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  1. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teetop View Post
    I will post #29 again, for the dense as depleted uranium crowd;
    Actually, I responded to your daft statement that Al Gore and scientists just don't get the fact that the Earth goes through climate cycles.... apparently this fact simply escaped scientists all these years... but thankfully you were clever enough to pick up on it! Sadly though, support for such a statement was not included in your article... (it had nothing to do with your article, actually).

    But here I was thinking that scientists actually know a little something about global climate cycles... and that knowledge of those cycles was, in part, the reason that they could recognize unusual anomalies in those cycles.. and perhaps they could even try to formulate theories to explain the causes of those anomalies! That would be pretty amazing!

    We should tell those scientists (and Al Gore) about these climate cycles! I bet that would change everything!
    Last edited by wilbur; 06-22-2009 at 09:17 PM.
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  2. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Actually, I responded to your daft statement that Al Gore and scientists just don't get the fact that the Earth goes through climate cycles.... apparently this fact simply escaped scientists all these years... but thankfully you were clever enough to pick up on it! Sadly though, support for such a statement was not included in your article... (it had nothing to do with your article, actually).

    But here I was thinking that scientists actually know a little something about global climate cycles... and that knowledge of those cycles was, in part, the reason that they could recognize unusual anomalies in those cycles.. and perhaps they could even try to formulate theories to explain the causes of those anomalies! That would be pretty amazing!

    We should tell those scientists (and Al Gore) about these climate cycles! I bet that would change everything!
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  3. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Actually, I responded to your daft statement that Al Gore and scientists just don't get the fact that the Earth goes through climate cycles.... apparently this fact simply escaped scientists all these years... but thankfully you were clever enough to pick up on it! Sadly though, support for such a statement was not included in your article... (it had nothing to do with your article, actually).

    But here I was thinking that scientists actually know a little something about global climate cycles... and that knowledge of those cycles was, in part, the reason that they could recognize unusual anomalies in those cycles.. and perhaps they could even try to formulate theories to explain the causes of those anomalies! That would be pretty amazing!

    We should tell those scientists (and Al Gore) about these climate cycles! I bet that would change everything!
    Maybe, just maybe..... if Al Whore and his ilk would quit pushing this scam on people, the worrld could get to more pressing issues?

    There is no such thing as "man-made global warming/cooling".

    End of story.
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  4. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Click on the 'Home' button for your page, read the petition.

    Now click on the wiki article about the Oregon Petition. Read the text of the Oregon Petition. Fred Seitz, Oregon Institute... Google 'Oregon Petition' if you don't believe me. You're site comes up 4th, right above the Sourcewatch article which you should read if you want more info.

    After being vetted, Seitz probably changed the name--or moved the site. It's always been known as the Oregon Petition--which was preceded by the Liepzig Declaration.
    I'm willing to look into if it's a scam or not. So far, I don't see any evidence that it's illegitimate. "Probably" changing the name and being similar isn't much to go on for disregarding it IMO. But I'm not closed to the possibility that it's a farce. It doesn't seem too likely.

    The real farce is when the federal government tries to sell bills like HR 146 as "conservation", when in reality it's simply a federal land grab of about 2 mill acres. They use the U.N. Agenda 21 garbage to implement these laws on American citizens in the name of global security.

    Or when people like David De Rothschild are treated as "experts" and get to preach to me about nature and conservation on Eco Trip..... and propaganda TV such as the Sundance channel that pushes this B.S as if there's no debate.

    I have never heard much of a convincing arguement that GCC is man made. There is too little research into plausible causes such as solar cycles....and too much emphasis on 20th century warming trends and CO2 levels.
    Hint: CO2 is good...without it plants die.

    One of the best quotes I've read recently came from a Japanese study that compared the modern day computer climate modeling to a new form of ancient astrology. That about sums it up for me.

    Here's some more resources for you guys that think the GCC is on the up and up.

    The Great Global Warming Swindle
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arming+Swindle

    CBC Global Warming Doomsday Called Off
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...10462407994295

    http://www.icecap.us/

    http://climatedebatedaily.com/

    http://www.whatyououghttoknow.com/sh...lobal-warming/
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  5. #45  
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    Here's an issue to think about. Who are we to decide what the optimal temperature is for the planet? What records do we go back to? The early 1800's? 1920? 1980's? Yes it is true that compared to ____________ (insert your reference of choice) we are warmer, but compared to _____________ , we are cooler. But if we just all reduce our carbon footprint, and retool our entire economy, we can restore, or maintain that "optimum" condition.
    If it's caution preached by conservatives, it's caution because of the known tendency for the left to want to use this issue as a way to further their environmental agendas. Nothing more sinister. The inference I've heard thrown around a time or two, that those who deny man made climate change are equivalent to holocaust deniers is ridiculous.
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  6. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    Here's an issue to think about. Who are we to decide what the optimal temperature is for the planet? What records do we go back to? The early 1800's? 1920? 1980's? Yes it is true that compared to ____________ (insert your reference of choice) we are warmer, but compared to _____________ , we are cooler. But if we just all reduce our carbon footprint, and retool our entire economy, we can restore, or maintain that "optimum" condition.
    If it's caution preached by conservatives, it's caution because of the known tendency for the left to want to use this issue as a way to further their environmental agendas.
    Separate the science and the politics... accepting or rejecting a scientific theory does not dictate what your political agenda must be. Some conservatives are so desperate not to lend any credibility to those on the other side that they are willing to deny scientific fact or even well established scientific theories at all costs, in order to keep pretending the left is 100% unanimously wrong on everything (pundits, and talk radio hosts especially)... that a couple ideas traditionally supported by the left might just be accurate seems to be too much to bear for some.. its a concession that, for whatever reason, cannot be tolerated. If you think AGW is a real possibility, that doesn't mean you have to sign on for carbon credits and the like... choices about the role of government will still be guided by your conservative worldview.

    But for many, the greater evil is that the left might be perceived to be more credible on an issue than the right... even when they might be, in reality.

    As far as the optimum, well.... we don't know.. that would depend on our specific aims... but we do know that even natural rapid changes in climate have led to dramatic changes in ecosystems.. including mass extinctions and the like... things that could most certainly pose difficulties for us. The concern isnt so much about what the a new global average might be, but over the rate of change.

    Nothing more sinister. The inference I've heard thrown around a time or two, that those who deny man made climate change are equivalent to holocaust deniers is ridiculous.
    Its not when you see the level of the discourse, as illustrated in the OP.. which sadly seems to dominate the landscape... can you look at the OP and some of the following posts and really say they arent as ridiculous as holocaust deniers? They most certainly are. Who can look at the nonsense in the OP and walk away claiming there is a clear thinking, rational adult with good methodologies in his decision making process on this issue? I wish I could say these types were the exception to the rule, but they arent, in my experience.
    Last edited by wilbur; 06-23-2009 at 12:33 PM.
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  7. #47  
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    And can you not say that there are those on the left, who embrace the idea with an almost cult like following, happy to believe that man is responsible for changing the climate drastically because it meshes so well with their anti-fossil fuel obsession? Even though they haven't got a clue about the science behind it, both the empirically proven, and the theoretical? They've even found a Jim Jones in the form of St. Al Gore, who is using exaggeration, hypebole and evangelical style sermons to rouse his flock and is actually discouraging any scientific questioning about what he's already decided is unassailable and beyond reproach.
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  8. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    And can you not say that there are those on the left, who embrace the idea with an almost cult like following, happy to believe that man is responsible for changing the climate drastically because it meshes so well with their anti-fossil fuel obsession? Even though they haven't got a clue about the science behind it, both the empirically proven, and the theoretical? They've even found a Jim Jones in the form of St. Al Gore, who is using exaggeration, hypebole and evangelical style sermons to rouse his flock and is actually discouraging any scientific questioning about what he's already decided is unassailable and beyond reproach.
    Sure... but the predominant posture I see seems to be "they do it, we don't"... all while fallacies that easily match the absurdity of the worst of the left-wing hysteria are spewed forth all over the place (see the OP). The entire anti-agw movement seems powered by such obvious fallacies, accompanied by the delusion that they are somehow fighting the good fight from some intellectual high ground when compared with the left.
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  9. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Its not when you see the level of the discourse, as illustrated in the OP.. which sadly seems to dominate the landscape... can you look at the OP and some of the following posts and really say they arent as ridiculous as holocaust deniers? They most certainly are. Who can look at the nonsense in the OP and walk away claiming there is a clear thinking, rational adult with good methodologies in his decision making process on this issue? I wish I could say these types were the exception to the rule, but they arent, in my experience.
    I can't speak for those who simply deny because they see it as a partisan issue...that's their misfortune and lack of critical thinking ability. I didn't come to my conclusions lightly and have tried reading about this since college. The first books I ever read on the subject were the ones written by Dr. Dixie Lee Ray...and are still two of the best for looking at this with a calm approach and not the fearmongering that has been the norm for so long.

    I personally believe that it's the lack of Pirates that caused global warming. I base this on the current research finding a correlation between the two.



    Clearly Pirates cause global warming.
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