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  1. #11  
    Senior Member hampshirebrit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillygirl View Post
    I asked your thoughts only because you've referenced two different standards. I think your understanding of the the two terms is correct. I just wanted to see where you fell on the standard to be used in order to engage in torture. (Actually, I don't know the standard that is used in convicting terrorists in our military courts, but you've certainly articulated properly the standard to be used in regular criminal courts.

    I'm find with preponderance of the evidence standard...more likely than not he is a terrorist with possession of intel that would directly benefit our cause and which may either save lives, or bring to justice those responsible for the taking of lives in the context of terrorism. I'm not necessarily comfortable with using that intel in a court of law...but I am comfortable with using it in the context of prosecuting a war and using any info gathered from that to help in that endeavor.
    Then we truly do agree on this issue, while both finding it abhorrent, and something that one should hope we will never be called upon to engage with.

    My thought is that application of the lower (probable cause) standard should be the determining agency. By the time the higher one (beyond reasonable doubt) was applied legally, it could be too late to prevent loss of life, in the current environment.

    But the standard of determining probable cause should be set far higher than that which would be applied in civil cases.
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  2. #12  
    Goldwater
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    Of course it's torture, we all know it is, even the people who say it isn't, they just want the legal loophole.

    As for whether it should be done, I don't exactly have sympathy for the guy who masterminded 9/11 and beheaded soldiers.
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  3. #13  
    Banned - Not really Theo
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    Quote Originally Posted by lacarnut View Post
    I would say that anything that a Navy Seals endures would not be considered torture by our military and prisoner standards. Comparatively, a Seal that goes thru frigid waters for several hours in training would gladly trade that for a water-boarding exercise.

    Hitchens is an old fart; the muzzies that have gotten water-boarded are much younger. A 30 or 40 year age differential makes a big difference don't you think?
    That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? Gladly
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    Waterboarding is not torture. It sucks, but it's leagues away from bamboo shoots under the fingernails. I'm so f'ing sick of this stupid arguement.
    "Don't vote. It only encourages the bastards." -PJ O'Roarke
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  5. #15  
    Senior Member YupItsMe's Avatar
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    For Islamofacists I have no problem with waterboarding, but for myself I would prefer the panties on the head and the brushing of breasts against me.
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YupItsMe View Post
    For Islamofacists I have no problem with waterboarding, but for myself I would prefer the panties on the head and the brushing of breasts against me.

    OH THE HUMANITY!
    "Don't vote. It only encourages the bastards." -PJ O'Roarke
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  7. #17  
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    Water boarding is torture and should not be part of the standard interrogation procedure of the USA. Yeah, I know they do worse, but we aren't them.

    And what Seals go through is something they can always quit at any time. The difference is the prisoner is not allowed to quit. That is what makes it torture.

    Now, if a captain in the field is pretty certain he just nabbed a guy who set a nuclear weapon on a timer in downtown USA and uses torture to find and disarm it - I will want him tried, and cleared for extenuating circumstances. No black mark. Sometimes the situation simply isn't covered by rules of engagement in the conflict between the west and radical islam. But he better be right and not torture the wrong person.
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  8. #18  
    Goldwater
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinejcksn View Post
    Waterboarding is not torture. It sucks, but it's leagues away from bamboo shoots under the fingernails. I'm so f'ing sick of this stupid arguement.
    How can it not be torture? So it isn't as bad as other forms of torture, you're still being drowned.
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  9. #19  
    Banned - Not really Theo
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat-pattaya View Post
    Water boarding is torture and should not be part of the standard interrogation procedure of the USA. Yeah, I know they do worse, but we aren't them.

    And what Seals go through is something they can always quit at any time. The difference is the prisoner is not allowed to quit. That is what makes it torture.

    Now, if a captain in the field is pretty certain he just nabbed a guy who set a nuclear weapon on a timer in downtown USA and uses torture to find and disarm it - I will want him tried, and cleared for extenuating circumstances. No black mark. Sometimes the situation simply isn't covered by rules of engagement in the conflict between the west and radical islam. But he better be right and not torture the wrong person.
    Tried?? :eek: What are you smoking? I want him given the Congressional Medal of Honor.
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  10. #20  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat-pattaya View Post
    Water boarding is torture and should not be part of the standard interrogation procedure of the USA. Yeah, I know they do worse, but we aren't them.

    And what Seals go through is something they can always quit at any time. The difference is the prisoner is not allowed to quit. That is what makes it torture.
    The prisoner can quit any time that he wants to. He just has to spill what he knows. The critical issue is why we're using the technique. Remember that a lot of the liberals who are apalled by waterboarding terrorists would have no problem if Karl Rove or Dick Cheney were strapped down.

    Quote Originally Posted by YupItsMe View Post
    For Islamofacists I have no problem with waterboarding, but for myself I would prefer the panties on the head and the brushing of breasts against me.
    I can only hold out against that treatment for a few years, at most, but then, I'm getting old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwater View Post
    How can it not be torture? So it isn't as bad as other forms of torture, you're still being drowned.
    It depends on the medium. With water, it's certainly torture. With single-malt scotch, it's nirvana.

    Seriously, the use of waterboarding is not to gain evidence in a criminal proceding, but to gain immediate tactical information on current operations that will otherwise result in death to American citizens. By the time someone is on the board, their identity as a terrorist is already known . The results of a waterboarding would be used to intercept a terror attack, but not to convict a terrorist. Information gained under duress should never be admissable in a court.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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