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  1. #31  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    Back to the original subject-my sister donated umbilical cords for stem cells after each of her children's births. I don't know anything about what kind of research has been done with umbilical cells, but it is a way to get donated stem cells that doesn't involve abortion.
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  2. #32  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch
    Back to the original subject-my sister donated umbilical cords for stem cells after each of her children's births. I don't know anything about what kind of research has been done with umbilical cells, but it is a way to get donated stem cells that doesn't involve abortion.
    I don't think stem cell research is wrong if it doesn't involve killing someone (a fetus included).

    Unfortunately I have to comment in the other argument sorry...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie
    While I don't think abortion is necessarily the answer for getting out of poverty, I don't think condemning people for having sex and trying to teach them a lesson is either.
    How would abortion ever be the answer to get out of poverty? What do you mean "necessarily"? If you are poor and get pregnant you wont have a boost in social status if you have an abortion. And the pro-life side does not condemn the women. Nobody advoctates that. What is advocated is that women AND men (it is not a feminist issue, sorry) abstain from sex if they do not want children. You think of "teaching a lesson" the wrong way. When you were young, if you had good parents, you would be in some way punished for, say, hitting a kid at school. They would teach you a lesson (not in the sense of beating you) and advise you on how not to do what you did again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie
    One problem I have with conservative ideas is that it's like "Here's your chance. If you screw up one time, too bad. You don't deserve a second chance".
    Uh-oh. You have fallen victim to the leftist made-up pro-life arguments. Nobody tells women that if they screw up, too bad. The Pro-Life movement actually has many ways of helping women before, during, and after pregnancies. The pro-choice side says that the best help is to simply kill the baby and try to forget about it. And a chance at what? Conservatives are all about trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies. If a pregnancy occurs they simply advise women not to kill their baby because that is clearly not the right choice. There are plenty of facilities that aim to help women in situations they did not want to be a part of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie
    I think people should be given a chance to straighten their life out if they've made a mess out of it. Why? Because condemning isn't doing any good.
    First of all...nobody is condemning women. Liberals tell you that conservatives are condemning them, but we don't. We care greatly for the women, and we know how tough her situation is. Of course people should be able to straighten out there life. Who would disagree with that? You argue against phantom points made up by the Pro-Choice movement to make the right seem heartless.
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
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  3. #33  
    I'm hyper. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
    I don't think stem cell research is wrong if it doesn't involve killing someone (a fetus included).

    Unfortunately I have to comment in the other argument sorry...

    How would abortion ever be the answer to get out of poverty? What do you mean "necessarily"? If you are poor and get pregnant you wont have a boost in social status if you have an abortion. And the pro-life side does not condemn the women. Nobody advoctates that. What is advocated is that women AND men (it is not a feminist issue, sorry) abstain from sex if they do not want children. You think of "teaching a lesson" the wrong way. When you were young, if you had good parents, you would be in some way punished for, say, hitting a kid at school. They would teach you a lesson (not in the sense of beating you) and advise you on how not to do what you did again.


    Uh-oh. You have fallen victim to the leftist made-up pro-life arguments. Nobody tells women that if they screw up, too bad. The Pro-Life movement actually has many ways of helping women before, during, and after pregnancies. The pro-choice side says that the best help is to simply kill the baby and try to forget about it. And a chance at what? Conservatives are all about trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies. If a pregnancy occurs they simply advise women not to kill their baby because that is clearly not the right choice. There are plenty of facilities that aim to help women in situations they did not want to be a part of.


    First of all...nobody is condemning women. Liberals tell you that conservatives are condemning them, but we don't. We care greatly for the women, and we know how tough her situation is. Of course people should be able to straighten out there life. Who would disagree with that? You argue against phantom points made up by the Pro-Choice movement to make the right seem heartless.
    I don't really agree with this concept that it's society's job to punish women and teach them a lesson. One lie from the right is that abortion is some easy and convenient choice. IT'S NOT. Many women don't really want to have an abortion. Heck, I remember reading years ago that a lot of the women who do this in some of the other countries are married. What did *they* do wrong? Abortion is surgery. There's nothing convenient about surgery. Abortion costs a lot of money. Not convenient. The most "convenient" thing for women would be not to be pregnant in the first place.

    Abortion does not get women out of poverty. However, if a woman is trying to get out of poverty and she has a baby, her opportunities to get out of poverty are much more limited. It's harder to finish school (which helps to get a good paying job for many). Employers will discriminate against pregnant women. And here's the funny thing. When women try to say they shouldn't have to choose between their job and their unborn baby, it's normally liberals who side with them. Conservatives often argue that the company should have a right to do what they want to, and that government shouldn't interfere. So which side is helping pregnant women who want to keep their babies here?

    The Pro-life Pregnancy Resource Centers. I'll cut to the chase. Pro-choicers and some of the people who have been to those centers say the aim is to get them to give up their baby. You know how you say choicers are all about the abortion choice? Well, the accusation against the pro-life centers is that they're trying to get women to give up their babies as if *that* is their only choice.

    I know for a fact that most pro-choicers are not all about the abortion choice because I've met several of them. Even the hardliner activists. I know what they're actually like. I once heard of one who suggested to a woman that she not have an abortion because it wouldn't be right *for her*. The idea that they're only for the abortion choice is a lie the "pro-life" movement made up. (I said they lie. This is one of their lies). Some of them may be a little bit zealous about their politics, but they normally don't prefer abortion. In my entire life, I've met several pro-choicers and only met two who actually had a preference to abortion. I knew another woman who was offensively close to that position, but not quite there.

    You say you don't condemn women. That's great. It certainly feels that way, especially when you talk about how society needs to "punish" people.
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  4. #34  
    I'm hyper. Lanie's Avatar
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    Oh, and for those of you who have known me for forever and a day, I'm personally pro-life now. I say personally because I don't know what political position I should be taking. Most people agree that exceptions should be made for the mother's life. I know for a fact that a woman's life is in danger a lot more often than medically diagnosed. It's hard to explain. My change of heart all started when I started working with Special Ed kids. There are different levels of kids in Special Ed. Some of them have very mild problems. Some of them have very severe problems. Some of them will never be able to take care of themselves or hold down a job. At the same time, they all have their own personalities. All I could think was that if they were a fetus, it would be considered "okay" to terminate the pregnancy. I see people who say they're pro-life talk about how they would make an exception if the baby were retarded. That offends me. They're people too. We always hear about the retarded or Autistic kid who got too violent or something in the media. In reality, a lot of them are really sweet. When they learn right, a lot of them actually behave a lot better than "normal" kids. They'll accept each other's differences in a way that we don't. I think they offer a lot more than people realize to the human race. And yet there are ideas that say that it's okay to kill them if they're unborn. They're are even ideas that one is better off not existing than to live that way. Who are we to make that choice?

    Obviously, that's one of the most uncommon reasons for abortion, but the whole thing made me think more about the value of life. So I actually agree with a lot of you all now a days. I still don't like how the pro-life movement does things though. It's wrong on so many levels. I realize some of you all are still offended at my current status. Just consider that it's less "offensive" than before. Maybe?
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  5. #35  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
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    I don't really agree with this concept that it's society's job to punish women and teach them a lesson.
    Well good, thats not the philosophy. You are completely missing the point.
    One lie from the right is that abortion is some easy and convenient choice. IT'S NOT.
    Abortion is not an easy choice. The right advocates having an abortion is favored because it is easier to have an abortion that to go through a pregnacny.

    Employers will discriminate against pregnant women. And here's the funny thing. When women try to say they shouldn't have to choose between their job and their unborn baby, it's normally liberals who side with them. Conservatives often argue that the company should have a right to do what they want to, and that government shouldn't interfere. So which side is helping pregnant women who want to keep their babies here?
    What right does the government have to force companies to hire pregnant women? Are you suggesting that most women who work and are pregnant get fired? That is not true at all.
    The Pro-life Pregnancy Resource Centers. I'll cut to the chase. Pro-choicers and some of the people who have been to those centers say the aim is to get them to give up their baby. You know how you say choicers are all about the abortion choice? Well, the accusation against the pro-life centers is that they're trying to get women to give up their babies as if *that* is their only choice.
    Well, if the woman is going to complain about how she will be in greater poverty with a child, it is best for both the child and the mother to give the baby up for adoption. Thats the hard choice the woman has to make. If the woman does not want a baby giving the baby up for adoption is pretty much the choice she will have to make. Abortion will kill it, and that is wrong.
    Some of them may be a little bit zealous about their politics, but they normally don't prefer abortion. In my entire life, I've met several pro-choicers and only met two who actually had a preference to abortion. I knew another woman who was offensively close to that position, but not quite there.
    The point is that killing should never be a legal choice. It doesn't matter how often someone says they are for abortion, if they are pro-choice they are pro-abortion.
    You say you don't condemn women. That's great. It certainly feels that way, especially when you talk about how society needs to "punish" people.
    When did I say that women should be punished? Are you referring to my child punishment reference? If somebody does something wrong, they should be told not to do it again...if a kid constantly bullies another kid a parent must tell the kid what they did is wrong...
    A baby isn't a punishment. It is simply the natural result of a pregnancy.
    see people who say they're pro-life talk about how they would make an exception if the baby were retarded. That offends me.
    Any one who says something like that is definately not pro-life, no matter what they say. It offends me too.
    Who are we to make that choice?
    Well thats great that you are personally pro-life. I don't understand why you are arguing against me though...
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
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  6. #36  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    The issue here is that there will be even more of a profit motive to abort fetuses, and that this will encourage more abortions, especially late term, when the organs are more fully developed. The worst part is that, if the prices are high enough, some women will get pregnant in order to harvest the fetal organs. This has to be stopped now.
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  7. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Obviously, that's one of the most uncommon reasons for abortion, but the whole thing made me think more about the value of life. So I actually agree with a lot of you all now a days. I still don't like how the pro-life movement does things though. It's wrong on so many levels. I realize some of you all are still offended at my current status. Just consider that it's less "offensive" than before. Maybe?
    Welcome to the fold, Bridget. It's a complex and sometimes painful position to advocate for the unborn but the big moral issues often are painful. It's difficult to counsel a raped woman to live with a horrifically unwanted pregnancy until she can give the child into adoption. It's hard to tell a pregnant woman that the tests might be wrong and her child might be fine or fine "as is" - she'll have to wait and see.

    In the end on purely pragmatic grounds, if a culture can't or won't protect its most vulnerable members, you can bet that it will eventually fail to protect the next most vulnerable members (and the next and the next...). ;)
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  8. #38  
    I'm hyper. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
    Well good, thats not the philosophy. You are completely missing the point.

    Abortion is not an easy choice. The right advocates having an abortion is favored because it is easier to have an abortion that to go through a pregnacny.


    What right does the government have to force companies to hire pregnant women? Are you suggesting that most women who work and are pregnant get fired? That is not true at all.

    Well, if the woman is going to complain about how she will be in greater poverty with a child, it is best for both the child and the mother to give the baby up for adoption. Thats the hard choice the woman has to make. If the woman does not want a baby giving the baby up for adoption is pretty much the choice she will have to make. Abortion will kill it, and that is wrong.

    The point is that killing should never be a legal choice. It doesn't matter how often someone says they are for abortion, if they are pro-choice they are pro-abortion.

    When did I say that women should be punished? Are you referring to my child punishment reference? If somebody does something wrong, they should be told not to do it again...if a kid constantly bullies another kid a parent must tell the kid what they did is wrong...
    A baby isn't a punishment. It is simply the natural result of a pregnancy.

    Any one who says something like that is definately not pro-life, no matter what they say. It offends me too.

    Well thats great that you are personally pro-life. I don't understand why you are arguing against me though...
    Why am I arguing against you? I think this started as me speaking in favor of stem cell research (because I don't think a fertilized egg is an individual since it can divide). I later told Policon that the anti-abortion movement lies. I can't remember where you came in. I guess I'm arguing with you because the anti-abortion movement is taking a lot of wrong approaches. It's not just abortion. I don't trust the anti-war movement either anymore. Some activist movements just have a bunch of horrible tactics, and I see people falling for them.

    If a woman is poor, why should her only options be abortion or adoption?
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  9. #39  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    I later told Policon that the anti-abortion movement lies.
    you told me the lies the pro-abortionists believe about pro-lifers.
    Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
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  10. #40  
    I'm hyper. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    Welcome to the fold, Bridget. It's a complex and sometimes painful position to advocate for the unborn but the big moral issues often are painful. It's difficult to counsel a raped woman to live with a horrifically unwanted pregnancy until she can give the child into adoption. It's hard to tell a pregnant woman that the tests might be wrong and her child might be fine or fine "as is" - she'll have to wait and see.

    In the end on purely pragmatic grounds, if a culture can't or won't protect its most vulnerable members, you can bet that it will eventually fail to protect the next most vulnerable members (and the next and the next...). ;)
    Well, I wouldn't say I go that far. I once knew a woman who got raped. He ended up with migraines so bad that her Catholic doctor suggested an abortion to save her life (the migraines from the concept of giving birth to a baby conceived in rape were that bad for her). I'm still thinking I don't really know what it's like to be in *that* woman's shoes.

    I just think that the value of life is being degraded. During the Palin drama, I heard ideas saying she was immoral to give birth to that baby with Downs Syndrom. What? I've heard of arguments that Euthanasia should be done in cases other than fatal diseases. Why is it that if the baby is born early, the parents are being asked if they give permission to save the baby? I suppose it can be argued that it's a parental consent issue, and that the same applies to any medical treatment of a minor. I've always thought though that if the child's life depends on something, the doctors should just do it. Need a blood transfusion? Do it. Who cares if the parents are JWs? Anyway, back to babies born with problems, I'm wondering if the parents would still be asked for consent if the baby wasn't just born.

    And once those who are different are born, there's a debate about what to do with them. Can they be with the rest of society or should they be shut off? Can they contribute anything to society?

    I could rant on and on. I just think there's a big problem with not understanding the value of life at times.
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