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  1. #21  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    did you even read his post? lol
    Yes I did and your sarcasm is not appreciated. I still think that the definition for honor killings has been intentionally redefined to exclude most everyone but muslims. It is a example of hate transforming culture and makes those who practice it not much different than the Mohammadans. You dispise the Muslims (I use you in a general way not you specifically) so you lay every negative practice at their feet, not much different than they do with Jews and Christians.

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  2. #22  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    Honour kills were a part of pre-islamic arabian beliefs - the self same be4lief set which because islamic beliefs.
    Did you read my post? Pre-arabian beliefs where Verdic. I have recently read, thanks to someone from CU, where Mohammed's father and uncle where Verdic Priests. The Verdic belief system is one of the forms of Hinduism.

    http://members.fortunecity.com/sitaram/page123.htm

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  3. #23  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Yes I did and your sarcasm is not appreciated. I still think that the definition for honor killings has been intentionally redefined to exclude most everyone but muslims. It is a example of hate transforming culture and makes those who practice it not much different than the Mohammadans. You dispise the Muslims (I use you in a general way not you specifically) so you lay every negative practice at their feet, not much different than they do with Jews and Christians.
    I have no problem with muslims. My issues are with ISLAM. NOR do I think anyone is trying to lay everything negative at their feet - but rather people are pointing out what is already at their feet.

    NOW as for reading what Odysseus posted - did you catch this part?
    and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity.
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  4. #24  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    I have no problem with muslims. My issues are with ISLAM. NOR do I think anyone is trying to lay everything negative at their feet - but rather people are pointing out what is already at their feet.

    NOW as for reading what Odysseus posted - did you catch this part?
    and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity.
    Thus my comment that the definition of Honor Killings is being redefined to exclude non-Muslims.

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  5. #25  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Thus my comment that the definition of Honor Killings is being redefined to exclude non-Muslims.
    that doesn't fit though. He and I both have allowed for it to happen in other south asian cultures. so . . . .
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  6. #26  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    that doesn't fit though. He and I both have allowed for it to happen in other south asian cultures. so . . . .
    All I am saying is that this is not necessarily a Islamic thing. Some Hindu's practice this from of cultural cleansing and it has a longer historic tradition with them than with Islam. It seems that originally you did try to tie this strictly to Islamic practice and when I pointed out that it was cultural you stated that was because the cultures in question were Islamic. That doesn't seem to me as having allowed for it to happen in other South Asian cultures.

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  7. #27  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    All I am saying is that this is not necessarily a Islamic thing. Some Hindu's practice this from of cultural cleansing and it has a longer historic tradition with them than with Islam. It seems that originally you did try to tie this strictly to Islamic practice and when I pointed out that it was cultural you stated that was because the cultures in question were Islamic. That doesn't seem to me as having allowed for it to happen in other South Asian cultures.
    I have already allowed on this site for examples of hindu honour killings. But lets stick to the topic of the thread. Can you point to any examples outside of islam where women are being pressured by their families to kill themselves for the honor of the family? The only other cultures outside of Islam where this MIGHT be a problem would be the Japanese or Korean cultures if the families are particularly old school and suicide is considered honourable.
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  8. #28  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Then how do you account for the large number of hindu honor killings over dowries or that honor killings occur in areas with mixed religious affiliations? Also, honor killings have historically happened long before the invention of Islam.

    It seems the difinition of honor killings has been has been set up to exclude must other groups other than muslims. I personally use a broader difinition of honor killings.
    That you do. But honor killings have a specific definition, which is the murder to prevent or avenge the shame of a clan or family by the conduct, often sexual, of a family member, almost always female (although there are cases in which Sharia courts have authorized the rape of a female from another family in order to avenge dishonor caused by a male relative of that female). Honor killing predate Islam among the tribal groups that inhabited the region of the Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, but a major part of Islam is tied to Arab culture and society, honor killing has become part of Islamic tradition. The three codes by which Moslems conduct themselves are the Koran, which is the explicit revelation of Mohammed, the Hadith, which are stories from the life of Mohammed and his immediate followers, and the Sunnah, which are the practices and traditions of the Islamic people. The Koran does not explicitly state that women may be murdered for disobedience, but it does explicitly authorize capital punishment for adultery and fornication, and the Hadiths provide numerous examples of Mohammed ordering the execution of adulterers and fornicators. But, the Sunnah is where things become dicey, because that is where the tribal customs of Arabs become the tradition and practice of Islam, but even this understates the connection between Islam and honor killings, because if honor killing were solely cultural, then non-Moslem Arabs would also do it, but there is no documentation of Arab Christians, B'Hais or others indulging in it.

    As to the other question, which refers to dowry murders, that is indeed a cultural issue among Hindus, but while family honor is one consideration, it is primarily a financially motivated crime. Also, the honor killings that occur in areas of mixed religious affiliations do not occur among different religions in those areas. Texas is not an Islamic state, but a Moslem murdered his two daughters near Dallas. This doesn't make honor killings endemic to Texas. As I pointed out above, even in the Moslem world, one does not find non-Moslem Arabs committing honor killings. It is a uniquely Moslem phenomenon.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Thus my comment that the definition of Honor Killings is being redefined to exclude non-Muslims.
    No, it's the other way around. The definition of honor killings is dilluted in order to include other forms of domestic violence in order to create the impression that it is a unique practice among Moslems.
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  9. #29  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    I have already allowed on this site for examples of hindu honour killings. But lets stick to the topic of the thread. Can you point to any examples outside of islam where women are being pressured by their families to kill themselves for the honor of the family? The only other cultures outside of Islam where this MIGHT be a problem would be the Japanese or Korean cultures if the families are particularly old school and suicide is considered honourable.
    I can not, but the reason I can not is that Turkey is the only country that is seriously cracking down on honor killings enough for families to ask this of their daughters. If Inda was cracking down in this manner, I suspose there would be families there who would request their daughters to do this. However, since that is not the case and the government basically looks the other way, then they still will go on.

    My point through this whole debate has been that it is not just Muslims who have honor killings. I stated that they were cultural in nature and in this cause the culture calling for this action was mostly Muslim.

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  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    That you do. But honor killings have a specific definition, which is the murder to prevent or avenge the shame of a clan or family by the conduct, often sexual, of a family member, almost always female (although there are cases in which Sharia courts have authorized the rape of a female from another family in order to avenge dishonor caused by a male relative of that female). Honor killing predate Islam among the tribal groups that inhabited the region of the Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, but a major part of Islam is tied to Arab culture and society, honor killing has become part of Islamic tradition. The three codes by which Moslems conduct themselves are the Koran, which is the explicit revelation of Mohammed, the Hadith, which are stories from the life of Mohammed and his immediate followers, and the Sunnah, which are the practices and traditions of the Islamic people. The Koran does not explicitly state that women may be murdered for disobedience, but it does explicitly authorize capital punishment for adultery and fornication, and the Hadiths provide numerous examples of Mohammed ordering the execution of adulterers and fornicators. But, the Sunnah is where things become dicey, because that is where the tribal customs of Arabs become the tradition and practice of Islam, but even this understates the connection between Islam and honor killings, because if honor killing were solely cultural, then non-Moslem Arabs would also do it, but there is no documentation of Arab Christians, B'Hais or others indulging in it.
    I understand what you posted and I agree with much of it, but it is not just Muslims who practice honor killings. Setting the issue of inadequate dowries aside there are plenty of events like this:

    Nearly nine years after a young Sikh woman mysteriously disappeared while on a visit to India, her husband and mother-in-law were on Wednesday jailed for life for arranging her murder after it emerged that she was having an affair and wanted a divorce.

    The body of the victim, Surjit Athwal (27), a customs officer at Heathrow airport, was never found and the mystery of her disappearance might have remained had her mother-in-law Bachan Athwal not happened to boast to her family that she got her brother to strangle Surjit and throw her body into a river.
    From http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/20/stor...2055681600.htm

    In the above case the honor killing was performed by a Sikh family. The following is a link to an op-ed piece from The Telegraph of Calcutta noting that honor killings are still a problem in India.

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/104101...ry_3848937.asp

    In northern India honor killings are becoming epidemic among not only the Muslims but also the Hindus. In India strict adherence to that caste system is to blame for most of the honor killings. Marriage outside of the caste can and does earn both male and females death at the hands of offended relatives.

    There are less honor killings out side of the Muslim mindset, but I do believe that the concept of honor killings was imported from India into the Middle East by Verdic Hinduism that was the majority religion in the Arab states long before Islam arose.

    I am sorry to drag out this discussion like this, but I have learned a lot about the subject from you gentlement and it has forced me to do a bit of research on my own. I was hoping to get my new blog software configured and working today but this conversation has been much more enlightening.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
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