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  1. #11  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    Withdrawing support from South Korea would pressure North Korea to cooperate with U.S. demands?

    How does that work again?
    Make no mistake...N.K. isn't going to give up their nukes until they say they are.
    We've been "pressuring" them for 5 decades....and how's that working out for getting them to stop their testing in 94 and develop their weapons, or launch their first ICBM several years ago?
    And now we go to a Carrot approach and you suggest what we have been doing has worked. That' sdelusional! Sounds like our position is weakened not strengthened.
    Did you forget who borders them to their north? Did you forget who is going to be the economic giant this coming century? They are quite safe from us.

    You need to get a clue as to how the S.Korean people really feel about U.S troops and just how capable they are at controlling their destiny.
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    Make no mistake...N.K. isn't going to give up their nukes until they say they are.
    We've been "pressuring" them for 5 decades....and how's that working out for getting them to stop their testing in 94 and develop their weapons, or launch their first ICBM several years ago?
    You mean in '94, when Bill Clinton trusted North Korea solely on the word of their leader that they wouldn't develop nuclear weapons, and so lifted all sanctions? You're right, that is stupid diplomacy at work, hallmark of the Democrats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    And now we go to a Carrot approach and you suggest what we have been doing has worked. That' sdelusional! Sounds like our position is weakened not strengthened.
    Yes, our position is weakened because of the failed policies of Bill Clinton. No argument there. However, President Bush's approach has not been offering them benefits as Clinton did. Instead, he sanctioned N. Korea when they broke their promise. Now that they have agreed to comply again, he is removing foreign blocks.

    Look at this logically: Clinton gave N. Korea something for an empty promise, they broke their promise.
    Bush sanctioned N. Korea, they changed their position, now Bush is removing sanctions.

    The clear and obvious result? Sanctions worked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    Did you forget who borders them to their north? Did you forget who is going to be the economic giant this coming century? They are quite safe from us.
    In the last 4 years the growth of the US economy has exceeded the entire economy of China. Who is going to be the economic giant of the 21st century? The United States. And despite China being such a staunch ally of N. Korea and an economic giant, US sanctions against the country worked. If China is such a friend to N. Korea, why didn't they pour relief into N. Korea and circumvent our sanctions? Because they can't afford to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    You need to get a clue as to how the S.Korean people really feel about U.S troops and just how capable they are at controlling their destiny.
    I'm not aware of any animosity towards US troops from South Koreans. In fact, they tend to like Americans over there. Just more myth from the MSM that the rest of the world hates us. Pretty much only a few Western European countries and a couple in the Middle East dislike the United States. We are very well received in the rest of the world.

    So again, how does pulling aid from South Korea cripple North Korea's nuclear program? I'm waiting for a straight answer.
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  3. #13  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    You mean in '94, when Bill Clinton

    Biccat...I appreciate your responses and they are well taken....
    I hated him too and yes...that was a biggie...It's just not that simple that it was a stupid libtards fault.

    Pulling out of N.K does not cripple the program. It is way too late for that. Is that straight enough?

    How else were you to stop N.K. from development without interstate warfare?
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    I'm not aware of any animosity towards US troops from South Koreans. In fact, they tend to like Americans over there. Just more myth from the MSM that the rest of the world hates us.

    Back last fall my son went up to the DMZ for a field exercise. He was with the 1/72nd AR. As they were going through a little town the locals threw stuff at them and protested. They shouted "go home, we don't want you". These were regular folk, not college students.

    Recently there was a mass anti American protest outside the gates of Camp Casey.
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    I'm not aware of any animosity towards US troops from South Koreans. In fact, they tend to like Americans over there. Just more myth from the MSM that the rest of the world hates us. Pretty much only a few Western European countries and a couple in the Middle East dislike the United States. We are very well received in the rest of the world.
    I don't get my news from the MSM so I can't relate. I'll provide you with links to just how "popular" U.S. troops are in Korea later when I have time.....and I'll do it from conservative sites if you'd like?
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    Biccat...I appreciate your responses and they are well taken....
    I hated him too and yes...that was a biggie...It's just not that simple that it was a stupid libtards fault.

    Pulling out of N.K does not cripple the program. It is way too late for that. Is that straight enough?

    How else were you to stop N.K. from development without interstate warfare?
    Weren't you the one that said:
    "Sanctions don't do a thing but hurt the people. The leaders stay fat and happy no matter what."
    and:
    "How about making the regional nations take responsibility for their own security...for starters."

    So what alternatives are you proposing for disarming North Korea. The way I see it, sanctions are working. On your second point, I assumed you meant pulling our troops from South Korea. If you meant something else, then my bad. However, you still haven't proposed a viable alternative to sanctions, and how it would work.

    There are probably some people in South Korea who don't like us. But like Iraq (as shown in nearly every poll that the MSM releases), our presence is generally well liked and we bring a lot to the country.
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  7. #17  
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    Don’t know how true this is - just remember it from a while back.


    The Korean Quagmire / February 13, 2003

    Meanwhile, many South Koreans were beginning to resent the constant presence of American soldiers, the growing Americanization of their own society, and their pervasive feeling of dependence on a superpower that they felt might simply be using them to some extent as a base for military operations.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/korea.htm
    At Coretta Scott King's funeral in early 2006, Ethel Kennedy, the widow of Robert Kennedy, leaned over to him and whispered, "The torch is being passed to you." "A chill went up my spine," Obama told an aide. (Newsweek)
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    Weren't you the one that said:
    So what alternatives are you proposing for disarming North Korea. The way I see it, sanctions are working. On your second point, I assumed you meant pulling our troops from South Korea. If you meant something else, then my bad. However, you still haven't proposed a viable alternative to sanctions, and how it would work.
    There are probably some people in South Korea who don't like us. But like Iraq (as shown in nearly every poll that the MSM releases), our presence is generally well liked and we bring a lot to the country.
    Sanctions are usually far more effective against democracies than dictatorships, but even a dictatorship can feel the pinch. North Korea's economy is a shambles, and when a dictator can no longer keep his population fed, he's in danger, especially if his own high-living life-style is obvious to the population.

    BTW, the really interesting thing about how the Iraqi people perceive us is that we have become the final arbiter for almost all disputes because we are seen as a genuinely honest broker. Our troops don't loot or steal from the locals or abuse them, while Al Qaeda alienated many Iraqi tribes by demanding food, money and, believe it or not, women (Afghanistan had a very high percentage of widows, which made it possible for Al Qaeda members to marry into clans and cement alliances, while single Iraqi women were far more likely to be promised to someone within their clan, and the demand to marry pissed off a lot of the tribal sheiks). Also, Al Qaeda's means of dealing with disagreements with the tribes would've made Hitler's Einsatzgruppen cringe, while our troops put themselves at risk to protect the locals.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biccat View Post
    Weren't you the one that said:
    "Sanctions don't do a thing but hurt the people. The leaders stay fat and happy no matter what."
    and:
    "How about making the regional nations take responsibility for their own security...for starters."

    So what alternatives are you proposing for disarming North Korea. The way I see it, sanctions are working. On your second point, I assumed you meant pulling our troops from South Korea. If you meant something else, then my bad. However, you still haven't proposed a viable alternative to sanctions, and how it would work.

    There are probably some people in South Korea who don't like us. But like Iraq (as shown in nearly every poll that the MSM releases), our presence is generally well liked and we bring a lot to the country.
    Let's try this again. You're the one proposing to "disarm" NK. So let me clarify that I am for the same strategy that worked for 50 years against the USSR.
    It's too late to disarm Korea short of interstate war...Are you game for that in order to accomplish it?

    The regional powers can stop blood sucking subsidies off the American tax payers back and take control of their own damn security. They are more than capable.

    Removing U.S. troops is not a bad future idea, since you mistakenly believe that the poor S. Koreans are somehow weak and dependant on U.S. power. (S.Korean troops are some of the best soldiers on earth)
    It also speaks to less money being sucked off the American taxpayer for a country that holds no geopolitical worth nor natural resources to plunder...

    The NK has Nukes since 94'....so how again are 50 odd years of sanctions working? Since you think they are.

    It's not just "some" of the Koreans that aren't to cuddly with U.S. troops. It's a whole hell of alot of people pissed off over things such as property rights..specifically lease agreements that don't favor Korean citizens. Good thing Koreans don't strap bombs to their bodies...because a damn Muslim would do it over some of what's gone on. Whether we "bring alot" to the Korean's is a moot point since some people forget to ask if they want what we got.
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    Let's try this again. You're the one proposing to "disarm" NK. So let me clarify that I am for the same strategy that worked for 50 years against the USSR.
    It's too late to disarm Korea short of interstate war...Are you game for that in order to accomplish it?
    Sanctions have worked to get them to open up, I don't see why they wouldn't work further. See here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    The regional powers can stop blood sucking subsidies off the American tax payers back and take control of their own damn security. They are more than capable.
    Who are the regional powers here? China isn't going to do anything. South Korea has too much of a history with North Korea to act. Any interference by Japan is going to PO the Chinese, and Japan would have to rebuild their offensive capabilities first. Russia doesn't have much of a presence in the region.

    So who's left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    Removing U.S. troops is not a bad future idea, since you mistakenly believe that the poor S. Koreans are somehow weak and dependant on U.S. power. (S.Korean troops are some of the best soldiers on earth)
    It also speaks to less money being sucked off the American taxpayer for a country that holds no geopolitical worth nor natural resources to plunder...
    I think that we have significant interests remaining in South Korea. And with the threat of China sending military aid to N. Korea, our presence there is a deterrent. An attack on our troops in S. Korea means war with the U.S. An attack on S. Korean troops means war with S. Korea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    The NK has Nukes since 94'....so how again are 50 odd years of sanctions working? Since you think they are.
    Nukes since '94? They didn't test a nuke until 2006. I don't see how you figure that one. As for years of sanctions, like I said, the Clinton years are largely responsible because of the lack of oversight of N. Korea's nuclear ambitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    It's not just "some" of the Koreans that aren't to cuddly with U.S. troops. It's a whole hell of alot of people pissed off over things such as property rights..specifically lease agreements that don't favor Korean citizens. Good thing Koreans don't strap bombs to their bodies...because a damn Muslim would do it over some of what's gone on. Whether we "bring alot" to the Korean's is a moot point since some people forget to ask if they want what we got.
    I propose dropping this issue for the time. It seems like a tangent to the actual issue of the effectiveness of sanctions in getting N. Korea to disarm.
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