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  1. #11  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricMartin View Post
    Christians say that God is the standard of value, while Communists say that the Collective is the standard of value. Of course Communists are every bit as mystical as the Christians, as there is no such thing as "The Collective" -- there's only a number of Individuals. Objectivists recognize the Individual as the standard of value. The period in history which has been most consonant with Objectivism, or rather secular individualism, is the Age of Enlightenment. During this age, most of the intellectual freethinkers -- including some of the Founding Fathers such as Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine -- were Deists, not Christians. Deism was the closest to Atheism at that time, as this was before Darwin's Theory of Evolution (which is every bit as solid as the Theory of Gravity).

    Most of my closest friends are Objectivists, or Atheist Libertarians, and they're honestly the most moral people that I know. As for myself, I study philosophy consistently and am deeply conscious about acting morally. I don't act morally because I want to please some other being, but because it's in my own self-interest to do so; if I act immorally it isn't St. Peter who would take note of it, but rather my own subconscious, and my subconscious is uncompromising -- immoral behavior would lead to a lack of self-esteem/self-worth and injure my pride.

    I believe the U.S. will be going through a moral revolution in the not too distant future -- based not on faith, but on reason and individualism. Objectivism is being taught at numerous colleges now, more and more high-profile individuals identify themselves as Objectivists, the staff from the Ayn Rand Institute are being invited to speak at numerous Republican conventions and television programs, the Wall Street Journal consistently publishes Objectivist material, the sales of Atlas Shrugged and various Objectivist literature has more than tripled since last year, everyone who's been following politics have learned the meaning of "Going Galt", there's been a surge of donations to the Ayn Rand Institute, and a new branch of ARI has opened in Washington. All of this will influence the culture greatly in the coming years -- especially as more people are realizing that Atlas Shrugged is coming true.

    In any case, I hope you found this informative. :)
    I have heard it said repeatly over the years that society does not need a concept of a deity in order to be a moral society, but history and human nature stands in contrast to this. You may act morally due to your conscious but it does not follow that you are the norm. In fact, some grow up with a strong moral background but due to a nilhistic view of the world and peer involvement come to condone and celebrate immoral behavior. In fact they adopt a philosophy that justifies their criminal/immoral behavior. There moral view point changed

    Morality under objectivism runs the risk of becoming fluid and in a state of flux. In fact relying on mankind to mantain some adherence to moral behavior demands for this to happen. What is moral today may be immoral tomorrow and what was immoral yesterday is moral today. Social morality can not survive in a state of constant change and when morality dies so does society. Examine the decadence and immorality that contributed to the fall of just about every major society in history. When there is no common source of morality, no yard stick to define a standard of behavior, society collapses in on itself. Didn't Keats say that the center fails to hold? If I have no concern of being held responsible for my actions either in this life or the life after then I am more likely to do what feels good and is easy whether these actions are right or wrong. It starts out with small things and then I kill my neighbor because he plays his stereo too loud.

    Why not? They law may not catch me and I have no God to answer too. Why don't I just do whatever it is that makes me feel good? Why do I need to concern myself with others who don't fill some need that I have? Why should I concern myself with your rights when those rights may infringe upon my happiness?

    I've heard talk of a new moral revolution that was just around the corner. In the 80s and 90s it was called new age-ism, as in the new age of mankind. Man was on the verge of the next step in his evolution. This was just a pipe dream of those who desired something better in life but felt that a relationship with God was too constraining. Faith open the door to belief but reason and rationality support faith. I use my ability to reason to find reasons not to believe, but I find none. I look at the world with rational eyes and a logical mind and I see God handiwork everywhere. Aristotle and Plato reasoned out the existence of a Creator using pure reason, but now people say that belief is not compatible with reason.

    At this point I have to ask. What gives you the impression that some moral change/revolution is about to occur? What signs do you see that lead you to believe that something that has never happened in the recorded history of man stands in the wings?

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member MrsSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricMartin View Post
    Christians say that God is the standard of value, while Communists say that the Collective is the standard of value. Of course Communists are every bit as mystical as the Christians, as there is no such thing as "The Collective" -- there's only a number of Individuals. Objectivists recognize the Individual as the standard of value. The period in history which has been most consonant with Objectivism, or rather secular individualism, is the Age of Enlightenment. During this age, most of the intellectual freethinkers -- including some of the Founding Fathers such as Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine -- were Deists, not Christians. Deism was the closest to Atheism at that time, as this was before Darwin's Theory of Evolution (which is every bit as solid as the Theory of Gravity).

    Most of my closest friends are Objectivists, or Atheist Libertarians, and they're honestly the most moral people that I know. As for myself, I study philosophy consistently and am deeply conscious about acting morally. I don't act morally because I want to please some other being, but because it's in my own self-interest to do so; if I act immorally it isn't St. Peter who would take note of it, but rather my own subconscious, and my subconscious is uncompromising -- immoral behavior would lead to a lack of self-esteem/self-worth and injure my pride.

    I believe the U.S. will be going through a moral revolution in the not too distant future -- based not on faith, but on reason and individualism. Objectivism is being taught at numerous colleges now, more and more high-profile individuals identify themselves as Objectivists, the staff from the Ayn Rand Institute are being invited to speak at numerous Republican conventions and television programs, the Wall Street Journal consistently publishes Objectivist material, the sales of Atlas Shrugged and various Objectivist literature has more than tripled since last year, everyone who's been following politics have learned the meaning of "Going Galt", there's been a surge of donations to the Ayn Rand Institute, and a new branch of ARI has opened in Washington. All of this will influence the culture greatly in the coming years -- especially as more people are realizing that Atlas Shrugged is coming true.

    In any case, I hope you found this informative. :)

    EDIT: Here's an interesting new article which illustrates one of my points.
    If your "objectivist thinking" and morality are as strict as the guy you quote in this thread, you're in a lot of trouble. Baseless lies are no way to reach any goal.

    The US may well go through a revolution...but Christ will be waiting when we fall on our "collective" faces and turn back to Him.
    -
    -
    -

    In actual dollars, President Obama’s $4.4 trillion in deficit spending in just three years is 37 percent higher than the previous record of $3.2 trillion (held by President George W. Bush) in deficit spending for an entire presidency. It’s no small feat to demolish an 8-year record in just 3 years.

    Under Obama’s own projections, interest payments on the debt are on course to triple from 2010 (his first budgetary year) to 2018, climbing from $196 billion to $685 billion annually.
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  3. #13  
    Senior Member AlmostThere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricMartin View Post
    I strongly disagree with that. Philosophy would remain -- such as the philosophy of Objectivism. As long as man has to make choices, there is no escape from moral values. Morality can never become unnecessary.
    You think if religion was eliminated we wouldn't become a nation of hedonists. We practically fit that description now and a majority of the population believes in a God. Take God totally out of the picture and I think all hell would break loose, (pardon the pun).
    Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member AlmostThere's Avatar
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    And this is the same state where a class of small children were herded off to celebrate the wedding of 2 lesbians. When and how did we get here? I know all the canned answers, but why did we allow this to happen? I'm glad my grandmother isn't with us anymore. She'd be REALLY pissed at us for allowing this.
    Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostThere View Post
    You think if religion was eliminated we wouldn't become a nation of hedonists. We practically fit that description now and a majority of the population believes in a God. Take God totally out of the picture and I think all hell would break loose, (pardon the pun).
    If you believe in the god of the Bible then you have to believe that it gave us free will and reason so that we would have the ability choose between right and wrong. If our morality depends on a god being in control then we're essentially puppets.
    Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    I believe the U.S. will be going through a moral revolution in the not too distant future -- based not on faith, but on reason and individualism.
    I consider myself to be anti-theist in the vein of Christopher Hitchens but unlike him I believe that religion has its uses. I believe that for a very small segment of society religion is a necessary proxy for morality. In other words, the promise of reward and fear of punishment is, in some cases, the only thing keeping people with sociopathic tendencies from behaving badly in circumstances when the law is not around.
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  7. #17  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    Obviously, the "christian music" the kids were exposed to was not U2 or Dylan. How does one define christian music? Is it music that you can only find at "christian" book stores? If they hear a black gospel choir, is that considered offensive christian music, or traditional african-american music?


    This is bull, and I hope the counselor is taking legal action. I can see so many different ways that he could fight this.
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    Obviously, the "christian music" the kids were exposed to was not U2 or Dylan. How does one define christian music? Is it music that you can only find at "christian" book stores? If they hear a black gospel choir, is that considered offensive christian music, or traditional african-american music?
    For the record (no pun intended), Bob Dylan is an atheist.
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 03-18-2009 at 09:15 AM.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity...

    Would anyone here object to kids in a publicly funded group home being exposed to Islamic music?
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  10. #20  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    without some concept of the divine - morality is relative and transient.
    Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
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