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  1. #21  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    This guy is no different than the guy who shot Dr. Tiller.
    Both were religious fanatics who thought they were doing what their god wanted them to do. Both were likely proud of their actions.

    I'll bet the killer of the soldier gets the death penalty.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    We do now:



    Any thoughts on the subject now?

    Very sad and tragic, just like Dr. Tiller's murder.

    Mentally unstable people should not have access to guns.

    We can all be more aware in our daily lives of individuals who are slipping away, getting depressed, expressing violent thoughts, etc.

    We are all in this together, right Odysseus?


    My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims' families.
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  3. #23  
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    There is one significant difference between this guy and the killer of Tiller.

    The media won't drag all muslim converts through the mud in association just cause this nut killed someone. They will associate all pro-lifers with the Tiller shooter. The media won't mention that SOME muslim mosques preach hate and violence but will cover the fact that SOME whack jobs in the anti-abortion movement preach violence.

    The difference is simple. The media.

    Same as how if the KKK had been standing in front of a voting place last election the media would be demanding a trial and imprisonment for voter intimidation. It would be front page and a constant drumbeat. But Black Panthers can do the same and it is ho hum that the .gov drops all charges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat-pattaya View Post
    There is one significant difference between this guy and the killer of Tiller.

    The media won't drag all muslim converts through the mud in association just cause this nut killed someone. They will associate all pro-lifers with the Tiller shooter. The media won't mention that SOME muslim mosques preach hate and violence but will cover the fact that SOME whack jobs in the anti-abortion movement preach violence.

    The difference is simple. The media.

    Same as how if the KKK had been standing in front of a voting place last election the media would be demanding a trial and imprisonment for voter intimidation. It would be front page and a constant drumbeat. But Black Panthers can do the same and it is ho hum that the .gov drops all charges.
    Perhaps, but I think you may be overlooking a few things.

    1) Dr. Tiller was a controversial figure. He was shot before and has been in the news.

    2) Some members of the pro-life movement can be polarizing in their attempts to further their cause.

    3) Abortion is a hot-button issue.

    5) This is coming on the heels of the Notre Dame graduation.

    4) While muslim extremism is of great concern to our national security, the recruiter shooting doesn't seem to involve a cell or even a person who was connected to some legitimate extremist group. Although he calls himself a muslim convert, do muslims extreme or otherwise, see him as such.

    IMO, Both events are tragic. And, all things being equal, they would get covered in an appropriate way.

    I saw almost an equal amount of coverage on Fox and CNN last night. MSNBC I don't watch, so I don't know. The bottom line is the Tiller shooting and the many characters and issues involved will hold an audiences attention longer. Cable news will always fill their 8-10 minute segments with stories covered from the angle that will hold their audience.

    A while back Sara Palin raised the issue of her coverage vs. Caroline Kennedy's coverage. I would say this to her. Governor Palin, you are much more interesting person. You're a more dynamic speaker and way better looking. TV is visual medium. You will get 3 times as much coverage as a Caroline Kennedy no matter what you're doing.
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japandroid View Post
    And the murder in Kentucky wasn't?
    You're only a few miles off, DUmmie.
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    This guy is no different than the guy who shot Dr. Tiller.
    Both were religious fanatics who thought they were doing what their god wanted them to do. Both were likely proud of their actions.

    I'll bet the killer of the soldier gets the death penalty.
    Maybe, but I doubt it.
    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Very sad and tragic, just like Dr. Tiller's murder.
    Mentally unstable people should not have access to guns.
    We can all be more aware in our daily lives of individuals who are slipping away, getting depressed, expressing violent thoughts, etc.
    Kind of missed the big picture, there, didn't you? It's not simply "sad and tragic," it's far more than that. It's part of a strategic situation that you don't really get.
    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    We are all in this together, right Odysseus?
    You tell me, media man.

    Two guys who wear the same uniform that I wear were targeted for murder because they belonged to the Army. If I'd been there, he'd have put me in his sights. Where's the breathless coverage of the murderer of a Soldier and the wounding of another? You know the name of the victim in the abortion doctor shooting, but do you know the names of the two victims in the recruiting center? Without googling, tell me. I'll bet that you don't.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  7. #27  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Perhaps, but I think you may be overlooking a few things.

    1) Dr. Tiller was a controversial figure. He was shot before and has been in the news.
    2) Some members of the pro-life movement can be polarizing in their attempts to further their cause.
    3) Abortion is a hot-button issue.
    5) This is coming on the heels of the Notre Dame graduation.
    4) While muslim extremism is of great concern to our national security, the recruiter shooting doesn't seem to involve a cell or even a person who was connected to some legitimate extremist group. Although he calls himself a muslim convert, do muslims extreme or otherwise, see him as such.
    IMO, Both events are tragic. And, all things being equal, they would get covered in an appropriate way.
    I saw almost an equal amount of coverage on Fox and CNN last night. MSNBC I don't watch, so I don't know. The bottom line is the Tiller shooting and the many characters and issues involved will hold an audiences attention longer. Cable news will always fill their 8-10 minute segments with stories covered from the angle that will hold their audience.
    A while back Sara Palin raised the issue of her coverage vs. Caroline Kennedy's coverage. I would say this to her. Governor Palin, you are much more interesting person. You're a more dynamic speaker and way better looking. TV is visual medium. You will get 3 times as much coverage as a Caroline Kennedy no matter what you're doing.
    Let's take a look at the things that you're overlooking, one at a time.
    1) Soldiers are supposedly not controversial figures. Our country is supposed to support us. Somehow, however, someone decided that membership in the armed forces makes us viable targets because they didn't like America or the Army. Again.
    2) Some members of the global jihad can be polarizing, too. But, how many abortion providers have been killed by pro-lifers compared with non-Muslims who have been killed by Muslims? There's an order of magnitude in difference.
    3) Global jihad is a hot button issue, especially if you have daughters and don't want them growing up in burkas.
    5) Normally, 4 comes after 5, but whatever you say, pal. If you want to make the assertion that the shooting of the doctor is somehow tied into the peaceful protests at Notre Dame, how about making the assertion that the shootings of the two Soldiers are tied into the war against Islamic terrorism and the anti-military statements made by the president when he was a candidate, the leadership of the congress and more celebrities than I could name?
    4) If he performs the five requirements of Islam, then, yes, he is a Muslim. As for his lack of affiliation with a cell, that makes him more dangerous, not less. Al Qaeda had to spend a fortune on the 9/11 highjackers, who required lodging, food, clothing, flight lessons, multiple flights (for the actual event and rehearsals) and other expenses for over a year. Even if a terror group has the money, the increased scrutiny of funds makes this riskier. How much better is it if the global jihad can recruit individuals who will act in support of jihad, within the strategic intent of the terrorist leaders, but who are self-sustaining and require no support? Once converted and radicalized, such a person makes a perfect delivery system for terror, and he doesn't even have to be activated, he just needs to be bombarded with information that appeals to his radicalized worldview.

    And, before you say that this is an isolated incident, it's not. Jihadis encourage lone wolf attacks. Islamist websites describe ways to conduct solo attacks and wax eloquent on the rewards awaiting the martyr. And it works. Here's a partial list of the more infamous acts (the ones that resulted in fatalities are in bold):

    • January 1990 – murder of an Egyptian Islamic freethinker in Tucson
    • November 1990 – assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane in New York
    • January 1993 – assault on CIA personnel, killing two, outside the agency’s Langley, Virginia, headquarters
    • March 1994 – shooting attack on a van full of Orthodox Jewish boys driving over the Brooklyn Bridge, killing one
    • February 1997 – murder of a Danish tourist at the top of the Empire State Building
    • October 1999 – crash of an EgyptAir flight by the Egyptian pilot into the Atlantic near New York City, killing 217
    • March 1994 — Rashid Baz, a Muslim from Lebanon, opened fire on a van containing members of the Lubavitch Hassids in Brooklyn. One was killed.
    • February 1997 — Palestinian-born Ali Abu Kamal opened fire on the observation deck of the Empire State Building, killing a tourist and injuring six other people before committing suicide. His daughter, Linda Kamal, said in 2007 that the family is tired of lying and admitted that a letter had been found on her father’s body explaining his Muslim hatred for Israel and America.
    • 1997 – Palestinian-born Gazi Ibrahim Abu Mezer, shot in the leg as he reached for a toggle switch on a pipe bomb. He was sentenced to life in prison after testifying he wanted to kill Jews riding the subway in Brooklyn.
    • July 2002 — Egyptian-born Hesham Mohammed Hadayet walked into the Israeli Airlines El Al terminal at the Los Angeles airport and began shooting Jews. He killed two and injured another four. He was known to sympathize with al Qaeda.
    • September 2002 — Patrick Gott killed one and wounded another in the New Orleans airport. He had entered the terminal with a shotgun and his Koran.
    • October 2002 — John Mohammed and Lee Malvo killed 13 people in the Washington, DC area. Both were converts to Islam and had attended a jihad training camp in southwestern Virginia.
    • March 2003 – US Army sergeant Hasan Karim Akbar, born Mark Fidel Kools, killed two officers of the 327th Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. “A Muslim should see himself as a Muslim only. His loyalty should be to Islam only.”
    • August 2003 — Mohammed Ali Alayed almost totally decapitated his erstwhile Jewish friend, Ariel Sellouk, following Alayed’s getting serious about his Islamic faith. He went to a mosque after killing Sellouk.
    • August 2003 – Maher Mofeid “Mike” Hawash, Palestinian born executive at Intel pleaded guilty to conspiring to help the Taliban. (from The Terrorist Next Door)
    • August 2004 – James Elshafay and Shawar Matin Siraj plan to bomb New York’s Herald Square subway station, near the site of the 2004 Republican National Convention
    • October 2005 — Joel Henry Hinrichs III, a convert to Islam, was an engineering student at Oklahoma University. His student career ended when a bomb he had strapped on himself went off prematurely outside a crowed stadium, killing only himself. Police subsequently cleared explosives from the apartment that Hinrichs had shared with Muslim students from Pakistan.
    • May 2006 — Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, a University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill student, rented an SUV and drove it through a crowded part of the campus — intentionally trying to hit people and wounding nine. In a series of letters to the student newspaper, he explained that he acted in obedience to Koranic dictates.
    • June 2006 — Michael Ford, a Muslim convert, walked into work at a Safeway warehouse in Denver and opened fire on his coworkers, killing one and injuring five. Relatives explained that he was being teased at work because he’s a Muslim and he could not take it anymore.
    • July 2006 — Naveed Alzal Haq, a Pakistani, walked into the Jewish Federation Center in downtown Seattle and shot six women — killing one and wounding five (one of whom was pregnant). He stated matter-of-factly: “I am a Muslim American angry at Israel.”
    • August 2006 — Omeed Aziz Popal, a Muslim Afghan refugee, used his SUV as a weapon and ran down at least 14 people and a bicyclist in the San Francisco Bay area. He was targeting Jewish neighborhoods to terrorize.
    • January 2007 — A 22-year-old Muslim, Ismail Yassin Mohamed, stole a car in Minneapolis and rammed it into other cars before stealing a van and doing the same, injuring several drivers and pedestrians before police finally caught up with him. Mohamed called himself a “terrorist.”
    • February 2007 — Ibrihim Ahmed, a Nashville cab driver and Muslim, was enraged that two passengers did not agree with him about Islam. When they got out of the cab, he tried to run them down, striking one in a parking lot.
    • February 2007 –Sulejman Talovic, a Bosnian Muslim immigrant, went to a Salt Lake City mosque on a Friday night. Then he went to one of only two malls in the state which prohibits civilian carrying of concealed weapons. He killed five before an off-duty cop (not subject to the ban) used a concealed firearm to stop his murder spree.
    • September 2007 – Dearborn resident Houssein Zorkot was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and dressed in black clothing with camouflage paint covering his face when he was arrested Saturday in Hemlock Park. Source: NTA
    • October 2007 – Wielding two butcher knives bought at Wal-Mart and vodka bottles to use as explosives, Tahmeed Ahmad chanted ”Death to America” and told Homestead Air Reserve Base guards he wanted to kill soldiers.
    • June 2009 – Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, born Carlos Bledsoe, shoots two U.S. soldiers, killing one, at an Arkansas military recruiting center
    The killing of Dr. Tiller is repugnant and evil, but the murder of PVT William Long and the wounding of PVT Quinton Ezeagwula are part of a far more serious and deadly trend. If our national media were more concerned with the substance of stories rather than the political horseraces that they're trying to fix, they'd report this in context.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  8. #28  
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    My soon to be out of business liberal rag for a newpaper Minneapolis Star Tribune yesterday had a large write up about the killer of the baby mangler. It told about how the guy was anti-tax first, then got into other anti-govrnment topics later. And despite my attempts, and I might have missed it, but I was not able to locate 1 single article about the soldiers that were killed. No wonder the paper is going under.
    Liberals are proof that evolution is only a theory. Nothing that stupid could evolve past a monkey.
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jediab View Post
    My soon to be out of business liberal rag for a newpaper Minneapolis Star Tribune yesterday had a large write up about the killer of the baby mangler. It told about how the guy was anti-tax first, then got into other anti-govrnment topics later. And despite my attempts, and I might have missed it, but I was not able to locate 1 single article about the soldiers that were killed. No wonder the paper is going under.
    There was a case a few years ago at McGuire AFB, which is co-located with FT Dix, in which a senior airman was shot and wounded by an antiwar moonbat. The story was covered by a number of online sources, but the NY Times ignored it.

    But, the critical issue here is not simply that the media is ignoring stories that are unflattering to its perceived allies, it's that they are actually ignoring a dangerous and growing trend of violence by Islamic converts and immigrants in the US, a trend that has serious security implications for the nation and impacts on all sorts of policy areas, from the penal system to immigration to public area security protocols. This is what terrorism looks like in Israel, where every Palestinian is suspect and the majority live in terror and have to take extreme measures to fight it. The time to fight terrorism isn't when it's a full-blown war, but when it's incubating, by restricting the flow of new, radicalized immigrants, cracking down on the mosques that are funded by extremist Wahabbi sects and create martyr wannabes and removing the Islamic conversion facilitation in prisons. Otherwise, this will continue to grow. In addition, we have to understand one important aspect of the jihadi mindset. They don't want to negotiate, assimilate or be welcomed by a diverse, inclusionary chorus of kumbaya-singing well-wishers. They want to kill or subjugate non-believers, and they see guys like this shooter as heroes. Ignoring them and explaining away their actions doesn't make them less violent, it makes them more violent, because it's the only way that they can be noticed. By treating this as just another piece of the partisan horse race, the media is guaranteeing that each subsequent terror act will be bigger and badder until someone racks up a body count that can't be excused or explained away. When that happens, the media, which claims to believe in free speech and expression, will have ensured the implementation of security measures that will make civil libertarians howl. By downplaying the acts and villifying those who want to take preventative measures and strangle this monster in its crib, the media's bias is guaranteeing that we will have to try to crack down on it when it's a full-grown coast to coast intifada from.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Let's take a look at the things that you're overlooking, one at a time.
    1) Soldiers are supposedly not controversial figures. Our country is supposed to support us. Somehow, however, someone decided that membership in the armed forces makes us viable targets because they didn't like America or the Army. Again.
    2) Some members of the global jihad can be polarizing, too. But, how many abortion providers have been killed by pro-lifers compared with non-Muslims who have been killed by Muslims? There's an order of magnitude in difference.
    3) Global jihad is a hot button issue, especially if you have daughters and don't want them growing up in burkas.
    5) Normally, 4 comes after 5, but whatever you say, pal. If you want to make the assertion that the shooting of the doctor is somehow tied into the peaceful protests at Notre Dame, how about making the assertion that the shootings of the two Soldiers are tied into the war against Islamic terrorism and the anti-military statements made by the president when he was a candidate, the leadership of the congress and more celebrities than I could name?
    4) If he performs the five requirements of Islam, then, yes, he is a Muslim. As for his lack of affiliation with a cell, that makes him more dangerous, not less. Al Qaeda had to spend a fortune on the 9/11 highjackers, who required lodging, food, clothing, flight lessons, multiple flights (for the actual event and rehearsals) and other expenses for over a year. Even if a terror group has the money, the increased scrutiny of funds makes this riskier. How much better is it if the global jihad can recruit individuals who will act in support of jihad, within the strategic intent of the terrorist leaders, but who are self-sustaining and require no support? Once converted and radicalized, such a person makes a perfect delivery system for terror, and he doesn't even have to be activated, he just needs to be bombarded with information that appeals to his radicalized worldview.

    And, before you say that this is an isolated incident, it's not. Jihadis encourage lone wolf attacks. Islamist websites describe ways to conduct solo attacks and wax eloquent on the rewards awaiting the martyr. And it works. Here's a partial list of the more infamous acts (the ones that resulted in fatalities are in bold):



    The killing of Dr. Tiller is repugnant and evil, but the murder of PVT William Long and the wounding of PVT Quinton Ezeagwula are part of a far more serious and deadly trend. If our national media were more concerned with the substance of stories rather than the political horseraces that they're trying to fix, they'd report this in context.
    Since you and I have discussed this, I have seen/heard more coverage of this story then that of Tiller's shooting. They (CNN, Fox) are also covering it from the angle you mentioned in the PM--looking at the shooting in terms of the larger picture.

    Regarding what you said about complacency, that may be true with Obama, but I believe the FBI field agents to be hard-working bright people dedicated to keeping us safe. This one slipped through, no details yet on how many red flags had gone up, but I have faith in the folks working in Federal law enforcement.
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