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  1. #11  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enslaved1 View Post
    Fixed. :D

    Folks forget that prison is supposed to have two purposes. One is punishment for crime, the other is rehabilitation from criminal activity. When dealing with sexual criminals, especially ones committing crimes against children, they should not be released until there is at least some evidence that they are no longer a danger to society.
    Actually, keeping felons separated from society, aside from punishment and rehabilitation, is a third function of prisons, but it has been subordinated to often futile rehabilitation efforts. That's one of the reasons that three-strikes laws were introduced, because liberal applications of parole were defeating the intents of legislators and courts in sentencing.

    One of the major problems with sex offenders is that many cannot be rehabilitated. By the time they engage in their first acts, they are so twisted that they will never be able to deal with their sexual/power issues and will always remain a major risk. In the case of those persons, prison sentences should be tailored with the intent of isolating them from their victim pool for as long as necessary, which, more often than not, means for life.
    --Odysseus
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Actually, keeping felons separated from society, aside from punishment and rehabilitation, is a third function of prisons, but it has been subordinated to often futile rehabilitation efforts. That's one of the reasons that three-strikes laws were introduced, because liberal applications of parole were defeating the intents of legislators and courts in sentencing.

    One of the major problems with sex offenders is that many cannot be rehabilitated. By the time they engage in their first acts, they are so twisted that they will never be able to deal with their sexual/power issues and will always remain a major risk. In the case of those persons, prison sentences should be tailored with the intent of isolating them from their victim pool for as long as necessary, which, more often than not, means for life.
    Great post.
    One does not greet death when he knocks at your door.

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  3. #13  
    Senior Member enslaved1's Avatar
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    The implication of my statement was if they cannot or will not be rehabilitated, then they don't get out. Oh wait....

    Quote Originally Posted by enslaved1
    they should not be released until there is at least some evidence that they are no longer a danger to society.
    BTW asdf, most alcoholics and drug addicts aren't considered cured either, but they can learn to control themselves. Same way with many other mental illnesses. It would take a lot of work on the part of the system and the criminal, but such work would be cheaper than lifetimes in prison, and offer hope to people who struggle with such problems. Most would, in all likely hood, spend the rest of their lives in institutions, and I have no problem with that. I would much rather them being forced to try and get better than able to wander about free with no attempts to made to fix them, just forcing them to congregate in those rare areas where they are allowed to live.

    odysseus, I would say that keeping felons separated is more of a result of the rehab being unsuccessful than a purpose of prison. They commit crime, are punished, and attempts are made to straighten them out. If, after they get out or even while they are in the system, it becomes apparent that a criminal is not willing or able to enter normal society, either because they are too screwed up to be helped or they don't want to be helped, then the separation comes into play.
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  4. #14  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enslaved1 View Post
    The implication of my statement was if they cannot or will not be rehabilitated, then they don't get out. Oh wait....
    BTW asdf, most alcoholics and drug addicts aren't considered cured either, but they can learn to control themselves. Same way with many other mental illnesses. It would take a lot of work on the part of the system and the criminal, but such work would be cheaper than lifetimes in prison, and offer hope to people who struggle with such problems. Most would, in all likely hood, spend the rest of their lives in institutions, and I have no problem with that. I would much rather them being forced to try and get better than able to wander about free with no attempts to made to fix them, just forcing them to congregate in those rare areas where they are allowed to live.

    odysseus, I would say that keeping felons separated is more of a result of the rehab being unsuccessful than a purpose of prison. They commit crime, are punished, and attempts are made to straighten them out. If, after they get out or even while they are in the system, it becomes apparent that a criminal is not willing or able to enter normal society, either because they are too screwed up to be helped or they don't want to be helped, then the separation comes into play.
    Rehabitilitation is a relatively recent phenomena in law enforcement. Most societies, especially agrarian ones in which people understood the concept of predators and prey, simply assumed that non-criminals had the right to be protected from criminals. Sentences were imposed in order to make criminals pay a debt to society, but the influence of Rousseau's philosophical construct of the "noble savage" inverted that concept and gradually created the justification for blaming society for criminal conduct. Thus, the criminal was the one who was wronged, and therefore it was up to society to redeem him. Unfortunately, redemption is an individual act and cannot be imposed, but it's relatively easy to game the system and make a convincing pretense of contrition. That's why so many modern sentences are shortened by parole, when it was originally an exception made for criminals who had demonstrated extraordinary changes to their behavior, rather than a recurring review of all prison records.

    It's like the old joke about how many psychiatrists it takes to change a lightbulb. Only one, but the lightbulb has to genuinely want to change.
    --Odysseus
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  5. #15  
    The problem we have is in differentiating between sex crimes in general and child attacks in particular. Adults (well, adult women) know that there is always a risk of being sexually attacked and they know how to minimize that risk and take evasive or offensive action. Children don't know these things and need a higher level of protection.

    We need to winnow out the real child sexual attackers and give them life instead of releasing them into a limbo of zoning laws.

    All the the rest: exhibitionists, peeping Toms, unlucky drunks, teen lovers, etc., need to be charged with less anxiety-provoking labels.
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  6. #16  
    TANSTAAFL. asdf2231's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enslaved1 View Post
    BTW asdf, most alcoholics and drug addicts aren't considered cured either, but they can learn to control themselves. Same way with many other mental illnesses. It would take a lot of work on the part of the system and the criminal, but such work would be cheaper than lifetimes in prison, and offer hope to people who struggle with such problems. Most would, in all likely hood, spend the rest of their lives in institutions, and I have no problem with that. I would much rather them being forced to try and get better than able to wander about free with no attempts to made to fix them, just forcing them to congregate in those rare areas where they are allowed to live.

    RANDOLPH, Vt. (AP) — Instead of gathering at a vigil to offer prayers for the safe return of a missing 12-year-old girl, residents found themselves mourning the news that her body had been found.
    <snip.>
    As state police announced the grim news Wednesday evening, they said Michael Jacques, the girl's 42-year-old uncle and a convicted sex offender, will face federal kidnapping charges.
    http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/...ist=topstories

    Judge Amy Davenport, now the state’s administrative judge, agreed in 2004 to shorten by seven years the probation Michael Jacques should serve in connection with the rape and kidnapping of a West Rutland woman in 1992.

    Davenport, while acknowledging the severity of Jacques’ crime, said he appeared to have rehabilitated himself and met all his probation requirements since his release from prison after serving four years of a six-to 20-year sentence imposed in 1993.

    “As defendant and his probation officer point out, the rehabilitative function of probation has been successfully accomplished in his case,” Davenport wrote in a Nov. 4, 2004, ruling that said Jacques’ probation would end in 2006 if he remained trouble-free.
    http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...EWS01/80704001

    How about we just kill them and then we don't have to worry about the zoning laws?
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  7. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by asdf2231 View Post
    How about we just kill them and then we don't have to worry about the zoning laws?
    Because then they will feel no compunction about killing their victims. Not all sexually abused children are killed in the act. Most live to put their lives back together. While I'm all about the death penalty, it doesn't help in cases where the criminal is motivated by sexual urges. If you get killed for raping a child, you might as well kill the witness. It's easier. The same is true for raping adults.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf2231 View Post
    People who engage in predatory sex acts with children are hardwired in their responses to stimuli.
    You. Can't. "Cure". Them.

    And killing the motherfuckers surely insures that they are "No longer a danger to society."
    That works for me.
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  9. #19  
    Administrator SaintLouieWoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    The problem we have is in differentiating between sex crimes in general and child attacks in particular. Adults (well, adult women) know that there is always a risk of being sexually attacked and they know how to minimize that risk and take evasive or offensive action. Children don't know these things and need a higher level of protection.

    We need to winnow out the real child sexual attackers and give them life instead of releasing them into a limbo of zoning laws.

    All the the rest: exhibitionists, peeping Toms, unlucky drunks, teen lovers, etc., need to be charged with less anxiety-provoking labels.
    Many adult women don't know. A family member, now deceased, was raped by a guy out on parole for raping a 13 year old. Trouble is, she was 83 at the time. He knocked on the door and asked to use her phone. She never was the same, ended up in a nursing home shortly after the rape as she could no longer care for herself.

    He was caught, sentenced to life in prison. I wish there would have been the death penalty. He was a predator of both children and seniors.
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  10. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by SaintLouieWoman View Post
    Many adult women don't know. A family member, now deceased, was raped by a guy out on parole for raping a 13 year old. Trouble is, she was 83 at the time. He knocked on the door and asked to use her phone. She never was the same, ended up in a nursing home shortly after the rape as she could no longer care for herself.

    He was caught, sentenced to life in prison. I wish there would have been the death penalty. He was a predator of both children and seniors.
    That's awful but all adult women should know better than to let anybody they don't know into their homes. You can always call for somebody. Ditto for rides in the car. This is why Colt is a woman's best friend. God made Adam and Eve but Colt made them equal. ;)
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