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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinker View Post
    I'm not trying to appease people who hate Israel. I'm trying to come to grips with the fact that the more I watch the recent (past 30 years) historical arc of Israel's actions, the more I see a very brutal, very ethically bankrupt and very well funded xenophobic leadership destroying any chance for a just, peaceful Israeli state.

    Putting the Liberty to bed in an honorable and honest way would be a step in the other (and right) direction.
    Since one side is hell bent on wiping the other off the face of the globe, you will not see peace in the M.E. There is just too much hatred there. Looks like Obama is going to follow in Carter's footsteps and lick the boots of our enemy.

    What other steps could be taken if Israel apologizes and pays restitution. We both know that it will not happen so I do not know what good it does to keep beating a dead horse. Some things you can not change as much as you would like them to. It is called reality.
     

  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    So what is the correct response? Hate Israel for the net 40 years. Or demand the government bring it back up again? Or Write it off as a mistake of war far in our past?
    Is there a statute of limitations on the murder of US servicemen or American citizens? If so then all Bin Laden has to do is hang out in his cave for a little while longer, right?

    To answer your question; how about incorporating the suggesstions of the Moorer Independent Commission?

    What is wrong with honoring the men of the Liberty, who gave their lives for their country, and with doing a real investigation by Congress to find out the truth of the attack and the cover up?

    The pro Israel supporters hate the suggestions of the Commission because they are afraid the people of the US will wake up to the fact that Israel is not our friend and never will be.



    Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry
    into the Israeli Attack on USS Liberty,
    the Recall of Military Rescue Support Aircraft
    while the Ship was Under Attack, and the
    Subsequent Cover-up by the United States Government


    CAPITOL HILL, WASHINGTON, D.C.
    OCTOBER 22, 2003

    ADMIRAL THOMAS H. MOORER, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
    FORMER CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

    GENERAL RAYMOND G. DAVIS, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, (MOH)*
    FORMER ASSISTANT COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS

    REAR ADMIRAL MERLIN STARING, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
    FORMER JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL OF THE NAVY HH

    AMBASSADOR JAMES AKINS, (RET.)
    FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA


    Chief Attorney of the 1967 Court of Inquiry
    Captain Boston's Affidavit
    Commonly Asked Questions about USS Liberty
    Who are the Commissioners of this Independent Investigation?
    We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel�s attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **

    1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world�s most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 172 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

    2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

    3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty�s firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty�s life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

    4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel�s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

    5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

    6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

    7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship�s Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with �court-martial, imprisonment or worse� if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

    8. That due to the influence of Israel�s powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

    9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

    10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy�s 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

    11. That the truth about Israel�s attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

    12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel�s interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

    WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

    FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel�s possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

    SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

    THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as

    USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty�s heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

    We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

    Thomas H. Moorer
    Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff


    General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH*


    Merlin Staring
    Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
    Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,


    James Akins
    Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
    Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia,


    *IN MEMORIAM: General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, one of America�s most decorated military heroes (including the Congressional Medal of Honor), Vice Chairman of this panel and one of the principal members of this Independent Commission of Inquiry, passed away in Conyers, Georgia, on September 3, 2003.
    Last edited by gator; 06-17-2009 at 09:33 AM.
     

  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by lacarnut View Post

    What other steps could be taken if Israel apologizes and pays restitution.
    We could do the right thing and hold Israel accountable for their crimes, couldn't we?

    Isn't that what you do to terrorist or do we just give the Israelis a pass?

    You do you know that the crewmembers of the USS Liberty are calling for a war crimes investigation against the Isrealis don't you?

    We know the Israelis don't believe in a statue of limitations on war crimes so why should the US? We also know that the Israelis will hold people accountable for war crimes, many years later so why shouldn't we do the same thing?



    USS Liberty Veterans
    Association Announces
    War Crime Charges
    Filed Against Israel
    USSLiberty.org
    6-6-5

    (Washington, DC) -- On Friday, June 10 at 1:00 pm, Hotel Washington, 515 15th St NW, in the Washington Room 11th floor (hit R for roof in elevator), Moe Shafer, board member of the USS Liberty Veterans Association and Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret., Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy who was involved with the initial Court of Inquiry investigating the attack in 1967 will present details of the Report of War Crimes brief filed on behalf of the USS Liberty Veterans Association concerning the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.

    The Report was filed with by James R. Gotcher, General Legal Counsel, USS - LVA, with the Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon on June 8, the 38th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty.


    By establishing prima facie evidence that Israel committed war crimes the Secretary of Defense under existing Dept. Of Defense directives is obligated to initiate an inquiry into the commission of war crimes, an investigation that should have been carried out 38 years ago.
    Last edited by gator; 06-17-2009 at 09:34 AM.
     

  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    If gator was sitting in front of the tv right now watching the people of Israel being slaghtered it would not satisfy his hate for them he would just sit their empty. That is what the unwillingess to forgive does to you it just leaves you empty and alone.
    I've never seen Gator indicate hatred for the people of Israel. I have seen him show disgust for their governing bodies, and ours, in terms of our policies with them.
     

  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillygirl View Post
    I've never seen Gator indicate hatred for the people of Israel. I have seen him show disgust for their governing bodies, and ours, in terms of our policies with them.
    It would be kinda hard to wipe Israel off the face of the earth without killing all the people living there. Correct. He has advocated that on several occasions along with using terminology like filthy Jew's.
     

  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by lacarnut View Post
    It would be kinda hard to wipe Israel off the face of the earth without killing all the people living there. Correct. He has advocated that on several occasions along with using terminology like filthy Jew's.
    I haven't seen him advocate wiping Israel off the face of the earth. I have seen him advocate that the U.S. should stop giving them the aid that we are giving them. Some would then posit that that would result in Israel being wiped off the face of the earth and thereby attribute to him that desire.

    As for the filthy Jews comment, I have missed that, but I'm sure you have a link to it.
     

  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillygirl View Post
    I haven't seen him advocate wiping Israel off the face of the earth. I have seen him advocate that the U.S. should stop giving them the aid that we are giving them. Some would then posit that that would result in Israel being wiped off the face of the earth and thereby attribute to him that desire.

    As for the filthy Jews comment, I have missed that, but I'm sure you have a link to it.
    I have only said that I have respect for Jews. As a Christian I consider myself a spiritual Jew.

    I have called the Israelis filthy and will continue to do so. Any country that attacks my country is filthy as far as I am concerned.

    It is amazing that a discussion on the USS Liberty always ends up in a discussion on anti Semitism. That is what the pro Israelis supporters have to use because they cannot explain or justify the attack on the Liberty. They then play the old racial hatred card.

    The crewmembers of the USS Liberty were called anti Semites when they first started to speak out against the attack and the cover up.

    Here is an article by the VFW talking about the accusations. It is amazing that American veterans are accused of that bullshit just because they want justice from Israel. That shows the lows the pro Israel supporters will stoop to in order to protect their beloved Israel.



    http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=news...dtl=3&mid=2639



    Mission Memorial: Remembering the USS Liberty

    For the veterans of the USS Liberty, commemorating their fellow crew members killed in action became an all-consuming passion.

    By Susan Katz Keating

    On June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty was under way about 25 miles off the Gaza coast, in international waters. An old freighter-turned-intelligence ship, the Liberty clearly flew its U.S. flag while monitoring developments in the Arab-Israeli, or Six-Day, War.

    At about 8 a.m., Liberty crewmen waved jaunty greetings to low-flying Israeli reconnaissance planes. Six hours later, the friendly greetings turned to frantic shouts, as Israeli fighter-bombers and torpedo boats strove mercilessly to sink the unarmed ship.

    By the time the assault was over, 34 crewmen were dead. Another 171--including the ship's captain--lay wounded.

    Afterward, Israel said it had mistaken the Liberty for an Egyptian warship. The surviving Liberty crewmen--and a number of U.S. government officials--believed the attack was deliberate. And yet, the issue seemed to evaporate from public consciousness. Almost as soon as it happened, the Liberty incident was cast aside--by all but the crewmen.

    Remember the Liberty

    In the years since the attack, Liberty survivors have steadfastly worked to create more than 30 memorials to their fallen crewmen. The memorials have taken the form of golf course tee boxes, street names, military barracks, a medical clinic and even a library. In the process, the veterans have encountered both effusive support and intense opposition. Throughout, the goal has remained unchanged: Remember the Liberty.

    "The survivors still don't have all the answers to what happened," says Mike Pierson, commander of VFW Post 3699 in Indio, Calif. "But they understand each other and their purpose in dedicating these memorials."

    Pierson, who did not serve onboard the ship, worked closely with Liberty survivor Don Pageler to dedicate a tree to the USS Liberty crew and Capt. William McGonagle.

    As an outsider, Pierson saw not only Pageler's determination to memorialize the crew, but also learned much about the Liberty veterans and their ongoing quest. "They stayed loyal to each other, and to the men who died on the Liberty," he says. "They devoted themselves to setting up these memorials. It's been like a mission."

    Going on the Offensive

    The mission took shape in 1982, when survivors held their first reunion and formed the Liberty Veterans Association. Among other things, the group decided that they would memorialize the ship and her fallen crew.

    One by one, the veterans took action.

    Ron Kukal, who was perilously close to the point of impact when an Israeli torpedo hit the Liberty, began writing to various states and cities, requesting official proclamations honoring the
    Liberty.

    Bob Casale, who served on the Liberty but was not onboard during the attack, set up a commemorative display inside his business--Liberty Plumbing and Heating Supply--in Hicksville, N.Y.

    Former ship's boilerman John Hrankowski persuaded reluctant officials in Poughkeepsie, N.Y., to include a shipmate's name on a local war memorial.

    Jim Ennes, who was an electronic materiel officer aboard the Liberty, took on Arlington National Cemetery. Ennes, the author of Assault on the Liberty, was incensed to discover that a six-man grave for Liberty dead at Arlington contained the inscription, "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean."

    The inscription implied that the men were killed "in a whorehouse fire or a taxicab accident in Beirut," Ennes says. He embarked on a campaign to change the inscription to read, "Killed - USS Liberty."

    "That grave was soon regarded as a memorial and was visited by the crew at each reunion," Ennes says. "Things went on from there."

    However, the pursuit of remembrance has not entirely been smooth sailing.

    Battle of Grafton

    In 1987, the village of Grafton, Wis., decided to build a new library using only donated funds. Two brothers, Ben and Ed Grob, contributed $400,000. This entitled them to pick the library's name.

    The elderly duo had read Ennes' book and were moved to honor the ship. They asked to name the new structure the USS Liberty Memorial Library.

    "I was so choked up I couldn't talk," says former Grafton village president Jim Grant, a Navy veteran who knew the USS Liberty story. "I thought it was a beautiful and fitting tribute."

    Grant also thought that the proposed name would not present a problem. "Well ... surprise, surprise," Grant says. "The opposition was overwhelming."

    Angry outsiders falsely accused the townspeople of anti-Semitism.

    "That was the disorienting part," says villager John Dickmann, who was involved in fund-raising for the library. "They tried to make it seem as if we were against the entire state of Israel because we planned to name our library after the Liberty."

    "It had nothing to do with the state of Israel," Grant says. "This was a memorial to American servicemen."

    The controversy dragged on for two years, during which time the Milwaukee Journal led the opposition. Protesters came in via bus from Milwaukee to disrupt the groundbreaking. Hecklers attended the dedication. Police were on hand to provide protection. But the library went up as planned and has not been the focus of further controversy.

    'An Inspiration'
    Elsewhere, memorials rejected by one locale enthusiastically were adopted by another.
    A city in Michigan turned down the offer of a memorial stone listing crewmembers' names. Instead, because of the efforts of curator Stan Bozich, Michigan's Own Military and Space Museum in Frankenmuth welcomed the stone.

    The U.S. Navy actually rejected an offer to house the USS Liberty's flag. The battle-worn colors found a home at the National Security Agency's National Cryptologic Museum at Ft. George Meade, Md., where it was made part of a display honoring the former spy ship.

    "The Liberty exhibit has been one of our most popular displays," says recently retired museum curator Jack Ingram. "People tend to really look at it."

    In Zimmerman, Minn., citizens eagerly chipped in to build a memorial and picnic area dedicated to the Liberty; American Legion Post 560 raised $12,000 toward the project. At Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas, the USS Liberty's original commissioning plaque was made part of a park display.

    Next on the agenda: placing a plaque in the home state of every Liberty crewman killed in the attack. Gary Brummett and other members of the Liberty Veterans Association board are spearheading the effort.

    "Their loyalty is unwavering," the VFW's Pierson marvels. "It's an inspiration to us all."
    Editor's Note: At least nine Liberty vets are VFW members, including Mark Kram, who is commander of Post 7464 in Grasonville, Md. This article would not have been possible without the special efforts of Ron Kukal and Don Pageler.
     

  8. #28  
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    Here is another article written by a Jewish Rabbi condemning the hatred against the people that want justice for the crewmembers:
    http://hnn.us/articles/194.html

    USS Liberty: False Allegations of Anti-Semitism
    By Yomin Postelnik
    Mr. Postelnik studied in rabbinical seminaries in Florida as well as in Canada. He has also taught at similar seminaries. He is currently in Ontario, Canada where he is starting a small monthly dedicated to conservative world politics and gives regular classes to adults in Jewish philosophy.

    I am writing this piece, myself being a religious Jew (with rabbinical ordination) and one who is very troubled not only by Israel’s attack of an American ship but also by the cover-up that ensued and the false accusations hurled at those who only want the truth to be known. Survivors of the attack have been slandered as being anti-semitic when this is not at all the case. I have seen this slander repeated in many a book review or article dealing with the Liberty. Some slander has also come from the Anti-Defamation League. This group in particular has been known to suppress any thought contrary to its agenda of the day. As a result it has become the scorn of many Jews. In this case the ADL repeatedly sought to block coverage of the Liberty incident and even raised objections to memorials in honor of the victims. The Wisconsin Jewish Chronicle, June 21, 1991, quotes one Howard Rosenburg as follows:

    "The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith (ADL) has questioned the motivation behind a June 8 White House ceremony honoring surviving crew members of the USS Liberty, a naval intelligence ship bombed by Israel aircraft during the 1967 Six Day War. Thirty-four American seamen died in the episode.... ADL hopes that the reason for the White House reception was simply to honor the Liberty members, not to give a stamp of approval to those seeking to malign Israel."

    As for the charge of anti-semitism, the fact is that retired Naval Officer Jim Ennes (himself a survivor of the attack and one who has faced some of the worst accusations as a result of his extensive work to uncover the truth surrounding it) was himself director of a local board against racism. Some "anti-semite"! I have been in contact with him as well as with many of the other survivors. They do not blame "Jews.," They know the attack had been deliberate on the part of Israel and this is where they lay the blame.

    Let us examine what happened on that day, June 8, 1967. Throughout that entire morning Israeli planes continuously flew past the USS Liberty. As they passed by they would wave to the ship’s crew, the waves being reciprocated by those on deck. Both parties had recognized each other. Granted these were not the same planes as those which would later bomb the ship, but herein lies just one proof that the ship had been easily recognisable as an American vessel.

    Early that fateful afternoon, about 1500 Liberty time, the first bombers flew above the ship. After the initial bombing Israeli torpedoes attacked from the sea. As the entire crew tried to man lifeboats in order to escape, the Israeli planes shot bullets upon them as they were escaping. The ship was also completely covered in napalm. The ship was easily identifiable as being an American vessel. Besides the fact that every Israeli plane that had flown above the ship that very day had easily recognized it as an American vessel, the Liberty flew a huge US flag on its deck that was impossible to miss. Furthermore, the Israelis claimed that no US markings were visible. This statement of theirs proves without a doubt that there was a cover-up. Many top officials have come forward. Admiral Thomas Moorer, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staffs, has called the cover-up a preposterous lie and has tried to expose the attack for what it was. Secretary of State Dean Rusk also clearly stated that the attack was deliberate as did Clark Clifford, Counsel to LBJ and himself a staunch supporter of Israel.

    Anyone who takes the time to investigate the attack quickly realizes that it was one launched deliberately. Yet the innocent Liberty men are repeatedly slandered and those who seek justice are accused of anti-semitism. Many Jews have come forward to challenge these ridiculous assertions but still not enough. Judaism demands loyalty to one’s country, not to a state of Jews half a world away. It is true that Jews have always defended each other, but only when the other is right and the case is just. Judaism does not support brutality and it is high time for American Jews to support the cause of these innocent men and to battle the constant slander they have now faced for decades.

    It is also high time for Israel to admit what transpired and to come forth with the reason for the attack. There is absolutely no doubt that it was a purposeful one despite the amount of protest to the contrary. For those who still question the validity of this argument, they must make it their business to read up on the attack and the circumstances surrounding it. I have and therefore I see that there is no question, the attack was launched purposefully.

    No one deserves to be labelled an anti-semite. Men who have served America well and who were brutally attacked as a result should definitely never have to face such slander. They served America and it is high time America stands with them and demands justice. They have suffered for years as a result of slander, as a result of being told to keep quiet and because Congress has to this day refused to investigate the issue. I sincerely hope that other Jews demand a congressional inquiry into the attack and that this inquiry will finally bring forth the truth that noble men who served nobly have waited for, for so long now. Our prayers must be with them and through our actions we must help them by demanding such an inquiry.
    Last edited by gator; 06-17-2009 at 12:23 PM.
     

  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by gator View Post
    I have only said that I have respect for Jews. As a Christian I consider myself a spiritual Jew.

    I have called the Israelis filthy and will continue to do so. Any country that attacks my country is filthy as far as I am concerned.

    It is amazing that a discussion on the USS Liberty always ends up in a discussion on anti Semitism
    . That is what the pro Israelis supporters have to use because they cannot explain or justify the attack on the Liberty. They then play the old racial hatred card.

    The crewmembers of the USS Liberty were called anti Semites when they first started to speak out against the attack and the cover up.

    Yes. Sometimes it feels like DU around here.
     

  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by gator View Post
    It is amazing that a discussion involving Gator always ends up in a discussion on anti Semitism. That is what the pro Israelis supporters have to use because they cannot explain or justify the attack on the Liberty. They then play the old racial hatred card.
    Fixed.:D
    I feel that once a black fella has referred to white foks as "honky paleface devil white-trash cracker redneck Caspers," he's abdicated the right to get upset about the "N" word. But that's just me. -- Jim Goad
     

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