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  1. #11  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    And as I have stated in the past - culture and religion and politics in islamic countries are one and the same with some very rare exceptions. Sorry - but you're going to have to prove a buddhist father would ask such of a daughter. If a Christian father would do it - it would only be because that family is immersed already in islamic culture. And as for the hindu - they wouldn't ask - they'd do it themselves.
    Upper Caste Village in Northern India Proud of “honour Killing” of Couple

    British police probing `honour killings' of Asian women

    Bodies of 2 men found in Rehovot apt.; 1 of men's wife also found dead

    I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed the. Would you not classify those as honor killings? If not they what is the difference when someone from India set's his wife on fire because of a poor dowry or suspected affair? What about those who claim to be Christian who are in jail right now because a neighbor offended them and they killed the neighbor?

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  2. #12  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Upper Caste Village in Northern India Proud of “honour Killing” of Couple

    British police probing `honour killings' of Asian women

    Bodies of 2 men found in Rehovot apt.; 1 of men's wife also found dead

    I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed the. Would you not classify those as honor killings? If not they what is the difference when someone from India set's his wife on fire because of a poor dowry or suspected affair? What about those who claim to be Christian who are in jail right now because a neighbor offended them and they killed the neighbor?
    Gator how does this rebut the statement you quoted?
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    [I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed them. Would you not classify those as honor killings?
    No. I would classify those as "I'm mad as hell at you, asshole, and we have guns in the house" killings.
    "Today, [the American voter] chooses his rulers as he buys bootleg whiskey, never knowing precisely what he is getting, only certain that it is not what it pretends to be." - H.L. Mencken
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  4. #14  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    As we have dicussed in the past, this is cultural and not religious as any father from a culture that supports this behavior would ask this of their daughters, that includes Hindu, Buddhist and Christian fathers from parts of African and Western Asia. You do paint with a big brush when assigning blame strictly to the Muslims for this type of behavior.
    Except for Sihks, it's almost entirely a Moslem phenomenon, and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity. We see this wherever Islam, especially Wahhabi Islam, takes root, even in the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Upper Caste Village in Northern India Proud of “honour Killing” of Couple

    British police probing `honour killings' of Asian women

    Bodies of 2 men found in Rehovot apt.; 1 of men's wife also found dead

    I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed the. Would you not classify those as honor killings? If not they what is the difference when someone from India set's his wife on fire because of a poor dowry or suspected affair? What about those who claim to be Christian who are in jail right now because a neighbor offended them and they killed the neighbor?
    The Islamists attempt to lump honor killings under domestic violence in order to mask the unique nature of the culture that encourages them, but there are significant differences.
    • First, in most domestic violence, the rest of the family does not participate. It is extremely rare for a husband to kill his wife with the aid of other family members, except when it is an honor killing. In fact, honor killings often involve many other family members, including female relatives, who actively aid and abet the act.
    • This leads to the second major difference, which is that in a non-honor-related domestic violence case, the perpetrator is a pariah. We, as a culture and a nation, detest men who abuse women and children and punish them. The families and communities of abusers invariably side with the victim, not the perpetrator, but in honor killings, the family and larger community sides with the killer.
    • Third, most conventional domestic violence is done in the heat of the moment and is rarely planned, and even if it is premeditated, the instigation involves more than simply not following the orders of a male relative. A spousal murder usually involves and affair or money, while honor killings are motivated by shame, and they are premeditated, often involving months of planning and coordination between family members, community members and, in some countries, the authorities.
    • Finally, honor killings aren't just husband/wife violence. In almost no other context of domestic violence do you see brothers, uncles and cousins killing adult relatives, or parents killing children.
    Don't be confused by the broad brushstrokes. This is a unique issue within Islam, where it transcends the Arab and south Asian cultures. Turks, for example, are not Arabs, nor are Moros in the Philippines. A practice that is prevalent among Moslems from the United States to Thailand is a practice that is sanctioned by the religious authorities in Islam and the culture that Islam fosters.
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  5. #15  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Except for Sihks, it's almost entirely a Moslem phenomenon, and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity. We see this wherever Islam, especially Wahhabi Islam, takes root, even in the US.

    The Islamists attempt to lump honor killings under domestic violence in order to mask the unique nature of the culture that encourages them, but there are significant differences.
    • First, in most domestic violence, the rest of the family does not participate. It is extremely rare for a husband to kill his wife with the aid of other family members, except when it is an honor killing. In fact, honor killings often involve many other family members, including female relatives, who actively aid and abet the act.
    • This leads to the second major difference, which is that in a non-honor-related domestic violence case, the perpetrator is a pariah. We, as a culture and a nation, detest men who abuse women and children and punish them. The families and communities of abusers invariably side with the victim, not the perpetrator, but in honor killings, the family and larger community sides with the killer.
    • Third, most conventional domestic violence is done in the heat of the moment and is rarely planned, and even if it is premeditated, the instigation involves more than simply not following the orders of a male relative. A spousal murder usually involves and affair or money, while honor killings are motivated by shame, and they are premeditated, often involving months of planning and coordination between family members, community members and, in some countries, the authorities.
    • Finally, honor killings aren't just husband/wife violence. In almost no other context of domestic violence do you see brothers, uncles and cousins killing adult relatives, or parents killing children.
    Don't be confused by the broad brushstrokes. This is a unique issue within Islam, where it transcends the Arab and south Asian cultures. Turks, for example, are not Arabs, nor are Moros in the Philippines. A practice that is prevalent among Moslems from the United States to Thailand is a practice that is sanctioned by the religious authorities in Islam and the culture that Islam fosters.
    Then how do you account for the large number of hindu honor killings over dowries or that honor killings occur in areas with mixed religious affiliations? Also, honor killings have historically happened long before the invention of Islam.

    It seems the difinition of honor killings has been has been set up to exclude must other groups other than muslims. I personally use a broader difinition of honor killings.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 03-30-2009 at 11:15 AM.

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  6. #16  
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    From what I have read about them, they are more about tribal interests than they are about a religious mandate.
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  7. #17  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linda22003 View Post
    From what I have read about them, they are more about tribal interests than they are about a religious mandate.
    linda - those are one and the same in islam.
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  8. #18  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Then how do you account for the large number of hindu honor killings over dowries or that honor killings occur in areas with mixed religious affiliations? Also, honor killings have historically happened long before the invention of Islam.

    It seems the difinition of honor killings has been has been set up to exclude must other groups other than muslims. I personally use a broader difinition of honor killings.
    did you even read his post? lol
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  9. #19  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linda22003 View Post
    From what I have read about them, they are more about tribal interests than they are about a religious mandate.
    Exactly. I from everything that I have read, the are cultural and in the case of Islam, they predate the establishment of the Muslim belief system. We happen to associate honor killings with Islamic beliefs because the areas where Islam was originally established practiced honor killings and the concept was incorporated in to the acceptable practices of the religion. The area's that are now predominately Muslim, the Middle East and the Near East were originally Verdic (Hindu) and honor killings are a custom of that philosophy/religion as will and predates Islam by a thousand years or more.

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  10. #20  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Exactly. I from everything that I have read, the are cultural and in the case of Islam, they predate the establishment of the Muslim belief system. We happen to associate honor killings with Islamic beliefs because the areas where Islam was originally established practiced honor killings and the concept was incorporated in to the acceptable practices of the religion. The area's that are now predominately Muslim, the Middle East and the Near East were originally Verdic (Hindu) and honor killings are a custom of that philosophy/religion as will and predates Islam by a thousand years or more.
    Honour kills were a part of pre-islamic arabian beliefs - the self same be4lief set which because islamic beliefs.
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