Thread: Another forum akin to DU

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  1. #1 Another forum akin to DU 
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    I have a friend who wants me to join a forum she regularly posts on - so I went and read - and it so completely reminds me of DU - at least the membership does . . . .

    Check out this thread: http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=16400 in response to Glenn Beck pointing out that the Nazi's were leftists.


    06-20-2009, 08:31 AM #527856 / #28
    Martin B
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    Okay, let's say the Nazis were "left-wing" or whatever fucking artificial category you want to put them in. Let's take a look at some of the things that Fox News thinks is OK, as long as the Republican Party is doing it:

    * Special executive powers which circumvent the constitution
    * Abridged legal rights for people suspected of certain crimes
    * Equating dissent from a particular political point of view as treason (i.e. equating diversity of political opinion with a crime)
    * Extreme nationalism, and the equation of a national identity with an objective moral righteousness


    Where have we seen that before?
    Blueskyboris
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    Classical liberalism can only be conservative from a liberal welfare or left wing perspective.
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    Schneibster
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RED DAVE View Post
    Then these historians are dead wrong.
    What, all of 'em? C'mon, Dave, if you want to make up your own definitions of "left" and "right" that's fine, but please don't expect anyone else to understand what the fuck you're talking about or agree with you.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RED DAVE View Post
    They were firmly capitalist and of the Right. The Right is quite capable, like liberals, of supporting welfare policies such as unemployment. This does not make them socialist any more than it makes them liberals.
    Support for the unemployed is pretty firmly left; right thinks they should fend for themselves, maybe with the help of charity if they're not too grabby (you know, insisting that their children have to eat and stuff like that). In addition, there were major public works projects both for general public benefit and to put people to work (the autobahn system, which is much like the US interstate highway system, was put in place during this time), and in support of the war effort once that started (bunkers and such like). The right thinks that all should be done by private enterprise, not the state.

    Most significantly of all, they also originally said they would nationalize large industrial concerns, banks, and department stores. Strong support within the party for these policies continued through the mid-1930s, until the purges of the party began which ultimately changed the focus to the racial purity, nationalism, and lebensraum goals that are strongly popularly identified with the Nazis today, though the support of the workers continued. Much of the racial purity program focused on the upper middle and lower upper classes, substantially comprised of the Jewish Germans whose disenfranchisement accomplished at least some of the nationalization goals originally stated.

    You can find substantial information on this in A Concise History of Nazi Germany, by Joseph W. Bendersky, published by Rowman and Littlefield in its third edition in 2006. Google Books has a sample available online; try googling "nazi history nationalize corporations." It was the second hit for me. Bendersky is also the author of Carl Schmitt, Theorist for the Reich, which if you know much about the neo-conservative movement in the US you will know was a major influence on Leo Strauss; read more about that here. He is also a widely cited author among historians of the Second World War and Nazi Germany. And finally, he is a Professor of History, and Chair of the History Department, at Virginia Commonwealth University, and is one of the foremost historians of WWII and Nazi Germany in the world.

    As far as references go, am I gonna believe the college professor and sitting history department chair whose work is widely cited by experts in the field, or some anonymous dude on teh Intarwebs? The answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

    Now, your little ideological problem might make you feel that it's necessary to denigrate every reference that mentions anything the Nazis did as being leftist, but there are some of us who are a lot more interested in what actually happened, not only at the end but at the beginning. The reason is because we'd like to make sure it doesn't happen again, wherever we happen to live. And to do that we need to be aware of what actually happened and we don't give a shit about your little ideological problem. So if you want to talk about what actually happened, then let's do that, but if you're just gonna make stuff up because what you're hearing doesn't fit your ideology, nobody's gonna believe it or care, because we care about actual history, not your little ideological problem. K?

    If that rankles, perhaps you'll consider whether you wish to accuse me of being patronizing another time; if you're gonna make the accusation, my attitude is, I'm gonna make damn sure you get patronized. Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. And the accusation pisses me off, particularly since that wasn't what I was trying to do.

    And I'll also repeat that if all you're doing is making stuff up, what makes your ideology any better than the neocons'? Because that's what they do. The Big Lie is a well-known technique of theirs, and they got it from exactly the source I just mentioned: Carl Schmitt. The ends must justify the means, and as far as I'm concerned there is no possible justification for making stuff up about history. Santayana is often misquoted as saying, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it," and as far as I'm concerned that's justification for always making sure that you get history right. There is no ideological goal that I think is more important. And it's this last that concerns me the most and was the primary motivation for my first post. "I'm not interested in facts, my mind's made up" is no more palatable or useful from the left than it is from the right, as far as I'm concerned.
    Apparently - who ever dares disagee with this guy is making things up - he uses that claim several times in this discussion. . . .

    Esocyn
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    One needs not be stupid to misunderstand something, specially information that is not expressed clearly.
    I'm pretty sure when Ford and his buddies were planning a coup of the US government, and to install a fascist government in it's place, they were pretty clear on what fascism was. That's something that you sort of think through and try to research before doing.

    Quote:
    You are confusing Nazis with Fascist. They are not identical.
    I'm not confusing them with the Italian Fascists and I never said they were identical, you dolt. Fact of the matter is the Nazis were class collaborationist, as are any other ideology that's closely related to fascism or is based on fascism; the Falangists, the Japanese Imperials, the Nazis, the Iron Guard, etc. etc. etc.

    Quote:
    A classless state is not a contradiction, and class by merit is perfectly compatible with communism (since class needs not be based on economic/property status, but on social function). They hated communism because of its internationalism and its subjugation to the Soviet Union.
    A classless state is a contradiction; for there to be a state, you need classes and a hierarchy. Communism is necessarily classless and necessarily stateless.

    The Nazis wanted classes and thought that they were necessary. It directly contradicts your claim that the Nazis "in essence" wanted a "classless state."

    I get the feeling that you have no fucking clue what you're talking about here.
    This guy is a hoot!

    I have to wonder what their DU names are . . . .
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  2. #2  
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    This site is also much like DU except, it doesn't automatically ban non-Obama worship/groupthink. But, it allows members to vote on them which essentially buries Conservative posts.

    e-thepeople
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  3. #3  
    Super Moderator BadCat's Avatar
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    They look to be mostly Europeans, and nobody really cares about what they think about anything.

    rm -rf obama*
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member stsinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadCat View Post
    They look to be mostly Europeans, and nobody really cares about what they think about anything.
    Europeans have been so pussified that we just have to give up on them and try to survive on our own... It's really sad to listen to the English or French or any other European talk-they have just gone headlong into PC nonsense and weakness and it's just a damned shame.
    Obama-if you're being run out of town, get out in front and pretend that it's a parade!!!
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member samurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stsinner View Post
    Europeans have been so pussified that we just have to give up on them and try to survive on our own... It's really sad to listen to the English or French or any other European talk-they have just gone headlong into PC nonsense and weakness and it's just a damned shame.
    I don't know... conservatives won big over there in the last round of elections, and Sarkozy is running France now, the Netherlands are closing down pot bars by the dozens, and the Islamization of Europe is beginning to be recognized... I think they were very slow on the uptake, but are starting to turn around, especially now that they know they don't have Bush to protect them.
    The problem in the next four years will be not just that the president of the United States serially does not tell the truth. Instead, the real crisis in our brave new relativist world will be that those who demonstrate that he is untruthful will themselves be accused of lying. - Victor Davis Hanson
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member stsinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samurai View Post
    I don't know... conservatives won big over there in the last round of elections, and Sarkozy is running France now, the Netherlands are closing down pot bars by the dozens, and the Islamization of Europe is beginning to be recognized... I think they were very slow on the uptake, but are starting to turn around, especially now that they know they don't have Bush to protect them.
    I hope you're right.. Muslims have openly stated that they want to fly the flag of Islam over the White House, but people just ignore it like it was never said. Their goal is to Islamify the world, and it's been stated very clearly.. Hopefully our European friends are waking up.
    Obama-if you're being run out of town, get out in front and pretend that it's a parade!!!
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  7. #7  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadCat View Post
    They look to be mostly Europeans, and nobody really cares about what they think about anything.
    I don't think that they are all european - or even majority european. I think that they are by and large atheists and other such who are madly in love with progressivism in all it's form.
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