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  1. #21  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Even if we are still at a place where we cannot say one is worse than the other, the simple fact is still that the United States government sends BILLIONS of dollars in tax-payer money to fund Israeli actions without putting any restrictions based on their actions.
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  2. #22  
    Sonnabend
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    Apartheid is an international crime.


    Israel, like all natons has a right to defend itself, and yes Arabs are suicide bombing and attacking them regularly
    There is no such place as Palestine. It does not exist, is not on any map, and has no basis in reality.
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  3. #23  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnabend View Post
    There is no such place as Palestine. It does not exist, is not on any map, and has no basis in reality.
    There are people who exist though, something the Israeli government seems all too eager to forget.
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  4. #24  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    One is an oppressed individual committing a violent offense against civilians. Undeniably bad and totally unjustifiable. Its like a dog backed against a corner, it bites. The dog still gets put down, but it's behavior is not unexpected.

    The other is a(n extremely powerful, nuclear armed) nation systematically oppressing an ethnic group (both non-citizens and citizens) and violating international law with total impunity.

    While both are undoubtably bad, I'd say that institutionalized apartheid is worse than violent acts of "going postal" so to speak.
    So to be back in to a corner is an excuse to behave like an animal instead of rising above that time up behavior.

    There would be no "institutionalized apartheid" as you call it if there were no homicide bombers. There would be no reason to build fences and segregate one population from the other if people intent on murdering civilians didn't walk in to cafes or sit down on buses or walk in to cowarded markets and blow themselves up. If you look at the history of things this "institutionalized apartheid" didn't start until the homicide bombers started killing unsuspecting people. I would much rather see a fence built to keep killers out than to send in a battalion of men and equipment in to the areas that harbor them and take more undeserving blood.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  5. #25  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnabend View Post
    There is no such place as Palestine. It does not exist, is not on any map, and has no basis in reality.
    There is such a place as Palestine and it has been on maps since around 150 to 200 A.D. Would you like for me to prove this to you once and for all or do you want to continue to propagate this fiction?

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  6. #26  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    So to be back in to a corner is an excuse to behave like an animal instead of rising above that time up behavior.

    There would be no "institutionalized apartheid" as you call it if there were no homicide bombers. There would be no reason to build fences and segregate one population from the other if people intent on murdering civilians didn't walk in to cafes or sit down on buses or walk in to cowarded markets and blow themselves up. If you look at the history of things this "institutionalized apartheid" didn't start until the homicide bombers started killing unsuspecting people. I would much rather see a fence built to keep killers out than to send in a battalion of men and equipment in to the areas that harbor them and take more undeserving blood.
    And here is where we get to the chicken and the egg problem. One side says the apartheid policies are a necessary result of suicide bombings and radical attacks as a means of self-defense. The other side says the bombings and attacks are a result of the dehumanizing apartheid that makes them believe they have no choice.

    Here the issue isn't so clear cut because neither side is without fault.

    I'd like to recommend a documentary about this issue called Death in Gaza

    It focuses on the children growing up in gaza, hoping to see (without justifying it mind you) what it is like growing up in that environment and what exactly pushes these people to hate so deeply they are willing to kill themselves just to hurt the "enemy". It shows how propaganda and martyr worship is used to convince youngsters to give their lives for the cause, and it shows the constant fear and terror they live in.

    The director of this film intended to have half of the film focusing on children in Gaza, and the other half focusing on children in Israel. Unfortunately, during the filming of this movie, the director was shot and killed by Israeli defense forces. The altercation that included the killing of the director was actually caught on film and is shown in it (a bit ironic don't you think?)

    The film is very powerful and doesn't offer any clear answers, in fact if anything it only opens up more questions. I highly recommend it.
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  7. #27  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    It's available to watch free here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...death+in+gaza#
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  8. #28  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    It's really sad because some of the children they focus on are adorable. Very sweet and kindhearted, cute and much like American kids. However, you can see very clearly easy it is for something so divine as childhood can be turned into radical violent martyrdom.
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    And here is where we get to the chicken and the egg problem. One side says the apartheid policies are a necessary result of suicide bombings and radical attacks as a means of self-defense. The other side says the bombings and attacks are a result of the dehumanizing apartheid that makes them believe they have no choice.

    Read this and get back to us. Black September in Jordan with all this chicken and egg thory.
    At least once every human should have to run for his life, to teach him that milk does not come from supermarkets, that safety does not come from policemen, that news is not something that happens to other people. ~ Robert Heinlein

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  10. #30  
    Member JBG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Apartheid is an international crime.
    I tend to agree. But I have a question. Why does integration run only one way? Why do whites have to give up apartheid, but their physical safety and/or property rights aren't necessarily respected in a "majority" regime. ALl that one has to do is look what's happened in Zimbabwe, and what's in progress in South Africa, as well as most other African countries which attained independence since WW II. Integration should mean respect for all property and personal rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Israel, like all natons has a right to defend itself, and yes Palistinians are suicide bombing and are (fixed error)attacking them regularly. However, it doesn't give Israel the right to place prohibition of Arabs (even Israeli citizens) to prvent] prevent (fixed error) them from marriage, from land ownership, from attaining water, vote, and so on. They systematically abuse the Arab people in the area even more than South Africa did to blacks not too long ag (should be "ago") (fixed error).

    It is absolutely dehumanizing. An 11 year old child from Gaza throws a rock at an Israeli tank that rolls up and down his ( as a leftist you should use gender-neutral terms broken street, and the tank opens fire at him and kills him. This is not an unusual occurance.

    Ther'es There are (fixed error) restrictions on travel education, really it's a full top to bottom very explicit apartheid. It's sad because Western media (even the EVVILLL LIBERALLLL CHANNELS) don't report on this.

    My god they simple build roads and walls right over Palistinian Palestinian (fixed error) (or simply say "the zoo") land and prohibit them from crossing it, effectively annexing their land more and more each year.

    It's an absolute atrocity and while they do have a legitimate justification for self-defense, they do not have a free card to commit crimes against humanity.
    It would seem that if the Arabs want these kind of events to stop, good faith bargaining by them would be in order. This means bargaining wtihout preconditions. The problem of course is that as always when bargaining with Arabs, the "give" is always one way and the "take" is always the other way.
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    September 11; a moment of great moral clarity
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