncle of the mother and was raped? Does that woman get to murder the innocent baby or are you going to force her to carry to term?
    Once a woman is pregnant, there are 2 lives at stake. She has no moral right to murder her child at any time in the child's life. If she was raped, it wasn't the child who committed the crime, and the child should not be punished for the father's crime. In fact, allowing rape as an excuse for abortion may well instead end up with women claiming a rape that didn't happen. The fathers already have no say in the fate of their children...the woman makes the choice between killing his child or taking him for support for 18 - 21 years. To then tell a woman that she can have an abortion if she swears she was raped...especially if she's angry at the guy for some reason...talk about giving her a way to really get even.

    If the mother will certainly die, as in the case of tubal pregnancy, then it is always best to save one life instead of losing both. As for a woman that will die if she carries to term, that is very seldom cut and dried, but still, if her actual life is at risk, a risk that a c-section cannot abate, then it is always better to save one. However, if her health condition is a risk of depression, her emotions are not more valuable than her child's life.

    I think the biggest disconnect between the pro-choice and the pro-life view is the view of the child. That child is the same child whether he or she dies 11 weeks after conception, 11 years after conception, or 110 years after conception.

    How many women do you know who had a child after considering abortion...and wish they'd gone ahead with the procedure? How many are endlessly grateful that they didn't?
    -
    -
    -

    In actual dollars, President Obama’s $4.4 trillion in deficit spending in just three years is 37 percent higher than the previous record of $3.2 trillion (held by President George W. Bush) in deficit spending for an entire presidency. It’s no small feat to demolish an 8-year record in just 3 years.

    Under Obama’s own projections, interest payments on the debt are on course to triple from 2010 (his first budgetary year) to 2018, climbing from $196 billion to $685 billion annually.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #88  
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
    I see a difference in a place where murdering innocent children is illegal then a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.
    I'm not the grammar police, far from it. I think you meant that you can see the difference between a world where a woman is forced to not have an abortion and a world where she is allowed to have an abortion. If I have that wrong correct me. Again, I'm not pouncing on what I think is a simple miswording. I do it all the time.

    The entire thesis of my thread here is this: I believe a woman should have a choice. Maybe she screwed up and go pregnant while having fun with her boyfriend, or maybe she got knocked up by her uncle, I believe she should have the choice to abort the pregnancy. I do not think abortion is murder.

    Now with that said, what do you think should be the consequences for a woman that gets an abortion? You are very clear, abortion = murder. Therefore, all woman that get abortions are murderers. What is your solution to that? Should all women that get abortions be executed? Should they be hung, electrocuted, or shot in the head? How about gassed? Cyanide works, that kills. Should we as a society fill a room with woman that has had an abortion with cyanide and kill her?

    I would love to know your solution to this problem of murdering babies.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
    The only time I would ever consider allowing an abortion would be in the case of a mother who had no chance of living if the baby was born. Often times the baby will not be healthy either. A choice in this case will have to be made: Save the life of the mother or save the life of the child. A natural result of sex is pregnancy and if that mother did not want a child she should have been more careful. But death during pregnancy is not natural but an error.
    Who gets to make the call/decision that the baby has no chance if the mother is forced to carry the baby to term? You, the doctor, the husband, the girls parents, the woman? Thats a pretty subjective thing to say. Who are you to say who lives and who dies. After all, history is full of extraordinary men/women that were weak infants. If I recall President Eisenhower was a weak child. What if Ike had been aborted because his mother had some morning sickness?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #89  
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by MrsSmith View Post
    Once a woman is pregnant, there are 2 lives at stake. ....
    After reading your reply I have to say that is one of the best posts I have ever read. I don't agree with you, but you clearly show your commitment and are resolute. Again, I don't agree with you, but you are the only person in this discussion thread that has shown backbone and commitment. For what it's worth, I respect that.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrsSmith View Post
    How many women do you know who had a child after considering abortion...and wish they'd gone ahead with the procedure? How many are endlessly grateful that they didn't?
    I personally know three woman that are happy, 20 years after the fact, that they had abortions and are quite happy with their decision.

    If I can be presumptuous, I think you are making a mistake by thinking that everyone thinks like you do. Some of us aren't religious and some of us don't melt at the sight of a defenseless infant. Some of us don't get all gooey inside when we hold a baby and think they are cute and cuddly and adorable.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #90  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    I'm not the grammar police, far from it. I think you meant that you can see the difference between a world where a woman is forced to not have an abortion and a world where she is allowed to have an abortion. If I have that wrong correct me. Again, I'm not pouncing on what I think is a simple miswording. I do it all the time.
    By all means I take no offense. I am just as prone to typos as anyone else. I meant to put "between" and "and" if that was confusing. But the rest of it is what I meant to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic
    I see a difference between a place where murdering innocent children is illegal and a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.
    I consider abortion the murder of innocent children.
    So in terms of plain old abortion, there is a difference between a place where abortion is illegal and a place where abortion is forced.
    Place A: People are forced to murder innocent children (forced abortion)
    Place B: People are forced not to murder innocent children (forced no abortion)

    I was replying to your "choice" theory that the two are the same. The difference is that outlawing murder is a good thing, while forcing it is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    The entire thesis of my thread here is this: I believe a woman should have a choice. Maybe she screwed up and go pregnant while having fun with her boyfriend, or maybe she got knocked up by her uncle, I believe she should have the choice to abort the pregnancy. I do not think abortion is murder.
    Call it what you want, but abortion does end human life. My fundamental thesis would be: If a woman doesn't want a baby, she shouldn't have sex. If sex was forced upon a woman, the ending of the human life that has started the long process of development is in no way justified. The human life is innocent and has done no wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    Now with that said, what do you think should be the consequences for a woman that gets an abortion? You are very clear, abortion = murder. Therefore, all woman that get abortions are murderers. What is your solution to that? Should all women that get abortions be executed? Should they be hung, electrocuted, or shot in the head? How about gassed? Cyanide works, that kills. Should we as a society fill a room with woman that has had an abortion with cyanide and kill her?
    Currently there can be no punishment because abortion is legal. But if it were made illegal I do not see why the death penalty would be the option to chose. The mother did not want to kill the child out of a desire to accumulate wealth or out of anger or because she hated it...it would have been more likely that she had been raped or that she simply could not take care of a child and did not want to use the adoption option. Obviously the small amount of women who would go into an alley and get an illegal abortion would be smaller than those getting it legally today. The mother may fear giving birth. Death should not be punishment, that is far to extreme. I would say that a month in prison would suffice. Or maybe 9 months considering that is the amount of time the woman would have been pregnant. She killed the baby so instead she gets jailtime. Baby or jail? For those giving the abortions, a harsher punishment is fit. They just want the money. They provide the illegal service. The illegal abortion doctor would also be the one killing the child, not the mother (but the mother has equal blame because of her action to go to the doctor in the first place). I longer jail sentence and a fine should be given to illegal abortion doctors. Thats what I have to say for punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus
    Who gets to make the call/decision that the baby has no chance if the mother is forced to carry the baby to term? You, the doctor, the husband, the girls parents, the woman? Thats a pretty subjective thing to say. Who are you to say who lives and who dies. After all, history is full of extraordinary men/women that were weak infants. If I recall President Eisenhower was a weak child. What if Ike had been aborted because his mother had some morning sickness?
    My point wasn't that the baby should be killed because it has no chance. I actually use that argument against abortion ironically. If the woman will die in childbirth, I see justice in allowing her to abort the pregnacny. This is where the choice comes in. Someone will die in either outcome.
    1. The woman chooses to save her life and abort her baby.
    2. The woman chooses to give birth and in doing so loses her life.
    Choice two sounds much more noble, but because in both cases a life (all lives are equal in worth) will be lost, somebody has to make the choice.

    I have been constantly changing my position on this particular case.
    Last edited by Mythic; 02-06-2009 at 12:18 AM.
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
    -Ronald Reagan

    Life is a story; if you stay on the same page forever you will never finish it.
    "There are days you are the pigeon and days you are the statue."
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •