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  1. #11  
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    No real argument? Are you kidding? I'm no Pelosi fan, but if the far future history books decide Mr. Bush got it even half right during his 8 years, I'll wonder how many books got burned. There's too many things to get into right this minute, and that's not even really the point I'm trying to make here. Regardless of argumentation or lack thereof, you do not call ANY President a treasonous scumbag, much less a teleprompter. And calling Obama socialist? Puhleeze. Or did you forget that Bush was the man in charge when everything started going downhill? And that his Administration released the first round of funds for GM and Chevrolet?
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  2. #12  
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    But my friend you have it all wrong. Congress controls the purse strings and Obama voted for all of it. So for anybody to say it is all Bush's fault has got it completely wrong. If I recall correctly, Bush did not want give any money to the automakers. Right?
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  3. #13  
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    BTW, not saying I agree even with the initial TARP funds because I sure as hell didn't. I think Bush's foreign policy was right on, it was his domestic policy I took umbrage with.
    Last edited by Jfor; 06-05-2009 at 01:26 AM.
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  4. #14  
    An Adversary of Linda #'s
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinker View Post




    There, a little more gloom and doom for those so minded.

    Sheesh, you'd think this place was DU circa 2002.
    Do you have a 'Little Ray of Sunshine " to share with us ?If this were 'W' you would be among the first to break into screaming about what he was up to !
    Last edited by megimoo; 06-05-2009 at 01:25 PM.
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfor View Post
    Care to say why you think he is not?

    Hmm. Let's start with the definition of the word "treason", from Websters:

    1 : the betrayal of a trust : treachery
    2 : the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family
    1. No one who's insulting him by using such terms would ever stoop (in their minds, at least) to voting for him. Since there never was a trust between the President and people who didn't vote for him (nevermind the fact that plenty of people hated him from the word go, for reasons that are beyond base) it's kind of hard to betray a trust that was never there.

    2. In order for Obama to overthrow the government (seeing as how he constitutes effectively 1/3 of it) he'd have to radically alter the fabric of our system of governance. Last I checked, Congress and the SCOTUS is still in operation, so we haven't lost the check and balance system. If you're arguing that he's attempting to socialize America, a few things:

    A. If you even attempt to argue that he's changing our wonderful free market capitalist society into a command & control economy, remember first that the original round of Federal money was released, not by Obama, but by the Bush Administration. (Ready to call him a socialist scumbag traitor? Thought not.) Second, in order for Obama to socialize the economy into said command and control structure, companies would have to start being nationalized.

    a. Using the term "nationalize" to describe the actions that have been taking in concert between the FDIC, the Treasury, the Federal Reserve, and the Federal government at large is not only incorrect, it's nothing more than a very poor anti-dialogue tactic. To "nationalize" a company, that company would have to be a company that wasn't beholden to shareholders other than the government - which is not the case with any bank, insurance company, or automaker currently receiving taxpayer funds. All of them are still publicly traded, and have their own boards. Yes, people have been replaced at the government's behest, but as a taxpayer, I sure as all hell did not want the same idiots running GM and Chevrolet that have been doing so for the last two decades, while the tanks got fatter and the engines got thirstier. That wasn't just a smart move, it should have happened to every CEO at every company that was forced to either take TARP money or go under.

    Or do you defend the right of corporate america to run their companies into the ground at the expense of you and me?

    You'd prefer, perhaps, that no one ever got any federal assistance. Sorry, I thought that you were in favor of capitalism - which doesn't work without banks, remember? And no, it wouldn't be any sort of clean, smooth, all the bad banks go away and good new ones magically appear. Circa January of this year, if every bank that made it on the take went down, we'd be in a DE-pression right now, not a recession.

    b. Since we've discussed that board changes and stakes in companies are not, by definition, robust enough to be called "nationalization", let's move on to the other reasons why "nationalization" hasn't happened yet.

    b.1 Typically, nationalized companies receive clear, direct benefits from the government in nonmonetary terms. Take, for example, the preferential treatment Airbus gets from France to have exclusive contracts on French executive jets, military assets, etc. Or Volkswagon's continued protectionist sentiment from Germany. Contrast that to the fact that when the new car tax credit was announced, it meant the EXACT same to buy a new Toyota as compared to one from the Big 3. If GM or Chevrolet were truly "nationalized", then that credit would have been to buy a Chevy or GM, not just any new car.

    b.2 If these companies are "nationalized", then why are the first round of TARP recipients now moving to begin repaying some or all of the funds?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv...5526T720090603

    c. If you'd like to bring up Fanny and Freddy at this point, don't make me laugh. (Unless, of course, you're willing to paint Reagan and Bush 1 & 2 with the same socialist brush?)

    3. If you're arguing he's a socialist on the basis of his planned legislative agenda, let's be clear: Universal Healthcare is as socialist as Social Security. Any tax bill will not only have to make it through Congress, it will be the thing the Democratic Party as a whole will be least united on, because of the electoral ramifications. You cannot judge the man before he acts, and until I see a tax bill that takes 60% of the income of people earning 200,000 a year or more, it's STILL not socialist, unless you're in favor of viewing democracies like Britain, Canada, and France (yes, France, please, go for the low French blow, it's STILL a democracy, mate) as socialist states. The energy bill is so 21st century you'd have a hard time tagging any version of it as "socialist".

    Finally, you disagreeing with him doesn't make him a socialist. Me disagreeing with Bush didn't make him a fascist, or a warmonger, or anything else. It just made me disagree with him.
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  6. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    Do you have a 'Little Ray of Sunshine " to share with us ?It this were 'W' you would be among the first to break into screaming about what he was up to !
    Actually, no I wouldn't. I'd probably shake my head a time or three, but anyone who knows me can confirm that I was neither for Mr. Bush nor against him in any great margin. He made mistakes and he did a few things right.

    And ffs, turn down your volume. You're way too shrill.
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfor View Post
    But my friend you have it all wrong. Congress controls the purse strings and Obama voted for all of it. So for anybody to say it is all Bush's fault has got it completely wrong. If I recall correctly, Bush did not want give any money to the automakers. Right?
    First of all, I'm not saying it's all Bush's fault. He had his part to play, certainly. And, factcheck time:

    http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...pproves_a.html

    That was way back in september of 08, long before the election was over. So no, wrong. He said he was against it a time or two, but actions always spoke far louder than words in Mr. Bush's Whitehouse.

    By "Obama voted for all of it", clarify. Do you mean the economic stimulus bills, or...? Because the economic situation we find ourselves in did not grow up yesterday, or last month, or even last year. It started long before Obama even became a senator - and no, I'm not talking about the Iraq war.
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  8. #18  
    An Adversary of Linda #'s
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinker View Post
    It's uncalled for to point out that there's absolutely no willingness in the posts I've seen so far to grant him any room, whatsoever? One of my most vivid lessons from this very board as a high schooler was that the President deserves a measure of respect. It's one of the reasons I came back, repeatedly - because this place has/had standards. I was like my friends - I had no problems referring to Mr. Bush in many rather reprehensible ways (now that I look back on it). But after being smacked around by some rather lovely people (gator, hint, this is you) who made it quite clear that if I wanted to stay and have a say around here that there are just some things you don't do - calling the President the Teleprompter of the United States (or something similar that I won't repeat here) is one of 'em. And yes, that is the EXACT thing DU used to do to President Bush. I dare you to say otherwise, because I used to watch that trainwreck in motion just like everyone else.

    You may not have voted for him, meg, but he IS your President, and deserves that acknowledgement.
    He is and I promise you that I will treat him with the same degree of respect and honor that the POTUS deserves to the same degree that you libbers showed 'W' ! That leaves me with lots and lot of room to bitch and moan doesn't it ?

    You don't need much in your skull to figure out what Obama's up to don't you think ? Every presidential finding, every directive, every appointment Bush made will be changed .

    The war on terror,Gitmo,The Iraqi withdrawal ,ABM system,Support for our allies and finally complete isolation of Israel and kissing up to every Muslim in America and the world .All I need to know about Islam I learned after 911 !

    For his next move he start to take apart the Navy Carrier battle groups leave us unable to protect our allies .

    His and the ultra Liberal/progressive Congress have been very busy destroying the American economy and leaving our economic future and recovery in very grave doubt.
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  9. #19  
    An Adversary of Linda #'s
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinker View Post
    Actually, no I wouldn't. I'd probably shake my head a time or three, but anyone who knows me can confirm that I was neither for Mr. Bush nor against him in any great margin. He made mistakes and he did a few things right.

    And ffs, turn down your volume. You're way too shrill.
    Block your ears if you find me shrill or you could go back to the DUmp if they will have you back !
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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    He is and I promise you that I will treat him with the same degree of respect and honor that the POTUS deserves to the same degree that you libbers showed 'W' ! That leaves me with lots and lot of room to bitch and moan doesn't it ?
    Get one thing, and one thing only, straight. Right now. I AM NOT A LIBERAL, AND THAT PANSY A** BULLCRAP THAT SOMEONE ELSE DID IT, SO IT MUST BE OKAY FOR ME TOO DOES NOT FLY.

    I will list out where I stand for you on all the major positions if I have to. But don't try to lump me in with that bunch of craptastic lettuce eaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo
    You don't need much in your skull to figure out what Obama's up to don't you think ? Every presidential finding, every directive, every appointment Bush made will be changed .
    There's a couple of things to clear up with this. One, didn't Bush change everything Slick Willy ever did? Answer: yes. That's politics, not evil-overthrow-the-government agendas. Two, Bush screwed up plenty. At least some of those changes *will* be good things, whether you can admit that or not. Or are you another one of those wonderful people who think that we can keep driving 15 mpg SUVs and the world will never change?

    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo
    The war on terror,Gitmo,The Iraqi withdrawal ,ABM system,Support for our allies and finally complete isolation of Israel and kissing up to every Muslim in America and the world .All I need to know about Islam I learned after 911 !
    Oh em Gee, Armageddon!1111!!!11eleventyone! Quit acting like the sky is falling - and if you truly believe in a conservative viewpoint, now's the time. Be rational, be reasonable, and show why what he's doing is wrong, without spouting crap like all Islam is evil. The echo chamber is to your left. If freep is still around, there's another one to your far right. Unless CU has warped out of all recognition since I've been gone (God, I hope it hasn't), this is NOT the echo chamber. If you don't like your viewpoints challenged, don't post.

    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo
    For his next move he start to take apart the Navy Carrier battle groups leave us unable to protect our allies .
    Make a thread on that Saturday. We'll discuss, if you're game.

    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo
    His and the ultra Liberal/progressive Congress have been very busy destroying the American economy and leaving our economic future and recovery in very grave doubt.
    Yea, because deregulation of the financial commodities markets had NOTHING to do with that
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