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  1. #41  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Odysseus;22187]
    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post

    I am. It's my job.

    Americans aren't sacrificing in this war because no one has tried to mobilize the public the way that it was done during WWII, but that's not entirely a bad thing. Often, that mobilization is accompanied by massive power grabs by the federal government. The claims that the Bush administration have somehow taken on unprecedented executive powers flies in the face of the actions of the Roosevelt and Wilson administrations, which imposed wartime socialism under the aegis of the war effort, accompanied by very real attacks on dissent and basic constitutional rights. People who questioned US entry into WWI were often jailed, and thousand of Americans of German descent were interned. During WWII, the internment of Japanese-Americans, regardless of citizenship, was only the most famous example of Roosevelt's crackdowns. German and Italian-Americans were also interned, although at a lesser rate, and their property was confiscated as well. Opposition to the National Recovery Act could result in government-orchestrated boycotts of any business and even violence against its employees.

    There's a lot of room between a full-scale mobilization of the American public and a committed administration using its legitimate authority to fight a war against enemies who have no compunction against the murder or enslavement of millions of Americans in order to advance their global order on us.
    Sir, I aplaude your knowledge of history on the subject of war and it's true motivating factors throughout American History. As a Marine, I've always been taught of the Battle of Belleau Wood, the great Marine Corps victories of WWI. What is convieniently left out is that WWI was largely unnecessary, much more so then the Left claims the War on Terror is today. WWI was largely the means of mobilizing the masses as you stated above, perputrated by argueably the worst and most fascist administration in American history; that of Wilson.

    I myself have fallen victim to chastizing those who seem to not sacrifice anything for our current war effort, especially while I'm in Iraq like I am now. But NOT sacrificing for the war effort is what makes America truly great. The freedom to support our troops, or call us "baby killers" is what I signed up to defend. It's what I'm willing to die in defense of.

    What I'm NOT willing to die in defense of is inconsiderate, arrogant idiots like the current congress. I refuse to have my memory tarnished or my service trivialized as a statistic to promote an agenda. The people can say what they want about our Commander in Chief, but he's one person in Politics I know in my heart actually gives a crap about all of us here in the sandbox.
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  2. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinejcksn View Post
    WWI was largely the means of mobilizing the masses as you stated above, perputrated by argueably the worst and most fascist administration in American history; that of Wilson.
    He wasn't fascist, he was the first of many who thought he could "do good" with an army though.
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  3. #43  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwater View Post
    He wasn't fascist, he was the first of many who thought he could "do good" with an army though.
    Wilson's use of a military structure for civilian institutions was very much fascistic, even if the term didn't exist then. In addition, most of his wartime socialism program and propaganda efforts were eerie precursors to the Italian and German fascism that followed. Wilson considered himself a progressive, but much of the progressive program was identical to the programs of the fascist states, especially in regards to eugenics and birth control policies. For a really superb history and analysis, see Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  4. #44  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Wilson's use of a military structure for civilian institutions was very much fascistic, even if the term didn't exist then. In addition, most of his wartime socialism program and propaganda efforts were eerie precursors to the Italian and German fascism that followed. Wilson considered himself a progressive, but much of the progressive program was identical to the programs of the fascist states, especially in regards to eugenics and birth control policies. For a really superb history and analysis, see Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism.
    Excellent reference Sir, I finished that excellent book in a little less then a week, couldn't put it down. He draws amazing parallels between the Wilson and Roosavelt administrations. Funny that FDR is seemingly remembered as one of this nations better presidents by some, when in my opinion he was dismal at best. Really made me look at the actual history of this country, rather then the versions I'd been handed before.

    Interesting that the whole Uncle Sam "I want You" poster came from this era, I never knew it before.
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  5. #45  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmPat View Post

    Then you are totally mistaken. I don't believe in half hearted war anymore than half-stupid. I also don't believe in sitting back and waiting for the inevitable. You take the fight to the enemy. You pound him until he is no longer a threat. You do not half step or "Hope" he sees reason. The war is the end of negotiation and diplomacy and the beginning of the punishment phase. Trying to equate this war with the past static/classic wars isn't possible. We have to find and kill the enemy wherever he is. There can be no safe haven. I don't see salvaging rubber and victory gardens for all Americans any more necessary in this war as blitkreig lights and ramparts. This is a different ind of war.
    I am not one iota safer today from what Bush did after 9/11 than I was prior. Lately, some of us seem to have fallen into that Liberal mantra that suggests taking some action is better than no action at all. Yes.. There was action needed, but overreaction was a key component to Bin laden's ideas. That doesn't mean you go into it with a bull in a china shop mentality just because it's not "half hearted".
    Of course we should hunt him and his cronies down and kill him, but to think him some dumb ass Islamic crazy who hasn't thought this through is a mistake. This enemy is far more savy than the policy makers understand. The military men understand it alot better now after 8 years. There were alot people who have been in theatre that were all gung ho early on....but few who actually face it day to day talk like this now.
    Last edited by Molon Labe; 07-23-2008 at 12:55 PM.
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  6. #46  
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    Now wait ... wasn't it the liberals that wanted this to be a law enforcement issue. No we are not anymore or less safe, but we have lost some freedoms. Nazi-pelosi and her ilk are truly upset that 9/11 didn't happen on their watch. Not to go of the deep end or anything, but history history tells me that had 9/11 happened during a democratic administration things would have been far,far worse with less being said about it in the msm. Wilson suspended far more constitutional rights, pushed propaganda after sitting long on the fence. FDR fiddled while Britain burned as his "progressive" policies regressed American society. All the while he knew as Hitler did, it was bancruptcy or war. And who was it that instituted the draft during Viet-Nam. Which party was it that first brought the FBI to bear on anti-war activists and other so-called subversives. We will soon be doomed to repeat history, because far too few understand it.
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  7. #47  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConJinx View Post
    Now wait ... wasn't it the liberals that wanted this to be a law enforcement issue. No we are not anymore or less safe, but we have lost some freedoms. Nazi-pelosi and her ilk are truly upset that 9/11 didn't happen on their watch. Not to go of the deep end or anything, but history history tells me that had 9/11 happened during a democratic administration things would have been far,far worse with less being said about it in the msm. Wilson suspended far more constitutional rights, pushed propaganda after sitting long on the fence. FDR fiddled while Britain burned as his "progressive" policies regressed American society. All the while he knew as Hitler did, it was bancruptcy or war. And who was it that instituted the draft during Viet-Nam. Which party was it that first brought the FBI to bear on anti-war activists and other so-called subversives. We will soon be doomed to repeat history, because far too few understand it.
    I can't totally disagree with that assessment.
    I despise Wilson's for allowing government to creep into the stratosphere. It has been mostly Democratic presidencies that have gotten us into stupid engagements. I used to think "thank God it wasn't a democrat after 9-11.....but what's the difference when your RINO President's policies and incompetancy mimic the heyday of LBJ and Wilson?
    I'm more apt to believe that if the current course continues, the future will more resemble bankruptcy because of war.

    And thanks to Bush...he may have ensured we get one most horrid examples of Presidential leadership in 08 in Obama. Good God!
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  8. #48  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    I can't totally disagree with that assessment.
    I despise Wilson's for allowing government to creep into the stratosphere. It has been mostly Democratic presidencies that have gotten us into stupid engagements. I used to think "thank God it wasn't a democrat after 9-11.....but what's the difference when your RINO President's policies and incompetancy mimic the heyday of LBJ and Wilson?
    I'm more apt to believe that if the current course continues, the future will more resemble bankruptcy because of war.

    And thanks to Bush...he may have ensured we get one most horrid examples of Presidential leadership in 08 in Obama. Good God!
    Bush has done more then anyone I can think of in recent years to kill Conservatism. We should've seen the signs immediately when he jumped onto the Pat Buccanan phrase of "Compassionate Conservatism". When G.W. said that "When somebody hurts, it's the Government's responsibility to move", that should've been the smoking gun, Red flag to all of us. Bush created the largest government entitlement since the "Great" Society under LBJ for crying out loud!

    We need real conservatives, not the illusion of those who call themselves ones. We need Barry Goldwater, not Barry Obama. Sadly, I think most people will just drift back to slumberland. I almost want Obama to win, 4 years of hell might be worth the wake up call. We made it through President Planters and got the Gipper. Who knows.

    I'll say one thing: If Mac doesn't pick a STRONG conservative as his VP I'm voting for Bob Barr. It might be "throwing away my vote" but I'd rather pick a long shot Libertarian candidate then vote the lesser of 2 evils again.
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  9. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    I am not one iota safer today from what Bush did after 9/11 than I was prior. Lately, some of us seem to have fallen into that Liberal mantra that suggests taking some action is better than no action at all. Yes.. There was action needed, but overreaction was a key component to Bin laden's ideas. That doesn't mean you go into it with a bull in a china shop mentality just because it's not "half hearted".
    Of course we should hunt him and his cronies down and kill him, but to think him some dumb ass Islamic crazy who hasn't thought this through is a mistake. This enemy is far more savy than the policy makers understand. The military men understand it alot better now after 8 years. There were alot people who have been in theatre that were all gung ho early on....but few who actually face it day to day talk like this now.
    I'm one of them.
    Next?
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  10. #50  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmPat View Post
    I'm one of them.
    Next?
    A good friend. soldier won a high leverl award in Iraq. He was one of those "let's kick some ass" soldiers with at "take no prisoner's attitude". His observation a year later was that by driving people off the roads into ditches, as is the procedure, he concluded, "if someone occupying my country drove me off the road into a ditch here, I'd probably go join an insurgency too..they don't want democracy....they just want to shit and piss in the street and live their f'ed up Haji way of life".
    Someone said here recently and best....

    We are not allowing middle easterners to live as they see fit! We are dictating to them how they will live under the duress of military action. You people on this board had better damn well learn to accept that U.S. military might is currently being used to tell people how they should behave.
    If you wnat to see how our unitended consequences affect our ability to nationbuild then look no further than last weeks example in Saladin Province with the Governor's son. The Gov vowed that his son's death will not be in vain. Another example of someone who could care less about Muslim extremism may now be another feather in the insurgency cap.


    Quote Originally Posted by marinejcksn View Post
    I'll say one thing: If Mac doesn't pick a STRONG conservative as his VP I'm voting for Bob Barr. It might be "throwing away my vote" but I'd rather pick a long shot Libertarian candidate then vote the lesser of 2 evils again.
    I voted for Bush twice. if I even vote at all this year, it's a choice between Bob Barr or Chuck Baldwin....
    I think Nader may be a principled person...but I could never bring myself to pull the lever for a socialist.
    At least when everything goes to hell I can say I didn't vote for McCain or Obama.
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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