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  1. #41  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliCon View Post
    Sometimes you value human life enough to know that one death in the right circumstances will save many more lives. A well placed shit in the head of a ring leader at the onset of violence will save many victims of said violence.
    I was thinking of how someone would feel if their little brother or son threw a rock and broke someone's window. If I am to take as literal the statements of a few, I would be justified in taking out a gun and killing them. Would any one feel differently if they experienced that? I understand killing as self defence or as the punishment determined by a court of law. What I don't understand is killing over the loss of material goods that can be replaced.

    What you propose in the above statement is not often realized in actuality. Take the mafia or the street gangs of any big city. They kill each others leaders all the time but it has not ended the gangs or the killing. The killing of a ring leader would work on sensibile people but I don't think we are dealing with sensible people. I think that we are dealing with people whose feelings of vengence is stronger than the fear of retribution. Killing them all would be an option but a lot more people than me would find that a bit extreme.

    Something else I find strange is people's seeming displeasure with my opinion of pacifism. I read the New Testament and this is what I conclude from reading it. I read the words and look at the examples of those who lived out their lives in its pages. I know that people don't see things, nor are expected to, as I do but some seem a bit hostile because I have choosen to live like this. I place a high value on human life because we are all image barers. I don't think that anyone would fault me for putting their life over my own if the situation called for it, but the issue seems to arise when I put the life of someone they deem undesirable on par with theirs.

    In my opinion, God is the only one who can unerringly and rightly give death for punishment but he delegated some of that authority to the governments of the world. I don't find were he delegated any of it to me as an individual. I might be wrong about this, and I am always looking for new and better ways of understanding God's will so I am open to having my mind changed if it really matters to anyone.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  2. #42  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    ...In my opinion, God is the only one who can unerringly and rightly give death for punishment but he delegated some of that authority to the governments of the world. I don't find were he delegated any of it to me as an individual. I might be wrong about this, and I am always looking for new and better ways of understanding God's will so I am open to having my mind changed if it really matters to anyone.
    I usually agree with you, but this time, I have to disagree. Material goods/property are the means by which we sustain our lives. The fruits of our labors are often the difference between life and death, and the principle, that we have the right to keep what we create, is the principle that divides free people and slaves. Free people keep what they create and, in doing so, own not only their goods, but their lives, while slaves work solely for the largesse of their masters. Those who take from others, or vandalize the property of others, deny them the means to live, in effect enslaving those who they victimize. Free people have the right to protect, not only our lives, but the means by which we sustain our lives, and that is a right of individuals, not governments. If God delegated the authority to judge and to execute judgement, it was to individuals, because individuals predate governments, and only then did individuals delegate that authority to governments, something that governments tend to forget when they try to restrict the right to self-defense.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  3. #43  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    I usually agree with you, but this time, I have to disagree. Material goods/property are the means by which we sustain our lives. The fruits of our labors are often the difference between life and death, and the principle, that we have the right to keep what we create, is the principle that divides free people and slaves. Free people keep what they create and, in doing so, own not only their goods, but their lives, while slaves work solely for the largesse of their masters. Those who take from others, or vandalize the property of others, deny them the means to live, in effect enslaving those who they victimize. Free people have the right to protect, not only our lives, but the means by which we sustain our lives, and that is a right of individuals, not governments.
    Please forgive me for quoting scripture but this is what I base my life on so I thought I would share so that you might have some insight into my thinking. Again, I am not saying this is how anyone one should look at things. That is between a person and God. This is the way God has me look at things. I firmly believe that since I keep my concept about material possessions in the proper perspective, He allows me to have a lot of things. Nothing that I own would I kill over because I believe that God will provide me with the means to replace what I have lost.

    Matthew 6:25-34
    25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
    28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
    For the record, I see no reason not to protect you property, my issue with it is to use deadly force to do so. It is all God's stuff and it is by His Grace that he allows us to be stewarts of his stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    If God delegated the authority to judge and to execute judgement, it was to individuals, because individuals predate governments, and only then did individuals delegate that authority to governments, something that governments tend to forget when they try to restrict the right to self-defense.
    Romans 13:1-7
    1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
    I used to live a life concerned only with what I wanted and I thought. Now I try to live as God, through his Son Jesus Christ, teaches me to live. I am not perfect at this and I fail often. I worry about things I shouldn't worry about and I do things that I know God would not have me do, but I keep trying. If I am a little better than yesterday then that is something.:)

    Perhaps some feel that I take this too seriously, but it makes me happy, I don't hurt any one and some people find my behavior useful.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 05-05-2010 at 01:00 PM.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  4. #44  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    What I don't understand is killing over the loss of material goods that can be replaced.
    which is why my position is that you make sure that he understand never to do anything like that ever again. Personally - I'm for beating the shit out of him not killing him.
    Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
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  5. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Chile is actually in pretty good shape economically, politically and socially, and Colombia managed to come back from the brink, although Obama's policies are benefitting the FARC and their patron, Hugo Chavez. Honduras is a functioning democracy (as proven by their ouster of a Chavista clone who tried to illegally extend his presidential term) and I can say from firsthand experience that Panama is in much better shape than it was under Noriega.

    Blacks actually had lower unemployment rates than whites prior to the Great Society programs, but once welfare rewarded promiscuity and eliminated the need for fathers to work to support their kids, the results were predictable. The problem isn't skin, it's culture. Cultures that value personal responsibility, education, thrift, marital fidelity and family tend to provide stability. Cultures that don't share those values tend to be violent and chaotic. Progressives hate those values, and do everything that they can to destroy them, and wherever they succeed, the result is the same. In fact, there are white communities where violence, illegitimacy and irresponsibility are as common as they are in poor black and Latino communities, but they tend not to be geographic so much as social. Look at a cross section of Hollywood stars and you will see rap sheets that rival all but the most energetic gangsters, the only difference being that the insulation of money and celebrity keep the likes of Sean Penn, Charlie Sheen, Robert Downey Jr., Roman Polanski and a host of other A-list celebrities from doing hard time.
    I don't know if you can include RDJ in this list... the guy spent a year in "Corcoran II" state Prison, which is ALOT more than any white male non-althlete celeb would ever get, and said something very interesting about that experience:

    ďI have a really interesting political point of view, and itís not always something I say too loud at dinner tables here, but you canít go from a $2,000-a-night suite at La Mirage to a penitentiary and really understand it and come out a liberal. You canít. I wouldnít wish that experience on anyone else, but it was very, very, very educational for me and has informed my proclivities and politics ever since.Ē ...
    ~QC
    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." Rudyard Kipling - (1865-1936)

    Context doesn't matter to this liberal it seems/ as long as it satisfies his godless dreams/ like monkeys throwing sh!t as castles in air/ as long as he throws/that is the extent of his care.
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  6. #46  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    Fuck you you wetback motherfucker.
    Classy. Go on demonstrating what it means to be a Real American.
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  7. #47  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    Instead of saying something this inane, dispute what I said. Is there a Latin American country that isn't a God forsaken shithole or isn't run by a dictator or some other corrupt form of government? Stop with the PC bullshit and look at the 800lb. gorilla in the room. Look at every God forsaken shithole in this world and tell me the racial makeup of those countries. Hell, look at our own country. What are the shitholes mostly? Urban areas. Shit, my own state: Newark, Camden, Jersey City, all predominantly minority. Hell, Camden has a population of 80,000+(80% of which is black/Hispanic) has the distinction of being the country's most dangerous city. Even more dangerous than L.A. or New York. So, there has got to be a correlation somewhere. I'm asking this in earnest. Why is this so? Why are the most violent gangs in this country black or Hispanic gangs? The Aryan Brotherhood has nothing on the Bloods and Crips and none has anything on MS-13. There has got to be a reason. There are poor white areas that aren't as bad as areas that are predominantly minority. But nobody wants to study this and even if they do, they're probably afraid of giving their findings because of PC bullshit.
    ACtually there's been A LOT of research done on this, for about half a century now (at least).

    Real research by real professional researchers and sociologists have examined this. There tends to be correlations between economic trouble, minorities, and crime. There are many theories on it, some better than others.

    Would you like me to cite some articles? I'm not sure if you'll be able to get to some of them without scholastic database access but any public library can help you out. I may also have some files saved here and there if you're willing to read.
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  8. #48  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    I can accept and understand that, self defense and all, but to shoot someone because they threw a rock through a window seems a bit harsh. Perhaps we don't place much value on human live any more.

    Maybe it's just me I guess...
    I'm with you. It's sad.

    You need to have a lot of negativity within you to be so willing to let the hatred spill out at anyone who breaks a window, even killing them. I hope NJCardFan finds a healthy way to deal with whatever suffering he's carrying.
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  9. #49  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    I was thinking of how someone would feel if their little brother or son threw a rock and broke someone's window. If I am to take as literal the statements of a few, I would be justified in taking out a gun and killing them. Would any one feel differently if they experienced that? I understand killing as self defence or as the punishment determined by a court of law. What I don't understand is killing over the loss of material goods that can be replaced.

    What you propose in the above statement is not often realized in actuality. Take the mafia or the street gangs of any big city. They kill each others leaders all the time but it has not ended the gangs or the killing. The killing of a ring leader would work on sensibile people but I don't think we are dealing with sensible people. I think that we are dealing with people whose feelings of vengence is stronger than the fear of retribution. Killing them all would be an option but a lot more people than me would find that a bit extreme.

    Something else I find strange is people's seeming displeasure with my opinion of pacifism. I read the New Testament and this is what I conclude from reading it. I read the words and look at the examples of those who lived out their lives in its pages. I know that people don't see things, nor are expected to, as I do but some seem a bit hostile because I have choosen to live like this. I place a high value on human life because we are all image barers. I don't think that anyone would fault me for putting their life over my own if the situation called for it, but the issue seems to arise when I put the life of someone they deem undesirable on par with theirs.

    In my opinion, God is the only one who can unerringly and rightly give death for punishment but he delegated some of that authority to the governments of the world. I don't find were he delegated any of it to me as an individual. I might be wrong about this, and I am always looking for new and better ways of understanding God's will so I am open to having my mind changed if it really matters to anyone.
    I've been studying the Bible a bit more in the past few months and I really hope that what people seem to think is "this Christian nation" may actually start living up to that name.
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  10. #50  
    CU's Tallest Midget! PoliCon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    I've been studying the Bible a bit more in the past few months and I really hope that what people seem to think is "this Christian nation" may actually start living up to that name.
    Why don't you lead the way and start by not judging people you disagree with for starters. Then you can stop advocating the shirking of our duty one to another in favor of the state doing it - and then you can stop advocating for the state to replace God as provider in peoples lives . . .
    Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
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