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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    There are substances, that if ingested in amounts barely visible to the naked eye (with mass that is insignificant when compared with the mass of the average human), can kill any of us dead, quite quickly. It really is counterintuitive to think such a little amount of anything could kill someone.

    While it seems compelling at first to think that we are an insignificant spec in the ecosystem, and that such an insignificant spec couldn't possible cause drastic change quickly, its fallacious to think so, out of hand.

    Global climate change theory cannot be denied by simplistic comparisons to our size compared to the rest of the ecosystem.

    There could be a compelling argument from such a hypothesis if investigated properly... but I've never seen anyone present a good argument.. instead we are just supposed to be dazzled by the size of the earth or the ocean relative to our size. It doesnt fly.

    I don't mean to make our role in affairs seem insignificant because of the size of the earth. What I mean by that point is that the data is skewed and one of the main ways it is done so by the GCC is by selective scientific data.
    There are plenty of very "good arguments" against man made GCC and plenty of good scientists with data to the contrary

    Guys like Steve Macintyre run great resources for all the disinformation and have debunked the so called "experts" before. His blog and Ed Contoski's American Liberty blog are great for the distinguishing truth from the propaganda.

    http://www.climateaudit.org/

    http://www.amlibpub.com/liberty_blog/


    Is global warming happening...Probably.
    Is it man made?....The jury is way out. I happen to think not based on all the data I have gotten my hands on.
    Based on my experiences....most everything that government tells us they have to "protect" me from is most often a lie. Be it guns, terrorists, or some Chlorofluorocarbons buggaboo.

    On edit:
    I almost forgot the entire scientific community that hasn't signed on to the hype.
    http://www.petitionproject.org/
    Last edited by Molon Labe; 06-22-2009 at 03:57 PM.
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  2. #22  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    Isn't it somewhat arrogant that we humans believe that we can decide what the optimum temperature of the planet should be? How do we know the planet doesn't want to warm up?
    Al Gore has been in touch with Gaiea and says that she doesn't want to warm up, except in winter, when her feet get cold.
    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Unfortunately, we're moving toward a two season year:
    Winter & Summer
    with periodic unpredictable weather patterns, extreme and mild.
    BTW -- Climate Change was the 'softer' term suggested by a GOP pollster.
    And someone move this thread already...
    You're missing a much more imminent and cataclysmic cycle of change that has far greater implications for the planet. Since late December, the length of the daylight period in the northern hemisphere have been getting progressively longer, while the daylight time in the southern hemisphere has grown progressively shorter. If this trend continues, by next December, the northern hemisphere will be in permanent sunlight and the southern hemisphere will be in permanent darkness! However, if we act now, by approving a really big grant to me, I can impose a system involving consumption of really fine cigars and single malt scotch that will reverse the trend and begin returning the day/night cycle to equilibrium, but you have to get the money to me in the next week or so or it won't work. A couple of $ Billion ought to cover it. :p
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    On edit:
    I almost forgot the entire scientific community that hasn't signed on to the hype.
    http://www.petitionproject.org/
    Yikes! The Oregon Petition, really??

    After the petition appeared, the National Academy of Sciences said in a 1998 news release that "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal."[15] It also said "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." The NAS further noted that its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."[16]
    In May 1998 the Seattle Times wrote:
    Several environmental groups questioned dozens of the names: "Perry S. Mason" (the fictitious lawyer?), "Michael J. Fox" (the actor?), "Robert C. Byrd" (the senator?), "John C. Grisham" (the lawyer-author?). And then there's the Spice Girl, a k a. Geraldine Halliwell: The petition listed "Dr. Geri Halliwell" and "Dr. Halliwell."
    Asked about the pop singer, Robinson said he was duped. The returned petition, one of thousands of mailings he sent out, identified her as having a degree in microbiology and living in Boston. "When we're getting thousands of signatures there's no way of filtering out a fake," he said.

    In 2001, Scientific American reported:
    Scientific American took a random sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition —- one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community.

    In a 2005 op-ed in the Hawaii Reporter, Todd Shelly wrote:
    In less than 10 minutes of casual scanning, I found duplicate names (Did two Joe R. Eaglemans and two David Tompkins sign the petition, or were some individuals counted twice?), single names without even an initial (Biolchini), corporate names (Graybeal & Sayre, Inc. How does a business sign a petition?), and an apparently phony single name (Redwine, Ph.D.). These examples underscore a major weakness of the list: there is no way to check the authenticity of the names. Names are given, but no identifying information (e.g., institutional affiliation) is provided. Why the lack of transparency?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition
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  4. #24  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Yikes! The Oregon Petition, really??






    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition

    If the site I linked has something to do with your link, I am ufamiliar. The two do not appear to have much akin to one another.

    The petition project is legit. I've parused it many times and have not found any humorous false names listed. If you know of someone who has debunked it please list the link other than a wiki article about something that seems pretty unrelated.

    http://www.petitionproject.org/quali...of_signers.php
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    I don't mean to make our role in affairs seem insignificant because of the size of the earth. What I mean by that point is that the data is skewed and one of the main ways it is done so by the GCC is by selective scientific data.
    There are plenty of very "good arguments" against man made GCC and plenty of good scientists with data to the contrary

    Guys like Steve Macintyre run great resources for all the disinformation and have debunked the so called "experts" before. His blog and Ed Contoski's American Liberty blog are great for the distinguishing truth from the propaganda.

    http://www.climateaudit.org/
    I think anyone who has any interest in climate change has run across climate audit... and while I won't go so far as to say you can't trust anything on that website, it should be noted that Steve Mcintyre actually works or has worked in oil. One thing to keep in mind when consuming information from there... its not an unbiased source.

    There seems to be agreement on the fact that he is a good mathematician (ie he's not a climate scientist, but does have relevant field experience) and has pointed out some minor flaws in temperature measurements and such, but hasnt delt any significant blows to the theory of climate change.

    I havent heard of the other site, but will have a look.

    http://www.amlibpub.com/liberty_blog/


    Is global warming happening...Probably.
    Is it man made?....The jury is way out. I happen to think not based on all the data I have gotten my hands on.
    Based on my experiences....most everything that government tells us they have to "protect" me from is most often a lie. Be it guns, terrorists, or some Chlorofluorocarbons buggaboo.
    CFC's were a major problem... and the worldwide cooperation in eliminating CFC's is actually a great success story for international environmental regulation and cooperation... at the hands of government no less. But that was a much simpler problem than climate change. CFC's cause extensive damage to ozone... and a little bit goes a long way... it was easily observable and indisputable... and the solution was easily attainable at a fairly low cost.

    I'm not an alarmist either.

    The problem for those skeptics of global warming, is that all the known mechanisms (excluding human involvement) for the warming of the earth cannot account for all the warming that has occurred, be it from the sun or some other source. The theories of human causation has some pretty strong evidence. So its very reasonable to accept it as a valid theory and consider it a real possibility. One either has to deny the data, or come up with an alternate explanation.... neither task has been done successfully yet... not even by climate audit. Denying the data is the tac they have taken, but their disputes with data have been relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, even though accurate.

    On edit:
    I almost forgot the entire scientific community that hasn't signed on to the hype.
    http://www.petitionproject.org/
    The petition project is another well known, but long ago debunked anti-AGW staple and fraud.... I urge you to dig deeper into the actual qualifications of those on the list... most of whom have nothing more than BS degrees in scientific disciplines which may or may not even overlap with earth and climate sciences. As one with a BS in computer science, I could sign the list should I choose.
    Last edited by wilbur; 06-22-2009 at 05:24 PM.
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  6. #26  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    If you worked in oil - you are an evil biased source. If you take tax money and waste it - you're to be believed no matter what!!
    Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
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  7. #27  
    Super Moderator BadCat's Avatar
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    I'm all for this "climate change" thing. If it melts the polar ice caps, Hazlebutt will drown and I'll be closer to the beach.

    rm -rf obama*
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  8. #28  
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    I usually don't do the 'there, fixed' post... but this one deserves it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    If you take tax money to fund research - you are an evil biased source. If you work for oil - you're to be believed no matter what!!
    There, fixed!


    And of course, as per usual, you completely ignore what I write, and just read it as you want to read it... I merely said one should consider the possible bias (proper practice when consuming information from anyone who clearly a vested interest in a particular outcome)... I did not say to discount everything he says.

    If people are going to hold him up as a trustworthy authority, its proper to question their judgment and his credibility.
    Last edited by wilbur; 06-22-2009 at 05:15 PM.
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  9. #29  
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    Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming

    Over the past year, anecdotal evidence for a cooling planet has exploded. China has its coldest winter in 100 years. Baghdad sees its first snow in all recorded history. North America has the most snowcover in 50 years, with places like Wisconsin the highest since record-keeping began. Record levels of Antarctic sea ice, record cold in Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Mexico, Australia, Iran, Greece, South Africa, Greenland, Argentina, Chile -- the list goes on and on.

    No more than anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But now, that evidence has been supplanted by hard scientific fact. All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.

    A compiled list of all the sources can be seen here. The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to wipe out most of the warming recorded over the past 100 years. All in one year's time. For all four sources, it's the single fastest temperature change ever recorded, either up or down.
    ....

    Lots of embedded URL's at this URL.
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  10. #30  
    Senior Member stsinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teetop View Post


    Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming
    And so the NATURAL cycle goes..... What's next-extorting money out of us to stop Global Cooling??
    Obama-if you're being run out of town, get out in front and pretend that it's a parade!!!
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